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luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 198):

Yet it's still part of the official Republican Party line...

Your choice to practice the religion of your choice.
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 200):
Your choice to practice the religion of your choice.

As long as it is Christian based and against LGBT equality. It is in the party platform. Go look it up.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
flyguy89
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 200):

Yet it's still part of the official Republican Party line...

Sounds like that's the Republicans' problem.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 200):
Your choice to practice the religion of your choice.

You have the constitutionally-protected right to freely exercise your religion. So long as you practicing your religion does not violate the rights of others, the government has an obligation to defend your rights. It's one of the primary, most basic functions of government.
 
Scruffer
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 185):
Using this logic, if someone fires a gun at me and misses, you're saying I don't have the right to return fire and kill them because it's the bullet not the firing of the gun that can kill me. I would first have to allow the bullet to strike me before I could defend myself?

In many states and countries you do not have that right!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 195):
Muddy water for sure, I will not lie, and I don't want to be hypocritical. I am pretty firm on people not being able to kick black people out of their shop for being black, nor am I for forcing black people to cater at a KKK hate rally (not that the KKK would want them to but you know what I'm saying.) Where is the line?

Going off of some comments above, since the KKK would be doing something that is legal the shop owner would be compelled to provide service. People at the top of this thread arguing against this law want it to be illegal to turn down any business no matter what the shop owner thinks / wants.


Quoting seb146 (Reply 199):
And, as some of us have pointed out before, the free market is deciding whether this law is a good thing or not. Indiana is set to lose billions of dollars. The free market and equality are speaking. If the evangelical right wing Christians don't like how the free market responds, maybe they should not pass laws like this instead of screaming they are the victims.

Indiana as a state will feel little to no effect on this law. Some businesses will choose to move to Indiana, others will leave based on factors they deem important. Life will go on. If companies and the free market was concerned with religious freedom / gay rights / or anything related to human rights then many countries across the globe would be off limits to them. Yet Apple still happily does business in China, the middle east, and Russia, .....

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 184):
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 184):
I've read the actual Indian bill, and found these provisions hair-rising and both hilarious. I understand why there is such a fuss about this Indianese bill. I just hope anybody founds his own religion right now. Right now.

The term would be Indianian. If you have read the bill why do you keep bringing up the bombastic statement that it allows a person to do anything they wish as long as it is their religion? It does not offer absolute language for anything besides the first couple of sections of the law where it talks about definitions. For example, it is against my religion to pay state / county / municipal tax. Yet the court can hear my defence and will then consider that defence as a legal defence for about 4 seconds then rule against me.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 200):
Your choice to practice the religion of your choice.

As long as you're white, rich and heterosexual,. In that order.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:53 am

Due to a recent Federal Circuit Court decision, Indiana has to recognize same-gender marriages. This law more about getting votes from the 'religious' in a reaction to that court decision. Too many of the religious see gay marriage, like abortion, something to fight against to assure their place in their belief of heaven in the afterlife.

I do think that both 'sides' need to be reasonable. Business persons have to recognize times have changed as to how we treat GLTBQ's much like we had to as to persons of color, different ethnicity and faith beliefs. GLTBQ's also shouldn't bully a business person with threats to do something the business owner has a conflict with. If getting married, would it be better to have someone better trained and with the right attitude to do the photos or provide the catering ? There needs to be some balance by both sides or all we have is unnecessary conflicts that make both look bad.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 205):
GLTBQ's also shouldn't bully a business person with threats to do something the business owner has a conflict with.

I do agree that some LGBT folks bully business in a "just because I can" manner. But as I've stated in this thread: if you're going to decline service to LGBT then own it and say so before I even consider you. We can look elsewhere instead. But don't come out in the end to tell me "oh, even though my lord and savior mingled with everyone, I find that I can't so I won't serve you".

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 205):
If getting married, would it be better to have someone better trained and with the right attitude to do the photos or provide the catering ?

