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zrs70
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When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:39 pm

How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

People have so often eclipsed doctrine with common sense. There are many things in the bible I find abhorrent. So how do I reconcile or balance all this?

One thing I remmeber is that the heroes in the bible are the ones who argued with God. If God did something they didn't like, they would lobby to change God's mind. And they usually won.

Perhaps we should do the same. We don't like what religion teaches about gay marriage? Let's confront it.

We don't like what religion says about euthanasia? Let's raise our voices.

Being bound by religious teachings can often inhibit us to the point that we forget to use our minds!
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vikkyvik
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

Find your own version of religion and/or spirituality.

I've always had a hard time believing that several million, let alone a billion, people could believe the same things (and yes, I know that's not exactly true).

You can still attend church/temple/whatever, especially for the community aspect of it. You certainly don't have to buy into every belief/tenet that said denomination holds, at least in my view.

I've realized over my life that I'm very unlikely to have exactly the same beliefs and feelings as anyone else in the world. And I'm perfectly fine with that.
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tailskid
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Being bound by religious teachings can often inhibit us to the point that we forget to use our minds!

Yes, that's the point of religious teachings.

Once you see this the choice is yours.
 
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

Get the h-e-double hockey sticks out! I was baptized Catholic but as soon as I realized the Catholic church had the moral authority of a Qaddafi, I crawled straight for the door and never looked back.
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mbmbos
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Being bound by religious teachings can often inhibit us to the point that we forget to use our minds!

You might want to check out the work of Joseph Campbell, an important mythologist of the 20th Century. He argues that all religions touch on similar themes and use similar narratives to describe the nature of life and death. Campbell encouraged readers to stick with their religion of origin - if anyway possible - even after they matured out of it. He stressed shifting to an understanding of ancient texts that is more metaphorical and argued this is where the true value of mythology lay.

You can pick up a copy of "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" or you can watch the PBS series that was conducted by Bill Moyers.

Anyway, it's very powerful stuff and it helped me to come to terms with my religious upbringing.
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tailskid
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:17 pm

I used to be a big fan of Campbell but I've evolved to the point where I now see him as just an eloquent fanboy of superstitious mumbo jumbo of all kinds.

yuch!
 
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

I too left Catholicism for a host of reasons because I thought it was way off base. Not going to have that theological discussion here, however.

But to your point, this is how I handle it: as a Christian, I focus on the very basic foundation of my faith--that Jesus is the son of God, who came to earth, was crucified and died for our sins and it is through Him we are saved. Bottom line. nothing more than that.

Where RELIGION gets it wrong is that they build a man-made set of dogmas and layer on artificially created rules atop that.

Throughout the history of Christianity, we've seen reformations, various denominational shifts and splits, but the core premise of Christianity remains untouched.

Where I have a series problem with Islam, for instance (and I've made no bones about speaking to this loudly) is that by definition, it cannot be reformed. Because the underpinnings of Islam dictate true allegiance to Muhammed as the perfect man and prophet--he is infallible. Thus, if his own words (that inciting and calling for jihad, notably) are incorrect, then the entire house of cards comes crashing down. This is why there can be no reformation of Islam by its own dogmatic platform. No Muslim could do what Martin Luther did. Luther wasn't challenging Jesus, he was challenging the church; if someone were to try that in Islam, they're saying Muhammed is fallible and thus their entire belief system is specious.

It is THIS understanding and comprehension that needs to be shared globally because, as I've said a hundred times, the West looks at Islam entirely wrong.
 
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
People have so often eclipsed doctrine with common sense. There are many things in the bible I find abhorrent. So how do I reconcile or balance all this?

Well in my case... I gave up on the words and looked for the base meanings. "The" Bible is part of the problem I have... I've read 6 major versions now (King James, Catholic, Young's, Ethiopian Coptic (modern translated), Greek Orthodox (french translation just to confuse it) and Quaker (Purver)) plus other religious texts... some stories can be found in many, some change drastically, and some have stories that make no sense at all. It all made me Agnostic in the end... good luck is all I can say?
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Aesma
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:58 pm

Why should you handle it ? Is it like marriage, you should make concessions ? Does religion make concessions in return ?

