opethfan
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 49):

Well, the Constitution doesn't state "dudes shall not be permitted to marry dudes and dudettes shall not be permitted to marry dudettes," so the situation is quite different. One case is a determination of the federal courts to rule on particular civil rights issues (drawing parallels to the Civil War) and the other would be a direct rejection of the Constitution.
 
Mir
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 50):
Well, the Constitution doesn't state "dudes shall not be permitted to marry dudes and dudettes shall not be permitted to marry dudettes," so the situation is quite different.

It does, however, guarantee equal protection under the law. That portion was used in Loving v. Virginia, and that case has been used a precedent for this one - the situations are virtually identical. So it's very fair to ask someone who claims that states should be able to vote on whether people get equal protection or not whether states should also be able to vote on whether people get other rights granted to them by other sections of the Constitution.

-Mir
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mt99
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 44):
Considering the right own firearms is in the highest law of the land, no.
Anyway, that discussion has no place in this thread. I don't believe the last thread on firearms has been locked yet, so it can still freely be bumped.
Quoting Mir (Reply 51):
he situations are virtually identical.

That is my whole point exactly:

While Gun Rights have been declared constitutional, technically we don't "know" is gay marriage is covered under the constitution UNTIL the Supreme Court says it is.

If it is covered, then asking for a direct state vote will be exactly the same as asking for a direct vote on gun ownership.
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opethfan
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:00 pm

Well one difference is that marriage is a positive liberty while firearm ownership is a negative liberty. Marriage recognition may be justified under an equal opportunity rationale, but that is a much different ruling from a ideological point of view.

Even if they are related, the last thing a thread needs is a debate on the merits of firearm ownership.
 
mt99
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 53):
Even if they are related, the last thing a thread needs is a debate on the merits of firearm ownership.

Gay Marriage has boiled down to about the ability of of people voting on each other people's constitutional rights.

So i do think that gun right have a place in this discussion; mostly to point out to the gay marriage nay-Sayers (gun supporters most likely) - that they have to be careful what they wish for,
Step into my office, baby
 
opethfan
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 54):
Gay Marriage has boiled down to about the ability of of people voting on each other people's constitutional rights.

In many regards, yes. However marriage or wedlock is not mentioned in the US Constitution. Firearm ownership is. That means there is interpretation and leverage in play, much more so than in regards to the 2nd Amendment.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 54):
gay marriage nay-Sayers (gun supporters most likely)

I think married gay couples should be allowed to protect their marijuana plants with guns, as a Canadian parliamentary candidate once said.



Quoting mt99 (Reply 54):
So i do think that gun right have a place in this discussion;

They do, but there's no quicker way to devolve an online discussion into petty squabbling like debating the value of private firearm ownership. We should avoid that and look at a similar scenario, such as if a state wants to place limits of free speech.
 
mt99
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 55):
In many regards, yes. However marriage or wedlock is not mentioned in the US Constitution. Firearm ownership is. That means there is interpretation and leverage in play, much more so than in regards to the 2nd Amendment

Current gun ownership laws are interpretations of the constitution

In any case, how exactly it is any different? Are Supreme Court rulings "less" than if the actual word written on document? Is that what you are implying?

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 55):
I think married gay couples should be allowed to protect their marijuana plants with guns, as a Canadian parliamentary candidate once said.

Well that is fantastic.

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 55):
They do, but there's no quicker way to devolve an online discussion into petty squabbling like debating the value of private firearm ownership. We should avoid that and look at a similar scenario, such as if a state wants to place limits of free speech.

That's a fair point; but its not as relevant in this date. I don't think that any part of American society is advocating for that. However Gun ownership is current and more applicable IMHO
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scbriml
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 53):
Well one difference is that marriage is a positive liberty

I'm gonna guess you're not married?   

Marriage isn't a word, it's a sentence. In my case, 33 years and counting. I must be due for parole soon.   
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Moose135
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):
Marriage isn't a word, it's a sentence. In my case, 33 years and counting. I must be due for parole soon.

If you had killed her instead of marrying her, you'd be out of prison by now...
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:47 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):
Marriage isn't a word, it's a sentence. In my case, 33 years and counting. I must be due for parole soon.
Quoting moose135 (Reply 58):
If you had killed her instead of marrying her, you'd be out of prison by now...

That gave my wife of 51 years and counting, a real good laugh.
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seb146
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 44):
I'm deeply committed to allowing anyone else to live their life however they see fit.

Many people in this country say that but it is stunning how many people actually follow through. It is also stunning which ones say "but we don't need more laws" to counter that argument.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 54):
Gay Marriage has boiled down to about the ability of of people voting on each other people's constitutional rights.

