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Scipio
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Ukraine Crisis

Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:15 pm

We have been discussing the events in Ukraine in various threads. Perhaps we should have a single consolidated thread on the Ukraine crisis and its implications. Here is an attempt to start such a thread.

Today's main news is that Putin's "protection" has arrived to the (mostly Russian-speaking) inhabitants of Mariupol.

The result: at least 30 people killed, about 100 wounded, and at least 50 buildings damaged (including several schools and kindergartens--fortunately today was not a school day).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_bwzPbGrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuQjfctHLZ4

Not for sensitive viewers (explicit footage of wounded and dead people):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfGH8JXprE

Interestingly, at the time I'm writing this post, Russia's government-owned newspaper Izvestia does not seem to think that this is news worth reporting. Not a word about the Mariupol events on their website...

http://izvestia.ru/

Tells you all you need to know about who is responsible for this tragedy...

The OSCE has already confirmed that the Grad rockets that hit Mariupol were fired from separatist-controlled territory.

High time to put the "Donetsk People's Republic" and the "Luhansk People's Republic" on the list of designated terrorist organizations, and to declare Putin's Russia a state sponsor of terrorism.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:29 pm

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
High time to put the "Donetsk People's Republic" and the "Luhansk People's Republic" on the list of designated terrorist organizations, and to declare Putin's Russia a state sponsor of terrorism.

   It's also time for all countries that have the misfortune of sharing border with Russia to join NATO.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:55 am

What exactly is going on in Ukraine right now? These videos show almost a scene of urban warfare, and there is not a single piece of news I can find on the US media right now. Are these Russian backed "terrorists" or the actual Russian military causing the damage to this city? Im not easily disturbed, I can see a lot of blood and gore on TV or where ever and think nothing of it, but this is really something serious!    There are dead bodies just lying in the street, and I saw one woman in the back walking around casually with a purse thinking nothing of it. Can anyone clarify the situation? I do not speak one word of Ukrainian or Russian.

EDIT: Also, around 11:10 in the last video, who are those men walking around with the heavy rifles? Are they Ukranian or Russian?

[Edited 2015-01-24 16:58:20]
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 2):
What exactly is going on in Ukraine right now?

In a nutshell: Putin never accepted Ukraine's independence. He tried to take control of Ukraine by bribing, threatening, and blackmailing Yanukovych. The Ukrainian people revolted against Yanukovych, who fled to Russia after having 100-200 Maydan demonstrators killed. Putin then invaded and annexed Crimea, and organized unrest in the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine. His plan obviously was to grab at least about half of Ukraine. However, he completely miscalculated. He had thought that the Russian-speaking Ukrainians would invite him in, instead they fought him. Now Putin is stuck with an artificial separatist conflict in the Donbass area in eastern Ukraine that can only be sustained with massive Russian support (including regular Russian forces). The UN says that 5,000+ people have died as a result. In reality, it is at least twice that number. Among the dead are many Russian military, including conscripts.



Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 2):
EDIT: Also, around 11:10 in the last video, who are those men walking around with the heavy rifles? Are they Ukranian or Russian?

Ukrainian. The video is apparently made by a member of Ukraine's Azov volunteer regiment (which was discussed in the "Chickens coming home to roost in Moscow" thread). The Azov guys are defending Mariupol and its surroundings against the Russian terrorists.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 2):
there is not a single piece of news I can find on the US media right now.

CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/24/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html

More footage from Mariupol (warning: some of it graphic):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxZZ4I4hQ7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exJOXO2RidE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15Ruhe7v9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQOgoIU0bLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5TFXLocXBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1IGTek8_5o
http://vk.com/videos25945874?z=video25945874_171049094%2Falbum25945874

The [email protected] blogspot already has a preliminary analysis:

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/201...lrs-attack-on-mariupol-market.html

From The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...an-rebels-ukraine-mariupol-donetsk
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-dozens-die-rebels-shell-mariupol

According to Ukrainian media, among the dead is a 4-year old child. Among the wounded is a 3-year old girl who lost both of her legs. Her mother was killed, her 10-year old brother was wounded.

Thank you, Putin!
 
A332DTW
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:23 am

Tragic, just tragic. Brings back painful memories of the Yugoslav wars. Nobody's paying attention as civilians pay the price.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 2):
These videos show almost a scene of urban warfare

I don't know whether or not it's been officially declared, but that is urban warfare. It is the most ugliest and horrific thing to witness when it comes to human conflict.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:39 am

Seriously getting irritated with all of this happening in Ukraine. Why doesn't Putin stop supporting this? Leave Ukraine!!! These people have been through enough already.
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tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:12 am

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
High time to put the "Donetsk People's Republic" and the "Luhansk People's Republic" on the list of designated terrorist organizations, and to declare Putin's Russia a state sponsor of terrorism.

No problem.
Right after the United States and all participants of the invasions of Iraq, Libya and Syria get put on that list.  
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 6):
High time to put the "Donetsk People's Republic" and the "Luhansk People's Republic" on the list of designated terrorist organizations, and to declare Putin's Russia a state sponsor of terrorism.

I explained this one in a previous thread but briefly: The central Ukranian government alienated the Populations of the eastern territories and have no interest in taking into account their interests. They proved this by ignoring their demands and sending in forces back in the spring of 2014 when all the (at that time) Opposition's demand was more autonomy because they were not pleased with the coup that took place in Kiev. Kiev responded by sending in forces. Donetsk and Lugkhansk responded by forming armed militias to fight Kiev off.

