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ElanusNotatus
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:48 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 49):

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
She has the right to travel there,

She does? based on what?

All travellers other than Australian and New Zealand citizens need to present the following documents to officers in immigration clearance:

a valid passport or other acceptable travel document;
a valid visa or authority to enter Australia (including electronic visas); and
a completed and signed Incoming Passenger Card, including health and character declaration.

The Minister for Immigration may, at his discretion and in the public interest, refuse to issue, or to cancel a visa already issued to any traveller. Given that Tenpenny has decided to cancel her tour, the Minister need not trouble himself.
Crawl, walk, fly into the future
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4385
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting bluejuice (Reply 21):

Several unvaccinated kids here in NorCal have caught measles.

I've often thought that the parents of kids like this should be charged with some kind of manslaughter-through-negligence if their vaccinated kids die from it.

Quoting bluejuice (Reply 21):
How sad that millions around the world have no access to life saving vaccines while those that can get them stupidly choose to shun them due to the wiz-dumb of idiots like "Doctor" Jenny McCarthy.

Indeed.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Did you know that the initial chicken pox vaccine had to list "femur fracture" as an adverse event in the insert because a kid broke his leg after getting one?

  

Quoting N328KF (Reply 26):
You have others that lump vaccines in with things like GMOs, who believe that they are keeping their bodies "pure."

At intermediate school, while everyone else was getting vaccines for Meningococcal B, one of my friends was exempted because his parents wanted him to be 'saved by god, not a vaccine'.   
First to fly the 787-9
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3869
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 39):
I do not get the so-far-left-they-almost-come-back-to-the-right Hollywood Cali types that say scientists must be correct about climate change and the data is correct, but then think scientists must be wrong about vaccines and the data is wrong.



I can try to make sense of it for you.

I am involved in the Yoga community and see the mindset of a lot of the people there whom live off the organic, gluten free, dairy free, vegan, vegetarian mindset are often against vaccines because of the potential toxic materials that are in the vaccine. Many whom follow this lifestyle happen to be left leaning so that is why people from so-cal (whom embody this lifestyle) are the ones not vaccinating where average middle class people still do it.

These are the same people who won't give their infant's dairy or any other food that they actually need to grow are surprised the baby dies which Doc already mentioned and won't vaccinate because of any toxic material that is possibly in the vaccine.

I think the root cause of this is that the "clean diet" lifestyle actually makes people think that the have bulletproof immune systems when I have observed that they get sick about the same if not more than me. They need a lesson in anatomy as everything we consume has something toxic to us in it but our body has some amazing organs such as the liver and the kidneys to filter out the bad and keep the good.

Yes we should do what we can to reduce the amount of toxins in our body but some of it helps our immune system actually work well. There is a theory that kids get sick more today then I did 20 years ago because I was allowed to touch dirt and get messy outside and that just isn't happening anymore.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
In full agreement here. But it's not just in Australia, as this thread is evidence, ignorance and fear of speech is still wide spread.

Unless the government is knocking at your door threatening you with legal action you right to free speech is there.

It does not protect against you being questioned or mocked about your opinion or being called a nut because that is someone else's free speech at work.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 45):
credit scores for job interviews?

Depends, you work at a bank and handle money I want your credit checked, but if you are working in an industry where you do not have access to money then it isn't necessary.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 45):
hair sample for drug tests for jobs?

Again depends, if you are operating machinery then you should be tested for drugs but if you are doing a typical office job is it really necessary to know that I smoked a little weed on the weekend if I am doing CAD drawings for you.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Why do you have to be insulting of people who disagree with you, or threaten to take away their kids?

Because he also has a right to free speech and he used it to insult, something perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the law.

Now if A.net mods decide to delete the post or send him on a 3 day vacation that is not a violation to free speech because we all agreed to the terms and conditions of being able to post on this forum.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 50):
The Minister for Immigration may, at his discretion and in the public interest, refuse to issue, or to cancel a visa already issued to any traveller. Given that Tenpenny has decided to cancel her tour, the Minister need not trouble himself.

Make sure she has the right visa, if she is coming in on an ETA IIRC she can get it cancelled because she is coming there to work technically.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
ElanusNotatus
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:48 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
Make sure she has the right visa, if she is coming in on an ETA IIRC she can get it cancelled because she is coming there to work technically.

True. If an immigration official has reason to believe that a person is arriving with the wrong documentation, including the wrong type of visa, or that the person will violate the conditions attached, the official may refuse entry.
Crawl, walk, fly into the future
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21888
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Why do you have to be insulting of people who disagree with you, or threaten to take away their kids?

Because they put other kids at risk, as has been demonstrated. What they are doing is nothing short of biological terrorism. They are INTENTIONALLY, through sheer negligence, causing an outbreak of measles.

