Quoting Scipio (Reply 29): I'm not allowed to tell.

That answer is bursting at the seams with cosmic explosions of credibility.  

But at the end of the day, you don't know me. You don't know my family history, where I spend living my life, what I lived through, my experiences and how I'm tied with Ukraine and Russia more than what I'm saying here. So you making a claim to your knowledge vs. mine is just random and childish behavior more than anything else. Much like I can't comment on your knowledge because I don't know your past/present.

Anyhow, this is precisely why there is no point in contributing to these threads. It's a simple handful of the same people, with entitled, determined minds that aren't willing to learn or actually peacefully discuss. Instead it's just one-sided ranting over and over again. Stubbornness coupled with a naive nature won't get anyone anywhere.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25): show people who are actually immersed in the conflict, how truly little you really know about it.

I agree with this. I do not know Scipios knowledge or understanding of this conflict, so I am not referring to him, but in general I agree that someone may have read everything that there is to be read and studied everything there is to be studied but still not truly understand a situation they have no direct links with.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25): can assure you the media BS that you are being fed is quite manipulative

Of course its manipulative, no doubt about it. I would be incredibly surprised if it wasn't. Logically why wouldn't the news be tweaked a little to make a country/government look in better light? I don't necessarily mean outright lying but conveniently leaving out information or only reporting on certain aspects. Every single government and media outlet is guilty of this. And i'm not referring to Bobs online blog, the mass media outlets are influenced by a lot more than they would like us to believe.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20): Russian propaganda machine.

Don't you see the irony in that sentence. By using the word propaganda, you yourself are spreading propaganda. Someone knowing absolutely nothing about this conflict and Russia's media standards reading this thread and your sentence might be influenced by it and start believing all Russia's media is crap and lies without forming their own opinion. Western media is guilty of just as much 'propaganda' only they do it in a much more smarter subtle way.

After studying global politics for several years, I have come to the conclusion I want no part of it. The truth is, countries like the US are guilty of a lot more atrocities then Putin can ever do. Not because Putin is a good bloke, but because he doesn't have the sort of power the US has. I am not necessarily blaming the US, because I know that if any country, any at all held the amount of power and influence the US has, they would be doing the exact same things. Whether it is Russia or Papua New Guinea, they would be interfering where they shouldn't be and causing problems etc.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 31): Don't you see the irony in that sentence.

No, I don't. Because that is the reality. Russians are being fed a constant stream of lies by their Putin-controlled mass media.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 22): Gentlemen honor their commitments. Putin obviously is not a gentleman.

It hat case neither are Obama and Cameron.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 26): I'm not anti-Russian. How many times do I need to repeat that I studied the Russian language, lived in Russia, and had a Russian girlfriend? I'm anti-Putin, which means I'm pro-Russia. And, trust me, I know Ukraine much better than you do. And I know much better than you do what is going on in Ukraine.

Wow you had a Russian girlfriend, that means you know everything about Russia.

You know nothing more about this conflict than anyone else here, stop trying to big yourself up. It makes you look foolish.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 31): Western media is guilty of just as much 'propaganda' only they do it in a much more smarter subtle way.

That's not true. There are bad and paid for journalists on both sides. But good journalists in the West call them out. Good journalists in Russia get imprisoned or killed.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 31): I agree with this. I do not know Scipios knowledge or understanding of this conflict, so I am not referring to him, but in general I agree that someone may have read everything that there is to be read and studied everything there is to be studied but still not truly understand a situation they have no direct links with.

And someone may be right in the middle of the action and not understand what is going on, as all sides have proven, from Yanukovych to the new government, to Putin and the west.

