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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 38):
I can't fathom eating meat from an animal as filthy as the pig. I know that Islam forbids it and I understand why it would.

Do you though?

...there's a much more sinister hypothesized-reason that so many ancient cultures forbade consumption of pork, and it has nothing to do with disease or parasitology, which they knew nothing of.

Guess what meat is most similar to human flesh, arguably even more so than the apes? Hogflesh.
So similar in fact, that it's why we're able to grow transplantable organs (and insulin) within pigs.

Similar texture, similar smell when burned (ask any EMT), and allegedly: similar taste.

Ancient cultures knew it well, and were terrified that people would turn to cannibalism in times of lean, if they were accustomed to the taste of pork. All the secondary excuses (lack of rumination, etc) were just offshoots of that base idea.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
What I find interesting is that pigs are one of the few animals that we eat who will not crap where they find and eat there food,

That's not true at all.

Perhaps domestic pigs, but anyone who's had to deal with feral hogs/boars knows that they'll piss/crap all over their food and even water supply... if for nothing than to turn other animals off of it.

God help anyone with a barn/larder that they raid, you'll have pig feces all over it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:48 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 41):
if I as a Muslim were to start this topic and say I find alot of content in the bible abhorrent,

I wouldn't object for the simple reason it would suggest a capacity for critical thinking. That would be conditioned by intent. No reasonable could object to genuine discussion of differences in good faith. But of course there are plenty who would prefer to sneer and attack out of a sense of superiority. Topics started with thst intent are hardly productive, though they may sometimes prove amusing.

As a Muslim, you would indeed find some things abhorrent - the idea of Jesus dying on the cross and the resurrection is generally rejected by Muslims. The very notion that Jesus is anything more than a prophet is considered blasphemous due to the simple expression of faith: lā ilāha illā-llāh (There is no God but God).

As to the OP's motives, only he can know what they they are. But his original question is a valid one and, if you recall, he posted another thread which in some ways asked "do people expect too much of their religious leaders?" In that thread was a link that included views of rabbis as well as priests. Perhaps the thread is less about others and more about his own doubts. If so, I am sure he can work it through and do what he thinks is right.
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zrs70
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 51):
As to the OP's motives, only he can know what they they are. But his original question is a valid one and, if you recall, he posted another thread which in some ways asked "do people expect too much of their religious leaders?" In that thread was a link that included views of rabbis as well as priests. Perhaps the thread is less about others and more about his own doubts. If so, I am sure he can work it through and do what he thinks is right.

My mind is broadened everyday when I connect with others.

Do I have a motive with this thread? It's true curiosity of how others within religion wrestle with doctrine they don't agree with.

There's plenty within Judaism I struggle with. But knowing that I come out of a tradition that is expected to wrestle with theology, I'm proud of it!
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Aaron747
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:54 am

^
It's too late for me to go back, but if the rabbi I mentioned in my story had thought more like you do, I might have taken a different course.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 52):
But knowing that I come out of a tradition that is expected to wrestle with theology, I'm proud of it!

A tradition of enquiry, not only in Judaism but in other religions, has led to advances in philosophy and science, as well as social improvements.
Crawl, walk, fly into the future
 
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777222LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:06 am

I am gay. I live in Oklahoma, grew up a Southern Baptist. Conversion Therapy was performed on me when I was a teenager, though my parents never knew it was happening to me, nor did they consent to it. I'm now 35, and I'm still gay. I abhor what religion has done to gay people, the psychological trauma it has put on them, including myself. Religion will die out, if they don't change their stances. I am now so far removed from God at this point, the mention of God or church makes me cringe, and thoughts of stereotypes flood my mind. Is it wrong of me to think this way? Perhaps, but I've been hurt so much by something that was supposed to have unconditional love for me, I just want nothing to do with God or religion in general. If religion wants to continue to survive, it needs to stop turning away people based on such petty, nonsensical ideals.
 
777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 51):

Actually no, the only offensive bits of the bible to me are the ones that Imply religious figures mentioned in there indulged in incest and other vile stuff.

The rest of your points are only disturbing to the hardcore Muslims many of us are really not disturbed by Christians take of things, to us Jesus Christ was saved by God unharmed,, he was prophet of God blessed with miracles, born miraculously, spoke as an infant, performed healings , we dont beleve any other prophet will return except Jesus Christ.

Islam acknowledges things about him there must be some truth to it why would it deny certain things and accept others,? why not deny it all? why does it accept he is coming back and not Mohammed, considering alot accuse him of having created the religion himself they could have made up the lie that Mohammed will come back and every Muslim would have believed it.

Even the bible says in many places God is some one else and Jesus Christ too refers to him as Father, clealry not claiming he is God.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 55):
Religion will die out, if they don't change their stances.

