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flyguy89
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 445):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 444):
That's precisely what the free market does, make people pay for their discrimination.

And that is what the free market did.


Exactly.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 446):
Yeah, the "free market" worked so well at stopping discrimination that Congress had to pass a law in 1963 telling Southern lunch counters that Blacks could sit there, too.


Pretty hard to conclude that when it was the governments who mandated segregation via Jim Crow legislation and "Black Codes". The US government had been successfully desegregated since the Civil War until "Progressive" Woodrow Wilson was elected and re-segregated it, affirming "separate but equal" laws, codes and ordinances.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 446):
The "free market" also worked so well to end slavery that we had to fight a war to end it.

When government prohibits an entire population from participating in the market place and legitimizes the violation of their fundamental rights, that's the opposite of a free market.
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 450):
When government prohibits an entire population from participating in the market place and legitimizes the violation of their fundamental rights, that's the opposite of a free market.

It is no longer 1850.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 447):
"Free market forces" do not include things like harassment, arson threats and death threats, which were all experienced by the family who owned memories pizza.

Oy... You are the only one who keeps going on a tiny, small minority. You right wingers keep on about how a tiny small minority do not represent the Republican party, yet you all project a tiny, small minority of "liberals" on to anyone who disagrees with your views.

To be clear: A huge and vast majority of people DO NOT AGREE with violent threats that have been put out by idiots. However, a huge and vast majority of Americans DO agree with the free market and that Christianity and free speech are NOT under attack. Only freedom for ALL is under attack by Christian right wingers.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 451):


Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 447):
"Free market forces" do not include things like harassment, arson threats and death threats, which were all experienced by the family who owned memories pizza.

Oy... You are the only one who keeps going on a tiny, small minority. You right wingers keep on about how a tiny small minority do not represent the Republican party, yet you all project a tiny, small minority of "liberals" on to anyone who disagrees with your views.

To be clear: A huge and vast majority of people DO NOT AGREE with violent threats that have been put out by idiots. However, a huge and vast majority of Americans DO agree with the free market and that Christianity and free speech are NOT under attack. Only freedom for ALL is under attack by Christian right wingers.

I am just responding to your misinformation. You, and several others in this thread, keep claiming the memories pizza joint was closed due to "free market forces". I have repeatedly corrected this misinformation on this very thread and will do so again - it closed because the owners felt that their safety was compromised due to arson and death threats, neither of which have anything whatsoever to do with "free market forces".

So if you'll stop repeating falsehoods, you won't need to get so defensive when you get called out on them.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
Sorry, no. Human dignity in and of itself is not a fundamental right

It is... just because state philosophy in the US is still stuck about 200 years ago doesn't mean that it is not a human right.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
enumerated in the vast majority of governing documents

just because your government denies you that right doesn't make it go away.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
For example, the Westboro Baptist Church degrades the human dignity of the LGBT community, I may find their message disgusting and hurtful, but they have every right to hold up their idiotic signs and spout their hate-filled beliefs.

That has nothing to do with each other. Religion is not regulated by the government, business is... Human dignity is inviolable and governments making laws permitting it for special groups, those with deeply held religious beliefs, is not just a crime against humanity, it is also a deeply religious fundamentalist policy. ISIS light.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
What sources? This is a subjective discussion, I’ve not seen any sources for your opinions either other than your opinion that the German constitution is best.

ah.. so.now I get it. You heard the word "human dignity", had no idea what it means and just made something up, never checking anything. ..
The German constitution is a good read, because it was ahead of the wave, but you can read it in lots of others these days. Try the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, something 25 countries agreed upon, or check the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights, who's rulings are the law of the land in 47 nations. That you don't have it is probably just a consequence of your very weak supreme court, that makes implementing universal rights difficult at best.
Then again the US still have capital punishment and life imprisonment without chance of parole..... which is torture btw ... so I am not too surprised that there is no advanced understanding of human rights, but right to life was also seen very differently not too long ago .... today we are just disgusted by those times.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:02 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 453):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
Sorry, no. Human dignity in and of itself is not a fundamental right

It is... just because state philosophy in the US is still stuck about 200 years ago doesn't mean that it is not a human right.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
enumerated in the vast majority of governing documents

just because your government denies you that right doesn't make it go away.


Now you're talking about human rights, you're conflating and confusing terms here. Fundamental rights and human rights are not one in the same. And for that matter, "human dignity" is not a specified, defined or enumerated right in either the European Convention on Human Rights or the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights or the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. Additionally, "human dignity" (however you choose to define it) hasn't been denied in the US, it's de jure granted via the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 453):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
For example, the Westboro Baptist Church degrades the human dignity of the LGBT community, I may find their message disgusting and hurtful, but they have every right to hold up their idiotic signs and spout their hate-filled beliefs.

That has nothing to do with each other.

Sure they do, you're just imposing a double-standard of religious-based discrimination being more tolerable than discrimination by other individuals.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 453):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 441):
What sources? This is a subjective discussion, I’ve not seen any sources for your opinions either other than your opinion that the German constitution is best.

ah.. so.now I get it. You heard the word "human dignity", had no idea what it means and just made something up, never checking anything. ..