[Edited 2015-02-18 10:58:25]
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seb146
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
We don't like what religion teaches about gay marriage? Let's confront it.
Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
We don't like what religion says about euthanasia? Let's raise our voices.

Or do what other religious people do: ignore the parts you find inconvenient.

Or this: Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry one. Don't like euthanasia? Don't do it. The Bible can be twisted around to forbid alcohol consumption. Yet, alcohol is perfectly legal in all 50 states. If you don't want to drink based on Biblical law, don't drink. See how that works? To me, the Bible is simply a set of stories. It is not the Constitution. It is not law. If it is something you choose to live by, go for it. Do NOT force the rest of us to live by it.
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oly720man
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:19 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Being bound by religious teachings can often inhibit us to the point that we forget to use our minds!

Or we are so indoctrinated that we can't use our minds. Because [name your deity] or [name your prophet] said something was so, then it was so, never to be argued with or replaced by evidence that comes up later because that would undermine everything.... if that's wrong then what about everything else?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tes-Earth-planes-not-able-fly.html

A Saudi cleric has publicly claimed that the Earth is a static object which is orbited by the sun, adding that centuries of evidence to the contrary is little more than fabrication.

Sheikh Bandar al-Khaibari is believed to have been speaking at a university lecture in the United Arab Emirates when a student asked him whether the Earth rotates or is stationary.

The Islamic scholar quickly replies 'stationary and does not move', before launching into a long-winded and confusing explanation that appears to the suggest that if the Earth was moving, airliners would never be able to reach their destination.


Reinventing the wrong wheel, again, perhaps. Some Iraqi researcher said much the same in 2007.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1684.htm

Anyway, I'm not religious but as far as I'm concerned the point of all religions, in theory, can be boiled down to 2 words. "Be nice". (In practice it seems to be "do as you're told", but anyway)

Beyond that it's a mish mash of half remembered chinese whispers and fantasies that everyone ends up fighting over because the personalities and stories become more important than the central message.
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757gb
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 4):
You might want to check out the work of Joseph Campbell, an important mythologist of the 20th Century. He argues that all religions touch on similar themes and use similar narratives to describe the nature of life and death.

Interesting. I will try to read about it when I get the chance.
What I think is that very few people can actually say that they live a particular religion to the letter. We all have failures (if that's the right name for it). But I think there is a process that you have to live. In my opinion a "hand me down" religion does not hold much value in itself. We are taught, we adopt those teachings and at some point we are bound to question. It is after questioning that the real discovery of our spirituality happens. Truly believing in something means that it makes sense to you because of the things you have lived and learned.

My belief in God started in the Catholic Church. I've had my doubts and disagreements and can't ever claim to be a true Catholic in every sense of the word - not if I'm honest with myself. But something I've picked up from Christians (non-Catholics actually) is that you need to establish a personal relationship with God. It took me a long time to figure out what that meant, but I'm glad I did and I honestly feel that God has guided my steps for some time now.
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

Well, given that most Western religions preach absolute truth, if you can find even one mistake, that invalidates the rest logically.

Hence, I threw mine down when I was 12 or so. Picked it back up at 20 and found it was still rotten. Threw it down again. Never looked back.
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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
they would lobby to change God's mind. And they usually won.

Which itself would therefore be a direct contradiction to the Bible:
Numbers 23:19 -- God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?


Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
as a Christian, I focus on the very basic foundation of my faith--that Jesus is the son of God, who came to earth, was crucified and died for our sins and it is through Him we are saved. Bottom line. nothing more than that.

Right there with you.


Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
Where RELIGION gets it wrong is that they build a man-made set of dogmas and layer on artificially created rules atop that.

