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scbriml
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 10:33 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 239):
1. There are far to many seats in Scotland

59 MPs for Scotland isn't that far off the voters/MP ratio in England.

Scotland - 4,094,784 registered voters, electing 59 MPs = 69,403 eligible voters per MP

England - 38,811,622 registered voters, electing 533 MPs = 72,817 eligible voters per MP

If you applied exactly the same ratio as in England, Scotland would have just three fewer MPs.

It's Wales that has 'far too many' MPs - just 57,000 voters per MP. Applying England's voters per MP ratio would result in 31 MPs instead of the current 40.



The above figures are taken from the BBC's Election website and is based on registered voters. Constituency boundaries are based on registered voters in the area.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

[Edited 2015-05-09 03:47:12]
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GDB
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting giancavia (Reply 248):
GDB after all of that the reality is they still have no power, They will not force anything. There will not be another independence attempt in the near future. They had their chance they got a no from their own people. They wiped out a pathetic labour party. The Scots will see what life is like under the SNP and no doubt when the next election comes along the hatred will be strong. Broken promises and a roar that resembles a meow. Salmond is good at running his mouth for entertainment but when it comes to actually leading what did he ever do? The Sturgeon is cut from the same cloth.

I agree that faced with greater responsibility and the less scope for blaming the English that more powers will give them may well expose the fundamental dishonesty of their whole platform, they were underestimated in the 2011 Scottish elections, most (including me) thought that in the Referendum they'd get 30-35% and suffer badly as a result of this. When polls showed in early September they might even win the panic from London was obvious and the three main party leaders had to respond. Problem is that while that won them the vote it tainted the Labour Party as 'Tory and Lib Dem stooges, hence the SNP surge afterwards.
Cameron played the 'fear the Scots' card to great effect this week but the price has been boosting the SNP, they do not operate in the same political enviorment as the rest of the UK hence them all too often wrong footing not just Labour.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 249):
Yes, that the UK is in desperate need of a fairer voting system. The FPTP system is better when there are only two main parties, but in the 21st century, it seems very unfair.

I'm certainly not a UKIP supporter, but how can it be right that the SNP gets 56 seats when polling less than 1.5 million votes while UKIP gets just one MP with nearly 4 million votes?

Well the SNP as I said operate in an almost hermetically sealed political world from the rest of the UK, something they've worked hard to create, so the comparisons with UKIP fighting nationally and the SNP just in Scotland is not really comparable. I was sad that the AV vote in 2011 was lost, it would have been a step in the right direction without the equal unfairness of full PR which would greatly magnify the influence of smaller parties beyond their actual popularity. I agree that the current system works well if we are in the 1950's and 60's when the majority of actual votes were for either Labour or Conservative. Though now the Lib Dems are back to that period in terms of MP's after this election.
 
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scbriml
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 251):
Well the SNP as I said operate in an almost hermetically sealed political world from the rest of the UK, something they've worked hard to create, so the comparisons with UKIP fighting nationally and the SNP just in Scotland is not really comparable.

Yes, I do appreciate that.

Does anyone know how many UKIP candidates stood for election?
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 252):
Does anyone know how many UKIP candidates stood for election?

I read it was around 430 candidates.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 249):
Quoting gkirk (Reply 238):
The Lion has roared!

From the opposition benches where they have exactly ZERO power.

This is the ironic part about the SNP landslide in Scotland taking all bar 3 seats. Since 1997 Scotland has wielded power at Westminster way beyond its size, Firstly Tony Blair as PM (yes he is from Scotland) then Gordon Brown. Lots of Scots occupying high offices of state such as Robin Cook, John Reid, Alastair Darling and Danny Alexander, and many others as either parliamentary aides or members of the opposition.

Despite this the SNP claimed that Scotland had been either forgotten or ignored at Westminster.

For the next 5 years Scotland will have either minimal or zero representation in both the Government and the opposition. The 56 member SNP awkward squad can shout as loud as they want, but it will only be the media that are listening.
 
GDB
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 1:31 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 253):
I read it was around 430 candidates.

But they threw most resources at a few, notably Thanet of course.

