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scotwperry
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Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:26 am

I noticed that the discussion thread on this exact same topic from 2003 at Do You Think That Sin Is Funny? (by FlyboyOz May 14 2003 in Non Aviation) was followed up on, and specifically commented on, by none other than Billy Graham himself in his most recent book (2014). This was in his book: "The Reason for my Hope: Salvation". Believe it or not, Billy Graham is still alive, is still quite "with it" mentally, but unfortunately, his health is a bit, you might say, "out of it". Hey, in my book still having one's mental faculties at age 95 is quite an accomplishment in and of itself, regardless of slightly failing health! At any rate, Graham writes predictably in his book that "sin" is no "laughing matter".

Here is what I might call my own "modern interpretation" of "sin" .... The word "sin" comes from the Latin word meaning "without" or "lacking". Certainly lack or imperfection is a fair enough description of the "human condition". We all at times falter, or experience ourselves "coming up short". Certainly we all strive for wholeness, completeness, self worth, and essentially for self-satisfaction. If Christian brotherly love can induce such a thing in one's self, then why not? If one man might call such an experience as a form of personal "redemption", then why not? If another might gain such a sense from simply helping a friend, then why not?

My "faith" in Jesus' teachings of how to "Love thy neighbor", and how to forgive both one's neighbor and one's self is what I feel "saves" me, why not? If one man's "Salvation" is another man's "decency", who am I to complain?

[Edited 2015-03-21 19:37:00]

[Edited 2015-03-21 19:37:58]

[Edited 2015-03-21 19:40:08]

[Edited 2015-03-21 19:47:47]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting scotwperry (Thread starter):
If Christian brotherly love can induce such a thing in one's self, then why not?

Why not what?

This is your first ever post on a.net; has one of us approached you at some other venue and said, "Not?"
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scotwperry
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:01 am

Why not what?

Sorry if my question might have seemed a bit "out of context". I was following up on the earlier thread linked to above that closed with a comment that said that "sin is just another way to keep the flock in line".

Actually, I agree with everything in that last comment from the previous thread, except for its use of the word "just". I say that in addition to sin being used as a sort of a "club" by hellfire and brimstone preachers, it can be interpreted as simple "error in how we treat one another", which is how I interpret it, and "salvation" can simply be interpreted as "correction of that error".

[Edited 2015-03-21 20:03:03]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:06 am

PS: I must "confess" while I have piloted planes, I was only really drawn to post here after just having read about the earlier thread right in Graham's latest book, and while I am not a "born again Christian" I am one who tries to respect what I see as the best parts of Christianity.

[Edited 2015-03-21 20:08:38]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:57 am

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 2):
Why not what?

Sorry if my question might have seemed a bit "out of context". I was following up on the earlier thread linked to above that closed with a comment that said that "sin is just another way to keep the flock in line".

Actually, I agree with everything in that last comment from the previous thread, except for its use of the word "just". I say that in addition to sin being used as a sort of a "club" by hellfire and brimstone preachers, it can be interpreted as simple "error in how we treat one another", which is how I interpret it, and "salvation" can simply be interpreted as "correction of that error".

You still didn't detail what exactly you're asking....

If it's "do you think sin is funny"? Then sure, it certainly can be funny. Context is everything.
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 4):
Context is everything.

Exactly.

Other than that, I´d really appreciate if the OP tries to clarify what is it he/she is asking or what type of exchange of ideas he/she is trying to achieve. I´ve read the OT a few times now and I don´t get it.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 4):
If it's "do you think sin is funny"? Then sure, it certainly can be funny.

and it can be a lot of fun as well!

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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:28 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
I´ve read the OT a few times now and I don´t get it.

Bible bashing under the guise of a 'thought provoking' thread, if you ask me...
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Bible bashing

Curious, what exactly is "Bible bashing?"
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:07 am

Jesus himself said that the Bible (the Old Testament of his day) was misunderstood by most, and taught a newer and even better understanding of forgiveness and brotherhood. Jesus taught again and again about how to forgive the real people that surround us in our lives, and said that only when we learn this, will we ourselves be forgiven. (See Lord's prayer.)

How did this get turned around to, "Actually, I was just kidding, you don't really have to learn how to forgive those around you first, all you have to do is join a certain club, undergo their initiation rite (be publicly "born again"), and we'll give you a ticket"?

