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Jetsgo
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If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:03 am

With the recent and failed small scale attack on Ain al-Asad airbase in Iraq, I've come to wonder how our nation would react if say there was an infiltration and ISIS was able to capture and make a video out of a US Marine... or any service member for that matter. I'm not just talking militarily (although I hope Obama would be able to muster the courage to launch some sort of response), but politically and emotionally. Are we prepared for such an incident? Do you think it's no longer a matter of if, but when? Thoughts...
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TWA772LR
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:19 am

You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour. Not to mention Apaches and a couple AC-130s to provide air support. After that, the Tomahawks and B-2s will pay a visit.

Then the US public will back a war against ISIS and the show will truly begin.
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stlgph
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:42 am

I'm sure President Obama would happily take the time to "condemn" the act after he gets off the golf course.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):

I'm sure President Obama would happily take the time to "condemn" the act after he gets off the golf course.

And after the bad guys were dead.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:45 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):

You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour. Not to mention Apaches and a couple AC-130s to provide air support. After that, the Tomahawks and B-2s will pay a visit.

Then the US public will back a war against ISIS and the show will truly begin.


Except they could transport the guy somewhere further away and behead him there, finding the place "within the hour" could prove to be difficult.

Anyway, does US public really care more about a soldier, somebody whose job includes killing people, getting beheaded than if the one getting beheaded was a journalist, humanitarian aid worker etc?
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bennett123
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:54 am

Given that IS have killed several US citizens already, I wonder whether killing a soldier would be a tipping point.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:16 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 5):
Given that IS have killed several US citizens already, I wonder whether killing a soldier would be a tipping point.

Good point, but a very public execution of a service member would certainly create a rallying point. But, then again, maybe not. US public opinion tends to be a fairly fickle thing...except when it comes to Kanye West...he's a jackass.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:44 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour. Not to mention Apaches and a couple AC-130s to provide air support. After that, the Tomahawks and B-2s will pay a visit.

Because getting OBL was so quick and easy, wasn't it?

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 5):
Given that IS have killed several US citizens already, I wonder whether killing a soldier would be a tipping point.

Yes, if the public beheading of one of your civilians doesn't do it, I fail to see why it would be different for a member of the military (who chose to potentially put themselves in danger).
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
Because getting OBL was so quick and easy, wasn't it?

He didn't parade around going, "Look at me! Look at me!" the way these ISIS goons do.
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BMI727
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:15 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
Yes, if the public beheading of one of your civilians doesn't do it, I fail to see why it would be different for a member of the military (who chose to potentially put themselves in danger).

First of all, as far as I know, all of the American civilians killed by ISIS were in the region voluntarily. The latest girl to be killed could have her death summed up by Top Gun: "The State Department regrets to inform you that your daughter is dead because she was stupid." That said, the US still should make every effort to protect its citizens even if some of their troubles are self inflicted.

As far as civilian vs. military goes, killing a serviceman would be a direct attack against the government of the United States. That crosses a different line than killing civilians in the region on their own. Not that the killing of civilians doesn't cross a line, I believe that crosses a line that warrants a wrath of God type response, but killing a member of the military ups the ante further.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:57 am

ISIS didn't sign the Geneva convention, they don't care for international law, they don't care if someone is military or not, they themselves fight with or without having been formally trained, so in my opinion it shouldn't matter. But in the US military people have a certain status, that would be the cause of a public outcry, not anything tangible.

I don't see what kind of response could be mounted though, I certainly expect the allies to be hitting every known ISIS location already.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
First of all, as far as I know, all of the American civilians killed by ISIS were in the region voluntarily. The latest girl to be killed could have her death summed up by Top Gun: "The State Department regrets to inform you that your daughter is dead because she was stupid."

So reporters and aid workers are "stupid"?

Why doesn't your World view surprise me?   
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

If humanitarian aid workers / journalists who got beheaded are stupid for going there, then the military guy would be stupid for choosing a dangerous profession.

Personally I hold most of Middle East and North Africa on my no-go list, apart from few exceptions like UAE and Oman. That doesn't mean I would blame those who went to Syria / Iraq to help people or do other important work for getting killed by bunch of savages.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
First of all, as far as I know, all of the American civilians killed by ISIS were in the region voluntarily.