How is that possible if no one will state who they're willing to provide services to. Imagine going through 50 different photographers, all equally trained and with the right attitude, and then finding that about 40 of them declined because they don't serve gays.

Would be WAY easier to discard them right off the bat because we already know who they're willing to serve. Keeps me happy for time saved and keeps them happy for not having to deal with us.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
Churches not paying taxes =/= tax dollars subsidizing them.

But churches rely on services rendered by the government. I suppose the worldly and not the spiritual police will kick in when the mob of one church begins to harass the Sunday service of another.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I think we're going over each others' heads here. You're employer has every right to make those demands of you (and you also have the right to quit), the government does not.

I work for the guv'mint, but I have the right to quit that job. But never in my mind I would refuse to do that work, simply because I'm a professional first. Even if I would not like Muslims I would still do my best to save their lives and improve their quality of life.

Quoting Scruffer (Reply 203):
It does not offer absolute language for anything besides the first couple of sections of the law where it talks about definitions. For example, it is against my religion to pay state / county / municipal tax. Yet the court can hear my defence and will then consider that defence as a legal defence for about 4 seconds then rule against me.

The law very clearly talks about an "undue burden" placed on the religious freedom, and that the government has to take measures to minimize that burden.

I suppose having to pay taxes is very much higher burden to a pizza delivery service than having to honor a contract and serve pizza to a wedding which turns out to be The Zombie Gay Apocalypse.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:46 pm

Let me clarify, because my last post was a phone that I'm still figuring out how to copy paste with this site.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 198):
Quoting luckyone (Reply 194):
Well if some would have their way...the right to marry. There's not much point in arguing that one.

Obviously that's getting taken care of.
Quoting luckyone (Reply 200):
Yet it's still part of the official Republican Party line...
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 198):
Quoting luckyone (Reply 194):
Why should the government defend your choices if you don't want to reciprocate that respect?

We're getting very vague here, what types of choices are you describing?
Quoting luckyone (Reply 200):
Your choice to practice the religion of your choice.

Choice being the operative word that so many social conservatives want to impose upon homosexuals, but ignore in themselves and their chosen faith.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 208):
Choice being the operative word that so many social conservatives want to impose upon homosexuals, but ignore in themselves and their chosen faith.

I don't understand--semi rhetorically--how this is even an option. How is sexuality different from race or gender? Why not "my religion doesn't believe in black people so I will not serve them--ya know, because Jesus".
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tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 63):
The whole thing is surreal. Is there some sort of space-time distortion bringing the midwest US back to the 18th Century I'm not aware of?

it feels like what my parents tell me about Tehran in 1975....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 95):
Even if the photographer asks, the couple can decline to provide that information, at which point both sides have a decision to make.

Well, they can just lie.... they still have freedom of speech, right?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 174):
I can't really speak to the complexities of the German healthcare system, but what moron goes to an institution run by the largest, most vocal pro-life anti-abortion organization in the world and expects them to provide the morning-after pill?

My Catholic parish actually ran a rally about significantly softening the churches stance in abortion. .. so, I think there are some more vocal groups out there...

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 209):
I don't understand--semi rhetorically--how this is even an option. How is sexuality different from race or gender? Why not "my religion doesn't believe in black people so I will not serve them--ya know, because Jesus".

Doc said this once, and he's so right. There are people for whom religion makes them better people. And there are people for whom religion makes them better than other people. Politicians co-opt religion to gain the support of the latter.

"The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows, because it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony
 
mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 206):
I do agree that some LGBT folks bully business in a "just because I can" manner.

Of course ., there are rude and obnoxious people of every race and religion.

One thing is for certain tho - We will not be hearing the words "President Pence" in 2017

Quoting luckyone (Reply 208):

Choice being the operative word that so many social conservatives want to impose upon homosexuals, but ignore in themselves and their chosen faith.

