Spain: Russia Sanctions 'beneficial For No One'

Kiwirob · Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:50 am

I can't say I disagree with this statement at all, congratulations on the Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo for coming out and stating the obvious.

Quote:
He also noted that Russia’s counter-ban on EU food imports is hurting the Spanish economy and said the EU must take Russia’s interests into account in its relations with Ukraine.

“Sanctions are inflicting great damage to the Spanish economy … We have big losses, especially in the agriculture sector”, he said.

“I think that we need to somehow include Russia’s interests in the association agreement between Ukraine and the European Union - this agreement needs to be complemented by co-operation with Russia.”

https://euobserver.com/foreign/127940

As Putin would say

Francoflier · Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:59 pm

Right, so we should just conveniently forget our political stands on human rights whenever we feel it's in the way of making more money?
I guess it's fine. So when do we start selling stuff to Kim Jung Un?

Spain ran its own economy to the ground and now thinks doing business with Putin would kinda sorta help fix that mess a wee bit? Hey, there weren't any Spaniards in MH17 after all.

And what exactly are 'Russia's interests' in Ukraine?
It's fairly clear what Russia is doing: The political tide has turned in Ukraine, but Putin decided the rebellion in the East side of the country was enough of an excuse to invade it so he could keep Crimea and maintain its military presence in the black sea rather than try to negotiate with a government he doesn't directly control anymore... How is that even defensible?

I don't doubt for an instant that the Ukraine crisis will somehow end in a negotiated compromise, and I'm fully aware of the double standards many western nations hold when it comes with negotiating with shady foreign political figures, but I'd be damned if Putin gets his way without at least an attempt from the West at serious punitive measures, even if they ideally should not target the entire Russian population.

Building on and expanding the Magnitsky act would be a good start, for instance...

Kiwirob · Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:11 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Right, so we should just conveniently forget our political stands on human rights whenever we feel it's in the way of making more money?

yes, I have no issue throwing Ukraine under the bus. Just the same as the US had every intention of doing the same in Iraq.

Aesma · Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:37 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if that guy did get something from Putin...

Danny · Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
yes, I have no issue throwing Ukraine under the bus.

In a naive belief that Putin will stop at Ukraine. Just like in the 1930s Austria and Czechoslovakia were thrown under the bus to keep Hitler happy and suposedly avoid a war. Except that it doesn't work. We all know that Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine. Any sign of weakness or lack of unity like the quoted message he takes as an ecouragment to move forward.

The sanctions do make deep sense - they harm Russia economically thus in the long term reduce their ability to finance their huge and growing military. This is exactly the way that Ronald Regan won the first cold war in the 1980s - economicaly.

Kiwirob · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
In a naive belief that Putin will stop at Ukraine. Just like in the 1930s Austria and Czechoslovakia were thrown under the bus to keep Hitler happy and suposedly avoid a war

I would be a foolish person this have any belief that Putin would mess with a NATO or EU country, they are a different kettle of fish than Ukraine. You must also remember that didn't give a crap about Poland and Czechoslovakia back in the 1930's, most people probably couldn't point ehm out on a map then either. It's different today, eveyone has significanlty more access to information than ever before.

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
The sanctions do make deep sense

Except when you look at the list of santioned items, it's not very effective. This is the Norwegian sanctions list https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrift/2014-08-15-1076#KAPITTEL_4

As the good Minister from Spain has pointed out it's hurting Spain. Spain is also a long way from Ukraine, why should Spanish people suffer because a bunch of Ukrainians messed up there country and got into a pickle.

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
they harm Russia economically thus in the long term reduce their ability to finance their huge and growing military.

There military today is significanlty smaller than it was right up to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Revelation · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
I can't say I disagree with this statement at all

Then what can you say? That it's OK for Putin to destabilize and thus destroy places that have large numbers of Russians just to keep Russian citizen's eyes off the fact that their corrupt country is bankrupt? By your measure perhaps the US should cede parts of Miami Beach and Queens NY to Putin's Russia right now and avoid the messiness.