This raises the question that has been nagging me every time I've seen an article on someone getting captured and/or killed.

Reporters are one thing, but the rest; what in the hell are they doing there?!

Anyways, I imagine that if they were to capture a US serviceman, I'd imagine we might end up doing a specific mission to rescue or seek retribution on the specific ones who did it. I don't think it'd be an invasion, or anything as large scale as what happened previously. I think it'd primarily consist of drone actions this time around, as well as more covert operations.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 13):
Reporters are one thing, but the rest; what in the hell are they doing there?!

Doing their bit to try and make the World a better place. Heroes in my book and as far from stupid as it's possible to get.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 11):
So reporters and aid workers are "stupid"?

Yes, what a charming statement.
The fact that she had not only guts to go there but also to go and try to help those in a desperate position that no ignorant keyboard warrior could ever comprehend speaks volumes.
Some right wing types in the US even gloated over her murder.

As to the response of a US service person being captured, as ever, any response would have to be dependent on intelligence if a rescue attempt was planned.

It seems the Jordanian pilot was murdered weeks before that video was released, not long after he was captured, so that would be the likely fate of any other military personnel captured.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 5):
Given that IS have killed several US citizens already, I wonder whether killing a soldier would be a tipping point.

I would think it would be. The US attaches more importance to soldiers than to civilians.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The latest girl to be killed could have her death summed up by Top Gun: "The State Department regrets to inform you that your daughter is dead because she was stupid."

She did more to make the world a better place for the less fortunate than most ever will, including you or I. People like her know that they're taking a risk, that they don't have to go out and help, that they could just stay home and live in relative comfort. But instead they choose to take the risk to help others. That's an incredibly noble and courageous decision to make, and they're just as much heroes as any military member as far as I'm concerned. They deserve a lot better than to have their memory insulted like that.

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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting Jetsgo (Thread starter):
Are we prepared for such an incident? Do you think it's no longer a matter of if, but when? Thoughts...

Can't be too far off happening, they'll already beheaded Americans.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour.

Yet you didn't bother trying to save the Americans ISIL already beheaded, why would it be any different from a serviceman? There lives aren't worth more then anyone else's.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 8):

He didn't parade around going, "Look at me! Look at me!" the way these ISIS goons do.

No he just hid in plain sight.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
The US attaches more importance to soldiers than to civilians.

Why, a soldier is cannon fodder, always has been always will be, it's their job to die in place of civilians. A service person should be well aware of the risks before joining up.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 11):
So reporters and aid workers are "stupid"?

There's plenty of people to help in less dangerous places.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 11):
That doesn't mean I would blame those who went to Syria / Iraq to help people or do other important work for getting killed by bunch of savages.

Never let go of the White Man's Burden.

Quoting S75752 (Reply 13):
Reporters are one thing, but the rest; what in the hell are they doing there?!

Beyond that, it appears that they were there with no protection at all.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
People like her know that they're taking a risk, that they don't have to go out and help, that they could just stay home and live in relative comfort. But instead they choose to take the risk to help others. That's an incredibly noble and courageous decision to make,

It's also perhaps quite selfish and reckless. There are plenty of other people to help elsewhere. Or one could have made contacts in the region and not been in the local area. Or just have protection.

What if one or more soldiers had died in a rescue attempt of someone who showed up in a terrible corner of the world on their own with no defenses?
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flanker
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:13 pm

What difference does it make...   
 
Ken777
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting Jetsgo (Thread starter):
although I hope Obama would be able to muster the courage to launch some sort of response

Obama had no problem "mustering the courage" to go after OBL. He was focused from Day One in office and signed off on the raid with no hesitation. While that looks like a no brainer you need to remember when Carter signed off on a raid to free Embassy Hostages in Iran, with the raid being a failure because of choppers failing. (I seem to remember the choppers being washed off with salt water before the mission as one cause.) Regardless of the causes in the field for failure it was Carter who took the blame.

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 3):
And after the bad guys were dead.

Like with OBL?