So i do think that gun right have a place in this discussion; mostly to point out to the gay marriage nay-Sayers (gun supporters most likely) - that they have to be careful what they wish for,

I would say these are two completely different topics. While not everyone wants to be married, just like not everyone wants to own a gun, being gay is biological. Owning a gun is a choice. Also, because of NRA and gun laws, if I buy a rifle here in California and go elk hunting in Oregon, no one would bat an eye. But, if the brosband and I were to get married here in California and move to Michigan, we would be two individual men there.

That is another piece of this that the Supreme Court will decide on: if two consenting adults sign a state issued contract in one state, can it be recognized in another state without the same law?

I would cite, as precedent, that a few states allow first cousins to marry. Creepy, but stay with me. Once that paper is signed in that other state, that document is legal in the other 49 states including the couple's home state.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):
Marriage isn't a word, it's a sentence. In my case, 33 years and counting. I must be due for parole soon.

The brosband and I have been together almost 9 years and, some days, I feel the same way....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
opethfan
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:17 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 57):
Quoting moose135 (Reply 58):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 59):

Laughs all around, but I was referring to the concept of positive liberty as it pertains to having the liberty to achieve the goals one wishes to; rather than negative liberty, which is the freedom from external restriction or restraint.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
Many people in this country say that but it is stunning how many people actually follow through. It is also stunning which ones say "but we don't need more laws" to counter that argument.

"What dy'all mean? I'm cool with people being all types of White Christian, like Baptist or Lutheran. Hell, I'll even let one or two Catholics in my town if it'll keep the pinkos happy!"
 
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seb146
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 61):
"What dy'all mean? I'm cool with people being all types of White Christian, like Baptist or Lutheran. Hell, I'll even let one or two Catholics in my town if it'll keep the pinkos happy!"

Wow... I had a snarky comment to post but it probably would have been banned. Plus one, my friend. Plus one.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting moose135 (Reply 58):
If you had killed her instead of marrying her, you'd be out of prison by now...

Damn!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 59):
That gave my wife of 51 years and counting, a real good laugh.

Wow, good job. They say the first 50 years are the hardest!

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 61):
Laughs all around, but I was referring to the concept of positive liberty as it pertains to having the liberty to achieve the goals one wishes to; rather than negative liberty, which is the freedom from external restriction or restraint.

Oh yes, I know. But I couldn't resist.
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57AZ
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:06 pm

Inconceivable that same sex marriage will be found unconstitutional. The issue at hand deals with the legal aspect of marriage, not the religious aspect.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 56):
I think married gay couples should be allowed to protect their marijuana plants with guns, as a Canadian parliamentary candidate once said.

They can and should, provided that they reside in a place where same sex marriage and growing of marijuana is legal for personal use (noting that it is still a federal offense).

Frankly I see the Full Faith and Credit Clause being invoked, which will require all states to recognize same sex marriages that were performed in jurisdictions where same sex marriage is permitted. That seems to be the critical issue in the Sixth Circuit cases (the Sixth Circuit is the only court to uphold same sex marriage bans).
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LAX772LR
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 64):
The issue at hand deals with the legal aspect of marriage, not the religious aspect.

True, though you've got 2 (arguably 3) justices who don't quite seem capable of separating the two....

....but that said, Kennedy has voted in favor of gay rights just about every time he's had the opportunity to. So as long as the 4 liberals hold the line (and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they won't), this will be a done deal.
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DocLightning
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 64):
Frankly I see the Full Faith and Credit Clause being invoked

My understanding is that FF&C has never been invoked in marriage cases. Equal Protection is usually the clause.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Gay Marriage - We'll Know By June! Ussc To Decide.

Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 65):
Kennedy has voted in favor of gay rights just about every time he's had the opportunity to.

   Hold on there. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. While Kennedy has voted for gay rights, this goes beyond that scope. Before the bench is an issue of state rights, and Kennedy is perceived to be FOR state rights. DOMA was federal overreach so he voted to scrap it and he voted against repealing Prop 8 (it was Roberts who voted with the majority, and it was that the defendants lacked legal standing). It's gonna take a lot of convincing to bring Kennedy to the gay rights camp, but he and Roberts are essentially the only ones that I can see swinging either way, Alito as a last resource.

I still think the happy medium will be that states can refuse to perform same sex marriage, but must recognize marriages performed elsewhere, giving a de facto win to both sides. The problem is that if that's the case, I can see those states with "partial bans reinstated" making it more difficult for gays to get their marriage recognized (I don't know...something like you have to bring us proof that you don't have STDs...it's to ensure that you will be healthy throughout your relationship...).
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