At the end of the day that doesn't matter, and what is done is done. We have to look at the future, and clearly today the only problem is Russia's interference. Without Russia Mariupol wouldn't be bombed right now, because the rebels would have run out of ammo and men and surrendered.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32): No, I don't. Because that is the reality. Russians are being fed a constant stream of lies by their Putin-controlled mass media

As are we. We may not have a controlled media, we may be told that there is free independent press etc, but the main media that reaches the ears of the majority who have no further interest to do their own research and just suck up anything they are told follows a lot stricter boundaries than independent journos that actually care. That's one of the problems. We have been drilled with this idea that we have free speech and look at those terrible countries that don't, it is a right, it is a given, they are undemocratic etc. So much that people now blindly believe this without actually realising that this is unfortunately far from the truth.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34): That's not true. There are bad and paid for journalists on both sides. But good journalists in the West call them out. Good journalists in Russia get imprisoned or killed.

You are right of course that good journos can call them out, publish facts that may disagree with the governments stance without fear of retribution. But this is just another way we are convinced that we have free media and it must be true because it can be called out. But the thing is, the majority of people never hear this side. Ask someone who doesn't know about these things and they will just repeat the exact same thing coming from the tv at the 7pm news. The governments let these journos disagree with them and challenge them because they know that it won't reach many people and it won't cause that much damage if it did. However don't be fouled, if a journalist does happen to publish something that is particularly sensitive and would cause widespread damage if released, they will put a stop to it just as quickly as you say countries like Russia would.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 35): As are we.

Exactly. Putin is spending big money on spreading his lies throughout Europe.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 36): Exactly. Putin is spending big money on spreading his lies throughout Europe.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you think that everything we hear on our news is straight up facts? News isn't influenced at all? I see that you are an economist like me, you don't make the link between the power of the media and how it can be harnessed?

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 37): I'm not sure what you are saying.

I'm saying what I'm saying. Putin is bribing western media to spread his lies.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 38): Putin is bribing western media to spread his lies.

I have no problem whatsoever believing what you said as being true. Whether it is true or not I have no comment because I do not know, but I understand enough about politics to know that it is possible. My question to you however is this. Put any other politician from any other country in Putin's position. Would you believe that they would do something like this?

I have ill feelings to many politicians. I disagree with a lot of what higher ranking politicians do or say. But the thing is, I understand that it is necessary and to be expected. If country A invades country B and says it is because they are worried about their safety and care about them, I know perfectly well it is because they stand to gain something from it. No point saying this is unjust and a load of crap because it is the way it is and always will be. Lots of people have ill feelings towards Putin and want him gone. Guess what, he goes he will be replaced by someone exactly the same. We are just living in a period of history that will be studied in history books in the future while the leader of Pitcairn Islands is hated on and causes havoc.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 39): I have ill feelings to many politicians.

You don't understand. Putin has reached the point where he is no longer useful to Russia. He should gracefully retire, but he is incapable of doing so.

To justify his continuing hold on power, he is creating completely senseless conflicts.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 29): Just so.

Wonderful   I don't even let my 4 year old son justify something by saying "just because".
So you are saying that your conclusions are based on absolutely nothing and are strictly your opinion?
It is no wonder you cannot actually rebuff any of my points and just switch the subject. Or answer with "Russian lies", "Putin's propaganda" or something childish like that. 

Quoting Scipio (Reply 26): I'm anti-Putin, which means I'm pro-Russia.

Nah, you are very, very anti-Russian. You can do a little experiment to prove my point.
Come to Russia, go to some place that has a lot of people and start ranting about what you are ranting here. Then start a timer and count how many minutes it takes before you get a well deserved smack in the face by a random person.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20): The killing is happening by Putin's mercenaries and with Putin's weapons. You can keep on pretending otherwise, but you're fooling only yourself.

Killing is happening by the Ukranian army and volunteers with Ukranian and probably some western weapons as well as the people of Donetsk and some Russian volunteers and Ukranian weapons along with some Russian ones. Where is Putin in all of this?  

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27): only Russia can stop this madness

I would say only the Kiev government can stop this madness but they are not making any attempt to do so or even take into account the point of view of the other involved party, like yourself and Scipio actually.