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
We all know that Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine.

Certainly he won't if there are no consequences to his actions.

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
The sanctions do make deep sense - they harm Russia economically thus in the long term reduce their ability to finance their huge and growing military. This is exactly the way that Ronald Regan won the first cold war in the 1980s - economicaly.

AirPacific747 · Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):

Yep, and next week New Zealand and Norway will be next in Putins' vision of taking over the world and who cares because it would be more beneficial for us financially just to sit back and watch the action unfold.

Tugger · Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
Spain: Russia Sanctions 'beneficial For No One'

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
I can't say I disagree with this statement at all, congratulations on the Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo for coming out and stating the obvious.

I think he is missing the point that sanctions are not supposed to be "beneficial". For anyone really. At all.

They are punishment for transgressions. Their intent is to dissuade people/countries from doing things that are harmful to others.

Let face it "consequences" and penalties almost always cost something to those imposing them.

Tugg

[Edited 2015-03-11 10:38:40]

zckls04 · Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 8):
I think he is missing the point that sanctions are not supposed to be "beneficial". For anyone really. At all.

Exactly. Sanctions are by definition the cessation of something- usually trade. That trade wouldn't exist if it wasn't beneficial to both parties. Therefore ceasing that trade must obviously be detrimental to both parties.

The idea is that it's more detrimental to one party than the other, and that's certainly the case here. They are working better than anybody expected, albeit assisted by the price of oil.

Hopefully these sanctions are there for the long haul; Russia needs to pull itself out of its old expansionist mentality.

TheCommodore · Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Right, so we should just conveniently forget our political stands on human rights whenever we feel it's in the way of making more money?

Why not. Isn that the way its always been. Money rules, and will always rule...

Remember, its the thing that makes the world go round and round.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 8):
Let face it "consequences" and penalties almost always cost something to those imposing them.

Well said.

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
a bunch of Ukrainians messed up there country and got into a pickle.

I know the pressure to buy into the Kremlins fake history is strong, but it was a bunch of Russians in uniform that messed up Ukraine.

Best regards
Thomas

Kiwirob · Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
I know the pressure to buy into the Kremlins fake history is strong, but it was a bunch of Russians in uniform that messed up Ukraine.

You might like to think that but Ukraine has been messed up since way way way before this kicked off last year.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 7):
Yep, and next week New Zealand and Norway will be next in Putins' vision of taking over the world and who cares because it would be more beneficial for us financially just to sit back and watch the action unfold.

Except Norway is a NATO member state, so Putin isn't going anywhere near it, and New Zealand is too far away for him to be able to do anything with anyway, so I'm feeling pretty safe and secure.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Then what can you say? That it's OK for Putin to destabilize and thus destroy places

It's no different than the US destabilising and destroying Iraq, but because it was the US doing the destabilising it was ok. Ukraine is minor compared to the mess the US made of Iraq, about 5000 dead in Ukraine v over 1 million dead since the US's misadventure in Iraq, it's not even close.

tommy1808 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):

You might like to think that but Ukraine has been messed up since way way way before this kicked off last year.

You are totally right. That is why it was about time to get rid of some of the Russian influence and its puppet government, that did the messing up.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):
Except Norway is a NATO member state, so Putin isn't going anywhere near it,

Well, in 1940 France was the biggest trading partner of the Deutsches Reich and had a slightly larger, much better equipped army. Heck, most of the German tanks coudn´t scratch the paint on most French tanks. They should have been able to hold...... Germany attacked anyways. Operation Barbarossa was just plain insanity if you consider the numbers, the USSR had almost 10 times the combat aircraft, 6 times the tanks, more men, more guns, more fuel, more everything...... the USSR produced more artillery pieces in 5 month than the German Army could mass at the front at all. If the guy in charge is deluded enough, objective reality isn´t the biggest part of the decision making process, and we are talking about the guy that figured the world would just go, shrug off an invasion of an independent country and be like "oh well, let him just have Crimea"....

