This months marks the one hundredth anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, when the Turks (TYT) killed over 1.5 million Armenians in cold blood. This incident went unnoticed by the world, and even today, struggles to get any recognition (including Obama). Armenians hope that this being the 100th anniversary will help the movement gain traction, and many also hope that Turkey will pay reparations and return land that was once of the Armenians.

I have ten bucks that says the Turks won't have a memorial service.


Needless to say I wouldn't expect a check anytime soon.

Quoting runningonempty (Thread starter): This incident went unnoticed by the world,

But not in LAX... good lord, they won't pipe down about it here.  

Quoting runningonempty (Thread starter): and many also hope that Turkey will pay reparations and return land that was once of the Armenians.

After a century? Two words: fat and chance.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2): But not in LAX... good lord, they won't pipe down about it here.

There is a Billboard on I-96 (westbound) in Detroit about it. I would bet that is the first thing the average Detroiter ever saw about it. The topic isn't well known in the US. The only reason I even know about it is from reading books about WWI.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 2): But not in LAX... good lord, they won't pipe down about it here.

Yes, in Glendale there is a large Armenian population, so that is to be expected!

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3): After a century? Two words: fat and chance.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1): I have ten bucks that says the Turks won't have a memorial service.

I'll bet all the money I have that they won't be doing such a thing either!

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3): After a century? Two words: fat and chance.

And honestly, that's just the way it is. The only thing I personally could see important is that world powers recognize this atrocity as a genocide. Unfortunately, Obama had very different ambitions campaign time (2008). As to be expected, quite honestly, as the presidents before him never recognized it either.

I would like to see the US recognize it because I know so many people who lost relatives in the Genocide, and I have spoken to a Genocide survivor, for them to say it never happened, has been a quite a blow to all of us...

Quoting runningonempty (Thread starter): and many also hope that Turkey will pay reparations

Hope is a funny thing...

How do these Armenians believe they will convince millions of Turks to pay reparations to the great-granchidlren of victims for something their great-grandfathers did?

If you want a preview as to how well that will go, just look at how that's going for the new Greek government who are demanding that Germany pay reparations for the Nazi occupation.

Well at least Germany doesn't deny what it has done.

Turkey denies the genocide, going as far as insulting foreign leaders that recognize it, causing numerous diplomatic clashes.

Why can't the Turks just acknowledge it and blame it on the Ottomans and move on.

In the US, all attention to Armenia goes to the Kardashians, praise be to the Baby Jesus they survived.

I doubt Turkish government will acknowledge the genocide any time soon, they are too busy convicting people for insulting Erdogan.

Personally I vote with my wallet, I rather give my hard earned money to democratic Greek government than the totalitarian one a bit further east when I go have a holiday in summer. Hopefully many other Europeans will wake up and do the same when Turkey continues becoming less democratic.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3): The topic isn't well known in the US. The only reason I even know about it is from reading books about WWI.

Kind of a shame, because if I recall correctly, it was Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, who was one of the first outsiders to publicize what was happening.

Quoting runningonempty (Thread starter): and return land that was once of the Armenians.

 

What land would that be?

There was a Armenian Oblast but that was part of the Russian Empire.

Armenians (like Greeks) were integrated all over the Ottoman Empire from the Balkans, to Constantinople, to Central Asia minor, to areas today in Syria.
There was never an Armenian state of province inside the Ottoman Empire. Yes there were provinces that had large number of Armenians, but there is no such thing as "Armenian land."

Quoting victrola (Reply 7): Why can't the Turks just acknowledge it and blame it on the Ottomans and move on.

Seems like they are quite open to accepting blame if there is any.... Here is story for January.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that Turkey was ready to "pay the price" for mass killings of Armenians that began in 1915 — if, and only if, an “impartial board of historians” agree the dying Ottoman Empire was truly guilty of the crime.

“If the results actually reveal that we have committed a crime, if we have a price to pay, then as Turkey we would assess it and take the required steps,” Erdogan told state-run TRT channel on Thursday, according to Agence French Presse.