Why is this not treated this way?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
According to the CDC, the "anti-vax" people are correct. There is a chance (granted, a small one) that some of these vaccines can cause severe and permanent damage.

You are 1) posting 20yo information and 2) not reading it correctly. But then you aren't a physician or a biologist, so I'm not surprised. This is sophisticated material. I wouldn't try to debate a physicist on the merits of string theory. It takes many years to understand.

Anaphylaxis is a risk to just about any organic compound larger than three or four carbon atoms. It's also called a "severe allergic reaction." You might have an anaphylactic reaction to just about any food in existence, although some are more likely to cause it than others. You are about one billion times more likely to have an anaphylactic reaction to a peanut than you are to a vaccine.

Thrombocytopenia is a low platelet count and it is a rare side-effect of the measles vaccine. It is temporary and usually doesn't cause much harm. It occurs in one in 30,000 doses in Sweden and one in one million doses in the US.

The link between DTP and both acute chronic encephalopathy has been disproven. However, DTP is no longer used. DTaP is now used instead because of these concerns. As an unintended consequence, the newer vaccine is less effective and there have been deaths from pertussis that might not have happened if we were still using the old DTP.

It is well known that MMR, being a live attenuated vaccine, should not be given to immunocompromised individuals. That is widely-known contraindication to the vaccine.

As an analogy, there are situations in which seatbelts have killed people who might have otherwise survived accidents in both autos and aircraft. To say that the anti-vaxers are "correct" is like arguing that people should never wear seatbelts because seatbelts have risks. Yes, vaccines have risks, but those risks are several orders of magnitude smaller than the risks of not vaccinating.

Now, if you are going to intentionally expose your kids to increased risk of permanent injury or death, then you are not fit to be a parent. I stand by that statement and I will not back down. I have seen too many children die because their parents allowed them to through righteous medical neglect.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
PPVRA
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RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
It does not protect against you being questioned or mocked about your opinion or being called a nut because that is someone else's free speech at work.

Sure, protest her all you want. I will join in. But violent threats are not appropriate and neither is a government ban on her entry.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21888
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 55):
Sure, protest her all you want. I will join in. But violent threats are not appropriate and neither is a government ban on her entry.

What if she were an advocate for drunk driving?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Airstud
Posts: 4891
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 56):
What if she were an advocate for drunk driving?

Gross.

Encouragingly, a California state senator is introducing legislation to make vaccination compulsory.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3869
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:28 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 55):
Sure, protest her all you want. I will join in. But violent threats are not appropriate and neither is a government ban on her entry.

Violent threats should be handled to the full extent of the law, no argument there.

Regarding a government ban, last I checked Australia is a sovereign nation and they can decide whom they let in and so can any other country. As a citizen of one country you aren't given a right to enter another.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Why do you have to be insulting of people who disagree with you, or threaten to take away their kids?

According to the CDC, the "anti-vax" people are correct. There is a chance (granted, a small one) that some of these vaccines can cause severe and permanent damage.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

Quote:
the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES) and other controlled epidemiologic studies have provided evidence that DTP can cause acute encephalopathy (64-68). This adverse event occurs rarely, with an estimated risk of zero to 10.5 episodes per million DTP vaccinations (68)

For those who don't know, "acute encephalopathy" victims will often be wheelchair bound, unable to communicate, unable to feed himself, unable to walk, unable to even stand. The stats from the CDC say it happens to 1 in 100,000, and yes, the chance is extremely small, but what if it were your child? Are you to simply suck it up?

That's 20 years old, and has a range of 0-10.5 events per million. That basically identifies the limits of the data they had.

As to newer studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15194842

"To assess whether pertussis-containing vaccines cause encephalitis or encephalopathy, the IMPACT network of Canadian pediatric centers screened more than 12,000 admissions for neurologic disorders between 1993 and 2002. Seven cases of encephalopathy began within 7 days after pertussis vaccination, but a more likely cause was found in each instance. No attributable case followed administration of >6.5 million doses of vaccine."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Why do you have to be insulting of people who disagree with you, or threaten to take away their kids?

for the same reason I wouldn't let them run a small pox lab in their basement. If you intend to turn your kids into little walking, talking bio weapons the government should do something.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13688
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RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
Depends, you work at a bank and handle money I want your credit checked,

so, being late on your bills or credit card payments males you more likely to be a thief? Got empirical data to support that claim?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
Again depends, if you are operating machinery then you should be tested for drugs

he said hair sample, not skin whipe. You can get serious pissed every Friday and Saturday and still pass your employers drug tests, but smoking a joint at your friends wedding 3 weeks ago or Friday night makes you unfit for your job?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
I am involved in the Yoga community and see the mindset of a lot of the people there whom live off the organic,

weird.. in my yoga class I am even the only piscaterian.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 54):
Why is this not treated this way?

  
if a cluster of religious Muslim families decided to not vaccinate their kids and that causes an outbreak, I am sure it won't be long until people talk terrorism.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Airstud
Posts: 4891
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:37 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 61):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 52):
Depends, you work at a bank and handle money I want your credit checked,

so, being late on your bills or credit card payments males you more likely to be a thief? Got empirical data to support that claim?