best regards
Thomas

AirPacific747 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:55 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):

Well I'm sure you wouldn't be fine with the rest of the world just sitting back and watching in case Putin did attack. Double standards?

wingman · Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:54 pm

Spain should be very careful. There are significant numbers of Russians in Andalucia and I'm sure the RT researchers could find El Putin some vague historical connection to the Motherland. Maybe land a 1000 Spetnatz troopers in Sevilla posing as traveling flamenco dancers, that would surely be cause for a major fiesta.

Let's face it, if anyone can save Spain's ailing economy it would have to be the bright bulbs from Moscow Central Planning.

TheSonntag · Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:56 pm

Of course Sanctions are of not help for anyone. Nor is invading souvereign countries with tanks and annecting foreign soil.

Using military to change borders comes at a price.

victrola · Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):
It's no different than the US destabilising and destroying Iraq, but because it was the US doing the destabilising it was ok. Ukraine is minor compared to the mess the US made of Iraq, about 5000 dead in Ukraine v over 1 million dead since the US's misadventure in Iraq, it's not even close.

Oh but Ukraine is only at the beginning...

You avoid a question when you bring up the U.S. involvement in the Iraq debacle:

Is Russia's destabilization of Ukraine OK?

I know from your previous comments on several threads that you believe that Ukranians are a hopelessly corrupt people, unworthy of having their own country. Do you believe that Russia with its obvous love for clean governance, democracy and the rule of law will be able to save their Ukranian little brothers?

Kiwirob · Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 13):
You are totally right. That is why it was about time to get rid of some of the Russian influence and its puppet government, that did the messing up.

The Ukrainians didn't need the Russians to help mess it up, they were more than good enough at doing this for themselves, all they needed the Russians for was someone to lay the blame on.

zckls04 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):
It's no different than the US destabilising and destroying Iraq, but because it was the US doing the destabilising it was ok.

Was it? Much of the world disagrees, including many who also disagree with Putin's actions.

Seriously, this "double standards" argument is always a crap one. Find a more cogent defense.

PHX787 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:09 pm

The one thing Spain has never done well in its entire history is respond to economic changes.

You should probably pull out of a market being targeted by sanctions...if you were economically intelligent.

I would've shut down the connections to Russia and sent my agricultural products to more competitive and lucrative markets. Then again, I'm not Spain....not in such a severe economic depression that 25% of the country is out of work. Then again that also has something to do with the rampant socialism going on over there

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Right, so we should just conveniently forget our political stands on human rights whenever we feel it's in the way of making more money?

Here you go. Thank you Francoflier.

Scipio · Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:42 pm

Whatever the Spanish foreign minister says, the EU has rules, and those rules are reasonably effective in blocking corrupt deals with the Kremlin.

The EU just blocked Orban's corrupt USD 12 bn nuclear deal with the Kremlin:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9a646...2-c8c1-11e4-8617-00144feab7de.html

This follows shortly after EU rules torpedoed South Stream.

[Edited 2015-03-12 14:43:35]

bennett123 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:45 pm

iirc, Crimea was actually part of Russia until 1954.

Scipio · Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 22):
iirc, Crimea was actually part of Russia until 1954.

It was part of the Russian Empire from 1783 until 1917, and of the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic from 1945 to 1954. So, it was part of "Russia" for 143 years, out of a history that goes back thousands of years.

Its population was majority Crimean Tatar until Stalin deported the Crimean Tatars in 1945.

So, it was actually "Russian", in the full sense of the word (i.e., Russian-controlled and the majority of the population being Russian), only for 9 years, from 1945 until 1954.

Crimea has always been economically dependent on Ukraine. Without Ukraine, it is an island with inadequate resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea

The original poster has a very poor understanding, not only of how the EU functions, but also of history and economics ...