That is the main problem and that is exactly why there will be no end to this conflict untill:
a) The Kiev government changes again
b) The Kiev government changes it approach to the Donbass and negotiates
c) The people of the Donbass surrender or are killed/forced to flee
d) Russia stops supporting the Donbass and they are forced to surrender and flee.
e) The rebels manage to throw Ukranian forces out of their terrirories and create a buffer zone between Ukranian territory and their territory

The only point that I can see as probable is point "a". "b" would be nice but is unlikely because they have shown themselves incapable of reaching any compromise or having any willingness to sit down and talk. Stubborn and incompetent.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 36): Exactly. Putin is spending big money on spreading his lies throughout Europe.

Which countries, we don't even get news on what's happening inUkraine anymore, nobody is interested, it's old news, face facts the average man in the street is not interested in Ukraine.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 37): I'm not sure what you are saying.

Neither is he, he's gotten all confused now that he's doing some secret agent crap for Ukraine.......or maybe he's off his meds, not a lot of what he's saying right now makes sense.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41): e) The rebels manage to throw Ukranian forces out of their terrirories and create a buffer zone between Ukranian territory and their territory

I think E is pretty close to reality right now.

I'm in St Petersburg, my taxi driver from the airport was an chatty guy, his point was if Putin stands down then what? Who takes over, there really isn't anyone that people can trust, the next most popular political party is the communists, nobody wants them to return.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 9): 1. There was no coup in Kyiv. There was a people's revolt against a kleptocratic dictator, who decided to flee to Russia rather than risk being held to account for his actions.

Sure, we'll just ignore the fact that he was democratically elected (per the OSCE observation and other international acknowledgement, the OSCE being the same organisation whose word we now hang on every time they say any attacks came from the rebel side - not that I accuse them of lying necessarily, they're probably right on both fronts, but we do all like being oh so selective about when we'll afford the organisation credibility, it seems).

Please - if you want to criticise the rebels, Russia, whoever, you go right ahead - there is plenty to criticise. Stop being so ridiculously disingenuous about the root causes here though, and the nature of what's really going on. If you think you can just casually ignore the fact a large, geographically-defined proportion of the populace are fundamentally against what happened in Kiev, and pretend that what happened in Kiev was somehow within democratic norms (which is wasn't - this is a pretender to EU membership, so waiting for the ballot box to come around would have been a better approach to realising your leader lied to you or didn't do as he said he would - let's face it, that happens a lot in democracies), then you are kidding yourself hugely. You want to ignore real, longstanding, deep, social and cultural division then fine, you keep banding around the facile labels, but you fail to understand anything about what is really going on. Perhaps introduce a bit of balance into your thoughts and stop assuming that the Ukrainian side can do no wrong, which is clearly not the case.

Personally, I just wish both sides would start putting the population first, and that includes the jerk rebels who indiscriminately peppered Mariupol with rockets just as much as it does the Ukrainian government failing to give the Red Cross permission to transport vital medicines into the east.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41): Where is Putin in all of this?

Here is NATO's assessment:


We condemn the sharp escalation of violence along the ceasefire line in eastern Ukraine by Russia-backed separatists.

This comes at great human cost to civilians. We express our condolences to the Ukrainian people for these tragic losses. Thirty civilians were killed and around a hundred were injured in the attack launched on residential areas of Mariupol. The attack was launched from territory controlled by separatists backed by Russia.

Such indiscriminate attacks are unjustified and unacceptable.

The aggressive actions and provocative statements of the separatists are in direct contradiction with the Minsk agreements.

Yet despite its repeated commitments to work for a peaceful solution, Russia continues to provide them with support, training, equipment and forces.

In recent weeks, Russia has supplied hundreds of pieces of advanced equipment, including rocket systems, heavy artillery, tanks, armored vehicles and electronic warfare systems.