Doesn't appear to be any evidence of that....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tailskid
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 57):
Quoting 777222LR (Reply 55):
Religion will die out, if they don't change their stances.

Doesn't appear to be any evidence of that....

Yea there is. Religion has been on the wane for a long time even here in the US. People used to be far more under the control of religion than they are now. And the trend continues. In a way the Islamists are doing us all a favor by pointing out how wacko religion really is.
 
A332DTW
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:00 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
I'm really curious to know what the reasons your found out were?

Much of what I read was in magazines and some online research to entertain my own curiosity. I was interested in pigs' anatomy, digestive process, claims of trichinosis, etc. I already knew the reasoning behind it's restrictions in Islam.

Regardless of my faith, I would not eat pork. If I can't stand the smell of certain cooking, I can't eat it. Pork smells horrid to me.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Halal says nothing about how the animal is raised and the conditions it lives in, it's only about how the animal is killed. A lot of animal welfare organisations have an issue with how animals are killed for halal and kosher meat, allowing exemptions for religious organisations of animal welfare standards is disgraceful and not necessary in today's world.


I think their concerns should be focused elsewhere if they really care about animals' abuse.

Frankly, I don't think you really understand a lot about Halal. It has as much to do with how the animal is cared for as to how it's slaughtered and prepared for consumption.

http://mideastfood.about.com/od/middleeasternfood101/a/halalfoods.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal#Dhabihah:_method_of_slaughter

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 50):
Guess what meat is most similar to human flesh, arguably even more so than the apes? Hogflesh.
So similar in fact, that it's why we're able to grow transplantable organs (and insulin) within pigs.

Similar texture, similar smell when burned (ask any EMT), and allegedly: similar taste.

Ancient cultures knew it well, and were terrified that people would turn to cannibalism in times of lean, if they were accustomed to the taste of pork. All the secondary excuses (lack of rumination, etc) were just offshoots of that base idea.

I was not aware of that. Kind of disturbing, really...
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 58):
Religion has been on the wane for a long time even here in the US.

Indeed, but there's a HUGE threshold between "on the wane" and "dying out." Dogmatic religion has not crossed it, and there's zilch evidence that it ever will.

It's not alone, for example: Paganism has been on the wane in western cultures for millennia, but it has died out, and there's no sign it ever will.

Institutionalized racism/misogyny/homophobia have been "on the wane" for decades, but it hasn't died out and there's no sign it ever well.

Ditto religion.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Kiwirob
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 59):

I was not aware of that. Kind of disturbing, really...

The Germans at Stalingrad and the Russians at Leningrad ended up eating the other other white meat. When needs must you gotta do what you gotta do.

Love love love bacon, and a pork roast on Sundays.

 
TheCommodore
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 59):
Frankly, I don't think you really understand a lot about Halal. It has as much to do with how the animal is cared for as to how it's slaughtered and prepared for consumption.

The live meat trade from Australia to Islamic countries is abhorrent. With wide spread evidence of animal abuse aboard these ships, whilst on their way to the destination. these countries supposedly have STRICK Halal requirements.

No such concerns about the care of the animals on board are expressed though, once the livestock is unloaded at port side ????

Images of people buying live sheep etc, and being thrown into the boots of cars, violently and driven off, obviously in great distress....

Nobody controls this in the slightest....

And you say............ "I don't think you really understand a lot about Halal. It has as much to do with how the animal is cared for

I can say from where I stand, thats rubbish, sorry. Id really like to agree with you, but I think it is

[Edited 2015-02-21 00:48:30]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
A320ajm
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:59 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 38):

Biologists have determined that pigs are actually one of the cleanest animals - it's a myth they're 'filthy'.

I find the Halal practice of killing animals horrendous. I watched a documentary on it which had footage of cows being hung by their feet upside down, then having their neck cut. They cry in agony as they bleed to death. Some of the deaths last a long time. Whoever thinks that is humane has something wrong with them. A bolt gun to the head is instaneous and puts the animal in no suffering. I don't care that people say the animals are well looked after - killing by that method is sickening. Don't get me wrong, I want the animal to be raised well - I always eat free range for example.

A320ajm
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777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 52):

I understand that, but why pick on bible of I were to start a thread like this I would talk about quran, not the talmud, tohrah, bible or any other holy book, then the other faith could join in about their religions. and critiques of that.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 62):

Yes its unbelievable and shameful, I'm seriously considering turning vegetarian but that can be boring, nothing liike meat with a salad to balance things out.

Quoting a320ajm (Reply 63):
Biologists have determined that pigs are actually one of the cleanest animals - it's a myth they're 'filthy'.