No, I'm quite familiar term, it's you're flawed attempt to classify it as a right in and of itself that is incorrect. It's a nebulous concept that has really only been given strict definition for judicial application in Canada.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 453):
Try the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union


Doesn't define 'Human Dignity' and structures it such that it's resultant of the enumerated rights of individuals being recognized and protected.



[Edited 2015-04-08 00:18:59]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 451):
However, a huge and vast majority of Americans DO agree with the free market and that Christianity and free speech are NOT under attack

I don't know that I agree with the second part of your statement; over the past several years - and certainly the past few weeks - it seems that anyone who identifies themselves as "religious" or "Christian" to any extent are automatically dismissed as being hateful, bigoted, backwards, etc.

And I definitely know I don't agree with the last part of your statement, as I certainly believe this infringes upon First Amendment rights. But again, we'll agree to disagree.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 455):
it seems that anyone who identifies themselves as "religious" or "Christian" to any extent are automatically dismissed as being hateful, bigoted, backwards, etc.

And anyone who proudly says their black is seen as inferior, and anyone who says they're gay is seen as a queen, and anyone who says they're Hispanic is seen as illegal immigrant. Bottom line, there's always gonna be some faction that will cause the entire class to be perceived as a thing they're not. The question is whether they embrace it or not.

Muslims in the US, for example, have made strides to distinguish themselves from the radicals in the Middle East. Gays have tried to state the case that, aside from whom they're attracted to, they're normal people. Most religious people however seem to embrace the extremists or at the very least tolerate them by remaining silent. Where are the statements condemning Pat Robertson or others like him when they say stuff that doesn't represent their values?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1886
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 456):
And anyone who proudly says their black is seen as inferior, and anyone who says they're gay is seen as a queen, and anyone who says they're Hispanic is seen as illegal immigrant. Bottom line, there's always gonna be some faction that will cause the entire class to be perceived as a thing they're not. The question is whether they embrace it or not.

So ignorance is okay as long as the oppressed/insulted embrace it?
 
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seb146
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 455):
it seems that anyone who identifies themselves as "religious" or "Christian" to any extent are automatically dismissed as being hateful, bigoted, backwards, etc.

There is a world of difference between "I am a Christian" and "I am a Christian, therefore, you deserve fewer rights that I have."

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 455):
And I definitely know I don't agree with the last part of your statement, as I certainly believe this infringes upon First Amendment rights.

You are going to have to explain how religion is not under attack in this country. That was the point I made. The evangelical right feels Christianity is under attack because LGBT are trying to gain equal rights.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 452):
it closed because the owners felt that their safety was compromised due to arson and death threats, neither of which have anything whatsoever to do with "free market forces".

So, they could have stayed open. But, because some crack pot a thousand miles away made a threat... People need to put things in perspective.

Again, I was distinguishing between the nut jobs and the actual free speech people.

So, according to you, all people against gay marriage (recall the actual definition and not the evangelical right wing definition) think gays need to be shot on sight. It must be true because one guy is working on making that law. One guy speaks for all, according to you.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 457):
So ignorance is okay as long as the oppressed/insulted embrace it?

You're missing the point.

I can tell you without hesitation that the first thing most people think when someone talks about gays is either sex, pedophile, drag queens, or party animal in barely any clothing. While some of these people are gay (barring the pedophiles which makes no sense...), they don't represent me or my lifestyle. I embrace being gay. I went to my first pride parade last year and will no doubt do it again this year, but I strive to represent the other side: you know? regular folks leading an ordinary life.

If you read the example I posted about Western Muslims, they embrace their religion, but are eager to place distance between themselves and those who make them look bad.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 459):
You're missing the point.

Seems like your trying to say that Christians should embrace people ascribing them beliefs and making generalized assumptions.
 
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seb146
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 460):
Seems like your trying to say that Christians should embrace people ascribing them beliefs and making generalized assumptions.

You missed:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 459):
regular folks leading an ordinary life.

If you read the example I posted about Western Muslims, they embrace their religion, but are eager to place distance between themselves and those who make them look bad.

The point (and we can not stress this enough) is LGBT are asking for equal rights. LGBT are not demanding churches be shut down or this to become an atheist nation. All the LGBT community are asking for is equal rights.

*SOME* whites still resent the fact that blacks get to vote. *SOME* men still resent the fact that women demand equal pay. Tough. Equality. Not special rights, equal rights.

This has zero to do with religion for a majority of people. But, since the evangelical right wing political groups feel they are the victims, that is what it is about. Not about equality for all, but Christians being attacked and hated.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1886
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 461):
You missed:

I didn't miss anything. Einsteinboricua in post 456 claims that it is okay to be ignorant because some portion of the population is always oppressed/insulted/misrepresented.

He also claims that religious folks embrace extremists, which is a stretch at best.
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 462):
Einsteinboricua in post 456 claims that it is okay to be ignorant

Nowhere in post 456 is the word "ignorant" used.