In my view, practicing the second kind of "club membership Christianity" I just described is ignoring the very practical kind of "Lord's Prayer Christianity" taught in the Lord's Prayer, which wasn't really about joining the "right club", but about getting it right with those around you (and therefore with yourself). We are forgiven, as we learn to forgive, not as we join any particular club.

So I guess my question really is, "Do you think that it's kind of funny how Jesus' main teaching about "how to forgive your brother" got turned around to "how to join a club that focuses on our faults (sins) and teaches that by joining one of these clubs, club members are actually made exempt somehow from having to truly learn how to forgive their brothers"?

[Edited 2015-03-22 04:36:40]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:45 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
I´ve read the OT a few times now and I don´t get it.

Bible bashing under the guise of a 'thought provoking' thread, if you ask me...

I suspect AR385 was referring to the OP's post (Original Topic?) and not the Old Testament.
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:12 pm

By OP, I assumed that AR385 meant Original-Poster. Screwing up a relationship, friendship, or any other human interaction, now that is no fun. But doing things that hurt nobody, but that some high-muckety-muck says are "sinful", now that could be a bit fun. I think its funny how many things that hurt nobody are able to get so many "Christians" to say, "God (we) will not forgive this." I think that if Jesus saw how his message of forgiveness got turned inside out, he'd roll on the floor laughing!

[Edited 2015-03-22 05:25:06]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 9):

Jesus himself said that the Bible (the Old Testament of his day) was misunderstood by most, and taught a newer and even better understanding of forgiveness and brotherhood.

It's pretty hard to defend many parts of the OT, doesn't matter who you are or what you say. The amount of immoral bloodshed and demonstrably unscientific stories... how is that misunderstood? I don't subscribe to the whole "it's a metaphor" line like I used to because that's once again just a cop out that isn't backed up
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:36 pm

Sin, like many other things, can be funny depending on context. Sin, like many other things, can be fun depending on context.

Sin, as the OP alludes to, is a strange term for what is often exactly the opposite of what it seems, that is NOT forgoing temptation rather than going "sin" something.

Also, what a random thread. Like probably 95% of a.net, I really, really, really don't give a rat's hindquarters what Billy Graham says or does.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting scotwperry (Thread starter):
My "faith" in Jesus' teachings of how to "Love thy neighbor", and how to forgive both one's neighbor and one's self is what I feel "saves" me, why not?

If you actually believe in this supernatural, judgemental deity, it's a bit arrogant to forgive yourself.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Bible bashing under the guise of a 'thought provoking' thread, if you ask me...

  

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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):

Bible bashing under the guise of a 'thought provoking' thread, if you ask me...

Funny, I actually thought he was promoting Christianity! Which, I suppose, goes to show how unclear the post is.

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 2):
Quoting scotwperry (Reply 3):
Quoting scotwperry (Reply 9):
Quoting scotwperry (Reply 11):

Hmmm. Can you just write a one-sentence post (20 words or less), stating your question?

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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 10):
I suspect AR385 was referring to the OP's post (Original Topic?) and not the Old Testament.

OP: Original Poster
OT: Original Topic

So yes you are right, but I can see the confussion when the OP thought OT meant Old Testament. I meant Original Topic.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Bible bashing under the guise of a 'thought provoking' thread, if you ask me...

I see. Now I get it. The Opening Topic seemes so convoluted and meandering, it gave me a headache trying to read it.

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 9):
"Do you think that it's kind of funny how Jesus' main teaching about "how to forgive your brother" got turned around to "how to join a club that focuses on our faults (sins) and teaches that by joining one of these clubs,

I wouldn´t use "funny" the operating word. Because that "funniness" enabled Chrtistians throughout history to perpetrate crimes that are as revolting and cringeworthy as their modern version we see in the atrocities of ISIS today. So no, nothing funny in that. As far as those clubs go, I´m sort of wary about them because a lot of them seem a bunch of judgemental fanatics who just because they decided to go some sort of conversion, believe they have now a right to look down upon other Christians.

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 11):
By OP, I assumed that AR385 meant Original-Poster.

Correct.

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 11):
I think its funny how many things that hurt nobody are able to get so many "Christians" to say, "God (we) will not forgive this."

I see that more of a figure of speech in most circumstances. If you believe Christian faith dogma, Christ is our savior and all our sins have been forgiven.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
It's pretty hard to defend many parts of the OT, doesn't matter who you are or what you say. The amount of immoral bloodshed and demonstrably unscientific stories

You can´t defend a thousands year old collection of multiple stories, metaphors and analogies written with a variety of intents, purposes, designs and objectives by a variety of scholars, normal people and priests. On the Old Testament you have pagan stories "Goddified", capture of oral history passed down from generations and a mixture of many literary genra. So not only you can´t defend it, and certainly not as a whole.

Some specific part of a book may have an easily to understand purpose for saying the things it does, but that´s as close as you can get. You cannot even call it "unscientific" since no science existed back then. And even so, many books have many crude "scientific" intent on what they say.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
"it's a metaphor" line like I used to because that's once again just a cop out that isn't backed up

it´s not a cop out on what it says since it´s, again, see above. It is a cop out to take it literally today and go do stuff based on its writings.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:48 pm

No doubt the Old Testament is full of teachings that make absolutely no sense in today's modern world. Genocide is promoted there. Slavery is promoted there. Rabid nationalism is promoted there, as well as all kinds of draconian punishments. Then in the New Testament, the foundation is laid for a new church/ state (Rome and its successors) that begins to surpass even the old Jewish state in it's lust for blood.

Still I think that most here would probably agree, that there, even in the middle of all of that sad militaristic mixing of church and state, was Jesus, just trying to teach a little brotherly love, no? What he had to teach, though much diluted, forgotten, and perverted, remains true to this day, I believe.

I don't buy into the "he bled for our sins" line of baloney. I just appreciate what he taught as found in most of the
Gospels. Thomas Jefferson pared the Bible down to about 50 pages that he took out of the Gospels, minus miracles, theology and other baloney. That is the Jesus I can appreciate, not focused on sin, but on how to simply be good.

So I guess my question is: Do you think it's funny (odd) how Jesus' teaching on goodness got turned into a theology of sin?

[Edited 2015-03-22 17:09:34]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:31 am

What is that old saying about religion?

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 17):
So I guess my question is: Do you think it's funny (odd) how Jesus' teaching on goodness got turned into a theology of sin?

Sin=damnation=fear=control. A great control mechanism is fear of eternal damnation. I believe this is not all an accident. What I believe is another question. I know I do not trust anything written by man, especially the rules for salvation.

[Edited 2015-03-22 17:39:39]
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:11 am

BTW, Jefferson's pared down version of the Bible is still around, and today is known as the "Jefferson Version" of the Bible.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:32 am

I've been brought up in what I would call "liberal Catholicism", with very modern priests and teachings (I've now learned that French clergy was at the forefront of the Vatican II council), so despite going to catechism on Wednesdays (equivalent to Sunday school), doing various pilgrimages (Chartres, Lourdes), I was never exposed to that idea that sinners went to hell, nor to the concept of hell at all, in fact. To me, sins had to be acknowledged, understood, maybe atoned for, but people were going to heaven no matter what. Well, I didn't really believe, I just couldn't, but at least that religion seemed pretty harmless to me, with only good sides : I liked singing, helping others, doing things with others, knowing "religiously" some of the girls I met there, etc.

Then I went to North America for the World Youth Days 2002 in Toronto. I was 18. There I was exposed to extremists, harping on about premarital sex, abortion, homosexuality, fire and brimstone, day in, day out. Let's just say that since then I've only set foot in a church for weddings and funerals...
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):
Funny, I actually thought he was promoting Christianity!

That's pretty much what a Bible basher is... well, outside the US at least:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bible_basher

Let's say Bible thumping then, so both continents are on the same idiomatic level?
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 17):
Then in the New Testament, the foundation is laid for a new church/ state (Rome and its successors) that begins to surpass even the old Jewish state in it's lust for blood.

Where do you see the that?

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 17):
Still I think that most here would probably agree, that there, even in the middle of all of that sad militaristic mixing of church and state, was Jesus,

Again, where do you see that?

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 17):
I don't buy into the "he bled for our sins" line of baloney.

You don´t have to buy it. You either believe it or you don´t. It´s faith dogma.

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 17):
Thomas Jefferson pared the Bible down to about 50 pages that he took out of the Gospels, minus miracles, theology and other baloney. That is the Jesus I can appreciate, not focused on sin, but on how to simply be good.

You are being a heretic, as was Thomas Jefferson. No, really. Both are engaging in the heresy of Arianism. Which is fine by me. But if you want to believe in Jesus then you can´t say that.

I am probably the most heretic of all, since Jesus didn´t really exist. And if he did, the gospels are a mix of fictional accounts with a few true anecdotes. John´s gospel, for example, over the next hundreds of years after Jesus died acummulated more and more stories. The chapter of the woman adulterer, for example, one of the most beautiful, suddenly appeared with the King James version of the Bible. It wasn´t there before. The Jesus of the gospels is a construct of man. A man made idea.

So the question you are asking sort of evaporates because man has always been manipulating the story of Jesus. Even fabricating most parts of the gospels. Maybe that is the funny part of the whole thing.

Of course, faith is faith, and from a pure faithful standpoint, all of the above is pure heresy. And I should be burned at the stake.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:05 am

Foundation laid for a new Church/ State....
    Please read Revelations, where Jesus is portrayed riding a horse, wielding a sword, and dripping in blood. Sounds like a religio-militaristic conqueror to me....

...in the middle of the militaristic mixing of Church and State was Jesus...
    First there was the theocracy of ancient Israel, then there was Jesus who taught that "rendering unto Caesar" had nothing to do with what we "render to God" (read, perhaps the first recorded suggestion towards separation of Church and State), then there was the Roman Catholic Church of Rome. Jesus seems to fall in the middle of all of this.


Don't buy into the bled for our sins thing...
    OK, I don't believe it then....

You are a heretic....
    Yes, and so are you, and so was Jefferson. Isn't it grand? (I'm just glad the days of the great Catholic weiner roasts are a thing of the past!)

[Edited 2015-03-22 19:09:48]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
You cannot even call it "unscientific" since no science existed back then. And even so, many books have many crude "scientific" intent on what they say.

Fine, replace "unscientific" with "wrong"

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
it´s not a cop out on what it says since it´s, again, see above. It is a cop out to take it literally today and go do stuff based on its writings.

Huh?

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 17):
Still I think that most here would probably agree, that there, even in the middle of all of that sad militaristic mixing of church and state, was Jesus, just trying to teach a little brotherly love, no? What he had to teach, though much diluted, forgotten, and perverted, remains true to this day, I believe.

I suppose the New Testament is a lot nicer, minus the whole "believe in me or go to hell forever" stuff
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
Fine, replace "unscientific" with "wrong"

What is wrong about things written thousands and hundreds of years ago? You can´t apply today´s norms to things written in another era.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
Huh?

What exactly?
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:42 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
Fine, replace "unscientific" with "wrong"

What is wrong about things written thousands and hundreds of years ago? You can´t apply today´s norms to things written in another era

Nothing wrong with them, but they are certainly irrelevant and are useful for little more than historical evidence of how far we have come in understanding the world.
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:58 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
What is wrong about things written thousands and hundreds of years ago?

The creation story? Noah's ark? The origin of languages (in the tower of Babel)? Doesn't matter when they were written, they are wrong

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
You can´t apply today´s norms to things written in another era.

Why not? Was slavery ok back then? I realize some things are situational but I believe some things are just wrong no matter how civilized people were. If I were alive back then I'd probably partake in uncivilized things (as would most people) but it doesn't make it right. It's harder to believe that an timeless, all powerful being would condone such actions ever

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
What exactly?

I didn't understand the entire paragraph. Actually I'm at a lost of a lot of things in this thread. My apologies
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
The creation story? Noah's ark? The origin of languages (in the tower of Babel)? Doesn't matter when they were written, they are wrong

They are factually wrong. We know that now. Now. But back then, even though they were factually wrong, still, they were as good a story as any, as there was nothing to contradict them. No science. They were metaphors and stories to provide societal norms. I doubt it if even then, people took them literally.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
Why not? Was slavery ok back then? I realize some things are situational but I believe some things are just wrong no matter how civilized people were. If I were alive back then I'd probably partake in uncivilized things (as would most people) but it doesn't make it right. It's harder to believe that an timeless, all powerful being would condone such actions ever

It makes it easy to say that now, in 2015, but if you lived in those times, you would not have thought so. That does not make it right, morally. But you can´t blame societies of thousands and hundreds of years ago if they did not have the moral concepts we have and understand now.

Jefferson, beloved by many, and one of those who participated in the signing of the Constitution, had slaves. The part of Monticello they don´t show you in the tours is rather interesting. And not particularly nice. Rather sickening if you ask me, and painful to see. Was Jefferson wrong? Sure. But I still don´t see any of Jefferson´s statues and monuments around being taken down. So exactly how wrong was it? I mean, people say it. But what do they do about it?

If you say something is wrong, and as a society we agree it is wrong, at any time, past or present, then that´s all well and good. But if nothing is done in the present to condemn it, in all circumstances, then there is an implicit acceptance that at other times it was not so morally straighforward either in being wrong or right.

And no, I am not saying it was ever right. I am saying that that is the reason why you cannot say, with the facts of the present, that things done way way back in the past were either right or wrong. And that has nothing to do with moral relativism. That deals with things that are contemporary and of the present.

As far as the all powerful being, I suppose it depends on those who created the all powerful being. The one that slaughtered the first born of all the Egyptians because the Pharaon would not let the "chosen" people leave? Or the one who sent his only son to die for all of us to be forgiven?. Different times, different humans, different ideas of what is an all powerful deity. Of what is wrong and right. And thus, a bible, that is a collection of stories and myths, over time, written throughout entire eras, cannot be taken as a single collection of stories written at one point in time.

Christianity is supposedly monotheistic. You really wouldn´t know that if you only went by the bible. There are more Gods in there than in "Clash of the Titans." Either that, or God is a rather serious schizophrenic whacko. And that, I find more funny than sin.

[Edited 2015-03-22 21:42:27]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
What is that old saying about religion?

That it's like a penis:
totally awesome to have, but best not taken out and waved around in the faces of the unwilling.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
They are factually wrong. We know that now. Now. But back then, even though they were factually wrong, still, they were as good a story as any, as there was nothing to contradict them. No science. They were metaphors and stories to provide societal norms.

Ok that makes sense.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
I doubt it if even then, people took them literally.

No, I think they were absolutely meant to be taken literally, which is how they were made, to explain the things around them. As you move away from the founders you may be more right, but I am pretty sure the authors made the stories because they believed it to be true.

Plus, look at how many Americans TODAY believe the stories to be literally true. It could be as high as 40% depending how accurate that one poll I'm too lazy to look up is (as in people may say they literally believe the Bible but when you ask them the worst cases they might disagree.) But there is at least a good chunk, look at all the creationists out there, look at Ken Ham and his following, Kent Hovind, etc

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
It makes it easy to say that now, in 2015, but if you lived in those times, you would not have thought so. That does not make it right, morally. But you can´t blame societies of thousands and hundreds of years ago if they did not have the moral concepts we have and understand now.

I already agreed that I'd probably do the same thing. If you and I were German teens in Nazi Germany we'd probably do horrific things. Most people on this forum would whether they admit it or not. I'd like to think I wouldn't but had I been raised in that same society and grew up the way they did, I'd probably be the same.

Can I blame them? I believe so. They were still wrong and even if I would have done the same thing, punishment is due. The deterrent effect and lessons learned will hopefully prevent it from happening again.

Human morality is a very messy, complex issue. Does it suck that Nazis were punished for being brainwashed and doing what most people in their situation would do? Yes. But it sucked more for their victims

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
And no, I am not saying it was ever right. I am saying that that is the reason why you cannot say, with the facts of the present, that things done way way back in the past were either right or wrong.

Your two sentences seem to be in direct contradiction.

I honestly think we are closer agreement than we think. I think we're just not getting through to each other effectively
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Plus, look at how many Americans TODAY believe the stories to be literally true. It could be as high as 40% depending how accurate that one poll I'm too lazy to look up is (as in people may say they literally believe the Bible but when you ask them the worst cases they might disagree.) But there is at least a good chunk, look at all the creationists out there, look at Ken Ham and his following, Kent Hovind, etc

That is very true. But that is an issue that has to do with a lot of failures in American society. And no, I am not a US basher. It has more to do with the failures of the educational system, from the lack of supervision the Federal government gets to have on the states in many areas, to the political agenda of politicians in Washington all over the political spectra that prefer a stupid and conflictive society that does not question nor is capable of questioning itself and its choices in a logical or intelligent way.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
I already agreed that I'd probably do the same thing. If you and I were German teens in Nazi Germany we'd probably do horrific things. Most people on this forum would whether they admit it or not. I'd like to think I wouldn't but had I been raised in that same society and grew up the way they did, I'd probably be the same.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Can I blame them? I believe so. They were still wrong and even if I would have done the same thing, punishment is due. The deterrent effect and lessons learned will hopefully prevent it from happening again.

Human morality is a very messy, complex issue. Does it suck that Nazis were punished for being brainwashed and doing what most people in their situation would do? Yes. But it sucked more for their victims

That they were wrong, immoral and worse is indisputable. But to me it is a different situation because throughout the Nazi regime, from the time to came to power to their demise, Germany was a Western society, with values, education, and science. They have less of an excuse, if any, than the people in the bible from hundreds of years ago.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
Your two sentences seem to be in direct contradiction.