Nailed it again.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:08 am

You keep your mouth shut and keep it to yourself IF they don't hurt, disadvantage or promote/tolerate harm towards others. It is easier to reconcile your own faith separate to organised religion than remain a part of something you don't 100% buy into IMO. Much like society as a whole. To be fair I treat politics the same - if I don't 100% agree with political parties/policy I don't vote, rather than compromise for something less.

IF they do hurt or promote/tolerate harm towards others then speak up and call them out for the abhorrent c*nts that they are. Religion/Politician or otherwise.
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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 14):
if I don't 100% agree with political parties/policy I don't vote, rather than compromise for something less.

Some would argue that that's even worst way one can be ("If I can't have it 100% my way, I don't want to participate!") because it contributes to the increasing polarization of political factions.

But I guess the freedom to vote, is also the freedom to abstain from the vote. So there's that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Being bound by religious teachings can often inhibit us to the point that we forget to use our minds!
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
You can still attend church/temple/whatever, especially for the community aspect of it. You certainly don't have to buy into every belief/tenet that said denomination holds, at least in my view.

I went to a Jewish private school from K-4th grade, didn't hang out with my friends from public school much between 5th and 8th grade, and nearly my entire social circle was at the JCC where my mom worked.

That all went very sour in 1995, for obvious reasons. Our synagogue was conservative, so it was already confusing to me that some of my friends at the JCC were derided in my congregation for being members of a nearby reform synagogue.

This was a couple years after my bar mitzvah, and I was still going to after school studies with my friends because we liked the people at temple, and liked discussing Israel, and were planning a trip there for our 16th birthdays. But many we looked up to, including our main rabbi, became increasingly militant and critical of Rabin's peace process. This was also confusing to us because a substitute rabbi, who had actually grown up in Israel, was involved in our JCC sports teams and was close to most of us in the class, and always promoted peace. Our main rabbi gave a sermon one Saturday with his regular Q&A, and someone asked his opinion of the anti-Rabin posters we'd seen on TV with his image degraded in an SS uniform. He basically defended these attitudes, and said 'it was easy to understand why supporters would express anger that way'. He said Israel was only for Jews, and needed our support to keep it that way. This was confusing and disappointing, as it went completely opposite many of the things we'd heard and been taught before.

I started talking to my dad about it and he didn't approve of that message either and told me it was OK if I wanted to stop going to class and services for awhile. We did try out one service at a synagogue a 40-minute further drive away, but it just wasn't the same there. As it turns out, I never went back. After Rabin was assassinated, I had a long talk with my grandma in LA, who was always quite religious, and she advised me: 'nobody needs a building to have a relationship with God'. That message stuck.

[Edited 2015-02-18 16:47:36]
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ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 13):
Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
as a Christian, I focus on the very basic foundation of my faith--that Jesus is the son of God, who came to earth, was crucified and died for our sins and it is through Him we are saved. Bottom line. nothing more than that.

Right there with you.


Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
Where RELIGION gets it wrong is that they build a man-made set of dogmas and layer on artificially created rules atop that.

Nailed it again.

But that core article of faith itself is a man-made dogma. All religion is man-man just like science is man-made. That doesn't mean that religious people can not think, expand their knowledge or seek wisdom. Indeed, several sayings (hadith) report that the Messenger said, “Seeking of knowledge is incumbent upon every Muslim...” (Ibn Majah 1/224 and Tirmidhi 218) and for a while at least, universities in the Muslim world were leading centres of the study of philosophy and science.

Throughout history men and women who held religious convictions were able to ask questions and develop science. It is partly because of this that the very notion of the nature of God (how humans perceive God) has changed over time and space. While some people may have imagined a "heavenly father" complete in white gown and flowing beard, others have not sought to attribute a corporeal substance to God.

The problem is not religion per se but organised religion, particularly where organised religion is integrated into, or backed by, the state. Then it easily ceases to be a general and largely moral guide and becomes a political weapon used to control people and quash dissent.