[Edited 2015-03-12 15:07:48]

[Edited 2015-03-12 15:32:17]

[Edited 2015-03-12 15:34:04]

[Edited 2015-03-12 15:37:22]

wingman · Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 23):
The original poster has a very poor understanding, not only of how the EU functions, but also of history and economics ...

I haven't seen any proof yet that the OP has any understanding of anything. Perhaps you're just being gracious.

WarRI1 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 24):
I haven't seen any proof yet that the OP has any understanding of anything. Perhaps you're just being gracious.

I had my doubts about him before, but with this thread and the reasoning expressed, all doubts are removed. You Sir are correct, he has none. How nice to throw a country under the yoke of an invader/Dictator for money, how moral?

AirPacific747 · Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 24):

He's just a provocateur which he's proven in several threads now.

AIRWALK · Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:57 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Right, so we should just conveniently forget our political stands on human rights whenever we feel it's in the way of making more money?

No we shouldn't, but that is exactly what happens

Kiwirob · Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting victrola (Reply 17):
Oh but Ukraine is only at the beginning...

Where is your proof that this is only the begining?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 23):
It was part of the Russian Empire from 1783 until 1917, and of the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic from 1945 to 1954. So, it was part of "Russia" for 143 years, out of a history that goes back thousands of years.

And only recently part of Ukraine, but has wanted to be free of them since 1991.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 25):
How nice to throw a country under the yoke of an invader/Dictator for money, how moral?

Money always wins out in the end, there's been plenty of conflicts which have killed 10's of thousands to millions but if they are insignificant countries without resources nobody gives a crap, that's how the world works, you can jump up and down screaming about morals or human rights but as long as it's not profitible nobody cares, especially the US.

tommy1808 · Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:05 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
but has wanted to be free of them since 1991.

They wanted to be independent, not part of Russia.

best regards
Thomas

aircatalonia · Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:30 am

Doesn't matter what he says, our foreign minister and the rest of the government will obey their EU masters. There is 0 hope for Spain to have an independent foreign policy under this corrupt government.

To him I would rather say:

TheSonntag · Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:22 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 22):
Crimea was actually part of Russia until 1954.

Well,and whats the point? Kaliningrad was German until 1945, yet we do not want it back, as there are agreements in place which finally settle the situation in Europe.

Kiwirob · Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
Kaliningrad was German until 1945, yet we do not want it back

Why not? They have significanlty better looking women in Kaliningrad than in Germany.

TheSonntag · Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:36 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
Why not? They have significanlty better looking women in Kaliningrad than in Germany.

And the next thing you tell me is that we invaded France in 1940s only so that our soldiers finally could have decent sex.

aircatalonia · Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
Well,and whats the point? Kaliningrad was German until 1945, yet we do not want it back, as there are agreements in place which finally settle the situation in Europe.

There are practically no Germans left in Kaliningrad, whereas Crimea and Donbass are overwhelmingly Russian. The situation is entirely different.

tommy1808 · Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:52 am

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 34):
There are practically no Germans left in Kaliningrad, whereas Crimea and Donbass are overwhelmingly Russian. The situation is entirely different.

yup. Germans living there emigrated to Germany, while Russians on Crimea and the Donbas started a war.

Best regards
Thomas

Kiwirob · Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 33):
And the next thing you tell me is that we invaded France in 1940s only so that our soldiers finally could have decent sex.

Nah by all accounts the German solidiers were pretty well behaved, it was the US soldiers who raped there way across Europe. There's been some pretty interestings article in the press about this lately.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nds-of-German-women-after-WW2.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Germans-end-Second-World-War.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/bo...s-in-world-war-ii-france.html?_r=0

TheSonntag · Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Nah by all accounts the German solidiers were pretty well behaved, it was the US soldiers who raped there way across Europe. There's been some pretty interestings article in the press about this lately.