Russia is probably providing material support to the rebels now and in my opinion, rightfully so. Help level the playing field so to say.

Besides that, it's pretty two-faced for the west to accuse Russia of providing support to the rebels after the mess the west created in Iraq, Libya and Syria.

If you want to play ball, let's use one set of rules and not "We can do this, but you can't." and not whine and moan when someone else decides to break the rules just like you just did.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:25 am

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):

High time to put the "Donetsk People's Republic" and the "Luhansk People's Republic" on the list of designated terrorist organizations, and to declare Putin's Russia a state sponsor of terrorism.

Nobody is going to do that because you'd have to do the same to the US for initially supplying and supporting ISIL and and and ............the list is too long to mention

Quoting Scipio (Reply 3):
According to Ukrainian media, among the dead is a 4-year old child. Among the wounded is a 3-year old girl who lost both of her legs. Her mother was killed, her 10-year old brother was wounded.

Thank you, Putin!

Cry me a river, this is a war, people get killed in wars unfortunately including children, like the Palestinian kids playing football on the beach which the IDF slaughtered last year.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 7):
Russia is probably providing material support to the rebels now and in my opinion, rightfully so. Help level the playing field so to say.

Why not all fair in love and war, plus the west have been supplying Ukraine.

http://u-96.livejournal.com/4043057.html

Quoting Scipio (Reply 3):
More footage from Mariupol (warning: some of it graphic):

And here's some of Donetsk caused by Ukrainian govt shelling. It's a war people get killed, it's happening on both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pca5DPKDEEo&x-yt-ts=1421828030&x-yt-cl=84411374
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:06 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 7):
I explained this one in a previous thread but briefly: The central Ukranian government alienated the Populations of the eastern territories and have no interest in taking into account their interests. They proved this by ignoring their demands and sending in forces back in the spring of 2014 when all the (at that time) Opposition's demand was more autonomy because they were not pleased with the coup that took place in Kiev. Kiev responded by sending in forces. Donetsk and Lugkhansk responded by forming armed militias to fight Kiev off.

Thank you for parroting the Russian propaganda machine's version of "history".

The reality is:

1. There was no coup in Kyiv. There was a people's revolt against a kleptocratic dictator, who decided to flee to Russia rather than risk being held to account for his actions.
2. The Ukrainian government has repeatedly offered decentralization of power, but the separatists/Russians are not interested in this. They have proven this with their disregard for the Minsk agreements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol
3. The people of eastern Ukraine had their grievances, but they didn't want a war. Russia's meddling has turned this into a bloody conflict in which the people who are suffering are, for the most part, Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians. The separatists do not enjoy broad support among these people, which is why they are resorting to terror.
4. Kyiv was very slow to respond to the insurgency. It only sent in forces after the separatists, spearheaded by Russian mercenaries and "volunteers", started murdering people.


Btw, one of these Russians, Igor Girkin ("Strelkov"), just gave an interview in which he explained how he and other "rebels" forced the Crimean parliament at gunpoint to vote for seceding from Ukraine and joining Russia. Russian democracy at work...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aelwn_UfeN0
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 9):
1. There was no coup in Kyiv. There was a people's revolt against a kleptocratic dictator, who decided to flee to Russia rather than risk being held to account for his actions.
2. The Ukrainian government has repeatedly offered decentralization of power, but the separatists/Russians are not interested in this. They have proven this with their disregard for the Minsk agreements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol
3. The people of eastern Ukraine had their grievances, but they didn't want a war. Russia's meddling has turned this into a bloody conflict in which the people who are suffering are, for the most part, Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians. The separatists do not enjoy broad support among these people, which is why they are resorting to terror.
4. Kyiv was very slow to respond to the insurgency. It only sent in forces after the separatists, spearheaded by Russian mercenaries and "volunteers", started murdering people.

1) We've been over this. It was a coup d'etat - The sudden overthrow of a government, differing from a revolution by being carried out by a small group of people who replace only the leading figures.
You had a relatively small group of protestors replace some figures of the current government (which ended up being just as kleptocratic and at the same time more shortsighted than the previous)

A revolution is: A political upheaval in a government or nation state characterized by great change.
The removal and replacement of a government.

So where the government is replaced, not some members of this government, but an entire change. Or where you have a change of political system. For example the American Revolution - transformation from a colony to a presidential republic, Russian revolution - asbolute monarchy to parliamentary republic. Get it? Going from presidential republic to a presidential republic minus some government figures isn't a revolution.
If you show me an animal with a tail, fur and one that says "meow", I am going to be inclined to call it a cat. If you want to call it a dog, go ahead, it is humorous 

2) They offered too little and too late. It started with appointing bogus oligarch governors (wasn't the whole idea of the coup to move them further from power?) to offering them a "temporary status" with more autonomy which we both know would have been revoked as soon as Kiev got the uprising under control. Even the Minsk protocol that you quote was never implemented, it was promised but nothing actually came out of it.
Regardless, everything that was offered came too late. The east asked for more autonomy back in March-April, that was met with military force and the autonomy was offered by Kiev in August when that was no longer their demand. At that time their demand became independence.

3) They had their grievances but being ignored and then having forces sent in when they did the exact same thing that protestors in Kiev did (taking over Government buildings and such) made things irreversably worse.