All anybody can do, believer or non-believer, is to try to treat others with respect or at least not intentionally harm them. If an organised religion prevents you fro doing what your conscience tells you is the right thing to do, by all means argue the point but at the end of the day, do what you think is right if it does not harm someone else.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:35 am

I went to Catholic school out of convenience for the parents rather than a desire to be educated in the Christian faith. We never went to church. My dad is Evangelical and my mom is a Catholic. Neither went to their respective services so we didn't have that kind of life. I chose to be baptized when I was 12 years old, but that only lasted about 2 years before I turned my back. And because the priest who baptized me never signed a certificate, there's no proof, so I can technically say I was never a member of the Catholic church.

It's interesting, though, seeing the many contradictions of people firsthand. The Christian faith is believing without seeing. Essentially, you don't need proof of God to know he exists. Your belief says he does. If that's the case, then why was I required to show a baptism certificate to continue on with First Communion and Confession? If "R" rated movies are not for kids and we were scolded for even knowing what they're about, why would a teacher of religion tell me those are the best movies?

By 9th grade, I had enough. Even though I went to Catholic school, I faked everything in religion class, going from "Euthanasia is bad" to "Abortion is bad", even though personally I thought it was a personal choice and not any of my business.

That being said I have friends that have evolved and have found more ways to fit religion with their new lifestyle. I have a friend who's gay and who feels comfortable going to church. The religious community in Puerto Rico often condemns unmarried couples living together; that hasn't stopped another friend from going to Boston to live with her boyfriend while she teaches at a school. In the end, these are people that have fit religion to their lifestyle but not use it against others. They don't have this competition of "I can be a better Christian than you"; rather, they have their own way. Of course, that requires believing that there is a higher power and for now, I consider that total rubbish. But, to each their own.
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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 17):
The problem is not religion per se but organised religion,

Yeah, I'm with that.

So I guess it's just a matter of how deeply you want to take the man-made doctrine as a personal belief.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
opethfan
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:00 am

I can't help but think of Doug Stanhope's excellent bit: "You create your own Christianity"

NSFW language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5DaTIF1a0
 
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fr8mech
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:42 am

It sounds like you're questioning. Nothing wrong with that. Have you spoken to your priest/rabbi/imam/minister/pastor/shaman about your doubts?

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

You live your life the way you want to live your life.

As some have said, you do what you think is morally correct, for yourself. Yes, you may be deviating from doctrine, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can toe the line on any of the organized religions.

Understand something: the more deviations you make and the further you get from "your" religion, you should probably start questioning whether you are really part of that religion and not some other religion...or none at all...or something unique to you.
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A320ajm
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:58 am

I would say that the question you asked is one of the reasons I am an atheist, and why I like being a scientist. There are so many religious teachings that are immoral and inaccurate (all religions I have learnt about anyway!)

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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:05 am

Quoting opethfan (Reply 20):
I can't help but think of Doug Stanhope's excellent bit: "You create your own Christianity"

But why do you believe in Jesus when the very message that told you that he exists was a message corrupted by lies?

And what about the utter lack of historical evidence that he actually existed?

You do not need a superstition to be a good person.
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opethfan
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):

If you're speaking to opethfan, I can assure you that I'm a comfortable agnostic. I look forward to the day when "religion" is a synonym for "delusion."

As for the Doug Stanhope bit, that's what he's lambasting. The fact that only one person in his audience admitted to believing in Christianity speaks a lot to his material. He's mocking the hypocrisy and the foolishness of the concept and how it needs to be forced upon kids to be believable, because otherwise we'd disregard it as quickly as we disregard Ancient Aliens.
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):

A message that has been falsified may still contain a grain of truth.

As to the utter lack of evidence, it would be truer to say that there is little evidence about the life of Jesus, when he was born or died, yet there are writings that show a widespread belief that he did. Historical evidence about the details of his life may be poor but the historicity of his existence is generally accepted by modern scholars.

Whether he was the son if God, a personification of God, or simply a prophet is another matter - one the three Abrahamic religions have been disputing for centuries.
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tailskid
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 25):

Do the facts that Jesus left no writings at all and what early Christian writings that do exist, weren't written until many years (decades?) after his demise, give you reason to question the whole affair? Is the bedrock of Christianity actually found in John or Pauls' imagination rather than Jesus' teachings?
 