Biologists can have an agenda, but only rere few secular Muslims will touch it even if they binge on booze, you will find booze parties galore even in Pakistan but no one serving any pork, back till the early 80s a few supermarkets in an upscale area of Karachi used to sell canned ham but not anymore.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61):

I have to admit pork looks delicious and succulent, when BBC had a 24 hour food channel uptil a few years ago I used to watch it avidly and all the wine and pork dishes really made me crave that stuff, goes onto show how one can get influenced.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 58):
Yea there is. Religion has been on the wane for a long time even here in the US. People used to be far more under the control of religion than they are now. And the trend continues. In a way the Islamists are doing us all a favor by pointing out how wacko religion really is.

Its been mentioned in Islam through prophet Mohammed's sayings, religions will fade even Islam and only a handful of belivers will be left, people will mock religion and wonder about it just like in the days of ignorence pre-religion.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 50):

Guess what meat is most similar to human flesh, arguably even more so than the apes? Hogflesh.
So similar in fact, that it's why we're able to grow transplantable organs (and insulin) within pigs.

Not surprising its clearly mentioned in quran, some communnities were turned into apes and pigs, however the ruling not to eat pork isnt based on that but on its hygiene and what ever vermin dwell in its flesh, even on BBC Food chefs used to say cook the meat very well.

[Edited 2015-02-21 09:41:33]
 
A320ajm
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 64):

You can't just dismiss scientific evidence on the basis that some may 'have an agenda'. I have done some research and found pork is the most consumed meat in the world, and dates back the furthest of all meats human have consumed. As long as the pork is cooked thoroughly, it's no more risky than eating any other meat. In some parts of Europe, pork is actually eaten raw.
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
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DocLightning
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
Jews don't eat camel for the same reason, even though like the pig, cattle and sheep, it's cloven hoofed, but does not ruminate, Muslims on the other hand do eat camel.

The Kashrut (rules of Kosher) are much stricter than the rules for Halal. All food that is Kosher is, by definition, Halal. But there are many things (like shellfish) that are Halal.

There are things about the Kashrut that make perfect sense. Wash your hands before you eat. Don't eat shellfish (which is what they tell you when you visit a developing nation). Don't eat pork (which, prior to the modern era, was a major cause of trichinosis). Cook your food. Don't eat carnivores (carnivores are rare and help control rodent and other pest populations). They might have noticed that people who followed these habits didn't get sick as much.

And then there are things that make no sense (like specifying the weight of a piece of bread for which you can bless) and not mixing meat and dairy (maybe there was some justification for this), and avoiding fish without scales. But then again, the Bible defines a whale as a fish, so go figure. They might have also thought they noticed that people who followed habits like these didn't get sick as much, either. That's the problem with not having developed science yet.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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A332DTW
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 62):
And you say............ "I don't think you really understand a lot about Halal. It has as much to do with how the animal is cared for

I can say from where I stand, thats rubbish, sorry. Id really like to agree with you, but I think it is

I can't attest to what those companies do. I know the farms here in Michigan that we visit about twice during the summer treat their animals well and I know the halal grocery stores we buy from get their livestock from farms like those... local farmers. What you're referring to is no different from the major livestock distributors that do far worse things to their animals. Take a look at the video below...

Quoting a320ajm (Reply 63):
Biologists have determined that pigs are actually one of the cleanest animals - it's a myth they're 'filthy'.

And there are biologists who would rebuke that.

Quoting a320ajm (Reply 63):
I find the Halal practice of killing animals horrendous. I watched a documentary on it which had footage of cows being hung by their feet upside down, then having their neck cut. They cry in agony as they bleed to death. Some of the deaths last a long time. Whoever thinks that is humane has something wrong with them. A bolt gun to the head is instaneous and puts the animal in no suffering. I don't care that people say the animals are well looked after - killing by that method is sickening. Don't get me wrong, I want the animal to be raised well - I always eat free range for example.

I can't attest to what supposed documentary you watched or to what those farmers and companies do with their livestock. Mass distribution of livestock is ugly in general. If you think that's horrendous, I don't know how you would stomach this documentary... http://youtu.be/C8q5pDiglIA

Or this newsclip... http://youtu.be/PFXhfLOWK5I

And how humane you would think something like this is... http://youtu.be/Nmkj5gq1cQU

[Edited 2015-02-21 15:17:48]
 
777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 66):
But there are many things (like shellfish) that are Halal.

Shellfish is something that is disputed,,as its not considered fish but people have it. The argument is that only creatures that stay under water are halal and thats whats been mentioned in religion. anything that crawls out onto land is not as its not been named or probably has harmful effects.

Quoting a320ajm (Reply 65):
I

But something worse has come up, they are connected to humans, now proven scientifically but mentioned in quran from day one, all the more reason to avoid it for some of us who might have been tempted trying it out occassionally.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 34):
There's a shit ton of evidence that the man Jesus existed.