Correct, People choose their faith, they choose to be unkind, they choose to racist, they choose to impose their beliefs on on other - the don't choose to be gay or to be of a particular race,
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DocLightning
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 212):
Correct, People choose their faith, they choose to be unkind, they choose to racist, they choose to impose their beliefs on on other - the don't choose to be gay or to be of a particular race,

This is why I honestly think that the entire idea of religion as a protected class needs to be revisited.

Religious BELIEF and IDENTITY need to be protected. But religious BEHAVIOR needs to be subject to secular laws.

Right now, if I am a parent in Idaho, I can just let my kid die of an easily curable disease like pneumonia and claim religion as the defense (successfully). But if I allow the same thing to happen and claim anything other than religion as my defense, then I have no defense.

Too many fists are allowed to impact too many noses as long as those fists clutch a rosary.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 213):
Religious BELIEF and IDENTITY need to be protected. But religious BEHAVIOR needs to be subject to secular laws.

SO maybe it all boils down to the question of is being gay a choice? Even if you believe that the answer is YES, you cannot deny that your religion in ALSO a choice.
Step into my office, baby
 
scamp
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 172):
Or should we now require Lane Bryant to sell men's underwear too?

This isn't about what Lane Bryant or anyone else sells, it's about whom they sell to. No one should be able to tell a business what product or service they sell, within legal parameters. Should Lane Bryant decide to bar men from shopping there might become an issue.

I am wondering who starts a business with the idea that they are only going to serve whom they want to serve. Seems to me that a business is started to make money, not restrict the customer base.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:52 pm

Moving on, Arkansas Gov. Hutchinson has ordered Arkansas' RFRA be recalled and its language ammended after of all folks WalMart voiced their opinion about the bill.
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 205):
GLTBQ's also shouldn't bully a business person with threats to do something the business owner has a conflict with.

LGBT community is not bullying people in how they believe. We are telling people it is not acceptable to force your beliefs on others or for businesses to deny service because of personal beliefs.

As with marriage, LGBT are not demanding that religion perform ceremonies, just for two consenting adults to sign a state issued contract.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
flyguy89
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 207):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I think we're going over each others' heads here. You're employer has every right to make those demands of you (and you also have the right to quit), the government does not.

I work for the guv'mint, but I have the right to quit that job. But never in my mind I would refuse to do that work, simply because I'm a professional first.


If you work for the government, they would be your employer. But the government otherwise cannot coerce you to do your job. Going back to your previous example as a scientist, the government could not force you to analyze data. Depending on your work contract, your employer can demand you do your job, fire you or you could quit.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 208):
Choice being the operative word that so many social conservatives want to impose upon homosexuals, but ignore in themselves and their chosen faith.


Frankly, it doesn’t matter what the social conservatives believe. As long as they don’t violate the rights of homosexuals, there’s nothing you can do if they don’t want to play together.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 216):
all folks WalMart voiced their opinion about the bill.

This is good and bad at the same time.

Good: the bill has been stopped and will hopefully be revisited.
Bad: the governor is caving in because a corporation (HQed in the state and the largest employer) weighed in. Which begs the question: had WalMart expressed support or remained silent, would this bill be law already? I'm more concerned about the fact that the governor is calling for the bill to be recalled because a corporation thinks it bad, not because people think it's bad or because it's unnecessary. A few hours ago, he was dead set with the version as it stands.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 218):
Frankly, it doesn’t matter what the social conservatives believe.

No it doesn't. Because at the end of the day a social conservative is going to dislike anything today or tomorrow that is or will be different from what they were accustomed to yesterday. The rest is just an external rationalization.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 218):
As long as they don’t violate the rights of homosexuals, there’s nothing you can do if they don’t want to play together.

Privatley, you are absolutely correct. But that is not what is happening with regards to laws such as this, which are with respect to public interaction. Such social conservatives would be the first to scream bloody murder if someone turned them away based on a belief, or their choice. And in fact, preachers in particular make bank (and shuttle it to candidates like Mike Huckabee...) about how Christians are persecuted for being Christians.

[Edited 2015-04-01 10:44:55]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 219):
Bad: the governor is caving in because a corporation (HQed in the state and the largest employer) weighed in. Which begs the question: had WalMart expressed support or remained silent, would this bill be law already? I'm more concerned about the fact that the governor is calling for the bill to be recalled because a corporation thinks it bad, not because people think it's bad or because it's unnecessary. A few hours ago, he was dead set with the version as it stands.

It wasn't just because of them. There were countless organizations and businesses that lobbied against the signing. Basically anyone with any intelligence left saw what happened in Indiana and realized that Arkansas was heading for trouble. This law was an end run by the Social conservative wing of the GOP to get a restrictive law passed that would curry favor with their base. As usual the internal GOP echo chamber did not listen very well to the voices of reason until it was a bit too late.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 219):
Bad: the governor is caving in because a corporation (HQed in the state and the largest employer) weighed in. Which begs the question: had WalMart expressed support or remained silent, would this bill be law already? I'm more concerned about the fact that the governor is calling for the bill to be recalled because a corporation thinks it bad, not because people think it's bad or because it's unnecessary. A few hours ago, he was dead set with the version as it stands.

True the reasoning kind of sucks. But at the same time, isn't this the "free market" at work?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 218):
If you work for the government, they would be your employer. But the government otherwise cannot coerce you to do your job. Going back to your previous example as a scientist, the government could not force you to analyze data. Depending on your work contract, your employer can demand you do your job, fire you or you could quit.

We have some "way out" if one is employed, and does not want to do some things. Does not matter if the employer is private, or an entity of the government. If something threatens my health, or if the employer demands that I do something illegal, then I can refuse that, and still collect my pay. Otherwise, I have to look for a new job elsewhere.

The whole problem can be summarized as Kontrahierungszwang in German, mandatory contracts. It clearly encroaches on the right to chose with whom you do business.

Some examples, in no particular order, as I'm summarizing a German Wikipedia page here.
- companies involved with public transport (railways, buses, airlines, taxis...) have to carry everybody who is willing to pay the ticket
- pharmacies have to sell you drugs, and for example can't refuse the morning-after pill if a prescription is shown
- the German post is a private company, but due to its near-monopoly, it is forced to contract with anybody who is willing to pay the postage
- in some states of Germany, savings banks must offer a bank account to anybody (and the EU decided in 2014 that all inhabitants of the EU have the right to an account, even if somebody is homeless and cannot provide a mailing address)
- any company with a monopoly or a near-monopoly in its area can be forced to enter a contract
- health insurances have to take anybody as customers
- wholesalers of newspapers have to deliver the products to any point of sale within their area of operation, and also have to offer any print product. If a kiosk in Oberstdorf wants to sell the Ketchikan Daily News, they can always procure that through their wholesaler.

If a pizza restaurant in my neighborhood is the only one, and if it is an unreasonable burden to go elsewhere to eat a pizza, I can sue that restaurant if they don't serve me. Does not matter who I am. Gay or not, black or not.


David

[Edited 2015-04-01 11:06:30]

[Edited 2015-04-01 11:07:47]
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Someone learned a lesson

"My son Seth signed the petition asking me, Dad, the governor, to veto this bill," he added. "And he gave me permission to make that reference, and it shows that families -- and there's a generational difference of opinion on these issues."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...igious-freedom-bill_n_6985604.html
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WarRI1
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 224):
Someone learned a lesson



It shows that when people pay attention, things can change. The outcry was certainly needed.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting Scruffer (Reply 203):
Going off of some comments above, since the KKK would be doing something that is legal the shop owner would be compelled to provide service. People at the top of this thread arguing against this law want it to be illegal to turn down any business no matter what the shop owner thinks / wants.

Is it ok for a cake owner (black or even white) to deny someone's requests to write "N****rs burn in hell" on a cake? Of course it's an extreme example, but I like to get to a point on one side of the spectrum we can agree is unacceptable and then get less extreme until we reach the point where it becomes acceptable or not

I think there are reasons to deny services and times where it's inappropriate bigotry. Where they meet is pretty gray...

Quoting luckyone (Reply 216):
Moving on, Arkansas Gov. Hutchinson has ordered Arkansas' RFRA be recalled and its language ammended after of all folks WalMart voiced their opinion about the bill.

What is the point of the bill if they forbid discrimination based on sexual orientation? It seems like there was no problem before, gay marriage will be legal soon so now they're acting to stop (pretty specifically even if they don't say it) catering gay weddings, and now they're supposedly moving to remove that.

My guess is they're amending it vs killing it to save face, or they're gonna "fix it" while leaving the opportunity to discriminate in there. IDK, I just don't see the point of trying to pass a fixed version since they'd be removing the whole reason behind the bill
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 222):
But at the same time, isn't this the "free market" at work?

The free market, IMO, would be WalMart threatening to move from Arkansas or executing plans to relocate had it passed, or saying how the bill will harm their business, stopping short of suggesting the course of action to take (which should be implicit). It's like the church: they can give advice on how things may affect people but to give out suggestions is a different story.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 225):
It shows that when people pay attention, things can change. The outcry was certainly needed.

I'll give it a week or so before Rush Limbaugh goes on radio to question the son's conservative values, decry how gay marriage is splitting families, and how Gov. Hutchinson is weak for listening to his family instead of ignoring him.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 195):
Huh? You don't see 0.6%* of Americans (Muslims) or 2.4%* of Americans (atheists) going to a bakery that is owned by a Christian (one of 83%* of the over 300,000,000 Americans?)

99% of those transactions either party wouldn't care or ask... If a company advertised themselves as a Christian/Catholic bakery I would very surprised if an atheist went by virtue of their belief system.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 195):
Where is the line?

Likely will end up in the courts to decide.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 195):
I would think gay Christian marriages are way more biblical than straight atheist ones

I wouldn't disagree with that statement.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 196):
is Christianity really under that much of an attack that laws like this need to be on the books?

No it is a bad law, but it should, and has, opened somewhat a public discussion on individual liberties vs. equality, which is an important discussion to continuously have.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 199):
And, as some of us have pointed out before, the free market is deciding whether this law is a good thing or not. Indiana is set to lose billions of dollars. The free market and equality are speaking.

Free market does not decide laws nor should it ever. By saying that there is a free market deciding laws implies that there is an exchange of goods to create/eliminate those laws. Group think should not dictate laws either as it threatens the idea of open public discourse.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 211):
There are people for whom religion makes them better people. And there are people for whom religion makes them better than other people. Politicians co-opt religion to gain the support of the latter.

You could easily say that about any kind of activist for any set of beliefs or passionately believed values/ethics

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 213):
Religious BELIEF and IDENTITY need to be protected. But religious BEHAVIOR needs to be subject to secular laws.

If belief and identity dictate behavior how do you project it yet subject it to secular law?

Quoting luckyone (Reply 222):
But at the same time, isn't this the "free market" at work?

No.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 226):
My guess is they're amending it vs killing it to save face, or they're gonna "fix it" while leaving the opportunity to discriminate in there. IDK, I just don't see the point of trying to pass a fixed version since they'd be removing the whole reason behind the bill

I'm not sure what kind of RFRA Indiana had before, but I wouldn't see a problem with them using this opportunity to match the language of the federal bill. If it was similar in the first place then your exactly right.
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 226):
What is the point of the bill if they forbid discrimination based on sexual orientation?

Ask the Georgia legislature that, as one of their members is on record as saying such a clause would "gut" the bill.