We call on Russia to stop its support for the separatists immediately, to stop destabilising Ukraine and to respect its international commitments.

We urge all parties to continue all efforts without delay to achieve a peaceful solution, in full conformity with the Minsk agreements.

We reaffirm that an independent, sovereign and stable Ukraine, firmly committed to democracy and the rule of law, is key to security in the Euro-Atlantic area.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/op...nions_116862.htm?selectedLocale=en

In the never-ending series of rubbish that comes out of his mouth, Putin today labeled the Ukrainian army a "NATO legion". To which Stoltenberg responded:

As to the statement that there is a NATO legion in Ukraine, is nonsense. There is no NATO legion. The foreign forces in Ukraine are Russian. So I think that is in a way the problem. That there are Russian forces in Ukraine.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41): That is the main problem and that is exactly why there will be no end to this conflict untill:

Since this is a completely artificial conflict that was created and bankrolled by the Kremlin, it is unlikely to end until there is a change of sorts in the Kremlin. Either in Putin's mind (unlikely) or by his removal from power. The other plausible scenario is that the people of Donbass revolt against the separatists and Russians, making the conflict unsustainable for the Kremlin. To some extent, this is already happening. There are partisan attacks taking place against the separatists and occupiers within the areas that are under their control.

It is not as if Putin and the separatists have great perspectives to offer to the people of Donbass. All they have brought is misery, death, destruction, crime, and poverty.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41): The people of the Donbass surrender or are killed/forced to flee

How many people (civilians not involved in the fighting) were killed or forced to flee when the Ukrainians liberated Slovyansk? Answer: none.

This whole war has been sold by the Krelmin based on a nonexistent, invented threat.

The people of Slovyansk are quite happy to have the Ukrainian army around.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43): waiting for the ballot box to come around

It is absurd to think that a dictator who stole billions and who had killed people to hang onto power, would have allowed fair elections.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43): the fact a large, geographically-defined proportion of the populace are fundamentally against what happened in Kiev

The concerns of these people (which were partly the result of Russian propaganda) have long been overtaken by their concerns about the war. Ukrainians are pretty united these days in seeing Putin as their main enemy. That includes Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43): the Ukrainian government failing to give the Red Cross permission to transport vital medicines into the east.

That's a new one. Source?

[Edited 2015-01-26 11:38:07]

Quoting Scipio (Reply 45): It is absurd to think that a dictator who stole billions and who had killed people to hang onto power, would have allowed fair elections.

Not really, partly because you insist on calling probably the most fairly-elected President in modern Ukrainian history a dictator (though I appreciate the bar was of course set very low). But even so, violence was not the answer - and that came from all sides. If you cast your mind back a deal was reached that guaranteed elections, but this was basically just ignored by all parties in the end and quietly forgotten. It was going to happen, but violence was chosen instead.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 45): The concerns of these people (which were partly the result of Russian propaganda) have long been overtaken by their concerns about the war

Honestly, if you really think that any significant propagandising was required to encourage those concerns you really don't know the country at all. Material support is a far more relevant topic than the mythical need to persuade people in the east that they were horrified by events happening in Kiev. Those events brought things to a head, and it was always the case that so long as the apple cart wasn't too severely tipped then Ukraine would somehow muddle on together, but ultimately everyone chose a different path and we need to stop pretending it was only one side. Of course, the fact that war is now the main preoccupation of the affected population rather than politics is hardly a surprise - I would guess this applies to those of all persuasions in and around the zones of conflict.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 45): That's a new one. Source?

It is a new one - and I was appalled to read it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ne-donetsk-travel-permit-medicines

Again, I say it for the millionth time - everyone has screwed this one up, and everyone continues to screw this one up.

This is just Russia being Russia. So glad that me and mine are all out of there.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): on calling probably the most fairly-elected President in modern Ukrainian history a dictator

What else can one call someone who ordered demonstrators to be beaten up and killed, and who unleashed "Titushky" to terrorize people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky

Few people outside Ukraine seem to realize how bad Yanukovych's rule was, and how negatively it was perceived and experienced by the vast majority of Ukrainians.