Got empirical data to support a claim that anyone's been denied bank employment solely because of a couple of late payments?

Late payments aren't the only things that show up on credit reports. Chargeoffs/collections, repo's, liens, wage garnishments and other public records show up as well. It's part of a background check and helps give the employer a better idea of the applicant's character.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 62):
Late payments aren't the only things that show up on credit reports. Chargeoffs/collections, repo's, liens, wage garnishments and other public records show up as well. It's part of a background check and helps give the employer a better idea of the applicant's character.

The only thing that makes one a more likely thief than the average person is a criminal record saying you are one. If anything, having a bad credit score and no criminal record pretty much shows that you stay on the legal side of things no matter how tight money is. With someone that has a good credit rating, and always had, you have no indication what those people will do if money ever becomes a real issue. I don´t see how you can get useful information from a credit rating, aside of course a good feel for how little money you can offer. If someone is tight on money, they may accept a much lower pay. Which i think is the real reason why employers want to see that.
Heck, an employer asking a future prospect for a criminal record certificate here is already a gray area (aka, court rulings regarding a criminal past indicate that asking for a criminal record certificate is illegal, but no court had to decide that specific matter yet). And i see no reason to believe that employers here have more trouble with dishonest employees than in the United States.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:36 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 63):
The only thing that makes one a more likely thief than the average person is a criminal record saying you are one. If anything, having a bad credit score and no criminal record pretty much shows that you stay on the legal side of things no matter how tight money is. With someone that has a good credit rating, and always had, you have no indication what those people will do if money ever becomes a real issue. I don´t see how you can get useful information from a credit rating, aside of course a good feel for how little money you can offer. If someone is tight on money, they may accept a much lower pay. Which i think is the real reason why employers want to see that.
Heck, an employer asking a future prospect for a criminal record certificate here is already a gray area (aka, court rulings regarding a criminal past indicate that asking for a criminal record certificate is illegal, but no court had to decide that specific matter yet). And i see no reason to believe that employers here have more trouble with dishonest employees than in the United States.

While I agree the correlation is shaky at best, credit reports are nonetheless used by many employers, landlords, etc., as a screening tool. With bad credit, you're significantly less likely to get a job, be able to lease an apartment, etc. For example, the following found that 35% of employers in 2003 used credit checks as part of the screening process, and in some industries, like retail, it was over 40%. "In short, a substantial and, in recent years, increasing number of employers are screening out job applicants for having a negative credit history.":

http://www.outtengolden.com/sites/de...les/klein_eeoc_testimony_final.pdf
 
Airstud
Posts: 4891
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 63):
The only thing that makes one a more likely thief than the average person is a criminal record saying you are one.

Are you saying that every single time anyone commits theft, they get caught?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 63):
I don´t see how you can get useful information from a credit rating, aside of course a good feel for how little money you can offer.

Credit rating isn't the same thing as credit history. Employers are paying to look at histories; they'd have to pay extra to see FICO® scores which, as you note, don't by themselves offer relevant info to employers.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
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mad99
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:19 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 64):
"In short, a substantial and, in recent years, increasing number of employers are screening out job applicants for having a negative credit history."

Wow
I didn't really believe that this happens but looks like its common. I can't imagine using that to select someone.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 55):
neither is a government ban on her entry.

The government didn't ban her entry, and I've seen nothing that indicates she would be banned.

Her people announced they were cancelling the visit because of "the inability to ensure the safety of attendees" - which is BS. They reported no threats or issues to the police.

The trip was a fund raising effort - and my personal opinion is the pre-sales of her lectures were not bringing in enough money to ensure a profit on the trip.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6075
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 18):
Problem in many western countries is that many major diseases has been eradicated due to vaccines over the last few decades that many there really don't understand the pain and suffering people go through without these vaccines.

That is very true. Far too few people in the west have that burned into their memory. My parents remember what it was like before the polio vaccine came out and the fear parents lived with that their child may be next. People like the doctor in question, whose competence I question, do not have that sort of life experience.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Airstud
Posts: 4891
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

RE: US Vaccine Skeptic Cancels Australia Visit

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:25 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 68):
People like the doctor in question

If you're talking about Sherri Tenpenney, she's not even a doctor.
Pancakes are delicious.

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