“We are saying, ‘If you are sincere on this matter, then come, let’s leave this to historians, let historians study the issue, let’s open our archives,’” Erdogan continued. “We have opened our archive. We have revealed more than one million documents on this. If Armenia also has an archive, then they should open it too."

The Turkish government argues that the killings were a result of the widespread chaos of the end of the Ottoman era and that many Turks died too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-of-the-armenian-genocide-really/

Quoting pvjin (Reply 9): Personally I vote with my wallet, I rather give my hard earned money to democratic Greek government than the totalitarian one a bit further east when I go have a holiday in summer. Hopefully many other Europeans will wake up and do the same when Turkey continues becoming less democratic.

You might not like the outcome, but Turkey is incredibly democratic election system.

Mr. Erdogan and both as PM and now as President has continued to increase his election victories one after another in elections which outside observers have confirmed as open and fair.

Ultimately Erdogan serves the Turkish people and if they continue to elect him and his party in open elections I don't think as outsiders we can criticize them for using their electoral rights.

Also maybe since this is an aviation site, lets not forget Erdogan was the first Turkish leader in long period of revolving door elections that brought stability and incredible economic expansion to the nation over the last two decades.

In the mean time, I'll happily be one of the millions of visitors that continue to set arrival records in Turkey year after year. Incredible and diverse place to visit imo.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11): You might not like the outcome, but Turkey is incredibly democratic election system.

Their legal system sure isn't:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30603709

A country where insulting any politician is illegal is hardly a very democratic one.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12): A country where insulting any politician is illegal is hardly a very democratic one.

Do you consider France a democratic nation?

Until 2013 it was a criminal offence in France to insult the President with 1 year prison sentence.

Today revised libel and defamation laws carry a flat EUR45,000 fine for convictions for comments against appointed or elected officials, and yes there have been convictions.

So I don't think unsupported insults or making slanderous comments is something one has a right to do without potential reprisal. Just like one cant yell fire without some repercussions, one can't go around and talk garbage about someone without problems.
Its actually a tenant in French privacy law.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 13):

Such laws that place politicians over ordinary private indivoduals simply don't belong to any democratic state. The president should be protected under ordinary privacy laws like everyone else. Also, seems like the Turkish government is using that law to suppress legitimate criticism.

Given my ancestry, a few years ago I intended to travel to certain locations of interest to mark the centenary of the first holocaust (as well as that of Galipoli). Unfortunately as of a week ago Deir ez-Zor (a place of critical importance) is currently under siege from isis, so not a destination for me to visit anytime soon.  

Quoting runningonempty (Thread starter): many also hope that Turkey will pay reparations

That's the thing though, there really hasn't been much of an organised movement towards this. All the Armenian political movements regarding the genocide are in support of recognising the genocide, not asking for compensation. It is interesting the reaction that such movements. Turkey always kicks up a fuss one way or another and starts making threats saying that recognising the genocide would warrant economic and diplomatic consequences. Quite childish, really. Boeing went to great lobbying efforts to prevent the US Congress from passing an amendment acknowledging the genocide (for that reason, hell will freeze over before I call myself a Boeing fanboy). Says a lot about the company, really.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...rkey-armenia-idUSTRE62157G20100302

Quoting runningonempty (Thread starter): return land that was once of the Armenians.

Mt Ararat should certainly be Armenian. Unfortunately though, that ship sailed long ago.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11): Seems like they are quite open to accepting blame if there is any....

  

Quoting pvjin (Reply 9): Personally I vote with my wallet, I rather give my hard earned money to democratic Greek government than the totalitarian one a bit further east when I go have a holiday in summer. Hopefully many other Europeans will wake up and do the same when Turkey continues becoming less democratic.

   Indeed. Deny the genocide in Greece or Cyprus and you can be prosecuted. As it should be. It is interesting to see which countries go out of their way to acknowledge or deny the genocide and the reasons they cite for it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 6): Well at least Germany doesn't deny what it has done.

Exactly. Is quite a contrast in maturity between Germany and Turkey on the issue of acknowledgement. One acknowledged long ago that a genocide happened in their land, has apologised on multiple occasions and has a substantial memorial in its capital. The other refuses to acknowledge the genocide which happened in their land, threatens economic retaliation on countries that do acknowledge it, has closed its border with the neighbour whose ancestors were victims of the genocide and demolishes friendship statuse located nearby.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13199787

[Edited 2015-04-05 04:57:52]

Quoting runningonempty (Reply 4): Unfortunately, Obama had very different ambitions campaign time (2008).

What exactly does Obama have to do with this? Are you saying his campaign ambitions in 2008 should have included the Armenian genocide? I don´t get it. Or are you using the "Obama worst President...." line to get more attention to your thread.? Valid, if that´s the case, I just don´t see how Obama is responsible for this.

Try the bureaucrats in Brussels, in any case.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 15): Indeed. Deny the genocide in Greece or Cyprus and you can be prosecuted. As it should be.

Well, I mean, quite frankly, I'm not sure if I agree that this takes precedent of freedom of speech, however, I do agree that the intentions behind it are in the right place.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 15): The other refuses to acknowledge the genocide which happened in their land, threatens economic retaliation on countries that do acknowledge it, has closed its border with the neighbour whose ancestors were victims of the genocide and demolishes friendship statuse located nearby.

They're a bunch of cowards, and to this day, they can't even admit it...

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16): What exactly does Obama have to do with this? Are you saying his campaign ambitions in 2008 should have included the Armenian genocide? I don´t get it. Or are you using the "Obama worst President...." line to get more attention to your thread.? Valid, if that´s the case, I just don´t see how Obama is responsible for this.

Sir, I included Obama because he is the president of the US, the leader of the free world, and the fact that he doesn't have the guts (for lack of better terms...) to pass a resolution, bill, or something of that nature recognizing it is appalling. I understand completely why he wouldn't do it, but its just pitiable. And it's not just him, plenty of presidents have averted it as well. And also, AR, he publicized numerous times stating he would recognize it in 2008, so sir, Obama isn't my "talking point," he is a part of this today.

To further exemplify the lying cheat that is the president:

Quote: "My firmly held conviction (is) that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence," he said in a statement. "The facts are undeniable," Obama wrote. "As President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide."

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11): You might not like the outcome, but Turkey is incredibly democratic election system.

Sure thing....

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11): There was never an Armenian state of province inside the Ottoman Empire. Yes there were provinces that had large number of Armenians, but there is no such thing as "Armenian land."

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11): Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that Turkey was ready to "pay the price" for mass killings of Armenians that began in 1915 — if, and only if, an “impartial board of historians” agree the dying Ottoman Empire was truly guilty of the crime.

Ha! "impartial." Sure thing. What evidence are they looking for?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11): let’s open our archives,’”

Maybe I can help them:

WARNING: Thousands of bones: http://dryerreport.com/wordpress/wp-...014/04/Armenian-genocide-bones.jpg

Turkey is a "democracy" where Erdogan can decide on the fate of criminal investigations, threaten judges, etc. I dread the day my democracy looks like this.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 13): Until 2013 it was a criminal offence in France to insult the President with 1 year prison sentence.

The last four French presidents (I wasn't born before) have been insulted every day by thousands, often on prime time television (bebete show, guignols), who has ended up in prison over this ? The only case I know of someone seeing the inside of a court was under Sarkozy, when a guy threw a yogurt at his car, so not just something verbal. It would be quite ironic though for a president that didn't shy from insulting others to retaliate with a lawsuit when insulted.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 9): I doubt Turkish government will acknowledge the genocide any time soon, they are too busy convicting people for insulting Erdogan. Personally I vote with my wallet, I rather give my hard earned money to democratic Greek government than the totalitarian one a bit further east when I go have a holiday in summer. Hopefully many other Europeans will wake up and do the same when Turkey continues becoming less democratic.

I'll join you with that  

The Turks are extremely nationalistic and seem incapable to admit any wrongdoing. The Armenian genocide is a fact, and just as Germany has accepted and paid for their wrongdoings in the past, so should the Turks.