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

Simple, stop believing. The bible is mostly made up, written and rewritten by thousands of people over too many years to count. The only bit of the bible which is actually attributed to be the word of god is the ten commandments, all the rest is pure fantasy.
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 26):
Is the bedrock of Christianity actually found in John or Pauls' imagination rather than Jesus' teachings?

The answer to that may depend on which version of Christianity one adopts. Certainly, from the earliest times there was disagreement between the community in Jerusalem and the followers of Paul. In Western Christendom the views of Paul and Peter appear to have prevailed but those views were not universally accepted. The plethora of writings regarded as sacred by different communities is evidence of that.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
The only bit of the bible which is actually attributed to be the word of god is the ten commandments, all the rest is pure fantasy.

Religion is more than reading the bible. For a start, what we call the bible is not central to many religious people -Confuscianism, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism ... the list goes on. Secondly, those religions that recognise some form of the bible, be it Torah or Tanakh, the Old and New Testaments, or the Qur'an also draw on other writings, commentaries and apocrypha. Examples include but are not limited to Mishna and Talmud, Hadith and other rulings.

The very existence of such writings is indicative that religious leaders felt that not all questions could be answered simply by reference to scripture. This meant that relgious principals could expand and adapt while remaining true to tbeir basic premise: honour God and treat others justly.

Of course, that has not always been the outcome. Just as religion is man-made, it is interpreted by men for their benefit. That has often resulted in lip service to the worship of God and an absense of treating others justly.

[Edited 2015-02-19 06:11:03]
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Kiwirob
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
Religion is more than reading the bible. For a start, what we call the bible is not central to many religious people -Confuscianism, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism ... the list goes on. Secondly, those religions that recognise some form of the bible, be it Torah or Tanakh, the Old and New Testaments, or the Qur'an also draw on other writings, commentaries and apocrypha. Examples include but are not limited to Mishna and Talmud, Hadith and other rulings.

He's not talking about other religions he's more interested in the god of jews and christians.
 
tailskid
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
He's not talking about other religions he's more interested in the god of jews and christians.

You have to include Muslims in that list, they are also an Abrahamic religion and worship that same God.
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):

He's not talking about other religions he's more interested in the god of jews and christians.

Even so, my point in reply to your assertion is valid. Religious thought, both in Judaism and in Christianity, is not bound up solely in one volume. There are centuries of commentaries and other writings by religious authors, addressing many issues, be they abortion, assisted suicide, euthanasia, the death penalty. While some might be held captive by what they regard as the word of a punitive and vengeful God, others have adopted a more charitable approaches believing that God is love.

The odd thing is that while some people condemn what they see as religious blindness and intolerance, they themselves display similar traits. To me it matters not whether a person believes or disbelieves. How they behave towards others is far more important. But I will say, I much rather meet a religious person who believes in God and treats his neighbour justly than an atheist who claims to love science but hates people. Such an atheist is just as bad as any judgmental sectarian bigot.
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DocLightning
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 25):
A message that has been falsified may still contain a grain of truth.

Yes, but if you're left guessing what is true and what isn't, then it's not worth much.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 25):
As to the utter lack of evidence, it would be truer to say that there is little evidence about the life of Jesus, when he was born or died, yet there are writings that show a widespread belief that he did. Historical evidence about the details of his life may be poor but the historicity of his existence is generally accepted by modern scholars.

That doesn't make it true. Those "modern scholars" have no records, no archaeological evidence, no evidence period. They presume it's true because it's been written all over the place, but there are no records from the time of Jesus to actually confirm that he existed.

The same is true, BTW, of Hippocrates. It's quite possible that Hippocrates was not one man but several men.
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vikkyvik
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
But why do you believe in Jesus when the very message that told you that he exists was a message corrupted by lies?

And what about the utter lack of historical evidence that he actually existed?

You do not need a superstition to be a good person.

No, you don't. Just like I don't need AA to quit drinking. But it sure helped.