I think what is trying to be said is that the most extreme caricatures are shown by the opposition and those are used as reasons those people should not have equal rights.

Not all gays are screaming, limp wristed queens flouncing about in sequin jock straps.
Not all blacks are criminals.
Not all Muslims are terrorists.
Not all Christians are close minded.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 462):
religious folks embrace extremists,

By staying silent, they do. According to the right wing and main stream media, every single Muslim MUST disavow every act of terror done in the name of Islam, otherwise, by their silence, they support terror and terrorists.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1886
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 463):
Nowhere in post 456 is the word "ignorant" used.

It is certainly implied.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 463):
I think what is trying to be said is that the most extreme caricatures are shown by the opposition and those are used as reasons those people should not have equal rights.

Happening on both sides.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 463):
By staying silent, they do. According to the right wing and main stream media, every single Muslim MUST disavow every act of terror done in the name of Islam, otherwise, by their silence, they support terror and terrorists.

How close minded of you...
 
Kekka
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:26 pm

I can't believe this thread is still going..
 
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casinterest
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting Kekka (Reply 465):
I can't believe this thread is still going..

I don't think it is a thread anymore. Just a lot of noise about my post your post. Mods should probably close it or at least open a new one as it has gotten really long.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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seb146
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 466):
I don't think it is a thread anymore. Just a lot of noise about my post your post.

That usually takes about 10 posts to get that going

Quoting casinterest (Reply 466):
Mods should probably close it or at least open a new one as it has gotten really long.

Seconded
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 447):
"Free market forces" do not include things like harassment, arson threats and death threats, which were all experienced by the family who owned memories pizza.

Those are not free market forces. They are mafia tactics.

NOT condoning these threats, and of course I haven't seen these threats, but come on, it's probably the normal amount of trolling anyone infamous for a couple of days gets. I think it's pretty dishonest to say that "the militant left/gays/whatever" are being violent and threatening, it's probably just reddit, 4chan, and the usual trolls

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 448):
The Civil rights Act and the civil war occurred as a result of STATE SANCTIONED racism. The civil rights act and the civil war were course corrections to the STATE SANCTIONED racism.

There was plenty of freedom for individuals/businesses to be racist without the state's help. It wasn't all state sanctioned. Why does that matter anyway? It would be unacceptable for white businesses to refuse to cater to black weddings, I doubt anyone would argue that being ok (unless they're trying to be consistent with the recent gay wedding controversies.) When we change it to gays, why the sudden shift?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 466):
as it has gotten really long.

Wow, it sure has, where ya at mods?  
 
tommy1808
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 454):
And for that matter, "human dignity" is not a specified, defined or enumerated right in either the European Convention on Human Rights or the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights or the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. Additionally, "human dignity"

Well, since human dignity being untouchable is directly applicable law and ofter given as the reason for a constitutional courts/European Human Rights Court decision it is save to assume that you are not understanding either pieces of legal text.
That there is no precise definition of human dignity is the strong point as a human right, it covers the unforeseeable. That privacy laws in Europe a fairly strict, while practically non-existent in the US is a requirement straight from human dignity. See the German census ruling from 1983: https://freiheitsfoo.de/census-act/
*Bang* the right to informational self-determination emerged, a new human right w/o legislators ever needing to get their butts up and come around to implementing it.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 454):
(however you choose to define it) hasn't been denied in the US, it's de jure granted via the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Just because you have actually codified some manifestations of human dignity into law doesn´t mean that there aren´t more that your country just happens to deny you so far.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 454):
Sure they do, you're just imposing a double-standard of religious-based discrimination being more tolerable than discrimination by other individuals.

one is private, one is public. Stores are public.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 454):
Doesn't define 'Human Dignity' and structures it such that it's resultant of the enumerated rights of individuals being recognized and protected.

Yet in the real world it does as directly applicable law. Weird how that works.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
BestWestern
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:54 pm

It now seems that the GOP sees connections between the campaign against this law and gun control.

“We saw Hollywood liberals and editorial columnists form a new unholy alliance with some of the biggest corporations in our country,”

Bobby Jindal said, categorizing opposition to the acts as an affront on free speech.

“They came together to bully the elected representatives of the people … My friends, if these large forces conspire to crush the First Amendment, it won’t be long before they join forces again to come after the Second Amendment.”


And this person wants to be president....
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 470):
And this person wants to be president....

Forget being president. This is the person who after the 2012 elections said the GOP needs to stop being the party of stupid.

Reference for the non-believers.

Of course, after the 2014 elections, the GOP has incentive to keep doing what they're doing. They won once, why rock the boat?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Indiana Gov. Signs "Religious Freedom Law"

Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 470):
Bobby Jindal said

Ugh say no more. This guy is an absolute joke. It's like he wants to be as bad as Ted Cruz but doesn't know how to so he tries to awkwardly imitate him. Seriously, everything he says seems like he's trying way too hard to sound like a hardcore TPer
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