Show me. I'm honestly not attached to either opinion on this. Either he existed or he didn't. His mere existence doesn't mean he was the Son of God.

Quoting 777way (Reply 68):
Shellfish is something that is disputed,,as its not considered fish but people have it. The argument is that only creatures that stay under water are halal and thats whats been mentioned in religion. anything that crawls out onto land is not as its not been named or probably has harmful effects.

I know I've seen SV, EK, EY, etc. offer shrimp and scallops on their F-class menus. I'm not sure if I've seen crab. There are some disputed fish in Judaism, as to whether swordfish is kosher (only fish with scales are kosher, so shark isn't).

Oddly, the kashrut forbid eating insects except locusts. Four kinds. But people are unsure exactly which kind of locust is mentioned in Torah. An article on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_locust

It's exactly this kind of legalistic nonsense in Judaism that convinced me that it was all a scam.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:16 am

Interesting, Muslims are allowed to eat locusts too.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 70):
Interesting, Muslims are allowed to eat locusts too.

You know how in Halal the animal is to be killed quickly and with minimal pain and then be hung up neck-down so the blood drains out?

Same for Kosher.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Boeing717200
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):

A very wise minister once told me the following:

Religion shouldn't change for man. It defeats the purpose. You either accept the teachings and live by them the best you can or you don't. If you don't agree with them, find a faith you can agree with or maybe it's best to have none at all. Don't mock people for their faith either, that just makes you an ass and depending how far you take it a bigot.

[Edited 2015-02-22 08:31:02]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 67):

And there are biologists who would rebuke that.

Please find a link to any paper published by a biologist who will agree with you, go one, I had a wee look and all I could find are religious texts, which don't count.
 
A332DTW
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 73):

You know not every periodical is posted online, right? Visit your local library or go on Wikipedia for pigs and look under diseases. You'll find references there. I'm not going to go back and forth on whether the pig is a filthy animal or not. How it got so far into talking about pigs after all I did was bring up bacon and my utter distaste for pork, I don't know. You like eating pork meat that's great, but you're not going to convince me to ever try it.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 74):

Pigs were no doubt filthy at the time, in fact pig was a wild animal. In today's world, that is no longer the case unless you're a third world country. I'll happily eat pork, but I'll be damned if I eat a goat. Goats are nasty.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
A320ajm
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:08 pm

I went to my Grandmas for Sunday dinner today and she had cooked pork. I couldn't help but smile after getting into this debate!
P.s. It was delicious!  
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
How do you handle being part of a religion when you believe it is wrong about certain things?

Ignore it if you can or google apologist arguments to ease your mind for a while. Maybe you can keep it in check for the rest of your life. I could not.

Maybe there is a very good reason you find some things in your religion abhorrent... why should the answer be "force an answer that lets me keep my religion?" Even if there is a correct religion, odds are yours (you in general) is wrong

Used to believe it was all "complex and mysterious..." now I realize it's most likely a compilation of bronze age mythology just like the thousands of other religions that I never believed in and are 'obviously wrong' (yet mine was special and arbitrarily not wrong)
 
SaschaYHZ
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 17):
All anybody can do, believer or non-believer, is to try to treat others with respect or at least not intentionally harm them.

Tis wins the forum today  
 
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garpd
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:53 pm

Religion does not maketh the man, but his actions do.

IE: Your actions are what makes you a good guy or a dick. Not some teachings in a book written hundreds of years after the supposed events (this seems to go for almost every religion)

In other words: Don't be a dick.
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planemaker
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 49):
JP2 might have been a religious conservative buy he was very progressive in social matters, hardly right wing at all.

In some cases, yes. However, in the face of over population among the poorest of the poor his strident ban on birth control exacerbated the problem. I would say that JP2 was hyper conservative about human sexuality and published that sex should only happen in the context of procreating. Having sex and trying to avoid procreation was immoral to JP2 (e.g. BJs were verbotten under JP2). At least the current pope talks straight forward about these matters and doesn't use dogma.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Kiwirob
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 75):
I'll happily eat pork, but I'll be damned if I eat a goat. Goats are nasty.

Gotta agree, I really can't stand goat, you'd think it should be tasty like lamb, but no.
 
777way
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:40 pm

Isnt Goat called Mutton, like Sheep is Lamb, Deer is Venison, Cow is Beef?
 
rwessel
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RE: When You Believe Religious Teachings Are Wrong....

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 82):
Isnt Goat called Mutton, like Sheep is Lamb, Deer is Venison, Cow is Beef?

No, usually lamb and mutton are both sheep. One young, the other old (roughly).

Sometimes adult goat is called mutton as well, but chevon is more common. Young goat is (most commonly) kid.

Venison is most often deer, but can be used for any game animal.

While cow is beef, young cow is veal.

Now I'm hungry.

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos