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mt99
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Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:19 pm

Nothing good has ever come from Indiana.

Washington (CNN)Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed into law on Thursday a measure that allows businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers in the name of "religious freedom."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politi...religious-freedom-bill-gay-rights/
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MaverickM11
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Washington (CNN)Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed into law on Thursday a measure that allows businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers in the name of "religious freedom."

No it's kewl, I don't need any rights. By all means, your fairy tales are far more important. 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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OA412
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:38 pm

Stay classy Indiana.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
No it's kewl, I don't need any rights. By all means, your fairy tales are far more important.

But, the children...
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LittleFokker
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:51 pm

And this is about to cost Indianapolis one of their biggest conventions. Good job, jackasses:

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/p...s-religious-freedom-bill/70393474/
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):
And this is about to cost Indianapolis one of their biggest conventions. Good job, jackasses:

The NCAA, which has similar morals to the christians behind this bill, also has misgivings:

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...-final-four-indianapolis/70490096/
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):
And this is about to cost Indianapolis one of their biggest conventions. Good job, jackasses:

"Gen Con is under contract to hold the conference in Indianapolis through 2020. Conference spokeswoman Stacia Kirby said there are no plans to break the contract."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/p...s-religious-freedom-bill/70393474/

Can they break the contract based on their own religious freedom? claiming that their religion does not allow them to make business withe the Convention Center"
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MaverickM11
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Can they break the contract based on their own religious freedom? claiming that their religion does not allow them to make business withe the Convention Center"

Act of God? Or His dreadful followers? 
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LittleFokker
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Can they break the contract based on their own religious freedom? claiming that their religion does not allow them to make business withe the Convention Center"

   Ding! I hope they use this reasoning when they do break their contract.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
diverted
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:00 pm

To quote the comedian Jim Jefferies...

"You have a problem with gays? Here's a suggestion; don't marry a gay person"

Problem solved


It's sad that we're in the 21st century and this crap still flies. Meanwhile everyone's bashing Islam for being oppressive, but yet, in the "FREE" USA this stuff happens?

Looking at the news, all I can think of is how humanity is going to hell in a handbasket
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:05 pm

In Pastafarianism, rum and beer are sacred beverages.

Can't restaurant owners now claim their religious liberty is being violated by liquor licenses?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...
-Doc Lightning-

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skyservice_330
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:31 pm

Between this and the 'execute the gays' issue in California, it sure seems like the so-cons south of the 49th are busy!

I read an article recently which contextualized these 'religious freedom' measures:

Has the anti-gay Right found its gay "partial birth abortion" tactic?

Last fall at the conservative Values Voters Summit, I sat in on a panel of anti-LGBT leaders titled "The Future of Marriage." On the panel, Frank Schubert, the mastermind strategist of the Proposition 8 campaign and other same-sex marriage ban campaigns across the country, pondered what conservatives would do if the Supreme Court eventually struck down gay marriage bans in every state, which is how things look now.

The solution the panelists agreed upon? They would have to go the route they did with abortion after Roe v. Wade. They'd have to seek "incremental" wins for their side. On abortion, they chipped away slowly at women's freedom of choice, making abortion difficult to obtain and passing laws to restrict women's rights even if some were and are later overturned. Some laws would stick, helping to limit abortion (often affecting poor women). And even when they ultimately lose, the right temporarily shuts down clinics or restricts access, creating a constant state of instability and keeping its agenda -- and the often hateful rhetoric -- in the national spotlight.
.
.
.
On the Values Voter Summit panel, discussing the comparison of LGBT rights to abortion, Frank Schubert went on to say they'd have to the find the gay "version" of "partial birth abortion." Obviously, he meant something with regard to gay rights that would be met with less resistance, among even some Democratic politicians, the business community and the public at large. Later, I asked him about it. He talked about "conscience clauses" and "religious liberties" bills and said they'd be exploring other things.

See more at: http://www.sdgln.com/commentary/2015...ortion-tactic#sthash.d5WRBpky.dpuf
 
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Tugger
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
"Gen Con is under contract to hold the conference in Indianapolis through 2020. Conference spokeswoman Stacia Kirby said there are no plans to break the contract."

Not having "plans" to do so is not the same as not being able to do so if pushed.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Can they break the contract based on their own religious freedom? claiming that their religion does not allow them to make business withe the Convention Center"

I suspect that there is language somewhere in the contract that allows for cancellation if some "material change" occurs in the state etc. Of course one would have to see the contract to find if this is.

Tugg
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diverted
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting skyservice_330 (Reply 10):
The solution the panelists agreed upon? They would have to go the route they did with abortion after Roe v. Wade. They'd have to seek "incremental" wins for their side. On abortion, they chipped away slowly at women's freedom of choice, making abortion difficult to obtain and passing laws to restrict women's rights even if some were and are later overturned. Some laws would stick, helping to limit abortion (often affecting poor women). And even when they ultimately lose, the right temporarily shuts down clinics or restricts access, creating a constant state of instability and keeping its agenda -- and the often hateful rhetoric -- in the national spotlight.
.
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So typical American politics? Can't advance your own agenda? Throw mud and prevent anything positive from happening. Things like this is why voter turnouts are garbage. Nothing's gonna change aside from the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

As a Canadian, I can't help but see what Stephen Harper is doing up here (C-51, basically our PATRIOT act) and think that we're headed down the same road.

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vikkyvik
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting skyservice_330 (Reply 10):
Between this and the 'execute the gays' issue in California, it sure seems like the so-cons south of the 49th are busy!

Difference being, the California crap ain't gonna go anywhere.
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A332DTW
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:34 pm

Can't the Supreme Court strike this down? I can't imagine this being entirely constitutional.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:05 pm

We're we not critiquing Putin and Russia for this type of activity a short while ago? It all seems familiar somehow. In Russia this is bad, but not here it seems.  
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StarAC17
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Washington (CNN)Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed into law on Thursday a measure that allows businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers in the name of "religious freedom."

Sit by with the popcorn when a federal jugde overturns this and Indiana complains about the Tyranny of the Federal government.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
We're we not critiquing Putin and Russia for this type of activity a short while ago? It all seems familiar somehow. In Russia this is bad, but not here it seems.

Didn't you hear? Putin is the strong leader that the GOP wishes that they could have, instead of that wuss Obama   
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BMI727
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:12 am

It's sad that a law like this has to exist. It should be unspoken that transactions between private parties are their business and people may choose whom they do or do not want to associate or do business with based on whatever criteria they wish. It's simply not the government's place.

You can't have a law demanding restaurants serve homosexuals because you would also have to have a law demanding people not boycott a business that, say, flew a Confederate flag.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
No it's kewl, I don't need any rights. By all means, your fairy tales are far more important.

Except that you do not have the right to force a private entity to do business with you.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Can they break the contract based on their own religious freedom?

They shouldn't be able to break the contract, but they (and anyone else) would be entirely within their rights to not sign a contract if they dislike this law, which ironically would be entirely in keeping with the spirit of this law.

I mean, I don't expect the porn industry to be having any conventions in Salt Lake City.
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
It's sad that a law like this has to exist. It should be unspoken that transactions between private parties are their business and people may choose whom they do or do not want to associate or do business with based on whatever criteria they wish. It's simply not the government's place.

So let me just be clear: You support the legalization of all discrimination by private and public officials based on a claim of religious belief? Because it would be disingenuous to say that people shouldn't be allowed to discriminate on race or sex or religion but yes on sexual orientation.

There's no middle ground here. You either think that both public officials (and the law allows that) and private businesses should have the right to discriminate based on race, religion, national origin, sex, and marital status or you don't.

So which is it? I want you to say it outright.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 14):
Can't the Supreme Court strike this down?

Perhaps eventually, but it has to find its way through the lower courts first... which I'm guessing it likely will.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BMI727
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
So let me just be clear: You support the legalization of all discrimination by private and public officials based on a claim of religious belief?

The government would have to treat everyone equally. And I have no problem with the government choosing not to do business with businesses that would choose to discriminate. Public officials should not be allowed to discriminate in their official roles.

And it has nothing to do with religious belief or claim of religious belief. Private entities should be able to make decisions based on whatever they wish. Maybe you don't want to shop somewhere because you're a Yankees fan and the owner is a Red Sox fan, I don't care.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
You either think that both public officials (and the law allows that) and private businesses should have the right to discriminate based on race, religion, national origin, sex, and marital status or you don't.

Public officials should not be allowed to discriminate, but private entities (people and businesses) should be allowed to do or not do business with whomever they wish. Cutting out a big part of the market would be dumb, but it should be legal.
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
And it has nothing to do with religious belief or claim of religious belief.

Then why is it called the "religious freedom law"?

By Religious - we are talking about Christianity only- right?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
They shouldn't be able to break the contract, but they (and anyone else) would be entirely within their rights to not sign a contract if they dislike this law, which ironically would be entirely in keeping with the spirit of this law.

Yes it would be deliciously ironic that Indiana looses money by people getting out of contracts to avoid business with it by using the same law.
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BMI727
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 21):
Then why is it called the "religious freedom law"?

Ask the people who named it.

But I don't think it should ever have to do anything with religion. The freedom of choice in private dealings should apply to everyone. To me it's just as legitimate to not want to do business with someone because they went to a rival high school. Entirely ridiculous and stupid, but legitimate.
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luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 14):
Can't the Supreme Court strike this down? I can't imagine this being entirely constitutional.

Most likely this is headed to the courts, and as fast as gay marriage bans fell I foresee this one falling even faster. Ironically taxpayer money wasted on a useless gesture that is going to cost the state more money. But that's ok...Indiana has a $2 billion dollar surplus. Even the resolute, morally upright GOP must bow to its special interest groups, for whom the First Amendment apparently isn't good enough. What's going to be hilarious to watch is when a non-Christian out of principle refuses services to a Christian. And then the State has to defend them with this law.

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):

Nothing good has ever come from Indiana.

Careful, Superfly will come after you.   But in all seriousness, they certainly make it easy to rag on them...

In other related news, it looks like a similar bill stalled in the George House Judiciary Committee after some Republicans introduced language specifically stating there will be no intent to discriminate. Most likely this was a face-saving move by the more thought-inclined members of the House as Georgia has substantial big business that did not want to see this bill go anywhere.
 
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
and as fast as gay marriage bans fell I foresee this one falling even faster

   Indeed, mostly because.......

Quoting luckyone (Reply 23):
What's going to be hilarious to watch is when a non-Christian out of principle refuses services to a Christian. And then the State has to defend them with this law.

.......of this.

It's going to be as predictable as it is hilarious when the people who started this law get discriminated against due to claims of religion.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
To me it's just as legitimate to not want to do business with someone because they went to a rival high school.

So if you don't want to deal with a woman or a black man - you should be able to shoo them out of your store?
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:37 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
I mean, I don't expect the porn industry to be having any conventions in Salt Lake City.


Does UT have a similar ;law?

[Edited 2015-03-26 18:39:03]
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WarRI1
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 16):
Didn't you hear? Putin is the strong leader that the GOP wishes that they could have, instead of that wuss Obama



You mean this was not a Democratic sponsored law that was passed?  
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Aaron747
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
In Pastafarianism, rum and beer are sacred beverages.

Can't restaurant owners now claim their religious liberty is being violated by liquor licenses?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

LOL

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):

It's sad that a law like this has to exist. It should be unspoken that transactions between private parties are their business and people may choose whom they do or do not want to associate or do business with based on whatever criteria they wish. It's simply not the government's place.

Sad might be the right word. There are all manner of externalities that are completely ignored by the groups pushing this kind of needless crap. The American moron meter is certainly rising to dizzying levels.
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Ken777
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
"Gen Con is under contract to hold the conference in Indianapolis through 2020. Conference spokeswoman Stacia Kirby said there are no plans to break the contract."

So let them have a "convention" with 10 or 20 people attending if they can't find a morals clause to break the contract.

All the NCAA really needs to do is to ban all playoffs in the state while the law is in effect. Industry groups can also announce bans on future conventions.

I don't know how much the DoD has operating in the state, but reviews to move military related installations would be an interesting announcement.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):

It's sad that a law like this has to exist. It should be unspoken that transactions between private parties are their business and people may choose whom they do or do not want to associate or do business with based on whatever criteria they wish.



That was the argument against civil rights - folks owning a food joint should be able to "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". That's another common phrase from before you were born.

In general terms those businesses who supposedly would be "protected" by the law are receiving ongoing benefits from the government. Their bank accounts are protected b FDIC, they enjoy access for customers by the roads for customers to use, etc.

By the way, how long do you believe that folks of color would also be targets of this law. Do you want a return to the Back of the Bus policies also?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):
Perhaps eventually, but it has to find its way through the lower courts first... which I'm guessing it likely will.

Hopefully we will be see it head to a Federal Court, with a responsible Judge handling the issue in short order.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Private entities should be able to make decisions based on whatever they wish.

Back to the old days, eh? Do you s".support that old policy of having dual water fountains in stores, one marked "White" and the other "Colored"? Separate bathrooms?

You really want to return to the "good old days"?
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Nothing good has ever come from Indiana.

The Pacers are pretty good usually.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Maybe you don't want to shop somewhere because you're a Yankees fan and the owner is a Red Sox fan, I don't care.

This is asking a person who wants small government: why does there need to be legislation for that? Why does this law need to exist? I do not shop at Wal-Mart and Chick-Fil-A. I certainly do NOT want laws for or against shopping there. So, if a person has a religious or "moral" objection to serving or selling a product to someone, why do we need big government? A bakery in suburban Portland shut down because they lost business by NOT selling to two people. I don't think the "Christian" capitalists get it. People can have all the moral objections they want. In private. People can judge all they want. In private. Once those "moral" objections come out and are used against American citizens in the United States, all bets are off. The "Christian" capitalists don't get it.
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DocLightning
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:05 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Public officials should not be allowed to discriminate,

Then you should oppose this law because it allows public officials to discriminate.

And let me be clear: the reason why racism is viewed so unfavorably today is directly because of the CRA. In your fantasy world where the CRA never happened you would still have segregation in the South today. Desegregation didn't just happen. The National Guard had to be called in.
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hoons90
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
But I don't think it should ever have to do anything with religion. The freedom of choice in private dealings should apply to everyone. To me it's just as legitimate to not want to do business with someone because they went to a rival high school. Entirely ridiculous and stupid, but legitimate.

The difference is that homosexuality is an innate predisposition, whereas your examples are not.
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:46 am

So, if people have the "moral" objection to what I do in the privacy of my home with my consenting adult partner of nine years, I can have the "moral" objection to what "Christians" do and can use this law to say "sorry... you do not hold my belief system, so I can refuse service to you." Let's see how long that holds....

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Desegregation didn't just happen. The National Guard had to be called in.


I just wonder if JFK knew LBJ would set aside his personal prejudices for the advancement of all? I just wonder if some "liberals" picked their fights based on the greater good rather than their own personal prejudices?
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
I just wonder if JFK knew LBJ would set aside his personal prejudices for the advancement of all? I just wonder if some "liberals" picked their fights based on the greater good rather than their own personal prejudices?

In LBJ's case, it was clearly motivated by self-aggrandizement and a high-falootin' quest for a glorious legacy. There was only one Big Kahuna in LBJ's world.
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Mir
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:52 am

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Washington (CNN)Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed into law on Thursday a measure that allows businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers in the name of "religious freedom."

I'd actually be okay with this, so long as businesses are required to put signs outside their doors and on their websites listing those groups that they don't wish to do business with. Then everyone else can make an informed decision about whether they want to do business with such a business.

-Mir
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BMI727
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 25):
So if you don't want to deal with a woman or a black man - you should be able to shoo them out of your store?

Frankly, yes. I don't know why you would want to, but if it is a private business, yes. Nobody has the right to do business with someone else.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
Does UT have a similar ;law?

No. My point is that organizations have no problems avoiding places where the local culture doesn't fit with their views.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
That was the argument against civil rights - folks owning a food joint should be able to "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". That's another common phrase from before you were born.

They should. It's a transaction between two private parties.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
In general terms those businesses who supposedly would be "protected" by the law are receiving ongoing benefits from the government. Their bank accounts are protected b FDIC, they enjoy access for customers by the roads for customers to use, etc.

So if you're forcing a business owner of whatever fundamentalist religious persuasion to act contrary to their beliefs to access things like FDIC protection, then you are blatantly violating "Equal protection under the law."

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
Do you want a return to the Back of the Bus policies also?

That decision is for the owner of the bus to make.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
This is asking a person who wants small government: why does there need to be legislation for that?

That's what I'm saying: there shouldn't have to be a law.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Then you should oppose this law because it allows public officials to discriminate.

That's the problem with this law. If the mayor buys police cars from Dealer B because the owner of Dealer A is (insert religion here), there's a problem. If he buys his personal car on the same basis, that's his right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
In your fantasy world where the CRA never happened you would still have segregation in the South today

And it would cost racist business owners a lot of money. If they'd rather be racist than rich, that's not my problem.

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 32):
The difference is that homosexuality is an innate predisposition, whereas your examples are not.

I don't care. If you want to not do business with someone because of their race or because you think their shirt is ugly, it's all the same to me.
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:37 am

Shouldn't Christians be the first in line to call out the people that made that law happen ? What is less Christian than discrimination ? Great law to create new atheists !

I'm not talking about gay marriage, marriage is an institution and I understand the argument that they view it as something and don't want it to change. I don't agree with that but at least I can accept their point of view.

Refusing to provide your services to some people, that's something else entirely.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:44 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):

The moment I was truly near death was when I was choking with laughter when somebody said Pastafarianism wasn't a "serious" religion, but Christianism was - despite their consumption of the body of Christ in rituals.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 21):
By Religious - we are talking about Christianity only- right?

I suppose so. In no way the could mean other religions........  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
The freedom of choice in private dealings should apply to everyone. To me it's just as legitimate to not want to do business with someone because they went to a rival high school. Entirely ridiculous and stupid, but legitimate.

The problem is that there are businesses that are between state-offered and purely privately offered ones. For example, you have free speech rights in a airport terminal despite ZRH, FRA and other airports being owned by private companies. I don't know how that goes in the U.S. - but you're allowed to hold a rally in an airport. There are businesses deemed essential for the public, like pharmacies, public transportation and even shopping malls where you can't refuse a service just because you own the shop. With a restaurant I see no problem refusing service to gays, blacks, Catholics, Jews, pugs, mugs, Pastafarians or shitheads.

There are places where rendering professional service comes first, and your personal, private opinion second.

But if there is religious freedom for private businesses, then restaurants and bars and stores should be allowed selling rum and beer to 9-years olds because they're, as our enlightened member DocLightning rightly says, are sacred juices for Pastafarians.

Or does that conflict with public health laws? Oh. Damn.


David
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JJJ
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:55 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
Or does that conflict with public health laws? Oh. Damn

Public health laws are a communist construct destined to choke honest business.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:24 am

The smart thing for some of the businesses in fields like wedding related services and products would be to take a policy and advertise as being 'GLTBQ friendly'. When some businesses see a decline due to their anti-GLTBQ attitudes, maybe they will either go out of business or adjust.
 
hoons90
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):

Frankly, yes. I don't know why you would want to, but if it is a private business, yes. Nobody has the right to do business with someone else.

...The same private business that gets their license from the government to operate as a business. The same government that is responsible for protecting human rights.

If you're getting a business license from the government, or operating under the jurisdiction of a government and if the government has anti-discrimination laws, your business should abide by them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):

So if you're forcing a business owner of whatever fundamentalist religious persuasion to act contrary to their beliefs to access things like FDIC protection, then you are blatantly violating "Equal protection under the law."

I don't see why merely allowing a homosexual into your business prevents you from practicing your religion? Is there a religion that forbids one from allowing a homosexual from entering their business? Does the store owner turn homosexual when another homosexual enters their store? I don't think so...