Obama has changed direction in how we are going after the bastards. Shifting from boots on the ground to drones has been a God send for many of those boots on the ground. I'm ready to see another 500 to 1,000 drones acquired and moved into the area of combat as soon as possible. Any SOB waiving a black flag gets to eat a missile. But that takes money and the Conservatives are not going to be willing to increase taxes to pay for it. Maybe they an put it on the credit card like W & Dick did with the WMD Invasion.

As for a Marine captured by ISIS, the military commanders on the ground will work pretty hard to get him (or her back). Hard to believe, but those commanders also have some responsibility (and matching authority).
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
First of all, as far as I know, all of the American civilians killed by ISIS were in the region voluntarily. The latest girl to be killed could have her death summed up by Top Gun: "The State Department regrets to inform you that your daughter is dead because she was stupid."

That's a bit harsh, but not far from the truth. Seriously, an unmarried young woman, heading into Syria in the middle of civil war with a lot of Islamists running around, the chances of it ending well are pretty slim to begin with. Her heart was in the right place, but she clearly was not thinking straight when she decided to go to the Middle East.
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flanker
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
That's a bit harsh, but not far from the truth. Seriously, an unmarried young woman, heading into Syria in the middle of civil war with a lot of Islamists running around, the chances of it ending well are pretty slim to begin with. Her heart was in the right place, but she clearly was not thinking straight when she decided to go to the Middle East.

It was harsh but exactly on point. Naive and stupid.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
Then the US public will back a war against ISIS and the show will truly begin.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I believe that crosses a line that warrants a wrath of God type response,

you guys never learn!!



I'd bet they wouldn't behead him. After burning alive the last guy they'd have to up it a notch - somthng even more spectacular
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:08 pm

The one thing would be to go after and find the head of the Daesh, the self proclaimed Caliph Al Bhagdadi, but while he appears in occasional videos, he keeps himself pretty much hidden.

Jan
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Mir
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
What if one or more soldiers had died in a rescue attempt of someone who showed up in a terrible corner of the world on their own with no defenses?

It would be a shame. But it's their job if their commanders decide such an attempt should be made (and I'm not saying it necessarily should unless there's a high probability of success).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Seriously, an unmarried young woman, heading into Syria in the middle of civil war with a lot of Islamists running around, the chances of it ending well are pretty slim to begin with.

Which she likely knew before going. If she was willing to take the risk, more power to her. She was making herself useful there - it's not like she was on vacation.

-Mir
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DDR
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:23 pm

The U.S government would condemn the actions. They would have the President make a former speech. And then the soldier would still be dead.

Make no mistake about ISIL. If they captured an American soldier, he would be dead within hours. Of course his death would not be reported for weeks. In the meantime, ISIL would exploit their might at capturing another infidel.

If America was not able to save her civilians, she would not be able to save a serviceman.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour. Not to mention Apaches and a couple AC-130s to provide air support. After that, the Tomahawks and B-2s will pay a visit.

I see video games are becoming very popular these days.

Remember the Benghazi attack in 2012? Yeah...there goes your "within the hour" statement. Beyond funny.

B-2s, Tomahawks? For what purpose, pray tell, to kill who?

I doubt an attempt would be made to rescue the guy, since he will probably be killed within the hour. The US would look for evidence before trying anything. If he is alive, I don´t doubt a special ops type of thing would be launched. Risky and it could backfire, but would be the right thing to do.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
That said, the US still should make every effort to protect its citizens even if some of their troubles are self inflicted.

They should. And while I am not attempting to insult the memory of these unfortunate souls, there needs to be a debate about how much responsibility the US government has to rescue civilians that go to a dangerous zone, where Americans are particularly disliked and are juicy targets, without any military training, for private purposes. Wether it be as an aid worker or a contractor trying to score big business. This debate will occur when in a mission to rescue an American hostage like these people I´m talking about, casualties among the soldiers end up being big.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 8):
He didn't parade around going, "Look at me! Look at me!" the way these ISIS goons do.
No he just hid in plain sight.

Just stop.   

Anyway, my point is that the ISIS thugs are out there, publicly thumping their chests and acting as if they're invincible. They're not hiding.

Thugs who don't hide become targets.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting Jetsgo (Thread starter):
ISIS was able to capture and make a video out of a US Marine

Wouldn't happen. There are only two people that have been taken by the enemy since 2001. Both were Army soldiers, and one of them was a willing deserter.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour. Not to mention Apaches and a couple AC-130s to provide air support. After that, the Tomahawks and B-2s will pay a visit.

Then the US public will back a war against ISIS and the show will truly begin.

You watch too many movies.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
First of all, as far as I know, all of the American civilians killed by ISIS were in the region voluntarily.

Since the US hasn't had the draft since 1973, everyone who is in a hostile area is there voluntarily.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:08 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
I doubt an attempt would be made to rescue the guy, since he will probably be killed within the hour. T

We retrieved the pilot who's F15 crashed in Libya pretty quickly. And have you been to the US lately? ISIS is constantly in the news and on the front page of every newspaper and even in Germany. The US people almost want to crush ISIS. And we even have the movies that say we love our troops dearly and that we are totally behind them (Lone Survivor and American Sniper, to name the biggest ones).

So if this hypothetical American serviceman/woman does get captured, you can count on the Pentagon trying to devise a plan to rescue them ASAP. And if said person is killed, you can count on the American people calling for war.
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AR385
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
And have you been to the US lately?

How do you know I am not there?

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
We retrieved the pilot who's F15 crashed in Libya pretty quickly

Was it

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
within the hour

?

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
And we even have the movies that say we love our troops dearly and that we are totally behind them (Lone Survivor and American Sniper, to name the biggest ones).

   Oh right, the movies. Of which:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
You watch too many
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
And if said person is killed, you can count on the American people calling for war.

War against who? Syria? Iraq? Iran? We are already bombing ISIS. So do tell. War. Against who.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
So if this hypothetical American serviceman/woman does get captured, you can count on the Pentagon trying to devise a plan to rescue them ASAP

Where have I said differently? Please don´t select quote. It does nothing to your credibility and frankly is not very honest. Below is my ENTIRE quote, not the piece you chose to pick.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
I doubt an attempt would be made to rescue the guy, since he will probably be killed within the hour. The US would look for evidence before trying anything. If he is alive, I don´t doubt a special ops type of thing would be launched. Risky and it could backfire, but would be the right thing to do.
 
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:02 am

From NBC news, IS IL is threatening to burn Kurdish captives just like the Jordanian Pilot. I
believe them. 17 is what I remember.
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The latest girl to be killed could have her death summed up by Top Gun: "The State Department regrets to inform you that your daughter is dead because she was stupid."


If you're talking about the young American woman who was killed in the Jordanian revenge attacks, then it is patronising to call her a "girl."

Not that i'm surprised, given your casual dismissal of thousands of aid workers in very dangerous places all around the world.

So casually dismissing the work of groups such as "Medicines sans Frontieres" - whom the young American woman was with - they're all stupid, too?

I guess I was stupid, in your book, voluntarily going into a small war zone on the Kenya/Uganda border, and being the first (white) person to alert the aid organisations to the humanitarian crisis developing there.

Volunteer aid workers are often the front line troops, getting in before the big bureaucracies can rouse themselves. And sometimes, those aid workers get injured or killed, but usually, they know the risk before they go in, and they accept it. For some, surviving the danger can become addictive - it is an extraordinary high.

Not all young people are computer cowboys smugly pontificating on the state of the world from the safety of their desks. Some actually get up and try to do something about it.

mariner
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BMI727
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
It would be a shame. But it's their job if their commanders decide such an attempt should be made (and I'm not saying it necessarily should unless there's a high probability of success).

I agree that the government needs to make every effort to rescue its citizens.

I'm just saying that we should not lose the self serving aspect what she did. She wanted to help people, but she was so great at helping people she was going to go help people in one of the worst places in the world (possibly woefully under-prepared). What a special, if naive and reckless, person. There's definitely an aspect of her story that is self inflicted. Even more so for the Japanese guy who apparently went just to go hang out around a war.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
Americans are particularly disliked and are juicy targets, without any military training, for private purposes.

Companies (media, energy, etc.) all pay big money for private security on top of whatever protection they get from the government. They make considerable effort to make sure their people are prepared and protected. Private lone wolf do gooders don't seem to take similar measures.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
Since the US hasn't had the draft since 1973, everyone who is in a hostile area is there voluntarily.