Now, I realize that I've been on the record as against this bill, and I still am. I think it's redundant. I think that individuals should be allowed to express their religious beliefs...but here's where this bill goes awry for me. For starters, aside from the fact that some/many interpret the Bible to be against homosexuality gay marriage (I could speak for quite awhile about the accuracy of such claims but that's a different thread), the Bible doesn't actually tell you that it's ok to turn people away for it. THAT is my beef with bills like this that have seen politicians co-opt my faith and others' ignorance of said faith. And that's what happened when a few chucklheads from the FRC/FFC/NOM stood behind Gov. Pence and said that baker's wouldn't be required to cater a marriage. If someone is so hellbent to avoid gays, aside from the fact that I feel that person is being very selective in the application of their belief, I think they have every right to do so in their private life. But when you open your door as a public business you're opening your door for every single sinner out there to walk through it. And the Bible tells you to turn away from sin, but every single person who walks around today is breaking at least one rule in Leviticus, but nobody calls for protection from them. Nothing about that is Biblical. In addition, I'll quote Jan Brewer here, and say that the bill creates more problems than it solves. It's going to backfire against Christians.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 228):
No.

How not? It's a private enterprise voicing its concerns to the state government. It just so happens that said enterprise is a multibillion dollar business.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 227):
The free market, IMO, would be WalMart threatening to move from Arkansas or executing plans to relocate had it passed, or saying how the bill will harm their business, stopping short of suggesting the course of action to take (which should be implicit).

While unlikely they threatened to move, they may have had a discussion behind closed doors. Or threatened to cut off their political contributions, if applicable.

[Edited 2015-04-01 12:42:23]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting Scruffer (Reply 203):
People at the top of this thread arguing against this law want it to be illegal to turn down any business no matter what the shop owner thinks / wants.

who wants that? You only have to provide the products and services you chose to provide to whoever wants to buy them.
If you offer custom writing on a cake, you can say custom writing* (*no racist slogans/hate speech). What you can't do is (*no racist slogans/hate speech, unless you are white and it is a supremacist slogan).

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 230):

I heartily agree with you - even when you did not touch the topic of religious pluralism. As the saying goes, everybody is an atheist in regard of those Gods he does not believe in. In regard to Hinduism, I'm an atheist. In regard to satanists, I'm an atheist. I'm an unbeliever according to many, many religious books. Should they all turn me away in a grocery shop?

What these people sorely miss is...

"I want to order cakes for the gay wedding of a friend."
- "A gay wedding? How is that like? Different from straight ones?"
"Not that different. You'll just see many more gays."
- "Okay. I've to say that I don't know any homosexual, and I'm afraid of them somehow."
"Don't worry. Either you are homosexual, or you are not. We cannot make anybody the way we are. We're happy if we get these cakes!"

Hey, these people are customers first, and gays second. Likewise, a shop owner would be a bad shop owner if he was a Christian bigot first, and a businessman second.

What does it hurt when somebody sells cakes to gays? Nothing! There's money to be made!

You can still preach heterosexual marriage and traditional family values while selling cakes to everybody. The law is just a vehicle to make society a worse one. Where one cannot be sure of being treated fair if one happens to be gay, happens to be black, happens to be a Muslim.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Maverick623
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 214):
SO maybe it all boils down to the question of is being gay a choice? Even if you believe that the answer is YES, you cannot deny that your religion in ALSO a choice.

Even if it was a choice (which it isn't), as long as it harms nobody, it should be protected. Period.

Do you know how many murders have been committed directly in the name of "gayness"? I don't, but that's probably because it's pretty close to zero.

Do you know how many murders have been committed directly in the name of religion? Billions.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 233):
Even if it was a choice (which it isn't), as long as it harms nobody, it should be protected. Period.

I believe don't believe religion and homosexuality to be choices. One grows up with the beliefs of the parents, and so one can't really choose a religion. If the society is 99% Christian, it's also hard to be the lone Muslim or Hindu - because of lack of societal acceptance.

One can only choose not to openly show the homosexuality, like a staunch and firm Christian believer can keep his religion private.

The majority of the psychologists think that stuff like pedophilia is not a choice, too.

Even if things were a choice, there should be no discrimination, and there should be laws that protect the people against discrimination.