Btw, the most fairly-elected President in modern Ukrainian history is Poroshenko. Yanukovych committed election fraud, but his Party of Regions apparatus was sophisticated enough to hide this fraud from international observers.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): violence was not the answer - and that came from all sides

Not really. The violent escalations came almost exclusively from the Yanukovych/Putin side, at pretty much every step along the way to where we are now.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): violence was chosen instead

The violence in Kyiv ended with Yanukovych's departure.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): If you cast your mind back a deal was reached that guaranteed elections, but this was basically just ignored by all parties in the end and quietly forgotten.

I remember that very well, as I was in Kyiv during those days. It was too little too late. Offering somewhat anticipated elections (which without any doubt would have been fraudulent) after you just had 100+ demonstrators killed? This was neither serious nor acceptable, and the EU mediators should have realized this.

This is how the deal was received on Maydan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cpyRwl-ZU

"zek" (= "the convict") refers to Yanukovych, who has served prison time twice in his young years, for robbery and assault.

And this is what was happening behind the scenes--all pillars of power abandoning Yanukovych:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/wo...ted-even-before-he-was-ousted.html

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): Honestly, if you really think that any significant propagandising was required to encourage those concerns you really don't know the country at all.

Honestly, if you really think that the Yanukovych and Putin propaganda machines played no significant role in the AntiMaydan movement and in stirring up separatist unrest in Crimea and Donbass (and other places), you really don't know the country at all. And you really never watched television in Ukraine or read a (Russian-language) Ukrainian newspaper. To some extent, the Russian propaganda in some Ukrainian mass media continues to these days (some media are still controlled by fugitive cronies of Yanukovych).

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): Again, I say it for the millionth time - everyone has screwed this one up, and everyone continues to screw this one up.

I say it for the millionth time, Putin has screwed this one up. There would have been no war in Ukraine without Putin's interference. The Maydan bloodbath may also not have happened, since Putin was pressuring Yanukovych to violently crack down on the demonstrators.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46): It is a new one - and I was appalled to read it.

They'll need to adjust the access regime. But imposing controls on movement into and out of the separatist-held territories is pretty much a necessity, given that Putin continues to try to send his agents and terrorists into Ukraine. Several bombs went off in Ukrainian cities in recent weeks.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41): Then start a timer and count how many minutes it takes before you get a well deserved smack in the face by a random person.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with beating up people.

Speaking of which, here is some footage of how Putin's friends and mercenaries treat POWs:

(warning: graphic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-gJ46pVLMo
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2...phic-warcrimes-russians-shoot.html

All of this is, of course, further raising Putin's already stellar approval ratings in Ukraine... (Ukrainians refer to him as "Putler", "maniac", "khuylo", etc.)

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41): 4 year old son

Speaking of your 4-year old son, you still haven't answered my basic question:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13): Tell me something basic: what good do you think Putin will achieve for Russia by killing and sponsoring the killing of Ukrainians?

The way things are going, your son might end up in an unmarked grave, having died in a pointless war in which a senile Putin will deny any involvement.

Today, S&P downgraded Russia's sovereign debt to junk. The rouble is at 68 to the dollar. As a result of the Mariupol tragedy, the momentum for new sanctions against Russia is growing.

Putin continues to take Russia on the road to nowhere good ...

Quoting kachum (Reply 47): This is just Russia being Russia. So glad that me and mine are all out of there.

Another great achievement of Putin: alienating the Belorussians and Khazaks, who are now very busy exercising how to neutralize "little green men".

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43): Personally, I just wish both sides would start putting the population first, and that includes the jerk rebels who indiscriminately peppered Mariupol with rockets just as much as it does the Ukrainian government failing to give the Red Cross permission to transport vital medicines into the east.