But I suppose you'd open a can of worms with that. After all, how far back in history can you go? The very existence of Turkey is due to central Asian tribes conquering Greek / Byzantine lands... So giving back land they stole from the Armenians might lead to (legitimate) Greek claims. History, it's a bitch  

Quoting runningonempty (Reply 17): Sir, I included Obama because he is the president of the US, the leader of the free world, and the fact that he doesn't have the guts (for lack of better terms...) to pass a resolution, bill, or something of that nature recognizing it is appalling.

He's not the leader of my free world, unless the US had anything to do with the genocide why should a US President comment on it at all.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20): He's not the leader of my free world, unless the US had anything to do with the genocide why should a US President comment on it at all.

Okay Kiwi, Whether you want to live in the free world or not, you should realize that the USA is a superpower, so that's the first thing to "deal with".


Secondly, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you're not from the US, but the US government has resolutions or bills for every genocide there has been (for the MOST part), so for the the government to blatantly ignore the Armenian Genocide is inappropriate and, honestly, dangerous.

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" -Adolf Hitler on inspiration for the holocaust

Quoting runningonempty (Reply 17): Well, I mean, quite frankly, I'm not sure if I agree that this takes precedent of freedom of speech, however, I do agree that the intentions behind it are in the right place.

Denying a genocide is hate speech, simple as that.

Quoting runningonempty (Reply 17): They're a bunch of cowards, and to this day, they can't even admit it...

   Revisionist history.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16): Are you saying his campaign ambitions in 2008 should have included the Armenian genocide?

In fairness to Obama, most senior US politicians in congress have also shown very little leadership on the issue. You know, making all the right noises while on campaign and then refusing to address the issue once they get elected/reelected....not that any of this justifies Mr Obama's inaction.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 21): for the the government to blatantly ignore the Armenian Genocide is inappropriate

  

there wasn't a genocide. it's all made up

Sorry for the thread bump but its nice to see this guy have the guts to call it like it is:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32272604

Finally a pope that says what others are afraid to.

The Kemalists denied the responsibility, since they were the government, which resulted from a revolution against the Ottoman Empire and therefore not responsible for the attrocities committed by the previous government, but Erdogan is dreaming of recreating the Ottoman empire, including ending the separation of religion and government, therefore the Ottoman empire can't have done anything wrong.

As for ideas about recreating the Armenian kingdom of maybe a thousand years ago, forget about it. It would encompass regions, which are today belong to Turkey (or Turkish Kurdistan), Iran, Iraq, Georgia and Azerbaijan. No way it would happen.

Jan

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 23): there wasn't a genocide. it's all made up

I sincerely hope this is a joke.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 24): Sorry for the thread bump but its nice to see this guy have the guts to call it like it is: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32272604

I concur 100%. His intentions were fully non-political, and all he said was true. Turkey pulling their ambassador is just a weakling move at this point.

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 26): therefore not responsible for the attrocities committed by the previous government

As nice as this all sounds, it's not an excuse to deny that these happenings occurred in their country's history. Land and monetary reparations would not be excused because of this either. You can argue the same with Germany. Nazism is gone, but Germany and its government makes strides to continue to recognize its history. Turkey doesn't even teach the genocide in their schools. It's an atrocity.

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 26): As for ideas about recreating the Armenian kingdom of maybe a thousand years ago, forget about it. It would encompass regions, which are today belong to Turkey (or Turkish Kurdistan), Iran, Iraq, Georgia and Azerbaijan. No way it would happen.

Well the land in the Mt. Ararat was majorly Armenian, and despite your pessimism (or realism) it's not impossible. Quite frankly, all it would take is good ol' US of A.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 24): Sorry for the thread bump but its nice to see this guy have the guts to call it like it is:

Its sad when acknowledging a historical fact has became political amongst some.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25): Finally a pope that says what others are afraid to.

Indeed. Kudos to Mr Pontif.

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 26):

Very good post.  

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 27): Quite frankly, all it would take is good ol' US of A.

?

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 27): Land and monetary reparations would not be excused because of this either.

As soon as Land and Monetary reparations get put on the table, Turkey's efforts to have the genocide forgotten will step up a gear.