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I don't care. If you want to not do business with someone because of their race or because you think their shirt is ugly, it's all the same to me.

Fortunately, there are many other governments out there that do care and know how to distinguish between what are human rights issues and what aren't. I guess Indiana isn't one of them. Maybe eventually they'll realize that they were on the wrong side of history.

[Edited 2015-03-27 04:51:14]
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Francoflier
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 21):
By Religious - we are talking about Christianity only- right?

Let's wait until a Muslim family-run business in Indiana refuses to employ or serve a person based on the fact that he is Christian and see if that's true...

 

[Edited 2015-03-27 04:47:21]
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Can't restaurant owners now claim their religious liberty is being violated by liquor licenses?

Indiana would first have to recognize Pastafarianism as an official religion.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):
Does UT have a similar ;law?

I think UT's law was a compromise between the two sectors, which makes it different.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
But I don't think it should ever have to do anything with religion.

Oh but in this case it does. Hence the "Religious Freedom" name to it. And it targets specifically LGBT folks. I wonder if a Muslim or Jew were to walk to a Christian store, would they be refused service?

Quoting francoflier (Reply 42):
Let's wait until a Muslim family-run business in Indiana refuses to employ or serve a person based on the fact that he is Christian and see if that's true...

I can't wait to see how this unravels.

Mrs Betty Bowers nailed it:
Boycotting Indiana is like boycotting a prison. It seems rather disingenuous to pretend I would ever want to go there in the first place.
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blueflyer
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
So if you're forcing a business owner of whatever fundamentalist religious persuasion to act contrary to their beliefs to access things like FDIC protection, then you are blatantly violating "Equal protection under the law."

Or maybe, just maybe, "equal protection under the law" means the law as it stands applies equally to everyone, whether they believe in a holy spaghetti or not.
 
mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
It's sad that a law like this has to exist.

It really doesn't have to..

Gov. Mike Pence (R) was pressed by conservative radio host if something happened in Indiana to justify signing an anti-gay religious freedom bill into law. Pence said he wasn't aware of any recent examples.

"I'm not aware of cases and controversies. "

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...ligious-freedom-bill-greg-garrison
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DocLightning
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 43):
Indiana would first have to recognize Pastafarianism as an official religion.

You mean a law respecting an establishment of religion? Oh no no no no NO... You see, that's not how it works.
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:59 pm

What if paying taxes is against my religion?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 43):
Indiana would first have to recognize Pastafarianism as an official religion.

You mean a law respecting an establishment of religion? Oh no no no no NO... You see, that's not how it works.

No. I meant like recognizing that Pastafarianism IS a religion (should have worded it another way). IN doesn't have to establish it as the state religion.

You know how some states have been with Pastafarianism. If I decide to create a religion called Einsteinboricuaism, should the state recognize it as a religion and allow me to implement my own things? In the meantime Christianity, Judaism, and others get the official nod about being one.
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 40):
The smart thing for some of the businesses in fields like wedding related services and products would be to take a policy and advertise as being 'GLTBQ friendly'. When some businesses see a decline due to their anti-GLTBQ attitudes, maybe they will either go out of business or adjust.

Thank you. That is what I was trying to say but I did not do a good job of it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
This is asking a person who wants small government: why does there need to be legislation for that?

That's what I'm saying: there shouldn't have to be a law.

Obviously there does. The law in Indiana that says "Christianity is more important than individual rights." There also should not be a law that says any two consenting adults can sign a state issued contract (marriage) but there needs to be because you right wingers can't help yourself. You all use the "but the law does not say..." or "what about my religious objections?" to tell the rest of us how to live. Well, religion has NOTHING AT ALL WHATSOEVER to do with law. This is not a theocracy. No one is standing in the way of you not going to a gay paper signing and nothing is stopping people from not going to a discriminatory business. Only now, in Indiana, businesses can legally show their true colors and that religion means more than money.

Since that is the case, let the church support them. I am serious. Let the churches give money to keep the doors of these discriminatory businesses open. Let's see how long that lasts....
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