I don´t see it, but it could be. Can you be more specific?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
I honestly think we are closer agreement than we think. I think we're just not getting through to each other effectively

That we are. We do agree, I´m sure of that.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 29):

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
What is that old saying about religion?

That it's like a penis:
totally awesome to have, but best not taken out and waved around in the faces of the unwilling.

Not quite the same as I was thinking, but those words will do.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31):
I don´t see it, but it could be. Can you be more specific?

"And no, I am not saying it was ever right. I am saying that that is the reason why you cannot say, with the facts of the present, that things done way way back in the past were either right or wrong."

You say it was never right, then you say we can't say if it's right or wrong  
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:29 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
You say it was never right, then you say we can't say if it's right or wrong

I see. You are missing this part: "with the facts of the present"

This ties with Moral Relativism. While I agree with that view of Ethics, in my opinion Moral Relativism is not for the past. At least not for the hundreds of years ago past. I maintain Moral Relativism can only apply to the contemporary. Maybe if you understand my way of thinking you will find I am not contradicting myself.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
No, I think they were absolutely meant to be taken literally, which is how they were made, to explain the things around them. As you move away from the founders you may be more right, but I am pretty sure the authors made the stories because they believed it to be true.

While I'm not sure what the original authors intended (and no-one is), but biblical literalism really only became a thing in the 18th century. For most of the centuries before they were clearly not considered too literally, and heck, for most of that time most people couldn't read the scriptures anyway.

Even today only relatively modest subsets of followers* of one of the Abrahamic religions believe the Old and New Testaments** are the literal, and inerrant, word of God. For example, no Roman Catholic should*** believe such a thing, and that's half the people calling themselves Christians right there. The same applies to most orthodox sects as well. And while Muslims consider the Quran inerrant****, but the other inspired books (very roughly the parts of the Old and New Testament accepted by Islam), are *not* granted that status. Genesis is *specifically* held to be allegorical. So that's something like three-quarters of the followers of the Abrahamic religions right there, and most of the rest don't assume inerrancy either. Fundamentalist and evangelical Christians are numerically a fairly small group, except in the United States, but they are noisy.


*Or at least claimed followers.

**Obviously not all sects accept quite the same versions of those.

***The Church's doctrine is quite clear on the matter, but lots of people do get it wrong.

****At least in its Arabic form.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
This ties with Moral Relativism. While I agree with that view of Ethics, in my opinion Moral Relativism is not for the past. At least not for the hundreds of years ago past. I maintain Moral Relativism can only apply to the contemporary. Maybe if you understand my way of thinking you will find I am not contradicting myself.

Are you saying people who engaged in less civil acts in the past you still be good people, relatively speaking?

Quoting rwessel (Reply 35):
While I'm not sure what the original authors intended (and no-one is), but biblical literalism really only became a thing in the 18th century.

I agree that no one can really be absolutely sure, but I still think most creation myths were meant to be taken literally. They are written to explain the unknown, something humans want explained. I don't see it in an allegorical form. Plus, you have stories like Noah (never happened) referenced by Jesus. Again, I don't see any indication that the stories should be allegorical until after the fact (when science proves them wrong.)

It may be hard to believe they were ever literal but these people were very uneducated. The phenomenon we take for granted was completely unknown to them. Stars? Of course we know what they are, but to them, the were lights in the firmament, the dome above the Earth. I don't see that as metaphorical, that's what these ancient cultures believed, and it was written right into the Bible (well, the stories morphed into the form they appear in the Bible.) The way to make a golem? Something the cultures believed back then: form a figure out of clay, then breathe into it. Look how Adam was formed...

I'm open to evidence of it written as metaphor. Like we both said, we will never know what they thought, but we can take a good guess based off evidence. I haven't seen too much evidence until much later, after the stories were written. I am not convinced
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
Are you saying people who engaged in less civil acts in the past you still be good people, relatively speaking?

Goodness and evil are relative terms depending how far you want to go. We exterminated the other Human species, such as the Neanderthals. At least that´s the most widely accepted theory. Would you say our ancestors were evil in doing that, less civil? Some goodness and some evilness may be instinctual, but a lot also depends on the degree of societal development of a civilization.