4) Kiev was not too slow to respond to the insurgency. They just took the wrong actions. Instead of sending in forces they should have sat down and talked when they still had the chance. Or did they really think that they can come to power by force, occupy government buildings, forming militias in Kiev and the people of Donetsk and Lukhansk are not allowed do? 
Nail in the coffin right there. I've said it before numerous times. When in a conflict one party decides to start playing by new rules, it is stupid to expect the other party to continue playing by the old rules.

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 8):
Why not all fair in love and war, plus the west have been supplying Ukraine.

Good point. Plus in the same situation several years back in Libya the west moved to take direct action in the conflict with airstrikes. So Kiev should be thanking Russia that we don't copy the west's actions to the letter. Otherwise Poroshenko would be dead in a ditch somewhere like Ghadaffi.

[Edited 2015-01-25 03:50:54]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 7):
Russia is probably providing material support to the rebels now and in my opinion, rightfully so. Help level the playing field so to say.

I'm sure you would have agreed with western support for rebel Chechens, to "level the playing field" ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
I'm sure you would have agreed with western support for rebel Chechens, to "level the playing field" ?

Who said there was no support?! You don't remember all those whining "human rights" agencies, western media and western leaders who were supporting the Chechens with at least media and political support? Even after September 11 the support continued. The UK is harbouring a terrorist or two to this day.
I would not be suprised if we found out that they were supported financially as well before 9/11.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:59 pm

Some more footage from Mariupol, showing the aftermath of yesterday's shelling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q99XhFNvfZo

And some good pictures from the new terminal of Donetsk Airport, which the Ukrainian Cyborgs defended for 242 days against the Russian terrorists:

http://nvua.net/project/nash-stalingrad.html

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
Who said there was no support?! You don't remember all those whining "human rights" agencies, western media and western leaders who were supporting the Chechens with at least media and political support?

Yes, western governments sent tanks, mercenaries, artillery, "humanitarian convoys" etc. to the Chechens' aid  

It is quite disingenuous, not to say absurd, to compare the activities of some western NGO's in Chechnya with what Putin is doing in Donbass. As disingenuous as your false comparisons with the western-led interventions in Libya, Syria and Iraq (which, except in the case of Iraq, were not "invasions").

Quoting tu204 (Reply 10):
it is humorous 

Indeed, but not in the way you see it. Some other terms also come to mind.

Tell me something basic: what good do you think Putin will achieve for Russia by killing and sponsoring the killing of Ukrainians?

Do you think Putin has many fans left in Mariupol?

[Edited 2015-01-25 11:34:02]
 
A332DTW
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:40 pm

Not to open a can of worms, but isn't the U.S. obligated in defending Ukraine's territorial integrity after Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal? Or did that treaty not specify such protection?
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
And some good pictures from the new terminal of Donetsk Airport, which the Ukrainian Cyborgs defended for 242 days against the Russian terrorists:

bigoted much?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
Some more footage from Mariupol, showing the aftermath of yesterday's shelling:

I can't be bothered matching you photo for photo because that pathetic, but there are just as many images of the other side blown to bits, and pregnant women dead on a desk. You just don't appear to grasp that this is a war.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
And some good pictures from the new terminal of Donetsk Airport, which the Ukrainian Cyborgs defended for 242 days against the Russian terrorists:

We must forget the units which Kiev sent in to retake the airport who refused and deserted.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 14):
Not to open a can of worms, but isn't the U.S. obligated in defending Ukraine's territorial integrity after Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal? Or did that treaty not specify such protection?

Here is the text of the Budapest Memorandum, which Russia is blatantly violating:

Budapest, 5 December 1994

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

Confirm the following:

1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

5. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

6. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

Signed in four copies having equal validity in the English, Russian and Ukrainian languages.



http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukrain..._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes..._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 14):
Not to open a can of worms, but isn't the U.S. obligated in defending Ukraine's territorial integrity after Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal? Or did that treaty not specify such protection?

It wasn't a treaty, it was a memorandum. Simply put, two or more parties saying we agree to this without any actual guarantees or sanctions for breaking the agreement. So to answer your question, no. Nobody has any obligations.
A memorandum is a couple guys drinking at a bar and one saying to the other, "I will help you fix your car tomorrow." Just look at memorandums of intent that airlines make to manufacturers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes..._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
As disingenuous as your false comparisons with the western-led interventions in Libya, Syria and Iraq (which, except in the case of Iraq, were not "invasions").

You are right. 

On one side you have a direct and declared military confrontation and military action against targets in a sovreign country and in the other you have intelligence, training and possibly material support. I certainly see a difference   .
That is why I said that Kiev should be thanking god that Russia didn't decide to do what the west did with Libya and Syria and just bomb the hell out of them.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
Do you think Putin has many fans left in Mariupol?

I don't know or care, but you still have the option of joining in on the fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMiG3lgeL_8
See, even if you don't know Ukranian there are plenty of foreigners you can make friends with  
Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
Tell me something basic: what good do you think Putin will achieve for Russia by killing and sponsoring the killing of Ukrainians?

Grow up. Ukranians are doing a good enough job of killing Ukranians that Putin doesn't have to do anything even if he wanted.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
A332DTW
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:16 pm

I'll admit I don't study too many political documents, but I remember reading about it in an article a couple months ago. So in other words it was just an incentive for Ukraine to disband its nuclear weapons, an incentive that in reallity was not really genuine.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 16):

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

You do realise that memorandums are not binding, if it were actually a binding document it would be a treaty, it's not.