Funny how that didn't stop anyone from protesting the Iraq war up until now.

That said, the crucial difference between some people in dangerous areas and others is 1) the military has training, protection, and infrastructure to minimize the risk as do organizations such as the media and 2) those jobs really cannot be done otherwise. (And if we can do a mission without putting servicemen in harm's way, I'm all for it. There's nothing dishonorable about UAVs)

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
Not that i'm surprised, given your casual dismissal of thousands of aid workers in very dangerous places all around the world.

I'm not dismissing it, but rather acknowledging that it's a big risk that is not mitigated as well as it could be so it's hardly surprising when it ends badly.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Ken777
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 23):
I'd bet they wouldn't behead him. After burning alive the last guy they'd have to up it a notch - somthng even more spectacular
Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
Remember the Benghazi attack in 2012? Yeah...there goes your "within the hour" statement.

Response time for the military is based on location and status of assets. When the Pueblo was captured in the late 60s the destroyer I was serving on was south of Danang and was given orders to head to North Korea ASAP. That was a response time of days. The reality of military operations.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
17 is what I remember.

I was trying to remember if it was 13 or 17, or somewhere in between. I wouldn't be surprised if they lined them all up and had a mass burning. One a day would become boring - except for the guys in the cage.

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
Not that i'm surprised, given your casual dismissal of thousands of aid workers in very dangerous places all around the world.

You need to remember that BMI727 is all about money. He can't understand that others have a sense of duty, or a need to serve.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Funny how that didn't stop anyone from protesting the Iraq war up until now.

People who remember the Cheney/Bush invasion of Iraq was for those mythical WMDs. Remember all the lies that have surfaced since the invasion - and the 40,000 Purple Hearts? And, for a money only guy like you, remember the estimates of the long term costs for that war was around $4 - $5 Trillion? Fortunately you will get to pay taxes to cover the costs of that unnecessary war long after I'm dead. And when you are on your deathbed (which I hope will be well into the future) there will still be veterans needing benefits from the stupidity and greed of the last Conservative Invasion.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
I'm just saying that we should not lose the self serving aspect what she did.

Nothing self-serving about what she did. Nothing at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
She wanted to help people, but she was so great at helping people she was going to go help people in one of the worst places in the world

Unfortunately, the worst places in the world are where the help is needed the most.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
(possibly woefully under-prepared).

She was with an aid group - she wasn't there alone. It's likely they didn't have adequate protection, but that shouldn't be a prerequisite for going into an area to help - very few groups would go anywhere if that were the case. The groups that do this are non-profits - even the best of them are constantly scrounging for resources and trying to squeak by as best they can. We're not talking about militaries with government financial and political backing here.

I'm not saying that she didn't take a risk. Nor am I necessarily saying that an attempt should absolutely have been made to rescue her - if the military thinks they can get her they should try, but you can't just lay waste to everything in order to find a couple of civilians who chose to go there if it compromises the bigger picture. When you go into an area like that, you should understand that your country may not be able to get you out if things go south.

But to call her selfish or stupid is just wrong. She did a very brave thing, and unfortunately paid for it with her life. Much like soldiers do, as was mentioned above. She deserves similar recognition.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
Nothing self-serving about what she did. Nothing at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes there is. Why isn't it enough to go down to a soup kitchen or coach Little League?

I'm not saying an altruism arms race is bad, but recognize what it is. Every good thing any person ever did was done for some payoff: because it makes them feel good, to win points with God, community service hours to graduate, etc.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
But to call her selfish or stupid is just wrong.

She's both, and sometimes stupid things work out. This time it didn't.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
I'm not dismissing it, but rather acknowledging that it's a big risk that is not mitigated as well as it could be so it's hardly surprising when it ends badly.

If you're not dismissing it - or her - then what's all this about?:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
'm just saying that we should not lose the self serving aspect what she did. She wanted to help people, but she was so great at helping people she was going to go help people in one of the worst places in the world (possibly woefully under-prepared). What a special, if naive and reckless, person.

You can't know if she was "woefully under-prepared" - she was not - you can't know if she was "naive and reckless."

I don't think you know anything about her at all, she surely was not naive, nor particularly reckless, she wasn't even based in Syria proper, but on the relatively safe Turkish border.

But she was darned unlucky:

Try this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...eller-hostage-isis-rescue-attempts

"It was supposed to be a fleeting excursion from the relative safety of the Turkish border to a hospital in Aleppo, 70 miles south. But what began as a simple call to help people ended up in tragedy for Kayla Mueller, the 26-year-old American woman who died in Islamic State captivity."

She had a man to protect her, her Syrian boyfriend who was also captured and later released. Or this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...a-mueller-volunteer_n_6653182.html

"Mueller committed her time to a number of notable domestic and international causes, including volunteering in Arizona with HIV/AIDS patients and homeless women and helping people in need in India. But it was the immense suffering of victims in Syria that led her to that war zone in 2012, according to a statement release by her parents."

As I said before, there are those for whom helping others has a great priority in their lives, and I think it is reprehensible for you to throw stones at that.

mariner

[Edited 2015-02-14 18:47:43]
aeternum nauta
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
If you're not dismissing it - or her - then what's all this about?:

People asked what the difference would be between people like her and an American serviceman being captured and likely killed by ISIS and I gave the answer.

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
You can't know if she was "woefully under-prepared" - she was not

I'd make the case that being American and traveling in that region without armed protection is by definition being underprepared, but whatever.

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
But she was darned unlucky:

Funny how it's a lot easier to be unlucky when you're going around in a region that has a civil war and a brutal terrorist organization in it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
But what began as a simple call to help people ended up in tragedy for Kayla Mueller

...there's always that one trip...
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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mariner
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
People asked what the difference would be between people like her and an American serviceman being captured and likely killed by ISIS and I gave the answer.

You didn't give anything like the answer. To begin with, it is not known for certain that she was killed by ISIS.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
I'd make the case that being American and traveling in that region without armed protection is by definition being underprepared, but whatever.

The boy-friend may have been armed, I don't know.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Funny how it's a lot easier to be unlucky when you're going around in a region that has a civil war and a brutal terrorist organization in it.

Yet you seem to think think she was unaware of that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
there's always that one trip...

If you think that "one trip" isn't sometimes worth taking, then - from my perspective - you're in for a very dull life.

Fine that you don't want to take that one trip - not everyone is like you.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:49 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
You would have Green Berets, SEALs, and AF PJs storm that position within the hour. Not to mention Apaches and a couple AC-130s to provide air support. After that, the Tomahawks and B-2s will pay a visit.

omg

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
The US people almost want to crush ISIS. And we even have the movies that say we love our troops dearly and that we are totally behind them (Lone Survivor and American Sniper, to name the biggest ones).

So if this hypothetical American serviceman/woman does get captured, you can count on the Pentagon trying to devise a plan to rescue them ASAP. And if said person is killed, you can count on the American people calling for war.

It almost sounds like you want this to happen... I like our current strategy now believe it or not. Not spending nearly as much money, 0 of our troops have died, we aren't rushing into some decades long war, we are letting the countries over there fight, etc. If a Republican was in office, we'd probably would have invaded Syria by now and would still be losing troops in Iraq
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
Yet you didn't bother trying to save the Americans ISIL already beheaded, why would it be any different from a serviceman? There lives aren't worth more then anyone else's.

Actually the US made attempts to save them but was, sadly, unsuccessful. It even made more to save Kayla, as the President noted.

As for Kayla, good motives or not, from various reports and interviews including some from Doctors Without Borders it seems she was not fully spun up for the region. Maybe those reports will be wrong, but it does seem she got in over her head.

Volunteering in a soup kitchen is great, but not if you have not learnt how to run the stove, can opener, or know where the bowls are. If she had been more educated could the same thing have happened? Maybe, but it is a good lesson for others wanting to go to such lengths--be as prepared as possible.
Ci sono formiche qui
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:29 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 42):
Volunteering in a soup kitchen is great, but not if you have not learnt how to run the stove, can opener,

Now that you mention it. I´ve volunteered and RAN a soup kitchen for 250 people, with substance abuse problems. It´s really not easy. Not at all. I can still make rice for 400 people but ask me to make it for 2 and I burn it.