I would say that civilization as it developed introduced more concepts of what was good and what was evil, concepts that were less instinctual than discovered. If only because goodness is a practicality in a society. Without certain things considered moral, or "good" a society would collapse in chaos.

So yes, I would say that depending how far back in the past you want to go, and that is key, people who engaged in what NOW we consider less civil acts are still good people.

The morals of today can´t be applied to the past.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 37):
Would you say our ancestors were evil in doing that, less civil? Some goodness and some evilness may be instinctual, but a lot also depends on the degree of societal development of a civilization.

No, I agree, to an extent of course. A slave owner, as wrong as it is to own people, who truly believes that he is doing nothing wrong and is very nice to others around him... is that person evil? Morality and ethics is very difficult.

How about our grandparents? Many of them are great, generous people. What happens when they make a subtle, stereotypical slur about someone? Were they just raised that way and really don't know any better, or are they bad in that regard?

I'm glad we had this thought provoking discussion, morality is something I think about a lot. Ironically, we pretty much agreed on everything all along it seems  
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
How about our grandparents? Many of them are great, generous people. What happens when they make a subtle, stereotypical slur about someone? Were they just raised that way and really don't know any better, or are they bad in that regard?

In my opinion, members of a society that want to be full, productive and participating members of it, no matter their age have to change with the times. What is considered a slur now but wasn´t in their time, is not an excuse not to learn and adapt to the new ways. Be it a slur, an attitude, an idea, a behavior.

At the same time old people, not necessarily senile, sometimes say things without meaning any harm. It´s just how it is. Then it is up to us to be tolerant and understanding. If they are senile, well, then it´s really not their fault.

Sometimes it happens the other way around. A society may start engaging in behaviors our grandparents find amoral and evil, and sometimes they are right. We have to listen to them. Either because they´ve seen it before (and lived though the consequences, there are countless examples) or because they are wise.


Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
I'm glad we had this thought provoking discussion

Me too.

[Edited 2015-03-23 21:58:27]
 
scotwperry
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:29 pm

Moral relativism: The word "moral" comes from the Latin word: mos, meaning, "custom". I find it rather interesting how a simple and seemingly harmless word like the word, "custom," eventually came to get all bound up with all of the many heavy and judgmental connotations that now come along with the word: "moral". Funny I suppose.

Moral relativism: Is it the act that is immoral, or the intention made during the act?

If I steal a loaf of bread from a baker to feed my starving child who is on the verge of death, meaning to pay back the baker the following day after I get paid, is that immoral? If I give a loaf of bread to a starving person, with the intention of ultimately creating a debt slave of that person, am I immoral?

If I do something awful, like kill someone, perhaps because I was wrongfully convinced that the person was otherwise going to somehow "kill us" yet without having even the slightest understanding of how this might be wrong, was I wrong?

If I do something awful, like kill someone, perhaps because I was rightfully convinced that the person was otherwise going to somehow "kill us" yet without having even the slightest understanding of how this might be wrong, was I wrong?

So, again, while outcomes are important, is the outcome more important, or the intention that ultimately created whatever outcome?

It seems to me that the intention is far more important than the outcome. While a court of law might argue otherwise, I firmly believe this. What do you think?

Now with those who wrote the various parts of the Bible..... do we really have a fig of a clue what their intentions might have been thousands of years ago? We might guess, but do we really know? We might know the present day outcome of some of their writings, which is often rather abysmal  , but I will not claim to be able to understand the intentions that were going on back then sufficiently enough to be capable of saying, "you sir, are wrong," and "you sir, are right."
 
scotwperry
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:37 pm

BTW, this discussion here just inspired me to join (and sort of start) the Jeffersonian Church today. Thanks to all for helping me to think this through a bit here!
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:51 am

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 40):
Moral relativism: Is it the act that is immoral, or the intention made during the act?

That is a hard question. The mother that kills her children so they go to heaven and actually believes it is good. Is the mother immoral? First off, I'd say the act itself is not moral, but I wouldn't say the mother is immoral but that she is deranged and sick in the head. Punishment is due, obviously, but mental state needs to be taken into consideration.

Ultimately, her morals are "wrong" and her mind is "not working correctly" because society as a whole deems it that way. That leads to sticky situations such as slavery being moral and ok by society at one point. Why are we right and they not? We set up rules to try to best come up with fair and consistent standards but at the end of the day, those are arbitrary to an extent. Something as universally agreeable as "maximizing happiness without disenfranchising others" is arbitrary if you think about it... we all came up with it but it's nothing we can put under a microscope and say that it's definitely right

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):
At the same time old people, not necessarily senile, sometimes say things without meaning any harm. It´s just how it is. Then it is up to us to be tolerant and understanding. If they are senile, well, then it´s really not their fault.