What also irks me about the Indiana RFRA is that it gives a special protection status to people who have firmly held beliefs, to people who firmly adhere to their religion. Why is religion protected better than, say, political views? If the RFRA is not repealed by either the Indiana senate or a court, I wish a PFRA - a Political Freedom Restoration Act.

Any shop owner shall be free to turn away anybody for political reasons.

And then we'll back that up with a LSFRA, a Love and Sexual Freedom Restoration Act. After all, whom we love and with whom we have sex with is also an important factor that makes up our personalities, like belief and religion do.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 234):
One grows up with the beliefs of the parents, and so one can't really choose a religion.

Sure you can. People change religions all the time.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 235):
Sure you can. People change religions all the time.

That's new to me. Because religion comes from "religio", meaning "restrain" or "tie back". Being religious means having a profound and constant spiritual heritage, something which cannot be changed like pants or the choice of holiday resort. I haven't heard of a significant number of Jews turning Muslim, or vice versa. Cases of increasing or decreasing religious feelings occur often, but not a change of religion.

Religion makes no sense if you could change it easily.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 236):
That's new to me. Because religion comes from "religio", meaning "restrain" or "tie back". Being religious means having a profound and constant spiritual heritage, something which cannot be changed like pants or the choice of holiday resort. I haven't heard of a significant number of Jews turning Muslim, or vice versa. Cases of increasing or decreasing religious feelings occur often, but not a change of religion.

Religion makes no sense if you could change it easily.


David

I can only speak for the Baptist/Methodist household in which I rased (in the South we call that a mixed marriage...). I was brought up to believe that one had to ask for Salvation (Baptist term)/accept Christ (Methodist term). In theory, it's the parents' job to lead the proverbial horse to water, but the horse still has to drink. One must specifically ask Christ for forgiveness and eternal life. To support such examples, in youth group the examples often given were "just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar, doesn't make him a cookie" or "If you live in McDonald's it doesn't make you a hamburger," etc etc to describe individuals who were present in church without being "believers/saved/real Christians."
 
mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 236):
Religion makes no sense if you could change it easily.

Your words - not mines

How or become Catholic
http://www.catholic.com/documents/how-to-become-a-catholic

How or become Jewish
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=27282

How or become "Christian"
http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp

How to become a Pasrafarian
http://www.venganza.org/join/
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tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 234):
The majority of the psychologists think that stuff like pedophilia is not a choice, too.

you mean there are still some that think that is a choice? In Germany we just had an ad campaign along the lines of "pedophilia is not a crime. You are not responsible for what you feel, you are only responsible for what you do! Seek out help!" with website given http://www.kein-taeter-werden.de/ (don't become an abuser).
A while after that some tv magazines interviewed some psychiatrists and yup.. it works. To the point that new patients where bagging to be castrated because they don't want to feel that, think that .. and so on. Doesn't seem to much as a choice.
The NY times actually had an article about that program: http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/1...-not-a-crime-rutgers-margo-kaplan/

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 235):
Sure you can. People change religions all the time.

Being religious isn't as simple as choosing which car to buy. If I put a gun to your head and told you to believe in the tenets of Islam, could you? You could say you believed all day, but you wouldn't. If you put a gun to a Christian's head and told them not to believe in God, could they simply stop believing?

So no, it's not as simple as "well I guess I'm Muslim today." People can have sudden conversions/deconversions, but that's a lot different from simply making a choice.

What people can control is whether to look up evidence or pretend it doesn't exist, choose to impose their beliefs on others etc
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 227):
I'll give it a week or so before Rush Limbaugh goes on radio to question the son's conservative values, decry how gay marriage is splitting families, and how Gov. Hutchinson is weak for listening to his family instead of ignoring him.

If not sooner. We have to keep the churning, nobody does anything correctly according to him, but him, and of course his far right fans.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
luckyone
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 241):
If not sooner. We have to keep the churning, nobody does anything correctly according to him, but him, and of course his far right fans.

My mother has been listening to him almost daily since I can remember. It astonishes me that 1) accounting for changes in his voice and appropriate name changes one can take his program from today, and then listen to an episode from 1992, and unless you were well-versed in the political figures of the day, it would be impossible to distinguish the two because he keeps saying the exact same thing, and 2) how earnestly some people want to be told they're right.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 238):
Your words - not mines

How or become Catholic
http://www.catholic.com/documents/how-to-become-a-catholic

...

How to become a Pasrafarian
http://www.venganza.org/join/

Sure, one can become a Christian, or a Muslim. But it's as easy as being deeply in love with your wife and then deeply being in love with another. As I understand it, love is not a choice. Love comes and love goes, without a conscious, wilful decision.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 239):
you mean there are still some that think that is a choice?

Sadly, yes. Because the notion of pedophilia being somewhat inborn is seen as an excuse. I know that there are efforts to reach out to pedophiles, and help to channel their desires somewhere it does not hurt children.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 240):

Superb reply, thank you.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 240):
What people can control is whether to look up evidence or pretend it doesn't exist,

there is no evidence that something like evidence even really exists. You can chose to pretend we have proof the world is real, but that doesn't make it true.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 240):
Being religious isn't as simple as choosing which car to buy.

deciding what car to buy took me two years...  
While you are correct in the strict sense, people do still change what they believe, they often just don't realize that they moved so far away from the religion they think they are part of that they are closer to another one.
Take rich Christians, they all know a rich person is highly unlikely to get to heaven, yet most try to become even richer. So, if they really believe what they say, and maybe think, they obviously don't want to go to heaven. Hence we can conclude they want to go to hell, and therefore they are not Christians at all....
Or for this case, a christian store owner that discriminates against anyone at all, violated the only Christian commandment there is, unless he wants to be discriminated by others. So, if he follows his claimed believe, he is violating it at the same time....

Fundamentalists are hardly ever consistent in their argument.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 228):
No it is a bad law, but it should, and has, opened somewhat a public discussion on individual liberties vs. equality, which is an important discussion to continuously have.

But when one ruling class tells the rest of the country that they (the ruling class) are under attack and there needs to be strict laws to protect the ruling class, there is a problem. Christians and Christianity are not under attack. The only thing under attack (if one can call it that) is equality.

I think the point evangelicals keep missing is they are not under attack and their beliefs are not under attack but classes of people wanting equality.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 234):
I believe don't believe religion and homosexuality to be choices.

People can change religions. Not as easily as one can change pants, but we can. If you are heterosexual, just try to change and like it.
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mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 240):
So no, it's not as simple as "well I guess I'm Muslim today." People can have sudden conversions/deconversions, but that's a lot different from simply making a choice.

I don't think so. You can convert from one religion to the next (each with different values) - it might be a process and take a while - but in the end it is a choice.

People choose to stop being Catholic all the time!

[Edited 2015-04-01 14:40:15]
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tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 243):
I know that there are efforts to reach out to pedophiles,

from what I read in the NYT not in the USA, at least not as a systematic effort. Which is sad, because in the end it gets more kids hurt.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 243):
But it's as easy as being deeply in love with your wife and then deeply being in love with another

most of my friends are in the 30 to 50 range and there are still some that fell in love head over heals all the time. Although I think They just didn't happen to fall deeply in love yet, the same is possible for believe systems.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 246):
People choose to stop being Catholic all the time!

they stop being Catholic, at some point they realize that and then decide to leave the church. They didn't usually decide to stop being Catholic, that was a process or just a realisation.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
mt99
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 247):
they stop being Catholic, at some point they realize that and then decide to leave the church. They didn't usually decide to stop being Catholic, that was a process or just a realisation.

But nothing stops them from pickup up Buddhism,
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flyingturtle
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 248):
But nothing stops them from pickup up Buddhism,

Well, but somehow the Christians in Syria have problems switching their religion to Islam in order to save their lives in the face of the ISIS. They would be stupid not to switch religions, aren't they? Why don't they make this simple, live-preserving choice?

They could switch back to being Christians in due time.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
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