And so did people of the russian army in Berlin, Japanese soldiers, German soldiers, and so on. I fail to see your point.

victrola · Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
Seriously, this "double standards" argument is always a crap one. Find a more cogent defense.

That and "blame the United States" are the only arguements he ever

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 37):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):Nah by all accounts the German solidiers were pretty well behaved, it was the US soldiers who raped there way across Europe. There's been some pretty interestings article in the press about this lately.

Reading that Russian propaganda again. Your heros the Russians were the ones who raped their way across Europe.

tommy1808 · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 38):
Reading that Russian propaganda again. Your heros the Russians were the ones who raped their way across Europe.

and that german Wehrmacht soldiers did in fact rape less then others was simply because we had a special rapist formations most of those c*nts with the right mindset volunteered for: The Waffe-SS. And they did mix up master race with master raper.

Best regards
Thomas

Kiwirob · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 38):
Your heros the Russians were the ones who raped their way across Europe.

Russians aren't my hero's, it's well known what they did, but what has been glossed over is how GI's treated French, German and other women from occupied countries, I you read some of the articles I posted you'll enlighten yourself. The so called greatest generation were no better than the Russians in this respect.

Quoting victrola (Reply 38):
That and "blame the United States" are the only arguements he ever

Blaming the US is a pretty good argument for a lot of the worlds issues, you guys did a great job messing up the worlds financial markets, have made international air travel a pain in the butt, and love to meddle in other countries politics, usually creating a right royal mess.

mham001 · Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Nah by all accounts the German solidiers were pretty well behaved, it was the US soldiers who raped there way across Europe. There's been some pretty interestings article in the press about this lately.

You really come across as having an inferiority complex regarding the US. WTF does the US have to be blamed for some effing thing in every one of your posts? You seem obsessed. Obsessions are not healthy, you should see somebody about that.

zckls04 · Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
Blaming the US is a pretty good argument for a lot of the worlds issues

It's actually rather childish, particularly when you're discussing such things with Americans, 50% of whom are pretty much guaranteed to disagree with what their government is doing. More in the case of most of the transgressions you cite, e.g. the Iraq war. In the end, either you argue what is moral and what is not, or you take a completely amoral stance. You can't be moralistic when it comes to the USA and suddenly get all pragmatic when you start discussing Russia.

Personally I don't think either viewpoint justifies Russia's actions very well, given that they're both morally and financially bankrupt these days.

victrola · Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
Blaming the US is a pretty good argument for a lot of the worlds issues, you guys did a great job messing up the worlds financial markets, have made international air travel a pain in the butt, and love to meddle in other countries politics, usually creating a right royal mess.

Aways blaming the U.S. is the response of someone who has only the most superficial simplistic understanding of the world's problems.

29erUSA187 · Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):
Except Norway is a NATO member state, so Putin isn't going anywhere near it, and New Zealand is too far away for him to be able to do anything with anyway, so I'm feeling pretty safe and secure.

You missed his point. He was using his and your countries as examples.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 26):
He's just a provocateur which he's proven in several threads now.

As well as seemingly Anti-US/Russian Friendly

TheCommodore · Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 44):
As well as seemingly Anti-US/Russian Friendly

Is that a crime ?

WarRI1 · Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 45):
Is that a crime ?

No it is not. He has a right to criticize. Just as we have the right to dispute and question his incessant critique of the US. On here , it maybe considered trolling. I have been accused of it, why should he not be? He is almost hysterical with his constant barrage of anti-US. I do not mean he is funny either.

DDR · Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 46):

I finally just started skipping his posts. It's the same thing over and over with him. Never adds anything meaningful to any conversation, just spreads hate.

frostyj · Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:34 am

They would say that though wouldn't they.

The sanctions are designed to punish Russia.

frostyj · Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:36 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):

? He will have to stop because if he goes any further west he will be in EU territory and we all know that will NOT go down well.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net