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flanker
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Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:09 am

Christians singled out in the attack. Go figure. What else is new?

http://news.sky.com/story/1457254/mi...ll-147-in-kenyan-university-attack

"An attack by masked terrorists who stormed a university in eastern Kenya has left at least 147 people dead.

Around 80 more have been confirmed as wounded in the siege at Garissa University, which has now ended after the four attackers detonated their suicide vests.

The gunmen hurled grenades and fired automatic rifles as students were sleeping, shooting dead dozens before setting Muslims free and holding Christians and others hostage."
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting Flanker (Thread starter):
The gunmen hurled grenades and fired automatic rifles as students were sleeping, shooting dead dozens before setting Muslims free and holding Christians and others hostage."

Wonder how many Muslims died between the killing extravaganza and setting the surviving Muslims free. Islamists baffle me all the time but sometimes they go above and beyond...
 
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:12 am

If I were Kenya, I world just start deporting Somalis and close the border. Kenya welcomed them in on a humanitarian basis and they have gotten nothing but trouble in exchange for their hospitality. If some members of Somali community wish to go slaughter people en masse, they can do it in Mogadishu....

[Edited 2015-04-02 22:08:24]
 
Airstud
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:24 am

Ummm... not all Somali refugees are militants, right?

Some of them are peaceful folks who deserve not to be slaughtered on either nation's soil, eh?
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pvjin
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:03 am

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 2):

Indeed. I think refugees should always respect their host country's hospitality and strongly fight against extremism among their community. A significant amount of Somali refugees / their children have left to fight for Al Shabaab / ISIS from Finland, if we can't make them integrate with all the money we put into the matter no wonder why Kenya is having problems.

After Somali government collapsed in the 90's an entire generation of young men and women has lived under a form of anarchy, without any form of education in a society where most people are deeply religious. Obviously this is going to cause issues when these people arrive to any properly organized and civilized society. Some manage to overcome the barriers and integrate well, others don't. The latter should leave.
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daedaeg
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 2):
If I were Kenya, I world just start deporting Somalis and close the border. Kenya welcomed them in on a humanitarian basis and they have gotten nothing but trouble in exchange for their hospitality. If some members of Somali community wish to go slaughter people en masse, they can do it in Mogadishu....

I don't think it's so much the refugee camps that's causing havoc. It's the porous border and the lack of security forces in Kenya to respond to threats. Kenya police are poorly paid. As result there isn't enough security forces to protect the border or terrorist threats. So even if there were no refugees the problem would still remain. They'll just simply cross the border as they have already been doing.
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Pyrex
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:21 pm

Move along people, nothing to see here, just another example of the religion of peace hard at work.
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mham001
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:52 pm

The mass slaughter of Christians is barely even making headlines anymore.
 
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 4):
After Somali government collapsed in the 90's an entire generation of young men and women has lived under a form of anarchy, without any form of education in a society where most people are deeply religious. Obviously this is going to cause issues when these people arrive to any properly organized and civilized society.

It does seem most of the Somalis who do emigrate to a different country don't acclimate well to western culture. In my few visits to Minneapolis area, I find the Somali community keeps to themselves. This is noticeable, for instance, with Somali-specific athletic leagues where the Somali youth participate amongst one another. While this does contribute positively to the community, are the Somalis afraid of losing their identity if these same Somali youth joined a non-denominational athletic youth league? This should be an exercise in understanding both cultures - the western perspective understanding Somali-Islamic customs, and the reverse.

You would think the Somali youth would be more adopting of Western culture, but then you have the select few ones leaving Minneapolis to go fight for ISIS/Al-Shabaab.
 
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:06 pm

I just attended a joint Catholic and Muslim ceremony for kids which is in an anti-drug program run by the police. This is my second time. The groups sit by school, they all get diplomas by school. There is no mingling, no interaction at all. It is strange to me. We all applaud each student, but that is it. They do go up and get refreshments at the same time, still I have not seen one word exchanged. I do find it strange, the headscarves and the girls all wear dark clothing. All the girls wear pants. It is definitely two separate societies. It seems like a good idea, but what it accomplish's escapes me from what I have seen.
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DDR
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:07 pm

I think it's sad that 147 people get killed in Africa and there are exactly 9 posts discussing the event.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 10):
think it's sad that 147 people get killed in Africa and there are exactly 9 posts discussing the event.

I find it hard to discuss this rationally myself. You feel shocked, helpless, and then outrage. What can you really say? Our minds cannot conceive such barbarity. One has only to go back in hIstory to realize it has not, and will not ever stop. This co-mingling of so many ethnic and religious groups has only made it worse in my opinion. The melting pot is not working too well.