Quote:
The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention. According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine." In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.

Basically it's a toothless document which really doesn't guarantee anything except feel-good factor. It's now fairly obvious to all the US and UK aren't going to shed any blood over Ukraine, the country just isn't worth dying for.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 17):
even if you don't know Ukranian

You still haven't caught on to the fact that I know and Ukrainian and Russian? You're a bit slow, I must say.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 17):
I don't know or care

We already know that you don't care about Ukraine or its people.

Not sure what your "evidence" is supposed to prove. It's the usual quality of "evidence" coming from the Russian propaganda machine.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 17):
Grow up. Ukranians are doing a good enough job of killing Ukranians that Putin doesn't have to do anything even if he wanted.

The killing is happening by Putin's mercenaries and with Putin's weapons. You can keep on pretending otherwise, but you're fooling only yourself.

You haven't answered my basic question:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
Tell me something basic: what good do you think Putin will achieve for Russia by killing and sponsoring the killing of Ukrainians?


On another note:

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 19):
You do realise that memorandums are not binding,

Since, by your own admission in the "Chickens Coming Home To Roost In Moscow" thread, you don't care about Ukraine and you post in Ukraine-related threads only because you like arguing with people like me (who do care), I will try hard to ignore all the uninformed nonsense and provocations that you post.

It is unfortunate that a.net does not offer the option of disrespecting a member...

[Edited 2015-01-25 12:34:18]

[Edited 2015-01-25 12:34:56]
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):

Since, by your own admission in the "Chickens Coming Home To Roost In Moscow" thread, you don't care about Ukraine and you post in Ukraine-related threads only because you like arguing with people like me (who do care), I will try hard to ignore all the uninformed nonsense and provocations that you post.

Besides all the blah blah written above by you, and since you're not disputing what I wrote you must agree with me. A memorandum isn't worth much at all and as should now be obvious to you, the US and UK are not rushing to defend Ukraine, this was not a defence treaty if it was we'd be having a real shooting war right not not this messy little civil war.

The Budapest Memorandum means nothing, it's worth no more than the paper it was written on. It was written to give Ukraine a sense of safety but with the UK, US and Russia knowing that if the poop hit the fan they were not obligated to militarily intervene, as we can see they haven't. France and China also signed similar memo's and they've done nothing either.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):

It is unfortunate that a.net does not offer the option of disrespecting a member...

I can't say I hold you in high esteem either.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:25 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 18):
I'll admit I don't study too many political documents, but I remember reading about it in an article a couple months ago. So in other words it was just an incentive for Ukraine to disband its nuclear weapons, an incentive that in reallity was not really genuine.

Gentlemen honor their commitments. Putin obviously is not a gentleman.

Here is what they think about him in Prague:

http://www.facebook.com/EuroMaydan/p...29/756403321122674/?type=1&theater

A pertinent tweet:

http://twitter.com/noclador/status/559308840819494912/photo/1
 
Flighty
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:48 pm

From our perspective, there is not much we can do. We can't start bombing Putin's forces. There was no formal alliance between the USA and Ukraine. As such, Ukraine was subject to whatever the regional balance of power dictates.

If the USA wanted to take half of Chihuahua province in Mexico (or Iraq), there is not a lot Russia could do about it. Kosovo is another example of the same "enhanced democratic" principle Putin used to take Crimea. If there were an English speaking territory we wanted to take over, we would probably just do it. Who is going to stop us?

Who is going to stop Putin? Nobody, unless he starts a holocaust or something so evil that we must contemplate WW3.

Each small country must have a big country protector. Countries within Russia/China/USA spheres of influence that are not supported by said superpowers, are subject to the decisions of the superpower including "regime change." The largest practitioner of this is the USA.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
If the USA wanted to take half of Chihuahua province in Mexico (or Iraq), there is not a lot Russia could do about it.

The Mexicans (or Iraqis) would fight back, as the Ukrainians are doing.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 22):

I'm not contributing to these threads since it's pointless arguing against people who think they have a good understanding of both sides of the conflict yet only consistently present their thoughts and ideas one-sidedly.

As a Russian, I am very far from agreeing with Putin and everything he has been up to in government the past few years, but I must say that it's very scary reading how strongly some members here are backing the faulty Ukrainian government (Russia has major faults as well, don't you worry).

Scipio, your constant pro-Ukrainian and anti-Russian rants, especially with the examples you provide show people who are actually immersed in the conflict, how truly little you really know about it. It seems you have no common knowledge and understanding of the complex cultural and political interdependence of the two nations at hand, nations that used to be ONE. With close family on both the Ukrainian and Russian sides, I'm exposed to Kiev and Moscow on a daily basis, and can assure you the media BS that you are being fed is quite manipulative. People that don't come from either of the countries will never understand the ties that bring the two nations together (and what is currently driving them so far apart).

As someone who us taking a neutral stance on this horrific conflict that is so horribly affecting my own family (some members of my family have just fled from Donetsk and Lugansk to take refuge in Moscow), I urge you to please stop for a moment and take a deeper dive into understanding what is happening here beyond what you see on YouTube and media sources. Learn why this is happening, talk to both sides - Russians living in Ukraine and Ukrainians living in Russia would be a great place to start. This conflict is much more elaborate than a two-sided battle, and as much as one would think this is strictly a battle between two countries, its scope extends way outwards to the wants and needs of other Western nations.