And that's basically that - if religion helps you, and helps others, great, have at it.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
slider
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
And what about the utter lack of historical evidence that he actually existed?

There's a shit ton of evidence that the man Jesus existed.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
There's a shit ton of evidence that the man Jesus existed.

Such as ___________?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
There are many things in the bible I find abhorrent.

But youre a Jewish rabbi, what has the Christian bible got to do with you? there is more abhorrent stuff in Talmud.
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:00 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 36):

But youre a Jewish rabbi, what has the Christian bible got to do with you?

The Pentateuch, the first five books of the bible, is based on Torah. What Christians refer to as the Old Testament is based on what is known in Judaism as Tanakh. Christianity borrows very heavily from Judaism, which given that Jesus was a child of the people of Israel is not surprising.
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A332DTW
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:04 am

I don't know the entire Qu'ran by heart, but I do know that its text was not written overnight. Its teachings and verses were compiled through 26 years, in times of peace and war. It was also written at a time period where advanced science and free thought was not all too prevalent. So I take the teachings with a grain of salt.

When it comes to things like sexual orientation being a choice or some kind of test, for example, I think religion is wrong on that. I know that through modern science and biology that it's no more a choice than being left-handed. I also know through personal experience, seeing the pain a good friend of mine had to go through being gay in a conservative Catholic household. Being treated like subhuman is not something any sane person would ever choose.

Another example is drinking alcohol. It's forbidden because it's essentially poison for the body, and I think that's logical. But I know that a few beers here and there with my pizza won't kill me. I am aware of the sins I commit. I do my best to ask God for forgiveness through prayer, and fasts during Ramadan. That's between me and God.

Bacon... I never ate it and never plan to, but that's because I can't fathom eating meat from an animal as filthy as the pig. I know that Islam forbids it and I understand why it would. I do my best to eat Halal, but it's not all to convenient either so I understand that some Burger King here and there won't kill me.

In reality many of the things I structure my life around has more to do with the way I was raised than religion, really. Islam is there for my understanding of life, the universe, and why I'm here and where I'll end up.

Again, I take it all with a grain of salt. My religion is between me and God, and no one else.
 
tailskid
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 37):
Christianity borrows very heavily from Judaism, which given that Jesus was a child of the people of Israel is not surprising.

For the first 100 years, most or all Christians considered themselves Jews and were looked upon as wayward Jews by the rest of the Jews. In the first century CE there were many Jewish sects, the followers of Jesus were just another one of those.

This fragmentation continued on with the Christians (until the present day) although there was a major break with the Jews which occurred about 100 years after Jesus' time. In 132 CE, the Jewish Temple Cult (the faction of Jews that the Christians had sprang from) ambushed a Roman legion an slaughtered them to a man. The Roman response was to exterminate the Temple cult once and for all, a process which took several years. It was at this time that the Christians of the Levant made a clean break with the Jewish religion, although there were followers of Jesus in outlying regions who still considered themselves Jews for several hundred years after that.

The first attempt to unify the disparate Christian communities came in the fourth century at the council of Nicea when the Roman emperor Constantine took the Christian hierarchy in as partners in the affairs of the Empire.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 31):
There are centuries of commentaries and other writings by religious authors, addressing many issues, be they abortion, assisted suicide, euthanasia, the death penalty.

But non of those count for much.

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
There's a shit ton of evidence that the man Jesus existed.

There's actually very little, there are only 2 ancient texts with passing mention of Jesus that can be authenticated. All the rest are religious mumbo jumbo which cannot be trusted or authenticated.

Quote:
The sources for the historicity of Jesus are mainly Christian sources, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted.

There are three mentions of Jesus in non-Christian sources which have been used in historical analyses of the existence of Jesus.[33] He is mentioned twice in the works of 1st-century Roman historian Josephus and once in the works of the 2nd-century Roman historian Tacitus.
Quoting A332DTW (Reply 38):
Bacon... I never ate it and never plan to, but that's because I can't fathom eating meat from an animal as filthy as the pig.