Your example is perfectly adequate.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 42):
Volunteering in a soup kitchen is great, but not if you have not learnt how to run the stove, can opener, or know where the bowls are. If she had been more educated could the same thing have happened? Maybe, but it is a good lesson for others wanting to go to such lengths--be as prepared as possible.


The German Army offers courses in basic battle field survival and fieldcraft for journalists, diplomats and aid workers.
There they learn to distinguish different types of weapons and their effects, how to recognise where fire comes from and if it is distant or effective fire aimed at one, how to find and use cover and concealment and get trained in simulated scenes in a military training area.
It is basically a run down of the basic fieldcraft and weapons training given to military recruits, but without that actual shooting.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:14 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 42):
Maybe those reports will be wrong, but it does seem she got in over her head.

Well - obviously she did.

I've met several young missionaries, fresh out of the midwest, and young aid workers from England who are in over their heads when they first arrive in remote parts of Africa, no matter how well prepared they think they are or may be. Very little in the west can prepare you what what you will encounter.

I was as green as could be - I hadn't even picked out my tree the first time three of us went for a walk and I surely wasn't ready for guns pointed at me, or bombs dropping nearby, or having to bind gunshot wounds in the the clinic - although I had laid out dead bodies in a London hospital when I was a student.

The fact remains that she was also darned unlucky, and certainly if it is true that she was killed during a Jordanian airstrike.

I see no reason to attempt to diminish her and whatever reservations the may have had, Medicins Sans Frontieres took her on. If they had doubts about her ability to cope, they could - and perhaps should - have said no.

mariner

[Edited 2015-02-15 01:15:54]
aeternum nauta
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19925
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:23 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Yes there is. Why isn't it enough to go down to a soup kitchen or coach Little League?

I'm not saying an altruism arms race is bad, but recognize what it is. Every good thing any person ever did was done for some payoff: because it makes them feel good, to win points with God, community service hours to graduate, etc.

Seriously, if you were any shallower, you'd be in danger of evaporating.

The East Africa Ebola outbreak is a classic example of 'stupid volunteers' putting the greater needs of others ahead of themselves at considerable risk. Any one of them is worth more to the World than a thousand like you.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8959
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RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:31 am

I suggest we start 'kidnapping' these pathetic cowards and start executing them on CNN, by the hundreds.



They deserve nothing less than the psychotic brutality they have given to be returned on an infinite order of magnitude.

[Edited 2015-02-15 01:37:58]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:13 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
Yet you seem to think think she was unaware of that.

I think that she was totally unaware of it. But anyone who thinks she was unlucky doesn't know what "unlucky" means. Dropping dead of a congenital heart defect is unlucky. Being killed by terrorists after willingly traveling to a war zone full of people who really, really do not like Americans is not unlucky. Tragic, but not unlucky.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 42):
Maybe those reports will be wrong, but it does seem she got in over her head.

Unless you have considerable weaponry, military training to use it, and companions with the same you will be in over your head. That's just the reality of it.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 46):
Any one of them is worth more to the World than a thousand like you.

First, I think it's touching that you know more about my life than I do. Suffice to say, the assumptions are staggering and incorrect. Secondly, in the case of Ms. Mueller, not anymore.

Either way, I don't think acknowledging why people really engage in altruistic actions lessens the impact or should be avoided.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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mariner
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: If Isis Were To Capture A U.S. Serviceman

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:26 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
I think that she was totally unaware of it. But anyone who thinks she was unlucky doesn't know what "unlucky" means. Dropping dead of a congenital heart defect is unlucky. Being killed by terrorists after willingly traveling to a war zone full of people who really, really do not like Americans is not unlucky. Tragic, but not unlucky.

It's tough to know how she could have been unaware of it since she sought it out and it wasn't exactly her first day in the war zone.

But do you not read what I post - or what's in the news?

It is not known for certain how she died - if it was by the terrorists or by one of he Jordanian airstrikes, which would have been extremely unlucky.

But at least you're now saying it is "tragic" - which I suppose is some sort of advance and preferable to blaming the victim.

mariner

[Edited 2015-02-15 02:41:50]
aeternum nauta

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