Ties in with what I said above. If they say "negro" now it would be offensive but back then, it was the norm, AND, it was used by black people. Hey, maybe me using the word "black" to describe someone will be offensive decades from now (depending who you ask, it may be.) If I'm used to saying that or don't want to change because I'm stubborn, is that immoral? I think the answer to that is rooted in why I don't want to change and my reasons against it. Who knows
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:42 am

Why is this country obsessed with bacon? I hate bacon. The taste and the texture and all of it. Bacon is the worst. And, in the Bible, it is bad too. So, in a self proclaimed "Christian" nation, why is there such a love of bacon? All this humor and love of bacon: why?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
scotwperry
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:39 am

Now bacon is immoral because it says so in the ...... Such a lovely thing, ruined by such tom foolery, no?   And I was so looking forward to the bacon in my breakfast tomorrow morning! Now that would make seb146 immoral for spoiling my breakfast tomorrow morning. Jeez!!

[Edited 2015-03-24 23:46:11]
 
AR385
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:41 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Ties in with what I said above. If they say "negro" now it would be offensive but back then, it was the norm, AND, it was used by black people. Hey, maybe me using the word "black" to describe someone will be offensive decades from now (depending who you ask, it may be.) If I'm used to saying that or don't want to change because I'm stubborn, is that immoral? I think the answer to that is rooted in why I don't want to change and my reasons against it. Who knows

Well then. But as I said. If you want to be a full participant of the society you live in, no matter your age, if you are mentally capable, then there are new norms (in particular regarding vocabulary) that you have to learn and abide by. Being used to saying something or not wanting to change is not an excuse. You may get away with it because of your age and people being tolerant but don´t expect people to like you.

What I meant by old people saying things without being senile, is that sometimes they just say, for example, "gringo". Most people in Mexico will not say that word to refer to an American citizen in their presence. Because NOW it is considered rather pejorative. But our grandparents used it as a colloquial way to refer to Americans. Nothing wrong in that word in their time. So sometimes, specially in the border, it slips by them and they use it. In my opinion nothing wrong with that once in a while.

But if I use gringo to referr to you, it´s another story. Same with "wetback" (mojado). I am sure a few decades ago while not being a nice word, it was not a big deal to use it. Now? I find it beyond insulting. But sometimes old people, on the American side of the border may use it without meaning to harm anyone. It slips them by.

The one time someone referred to me as a "wetback" in the US, resulted in their dismissal from the company. And I had nothing to do with it. Somebody else reported it anonymously but it did surprise me. The dismissal, that is.

As you said. Intent is everything.

[Edited 2015-03-24 23:59:34]
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
I hate bacon. The taste and the texture and all of it. Bacon is the worst.

*gasp* Blasphemy!  Wow!

Kill the witch!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:02 am

I know the insult intended by the word "gringo", but I find it a bit amusing, and I often refer to myself as a "gringo" while talking with my Mexican friends, just to get a little smile out of them as they wonder to themselves, "does that guy really know what he's saying?". At times I have been known to be loud, insensitive and full of bs, so what the hey?

I think that if we can get through our lives with a minimun of judgment of others, that ability would tend to make us the most "moral", and only when we begin to find fault in those around us, do we begin to go down the old slippery slope of moralism. Thus, I tend to prefer to be blissfully ignorant of the shortcomings of those around me if at all possible!
 
AR385
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting scotwperry (Reply 47):
I know the insult intended by the word "gringo", but I find it a bit amusing, and I often refer to myself as a "gringo" while talking with my Mexican friends, just to get a little smile out of them as they wonder to themselves, "does that guy really know what he's saying?". At times I have been known to be loud, insensitive and full of bs, so what the hey?

Yes. It depends on the context of course and no example is perfect. IF you are my GOOD friend and we are in a SOCIAL and INFORMAL context, I may refer to you as a "gringo." As a joke. But that´s it. The meaning, or the usage, has changed, and now it´s just not a word you would use to refer to an American national on a normal basis.
 
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RE: Do You Think Sin Is Funny? (continued)

Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:17 am

I think that a little humor is sometimes capable of defusing a lot of bs, but not always. On rare ocassions, it takes a lot of humor to defuse a situation!

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