[Edited 2015-04-03 16:18:51]
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 10):
I think it's sad that 147 people get killed in Africa and there are exactly 9 posts discussing the event.

It's Africa - nobody cares.
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bennett123
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:27 pm

Is it just me.

The reaction of the Kenyan police/army seems somwhat limited.

Just like Westgate.
 
flanker
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 10):
I think it's sad that 147 people get killed in Africa and there are exactly 9 posts discussing the event.

People are too busy caring about gays and bakeries. I know, the world is upside down.
 
777way
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:50 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 10):

Was the same when 132 school children were killed in Pakistan last year, just about similar number of posts.
 
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:30 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
It's Africa - nobody cares.

A sentiment brought to light in the '70s-'90s

But hell, nowadays a bunch of White American kindergarteners can be aerated in their classroom in the middle of the afternoon....

....and nobody cares (enough to do anything of consequence about it).
I never thought I'd see that level of Western apathy. But there ya have it.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:16 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 13):
The reaction of the Kenyan police/army seems somwhat limited.

The Kenyan Government has this morning admitted they don't have enough police to deal with this, and have urgently put out the call for 10,000 more recuites to join the police force.

Good luck with that......

I doubt that many countries have the ability, and resources, let alone police to deal with something of this magnitude, especially any of the small nations of Africa, except maybe Sth Africa. And even they would be stretched.

It was a shocking thing to happen, terrible.

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Aesma
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:04 am

I'm not sure a lack of police is to blame, the attack is similar to Chechen terrorism for example, and I didn't hear Russia lacked policemen. Well, in those cases the police killed most hostages...

An interesting article about what the West is trying to do in Somalia : http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e4-b3f2-607bd612aeac_story.html

I notice it looks much like what France tries to do elsewhere in Africa, always involve Africans in the fight, instead of landing a western army and watch it all go to hell.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 8):

I live in Minneapolis, and while I see Somalis/East Africans mostly keep to themselves, they do interact with people of different backgrounds. If they need help/assistance they aren't afraid to ask a white person (like myself). And it keeps me hopeful seeing Somalis interact with other people. The Twin Cities has certainly faced challenges with an influx of Somali refugees, but we have made progress.
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WestJet747
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 2):
If I were Kenya, I world just start deporting Somalis and close the border. Kenya welcomed them in on a humanitarian basis and they have gotten nothing but trouble in exchange for their hospitality. If some members of Somali community wish to go slaughter people en masse, they can do it in Mogadishu....

Can you be certain that this wouldn't have happened anyway? Al-Shabaab's hatred isn't going to be stamped out by deporting a huge segment of the population in border provinces and upping security at rather expansive borders. Whether there are Somali's in Garissa or not, Al Shabaab both hates Christians and believes that the province in question should belong to Somalia. I don't think expulsion would have changed a thing.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
The mass slaughter of Christians is barely even making headlines anymore.

I haven't been able to go 30 minutes without hearing updates on the massacre on global news broadcasts (such as BBC World Service) since it happened. "Garissa" is still trending on Facebook and Twitter.

I'm not sure what news you watch...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
I'm not sure a lack of police is to blame

It's being reported that there were only two guards, and they were both at the front gate. Both were easily dispatched when the terrorists arrived.

I'd say that's a severe lack of police before even considering that they had warning of an attack.

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 19):
I live in Minneapolis, and while I see Somalis/East Africans mostly keep to themselves, they do interact with people of different backgrounds. If they need help/assistance they aren't afraid to ask a white person (like myself). And it keeps me hopeful seeing Somalis interact with other people. The Twin Cities has certainly faced challenges with an influx of Somali refugees, but we have made progress.

I went to a high school that catered to all the ESL (English as a Second Language) students in the region, and as such, we had a large array of students from all over the world...so much so that white Canadians were actually in the minority! We had a small group of Somalis that weren't great integrating, but they weren't lost causes either. Many of them had seen things that I couldn't imagine.

The biggest issue with their integration was the lack of guidance and support. The first thing they do when they come over is look to see where they can fit into society, and for many of them unfortunately the first successful black people they see are the rappers who rap about things that aren't conducive to a peaceful society (to say the least). These young Somalis then copy their wardrobe, language and mentalities because they think it leads to wealth and acceptance, which of course it doesn't.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):
I'd say that's a severe lack of police before even considering that they had warning of an attack.

Well I went to several universities that had no security at all, it's relative I guess.
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mham001
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):
I haven't been able to go 30 minutes without hearing updates on the massacre on global news broadcasts (such as BBC World Service) since it happened. "Garissa" is still trending on Facebook and Twitter.

I made that statement based on the complete lack of interest here and that the headline on Google News was slipping down the line the day after it happened. This, combined with the ambivalence when hundreds of non-muslim girls are kidnapped, leads me to believe that we are becoming accepting of the mass slaughter of Christians.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):
I went to a high school that catered to all the ESL (English as a Second Language) students in the region, and as such, we had a large array of students from all over the world...so much so that white Canadians were actually in the minority!

*gasp* - a white minority - OMG!!!. /sarcasm.

crap, I've lived most of my life in the US as a white minority, but I'm sure Canadians will continue to tell US how our race relations should work....
 
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):
*gasp* - a white minority - OMG!!!. /sarcasm.

crap, I've lived most of my life in the US as a white minority, but I'm sure Canadians will continue to tell US how our race relations should work....

Ah yes...in my break from A-net I had almost forgotten about Non-Av's resident Canada-hater! It's good to hear you're still a man of your convictions, mham001.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Well I went to several universities that had no security at all, it's relative I guess.

Where abouts would that be? I've never heard of a university that doesn't have any security.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting WestJet747,rep,y=23:
Where abouts would that be? I've never heard of a university that doesn't have any security.

That would be most of europe.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23):
Where abouts would that be? I've never heard of a university that doesn't have any security.

HA!

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 24):
That would be most of europe.

And most other places around the world that i have been to.
 
bennett123
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:35 pm

Thinking back to the 80 ies.

We had Porter's, who more or less handled security.

But security with guns, no way.
 
mham001
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:51 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 24):
That would be most of europe.

That's right. Because there is no crime in Europe. Anywhere.

The scope of the term 'university' can mean many things. Many campuses are not large enough to warrant a separate security force, but all universities would indeed have 'security' through the local police.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:14 pm

The state university here recently began training their police department in the carrying of weapons after many years without them. I believe a case of students playing a game on campus caused this action. They realized how long it took for armed police to arrive on campus. I certainly support armed campus police.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):

I'm not sure a lack of police is to blame, the attack is similar to Chechen terrorism for example, and I didn't hear Russia lacked policemen.

Well Im only repeating what the Kenyan Gov came out and said, they should have a fair idea whether they have enough police or not.

And Russia has a population of 144 million compared to Kenyan's population of 43 million, so I'd guess that Russia has many many more police than Kenya enjoys.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 26):
But security with guns, no way.

Yes I agree. we are lucky enough to both live in countries where there is a different mentality to gun culture and people having to be armed everywhere.
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WestJet747
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 24):
That would be most of europe.

So who keeps an eye on things at night?
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
So who keeps an eye on things at night?

I presume its the same as in Australia.....

The police, and maybe some private security companies on contract, but these people are usually not armed.
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WarRI1
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:56 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
Yes I agree. we are lucky enough to both live in countries where there is a different mentality to gun culture and people having to be armed everywhere.

I hope that ideal remains possible, but I am not a terrorist so I wish you well in that endeavor. I do not think they in the terrorist world wish you peace and tranquility, and there lies a problem.

[Edited 2015-04-04 16:57:57]
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mham001
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
Yes I agree. we are lucky enough to both live in countries where there is a different mentality to gun culture and people having to be armed everywhere.

I saw more, bigger, badder weapons on the streets of Europe in the '80's than I have ever seen in the US. Submachine guns and shotguns in the hands of polizei or Carabinieri and armored car guards was a common sight. I'm not understanding this myth about unarmed police in Europe.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:22 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
Yes I agree. we are lucky enough to both live in countries where there is a different mentality to gun culture and people having to be armed everywhere.

I saw more, bigger, badder weapons on the streets of Europe in the '80's than I have ever seen in the US. Submachine guns and shotguns in the hands of polizei or Carabinieri and armored car guards was a common sight. I'm not understanding this myth about unarmed police in Europe.

I am glad you point that out, I remember that also in London, automatic weapons on the street. I have only seen that in person here once or twice, Swat teams, not normal police patrols like in London.
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YVRLTN
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
I saw more, bigger, badder weapons on the streets of Europe in the '80's than I have ever seen in the US. Submachine guns and shotguns in the hands of polizei or Carabinieri and armored car guards was a common sight. I'm not understanding this myth about unarmed police in Europe.

Where in Europe? Im going to say Germany and Italy from your two references to the police. Neo-Nazis, Communists and the Berlin Wall and Mafia are likely explanations. Neither of which you have in the USA. And that was 30 years ago.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
I am glad you point that out, I remember that also in London, automatic weapons on the street. I have only seen that in person here once or twice, Swat teams, not normal police patrols like in London.

Also 30 years ago? That would be due to the IRA - yes, an active terrorist organization at the time. Which you do not have in the USA, nor in the UK anymore.

As to the issue at hand, the problem is going to take generations to fix. To have anarchy and such a void filled by warlords and extremists for so long there is no easy or fast fix.

Kenya will have to close its borders and short of a great Wall of China that is easier said than done. Whatever they do, when theres a will theres a way and these monsters will find ways to circumvent whatever measures are put in place. I do think the international community needs to wake up and provide some sort of assistance though, and not just throwing money at them as that is proven to be misguided. Drones, intel, weapons, equipment & training.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
It's Africa - nobody cares

People dont give a crap about Africa and thats why there is no international help. Yes, many countries have created their own problems, but they seem to be regarded as lower class of life. When a LAM pilot commits suicide by crashing his airliner we get one thread 143 posts long. When an identical thing happens to a German aircraft in France, we are now on thread 15 with many sub threads and the whole world is mandating two person cockpit rules, talking about cockpit doors, pilot psychology and whatever else. If this had been done after the LAM accident and applied universally, would there have been a 4U accident?? Maybe OT, but its the root of the same issue why Kenya continues to have these tragedies happen at the hands of terrorists, because the international community or western interests are not affected, so they dont act.

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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 35):
Also 30 years ago? That would be due to the IRA - yes, an active terrorist organization at the time. Which you do not have in the USA, nor in the UK anymore.

In 2007, in london, near the Parliment Building and the government buildings. We saw this more than once. I was surprised, I am not sure, but I think it was not long after the subway bombing. After staying overnight next to Heathrow, I believe an unarmed Policewoman was stabbed to death at the hotel next door. The weapon of choice for murder as I understand it in GB. We have guns, so that is the weapon of choice here. Stabbed or shot, really no difference when dying. I see the bombing was in 2005.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 24):
That would be most of europe.

  

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
That's right. Because there is no crime in Europe. Anywhere.

And yet most of us survive our whole lives without ever coming face to face with a gun. Strange.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
I saw more, bigger, badder weapons on the streets of Europe in the '80's than I have ever seen in the US. Submachine guns and shotguns in the hands of polizei or Carabinieri and armored car guards was a common sight. I'm not understanding this myth about unarmed police in Europe.

The average policeman on the street in most European countries will have a sidearm. But certainly not in the UK where a policeman carrying a gun is still the exception and not the rule.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
In 2007, in london, near the Parliment Building and the government buildings.

Yes, of course you would. High-value targets like government building and airports will have openly-armed police protecting them. Other than that, the average British police office is not routinely armed.
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Aesma
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
I saw more, bigger, badder weapons on the streets of Europe in the '80's than I have ever seen in the US. Submachine guns and shotguns in the hands of polizei or Carabinieri and armored car guards was a common sight. I'm not understanding this myth about unarmed police in Europe.

That idea comes from the UK where most police don't have guns. It's not the same on the continent. In France it's mostly sidearms though, otherwise you'll see soldiers with their rifles, in Paris at the moment that's the case.

Then there is the way police forces are made up, in France we have the real police (national police and military gendarmerie) and then the local police. The local police is formed by some cities as an initiative, it's not mandatory, and often will not carry guns. They have pretty much no power, they can't arrest someone or even ask for their ID, for any real policing they have to call the real cops. In a misguided attempt to placate scared people, some cities are giving them guns, seeing these poorly trained rent-a-cops with firearms scares me, personally.

In the case of my local university (UVSQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versail...int-Quentin-en-Yvelines_University ), it's quite big with 19000 students, but that's over 8 separate campuses. The campus near where I live is in the middle of the city, if anything happened you'd call the real police and they should be there pretty quickly. The lone security guard will probably hide in a closet.
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RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
Yes, of course you would. High-value targets like government building and airports will have openly-armed police protecting them. Other than that, the average British police office is not routinely armed.

At the time, they were busy digging in vehicle barricades in the area also. I must say, it is not common here to see automatic weapons, not in plain sight anyway.
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MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Militants Kill 147 + In Kenyan University Attack

Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
Quoting petertenthije (Reply 24):
That would be most of europe.

So who keeps an eye on things at night?

Often nobody at all.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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