I have been to Armenia (only Yeriwan airport for a day) and I know how close Mt. Ararat is to this place. In fact, it is dominating the western skyline.
But I have also been to Azerbaijan, and I know the history of the war of Nagorno Karabach, previously a majority Armenian (Christian) enclave in majority Muslim (Shiite, but due to 70 years of Soviet rule very secular) Azerbaijan and I know about the Muslims who were driven out by both separatists and regular Armenian forces from their homes in both Nagorno Karabach and several Azeri provinces between Nagorno Karabach and Armenia to create a land connection between Nagorno Karabach and Armenia (with Russian help).

In fact, Armenia has annexed about 25% of formerly Azeri territory.

As for persecution of Christians, Azerbaijan, being for the majority Shiite, is not supporting the Wahabi and Salafist crazies (they kill or imprison them if they become a threat). There are big Christian minorities in the country, of different denominations. In Baku it is not unusual to see a mosque right beside a church (usually a Russian orthodox one). The only Christian denomination not allowed is the armenian Orthodox church, but this only since the war.
There also exists a big Jewish community in Azerbaijan.

So historically the armenians are also not quite innocent.


Jan

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 29): In Baku it is not unusual to see a mosque right beside a church

where? There aren't very many mosques or chruch's in Baku, probably no more than 10 active ones, I've not noticed any of them right beside each other.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30): Quoting md11engineer (Reply 29): In Baku it is not unusual to see a mosque right beside a church where? There aren't very many mosques or chruch's in Baku, probably no more than 10 active ones, I've not noticed any of them right beside each other.

Granted, the people in Baku are not very religious, esp. in the inner city, but if you go to the more working class districts you'll meet quite a few more religious Muslims (e.g. around Ahmedli metro station, I took a wrong bus once and ended up in a working class district full of Soviet era apartment blocks).
There are a few conspicious mosques in the city, then some inactive, historical ones in the old part (Icherisheher), but it seems also some small inconspicious ones.

As for churches next door, Baku has a quite big Russian minority, who are often Orthodox Christians (though also quite secular ones). Ok, side by side might be exagerrated, but they definitely exist in the same neighbourhoods.

Generally the population is quite secular.


Jan

I'm really glad System of a Down is going over to Yerevan for the 100th anniversary. I'm expecting that show to be nuts.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1): I have ten bucks that says the Turks won't have a memorial service.

You don't need to place any money. They're pissed at Pope Francis's comments.

It's kinda weird that there's a youtube channel called TYT as well.....kinda eerie. Hope THEY, being a leftist-leaning channel, understand where that all comes from  

Good news from Europe!

Quote: The Austrian Parliament drafted a statement on April 21 condemning the Armenian Genocide and calling on Turkey to face its past. According to sources, all six factions of parliament came together and agreed on the statement, which will be presented to the public on April 22. The news comes a day after Germany announced its plan to “stand behind” a resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide, which will be voted on April 24.

http://armenianweekly.com/2015/04/21/austria-recognizes-ag/

Quote: Germany plans for the first time to officially recognize the killing of hundreds of thousands of Armenians by the Turkish regime 100 years ago as genocide. Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition will vote on April 24 to label the murders as genocide as defined by the United Nations in 1948. The lower house vote is on the same day as leaders meet in the Armenian capital of Yerevan to commemorate the massacre that began in April 1915.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...enian-massacre-in-1915-as-genocide

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16): Are you saying his campaign ambitions in 2008 should have included the Armenian genocide?

Just found this.

Quote: White House officials have decided that President Obama will not use the word “genocide” to describe the killings of more than 1 million Armenians at the hands of Ottoman Turks when he commemorates the deaths Friday, the 100th anniversary of the massacres. The decision, revealed Tuesday in a meeting with Armenian American groups, backs down from a previous Obama pledge. “As president I will recognize the Armenian Genocide,” Obama said while running for president in 2008.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...enian-genocide-20150421-story.html

What a fantastic leader.  

I wonder what he has extracted from Turkey in exchange for his cowardice.

Yerevan Genocide memorial




Los Angeles


Ottawa


Tehran




Beirut


Istanbul


Meanwhile, the lights of the Colosseum and the Eiffle Tower have been switched off.

[Edited 2015-04-24 20:17:13]