In any case, all I really want out of this is for Russia and Ukraine to both step out to the plate and take responsibility in order to provide citizens of both countries the peace they deserve. The conflict most strongly affects the regular folk, and they don't deserve to be tied up in this mess where western nations are engaging in a massive "who can piss further" contest.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
Scipio, your constant pro-Ukrainian and anti-Russian rants, especially with the examples you provide show people who are actually immersed in the conflict, how truly little you really know about it.

I'm not anti-Russian. How many times do I need to repeat that I studied the Russian language, lived in Russia, and had a Russian girlfriend?

I'm anti-Putin, which means I'm pro-Russia.

And, trust me, I know Ukraine much better than you do. And I know much better than you do what is going on in Ukraine.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 18):
I'll admit I don't study too many political documents, but I remember reading about it in an article a couple months ago. So in other words it was just an incentive for Ukraine to disband its nuclear weapons, an incentive that in reallity was not really genuine.

It's also an incentive for many countries to get nuclear weapons and to never again sign such documents. I predict nuclear proliferation to ensue in the next decade.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
We can't start bombing Putin's forces. There was no formal alliance between the USA and Ukraine.

You can make an alliance now. Putin denies any involvement inside Ukraine (outside Crimea) so you can bomb in Eastern Ukraine.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
In any case, all I really want out of this is for Russia and Ukraine to both step out to the plate and take responsibility in order to provide citizens of both countries the peace they deserve.

Russia has invaded Ukraine. Ukraine has invaded no country. Ukraine can't do anything other than defend itself, only Russia can stop this madness. You're saying both sides are suffering but nobody in Russia is suffering. Only Ukrainians, and Russians that choose to go in Ukraine (or are forced by Putin, I don't know).

I don't know any Russians or Ukrainians, I take a side from what I'm seeing, basic facts. History is complicated, responsibilities are complicated, but the facts on the ground are quite simple, and not disputed.

There may have been a civil war in Ukraine without Russian intervention, but we'll never know, because Russia was intervening long before anything happened.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 26):
And, trust me, I know Ukraine much better than you do. And I know much better than you do what is going on in Ukraine.

Funny. How so?
 
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 28):
Funny. How so?

Just so.



[Edited 2015-01-25 14:47:27]
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 29):
I'm not allowed to tell.

That answer is bursting at the seams with cosmic explosions of credibility.  

But at the end of the day, you don't know me. You don't know my family history, where I spend living my life, what I lived through, my experiences and how I'm tied with Ukraine and Russia more than what I'm saying here. So you making a claim to your knowledge vs. mine is just random and childish behavior more than anything else. Much like I can't comment on your knowledge because I don't know your past/present.

Anyhow, this is precisely why there is no point in contributing to these threads. It's a simple handful of the same people, with entitled, determined minds that aren't willing to learn or actually peacefully discuss. Instead it's just one-sided ranting over and over again. Stubbornness coupled with a naive nature won't get anyone anywhere.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
show people who are actually immersed in the conflict, how truly little you really know about it.

I agree with this. I do not know Scipios knowledge or understanding of this conflict, so I am not referring to him, but in general I agree that someone may have read everything that there is to be read and studied everything there is to be studied but still not truly understand a situation they have no direct links with.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
can assure you the media BS that you are being fed is quite manipulative

Of course its manipulative, no doubt about it. I would be incredibly surprised if it wasn't. Logically why wouldn't the news be tweaked a little to make a country/government look in better light? I don't necessarily mean outright lying but conveniently leaving out information or only reporting on certain aspects. Every single government and media outlet is guilty of this. And i'm not referring to Bobs online blog, the mass media outlets are influenced by a lot more than they would like us to believe.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):
Russian propaganda machine.

Don't you see the irony in that sentence. By using the word propaganda, you yourself are spreading propaganda. Someone knowing absolutely nothing about this conflict and Russia's media standards reading this thread and your sentence might be influenced by it and start believing all Russia's media is crap and lies without forming their own opinion. Western media is guilty of just as much 'propaganda' only they do it in a much more smarter subtle way.

After studying global politics for several years, I have come to the conclusion I want no part of it. The truth is, countries like the US are guilty of a lot more atrocities then Putin can ever do. Not because Putin is a good bloke, but because he doesn't have the sort of power the US has. I am not necessarily blaming the US, because I know that if any country, any at all held the amount of power and influence the US has, they would be doing the exact same things. Whether it is Russia or Papua New Guinea, they would be interfering where they shouldn't be and causing problems etc.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 31):
Don't you see the irony in that sentence.

No, I don't. Because that is the reality. Russians are being fed a constant stream of lies by their Putin-controlled mass media.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 22):


Gentlemen honor their commitments. Putin obviously is not a gentleman.

It hat case neither are Obama and Cameron.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 26):

I'm not anti-Russian. How many times do I need to repeat that I studied the Russian language, lived in Russia, and had a Russian girlfriend?

I'm anti-Putin, which means I'm pro-Russia.

And, trust me, I know Ukraine much better than you do. And I know much better than you do what is going on in Ukraine.

Wow you had a Russian girlfriend, that means you know everything about Russia.

You know nothing more about this conflict than anyone else here, stop trying to big yourself up. It makes you look foolish.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 31):
Western media is guilty of just as much 'propaganda' only they do it in a much more smarter subtle way.