If you think a pig is filthy you should see the conditions beef cattle in the US live under before they are slaughtered, it would make you weep. It's make any piggery I've seen look like a room at the Ritz.

BTW jews only declare pigs unclean because they don't ruminate, it has nothing to do with anything else. If you think pigs are actually dirtier than cattle or sheep you're spent you life listening to stupid people who don't know crap about animals. It's about time you educated yourself on pigs. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/the-j...of-pigs-smart-clean-and-lean/2126/

Jews don't eat camel for the same reason, even though like the pig, cattle and sheep, it's cloven hoofed, but does not ruminate, Muslims on the other hand do eat camel.
 
777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 37):

I know the Judeo-Christiant bit, but still he should refer to his holy books and their abhorrent conetent,. or is there an agenda on here?

How would you liek it if I as a Muslim were to start this topic and say I find alot of content in the bible abhorrent, I'm sure I would be attacked out of teh fourm and the quran and Islam would get its good share of insults, but nothing here to this rabbi, his reigion and religions books.

[Edited 2015-02-20 10:34:10]
 
A332DTW
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
f you think a pig is filthy you should see the conditions beef cattle in the US live under before they are slaughtered, it would make you weep

I know. That's why I try to find Halal and organic meat as best I can.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
If you think pigs are actually dirtier than cattle or sheep you're spent you life listening to stupid people who don't know crap about animals. It's about time you educated yourself on pigs. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/the-j...2126/

I've read about pigs out of curiosity as to why it's forbidden in Islam. Based on some of the things I read, I wouldn't eat pork meat out of concerns for my own health.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 41):
How would you liek it if I as a Muslim were to start this topic and say I find alot of content in the bible abhorrent

You would be correct, a lot of the content in the bible is made up fairy tails which people take as the truth, the simple fact is the is very little to no proof that anything in the bible ever happened.
 
zrs70
Topic Author
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
You would be correct, a lot of the content in the bible is made up fairy tails which people take as the truth, the simple fact is the is very little to no proof that anything in the bible ever happened.

Reminds me of something that happened recently:

A guy came to my office and said, "If I could only see miracles like the ones in the bible, maybe I would believe."

I reminded him that the same people who, according to the bible, experienced the parting of the Sea of Reeds (Red Sea) are the same ones that built the Golden Calf.

In other words, the miracles of the bible really didn't do anything to solid faith.

Faith is about something much different than blindly following a deity.
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777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):

But alot of pseudo-Christians would come to defend the faith.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13032
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 42):
I've read about pigs out of curiosity as to why it's forbidden in Islam. Based on some of the things I read, I wouldn't eat pork meat out of concerns for my own health.

I'm really curious to know what the reasons your found out were?

What I find interesting is that pigs are one of the few animals that we eat who will not crap where they find and eat there food, cows and sheep don't have such issues.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 42):

I know. That's why I try to find Halal and organic meat as best I can.

Halal says nothing about how the animal is raised and the conditions it lives in, it's only about how the animal is killed. A lot of animal welfare organisations have an issue with how animals are killed for halal and kosher meat, allowing exemptions for religious organisations of animal welfare standards is disgraceful and not necessary in today's world.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:27 pm

If you are honorable, honest, considerate, industrious and respect your family and friends, and believe in and follow such, you will have as much chance as I and the next person to be saved in heaven if it exists. Can one who lives a good life be condemned to hell for not attending a service of any type, or any religion ? I do not think so. It has never made sense to me. I believe that this was not an accident, what it is I have no idea.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
planemaker
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:33 pm

I think that it is really interesting what is going on in the Catholic church. I am gobsmacked at the papacy swing from hard right (the past two popes) to the moderate pope of today. The upcoming encyclical will impact domestic politics (and perhaps even the presidential primaries). For example, Boehner is already coming out against it.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13032
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 48):
I am gobsmacked at the papacy swing from hard right (the past two popes)

JP2 might have been a religious conservative buy he was very progressive in social matters, hardly right wing at all.

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