That's not true. There are bad and paid for journalists on both sides. But good journalists in the West call them out. Good journalists in Russia get imprisoned or killed.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 31):
I agree with this. I do not know Scipios knowledge or understanding of this conflict, so I am not referring to him, but in general I agree that someone may have read everything that there is to be read and studied everything there is to be studied but still not truly understand a situation they have no direct links with.

And someone may be right in the middle of the action and not understand what is going on, as all sides have proven, from Yanukovych to the new government, to Putin and the west.

At the end of the day that doesn't matter, and what is done is done. We have to look at the future, and clearly today the only problem is Russia's interference. Without Russia Mariupol wouldn't be bombed right now, because the rebels would have run out of ammo and men and surrendered.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:31 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
No, I don't. Because that is the reality. Russians are being fed a constant stream of lies by their Putin-controlled mass media

As are we. We may not have a controlled media, we may be told that there is free independent press etc, but the main media that reaches the ears of the majority who have no further interest to do their own research and just suck up anything they are told follows a lot stricter boundaries than independent journos that actually care. That's one of the problems. We have been drilled with this idea that we have free speech and look at those terrible countries that don't, it is a right, it is a given, they are undemocratic etc. So much that people now blindly believe this without actually realising that this is unfortunately far from the truth.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
That's not true. There are bad and paid for journalists on both sides. But good journalists in the West call them out. Good journalists in Russia get imprisoned or killed.

You are right of course that good journos can call them out, publish facts that may disagree with the governments stance without fear of retribution. But this is just another way we are convinced that we have free media and it must be true because it can be called out. But the thing is, the majority of people never hear this side. Ask someone who doesn't know about these things and they will just repeat the exact same thing coming from the tv at the 7pm news. The governments let these journos disagree with them and challenge them because they know that it won't reach many people and it won't cause that much damage if it did. However don't be fouled, if a journalist does happen to publish something that is particularly sensitive and would cause widespread damage if released, they will put a stop to it just as quickly as you say countries like Russia would.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 35):
As are we.

Exactly. Putin is spending big money on spreading his lies throughout Europe.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 36):
Exactly. Putin is spending big money on spreading his lies throughout Europe.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you think that everything we hear on our news is straight up facts? News isn't influenced at all? I see that you are an economist like me, you don't make the link between the power of the media and how it can be harnessed?
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 37):
I'm not sure what you are saying.

I'm saying what I'm saying. Putin is bribing western media to spread his lies.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:12 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 38):
Putin is bribing western media to spread his lies.

I have no problem whatsoever believing what you said as being true. Whether it is true or not I have no comment because I do not know, but I understand enough about politics to know that it is possible. My question to you however is this. Put any other politician from any other country in Putin's position. Would you believe that they would do something like this?

I have ill feelings to many politicians. I disagree with a lot of what higher ranking politicians do or say. But the thing is, I understand that it is necessary and to be expected. If country A invades country B and says it is because they are worried about their safety and care about them, I know perfectly well it is because they stand to gain something from it. No point saying this is unjust and a load of crap because it is the way it is and always will be. Lots of people have ill feelings towards Putin and want him gone. Guess what, he goes he will be replaced by someone exactly the same. We are just living in a period of history that will be studied in history books in the future while the leader of Pitcairn Islands is hated on and causes havoc.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 39):
I have ill feelings to many politicians.

You don't understand. Putin has reached the point where he is no longer useful to Russia. He should gracefully retire, but he is incapable of doing so.

To justify his continuing hold on power, he is creating completely senseless conflicts.
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:12 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 29):
Just so.

Wonderful   I don't even let my 4 year old son justify something by saying "just because".
So you are saying that your conclusions are based on absolutely nothing and are strictly your opinion?
It is no wonder you cannot actually rebuff any of my points and just switch the subject. Or answer with "Russian lies", "Putin's propaganda" or something childish like that. 
Quoting Scipio (Reply 26):
I'm anti-Putin, which means I'm pro-Russia.

Nah, you are very, very anti-Russian. You can do a little experiment to prove my point.
Come to Russia, go to some place that has a lot of people and start ranting about what you are ranting here. Then start a timer and count how many minutes it takes before you get a well deserved smack in the face by a random person.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):
The killing is happening by Putin's mercenaries and with Putin's weapons. You can keep on pretending otherwise, but you're fooling only yourself.

Killing is happening by the Ukranian army and volunteers with Ukranian and probably some western weapons as well as the people of Donetsk and some Russian volunteers and Ukranian weapons along with some Russian ones. Where is Putin in all of this?  
Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
only Russia can stop this madness

I would say only the Kiev government can stop this madness but they are not making any attempt to do so or even take into account the point of view of the other involved party, like yourself and Scipio actually.

That is the main problem and that is exactly why there will be no end to this conflict untill:
a) The Kiev government changes again
b) The Kiev government changes it approach to the Donbass and negotiates
c) The people of the Donbass surrender or are killed/forced to flee
d) Russia stops supporting the Donbass and they are forced to surrender and flee.
e) The rebels manage to throw Ukranian forces out of their terrirories and create a buffer zone between Ukranian territory and their territory

The only point that I can see as probable is point "a". "b" would be nice but is unlikely because they have shown themselves incapable of reaching any compromise or having any willingness to sit down and talk. Stubborn and incompetent.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 36):
Exactly. Putin is spending big money on spreading his lies throughout Europe.

Which countries, we don't even get news on what's happening inUkraine anymore, nobody is interested, it's old news, face facts the average man in the street is not interested in Ukraine.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 37):
I'm not sure what you are saying.

Neither is he, he's gotten all confused now that he's doing some secret agent crap for Ukraine.......or maybe he's off his meds, not a lot of what he's saying right now makes sense.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
e) The rebels manage to throw Ukranian forces out of their terrirories and create a buffer zone between Ukranian territory and their territory

I think E is pretty close to reality right now.

I'm in St Petersburg, my taxi driver from the airport was an chatty guy, his point was if Putin stands down then what? Who takes over, there really isn't anyone that people can trust, the next most popular political party is the communists, nobody wants them to return.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 9):
1. There was no coup in Kyiv. There was a people's revolt against a kleptocratic dictator, who decided to flee to Russia rather than risk being held to account for his actions.

Sure, we'll just ignore the fact that he was democratically elected (per the OSCE observation and other international acknowledgement, the OSCE being the same organisation whose word we now hang on every time they say any attacks came from the rebel side - not that I accuse them of lying necessarily, they're probably right on both fronts, but we do all like being oh so selective about when we'll afford the organisation credibility, it seems).

Please - if you want to criticise the rebels, Russia, whoever, you go right ahead - there is plenty to criticise. Stop being so ridiculously disingenuous about the root causes here though, and the nature of what's really going on. If you think you can just casually ignore the fact a large, geographically-defined proportion of the populace are fundamentally against what happened in Kiev, and pretend that what happened in Kiev was somehow within democratic norms (which is wasn't - this is a pretender to EU membership, so waiting for the ballot box to come around would have been a better approach to realising your leader lied to you or didn't do as he said he would - let's face it, that happens a lot in democracies), then you are kidding yourself hugely. You want to ignore real, longstanding, deep, social and cultural division then fine, you keep banding around the facile labels, but you fail to understand anything about what is really going on. Perhaps introduce a bit of balance into your thoughts and stop assuming that the Ukrainian side can do no wrong, which is clearly not the case.

Personally, I just wish both sides would start putting the population first, and that includes the jerk rebels who indiscriminately peppered Mariupol with rockets just as much as it does the Ukrainian government failing to give the Red Cross permission to transport vital medicines into the east.
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
Where is Putin in all of this?  

Here is NATO's assessment:


We condemn the sharp escalation of violence along the ceasefire line in eastern Ukraine by Russia-backed separatists.

This comes at great human cost to civilians. We express our condolences to the Ukrainian people for these tragic losses. Thirty civilians were killed and around a hundred were injured in the attack launched on residential areas of Mariupol. The attack was launched from territory controlled by separatists backed by Russia.

Such indiscriminate attacks are unjustified and unacceptable.

The aggressive actions and provocative statements of the separatists are in direct contradiction with the Minsk agreements.

Yet despite its repeated commitments to work for a peaceful solution, Russia continues to provide them with support, training, equipment and forces.

In recent weeks, Russia has supplied hundreds of pieces of advanced equipment, including rocket systems, heavy artillery, tanks, armored vehicles and electronic warfare systems.

We call on Russia to stop its support for the separatists immediately, to stop destabilising Ukraine and to respect its international commitments.

We urge all parties to continue all efforts without delay to achieve a peaceful solution, in full conformity with the Minsk agreements.

We reaffirm that an independent, sovereign and stable Ukraine, firmly committed to democracy and the rule of law, is key to security in the Euro-Atlantic area.


http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/op...nions_116862.htm?selectedLocale=en

In the never-ending series of rubbish that comes out of his mouth, Putin today labeled the Ukrainian army a "NATO legion". To which Stoltenberg responded:

As to the statement that there is a NATO legion in Ukraine, is nonsense. There is no NATO legion. The foreign forces in Ukraine are Russian. So I think that is in a way the problem. That there are Russian forces in Ukraine.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
That is the main problem and that is exactly why there will be no end to this conflict untill:

Since this is a completely artificial conflict that was created and bankrolled by the Kremlin, it is unlikely to end until there is a change of sorts in the Kremlin. Either in Putin's mind (unlikely) or by his removal from power. The other plausible scenario is that the people of Donbass revolt against the separatists and Russians, making the conflict unsustainable for the Kremlin. To some extent, this is already happening. There are partisan attacks taking place against the separatists and occupiers within the areas that are under their control.

It is not as if Putin and the separatists have great perspectives to offer to the people of Donbass. All they have brought is misery, death, destruction, crime, and poverty.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
The people of the Donbass surrender or are killed/forced to flee

How many people (civilians not involved in the fighting) were killed or forced to flee when the Ukrainians liberated Slovyansk? Answer: none.

This whole war has been sold by the Krelmin based on a nonexistent, invented threat.

The people of Slovyansk are quite happy to have the Ukrainian army around.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
waiting for the ballot box to come around

It is absurd to think that a dictator who stole billions and who had killed people to hang onto power, would have allowed fair elections.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
the fact a large, geographically-defined proportion of the populace are fundamentally against what happened in Kiev

The concerns of these people (which were partly the result of Russian propaganda) have long been overtaken by their concerns about the war. Ukrainians are pretty united these days in seeing Putin as their main enemy. That includes Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
the Ukrainian government failing to give the Red Cross permission to transport vital medicines into the east.

That's a new one. Source?

[Edited 2015-01-26 11:38:07]
 
RussianJet
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 45):
It is absurd to think that a dictator who stole billions and who had killed people to hang onto power, would have allowed fair elections.

Not really, partly because you insist on calling probably the most fairly-elected President in modern Ukrainian history a dictator (though I appreciate the bar was of course set very low). But even so, violence was not the answer - and that came from all sides. If you cast your mind back a deal was reached that guaranteed elections, but this was basically just ignored by all parties in the end and quietly forgotten. It was going to happen, but violence was chosen instead.
Quoting Scipio (Reply 45):
The concerns of these people (which were partly the result of Russian propaganda) have long been overtaken by their concerns about the war

Honestly, if you really think that any significant propagandising was required to encourage those concerns you really don't know the country at all. Material support is a far more relevant topic than the mythical need to persuade people in the east that they were horrified by events happening in Kiev. Those events brought things to a head, and it was always the case that so long as the apple cart wasn't too severely tipped then Ukraine would somehow muddle on together, but ultimately everyone chose a different path and we need to stop pretending it was only one side. Of course, the fact that war is now the main preoccupation of the affected population rather than politics is hardly a surprise - I would guess this applies to those of all persuasions in and around the zones of conflict.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 45):
That's a new one. Source?

It is a new one - and I was appalled to read it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ne-donetsk-travel-permit-medicines

Again, I say it for the millionth time - everyone has screwed this one up, and everyone continues to screw this one up.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
kachum
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm

This is just Russia being Russia. So glad that me and mine are all out of there.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis

Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
on calling probably the most fairly-elected President in modern Ukrainian history a dictator

What else can one call someone who ordered demonstrators to be beaten up and killed, and who unleashed "Titushky" to terrorize people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky

Few people outside Ukraine seem to realize how bad Yanukovych's rule was, and how negatively it was perceived and experienced by the vast majority of Ukrainians.

Btw, the most fairly-elected President in modern Ukrainian history is Poroshenko. Yanukovych committed election fraud, but his Party of Regions apparatus was sophisticated enough to hide this fraud from international observers.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
violence was not the answer - and that came from all sides

Not really. The violent escalations came almost exclusively from the Yanukovych/Putin side, at pretty much every step along the way to where we are now.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
violence was chosen instead

The violence in Kyiv ended with Yanukovych's departure.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
If you cast your mind back a deal was reached that guaranteed elections, but this was basically just ignored by all parties in the end and quietly forgotten.

I remember that very well, as I was in Kyiv during those days. It was too little too late. Offering somewhat anticipated elections (which without any doubt would have been fraudulent) after you just had 100+ demonstrators killed? This was neither serious nor acceptable, and the EU mediators should have realized this.

This is how the deal was received on Maydan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cpyRwl-ZU

"zek" (= "the convict") refers to Yanukovych, who has served prison time twice in his young years, for robbery and assault.

And this is what was happening behind the scenes--all pillars of power abandoning Yanukovych:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/wo...ted-even-before-he-was-ousted.html

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
Honestly, if you really think that any significant propagandising was required to encourage those concerns you really don't know the country at all.

Honestly, if you really think that the Yanukovych and Putin propaganda machines played no significant role in the AntiMaydan movement and in stirring up separatist unrest in Crimea and Donbass (and other places), you really don't know the country at all. And you really never watched television in Ukraine or read a (Russian-language) Ukrainian newspaper. To some extent, the Russian propaganda in some Ukrainian mass media continues to these days (some media are still controlled by fugitive cronies of Yanukovych).

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
Again, I say it for the millionth time - everyone has screwed this one up, and everyone continues to screw this one up.

I say it for the millionth time, Putin has screwed this one up. There would have been no war in Ukraine without Putin's interference. The Maydan bloodbath may also not have happened, since Putin was pressuring Yanukovych to violently crack down on the demonstrators.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
It is a new one - and I was appalled to read it.

They'll need to adjust the access regime. But imposing controls on movement into and out of the separatist-held territories is pretty much a necessity, given that Putin continues to try to send his agents and terrorists into Ukraine. Several bombs went off in Ukrainian cities in recent weeks.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
Then start a timer and count how many minutes it takes before you get a well deserved smack in the face by a random person.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with beating up people.

Speaking of which, here is some footage of how Putin's friends and mercenaries treat POWs:

(warning: graphic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-gJ46pVLMo
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2...phic-warcrimes-russians-shoot.html

All of this is, of course, further raising Putin's already stellar approval ratings in Ukraine... (Ukrainians refer to him as "Putler", "maniac", "khuylo", etc.)

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
4 year old son

Speaking of your 4-year old son, you still haven't answered my basic question:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
Tell me something basic: what good do you think Putin will achieve for Russia by killing and sponsoring the killing of Ukrainians?

The way things are going, your son might end up in an unmarked grave, having died in a pointless war in which a senile Putin will deny any involvement.

Today, S&P downgraded Russia's sovereign debt to junk. The rouble is at 68 to the dollar. As a result of the Mariupol tragedy, the momentum for new sanctions against Russia is growing.

Putin continues to take Russia on the road to nowhere good ...

Quoting kachum (Reply 47):
This is just Russia being Russia. So glad that me and mine are all out of there.

Another great achievement of Putin: alienating the Belorussians and Khazaks, who are now very busy exercising how to neutralize "little green men".
 
Severnaya
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis

Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
Personally, I just wish both sides would start putting the population first, and that includes the jerk rebels who indiscriminately peppered Mariupol with rockets just as much as it does the Ukrainian government failing to give the Red Cross permission to transport vital medicines into the east.

  
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