For amusement's sake here it is (at UK Elections the bigger 'character' a candidate is the more 'eccentric' others stand too it seems);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHzZlCKUtAg

(Al Murray mugging it for all it's worth! First saw him in his 'Pub Landlord' guise above a pub in London in the mid 1990's).

Same applied to the seat next to me, Uxbridge and Boris;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdfCTh9GM2w

Note the reference to my MP and their anti LHR stance, John McDonnell got a 59% vote share in Hayes and Harlington but every candidate shared his and Boris's opinion on this. I actually got an election flyer from him with pics of his previous LHR campaigns over the years, 'Terminate T5' included, which all failed bar one, the 3rd runway but that was a Tory/Lib Dem policy. John McDonnell voted against Blair and Brown numerous times. I am told that if you go to him with a problem he is a good MP. Him and Boris against LHR, a wealthy Tory and old style Labour left winger, strange bedfellows indeed.
 
David L
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 1:35 pm

I'm not so sure the SNP will be quite so powerless in Westminster. The one thing they can achieve is to drive a wedge further between between the Scots and the English. I have a bad feeling about this.
 
GDB
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 256):
I'm not so sure the SNP will be quite so powerless in Westminster. The one thing they can achieve is to drive a wedge further between between the Scots and the English. I have a bad feeling about this.

That's their plan as always, I hear negative comments about Scotland that just were not there 10 or 15 years ago, negative towards the SNP. The Tartan UKIP. One blames everything on the EU and foreigners in general the other on the English.
 
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scbriml
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 256):
The one thing they can achieve is to drive a wedge further between between the Scots and the English. I have a bad feeling about this.

Well, they've been doing that forever.

The reality is, they'll have no political power in Westminster - all they can do is verbally whinge and moan. Here's a great example - during the run-up to the referendum (and repeated in the run-up to this election), Sturgeon claimed that raising the UK retirement age is unfair on the Scots because they have a loweest life expectancy in the UK. She wanted Scots to have a lower retirement age than the rest of the UK. Aside from the obvious question of how this would be funded, it's a typical example of chip-on-the-shoulder-mentality leading to a tail wagging the dog situation - rather than fix the root causes of a lower life expectancy, just ask from more money from that evil, anti-Scottish London Parliament (oh, the irony). If the new Government did decide to raise the retirement age again, there's absolutely nothing the SNP could do about it.

I honestly believe Scotland is better of in the UK and that the UK is better off with Scotland in. They had their chance to become independent and less than 38% of those eligible to vote were in favour. I don't know when they think they'll get another referendum (does it not require the agreement of Parliament?) However, if they really want independence, I strongly believe they should be completely independent - no Sterling, no Queen, no UK defence, etc. Off you go and good luck negotiating your EU membership.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
David L
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 257):
That's their plan as always
Quoting scbriml (Reply 258):
Well, they've been doing that forever.

They've never had such an opportunity before. They're now the third largest party in Westminster, representing almost all of Scotland. They're perfectly placed to contrive and magnify divisions between the Scots and the English. It doesn't matter that they can't win any debates in the House.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 259):
They're perfectly placed to contrive and magnify divisions between the Scots and the English. It doesn't matter that they can't win any debates in the House.

As has been mentioned Salmond has been doing that for a lifetime and he lost his Independence vote. lol, He is all mouth and no substance. Sturgeon seems more witty but all she does is promise social subsidies to the people that she will never be able to afford. Thats why after a few years the Scots will see what a bunch of fakers the SNP are. Give it time, SNP will self defeat hard.
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 255):
But they threw most resources at a few, notably Thanet of course.

Every party does the same. Labour apparently had 500 people on the ground in Battersea on election day.

Quoting David L (Reply 256):
I'm not so sure the SNP will be quite so powerless in Westminster.

I actually think they will be for a number of reason but I'll only focus on the most basic. Any policy influence they want can only come with the support of a bigger party as by their very existence they can never gain more than 59 seats in the house. This didn't stop Sturgeon playing to her audience, telling them her piddling number of seats was going to set the tone in Westminster for Scotland's benefit (another whopper). With the Lib Dems in the political wilderness and a deal with the Tories not happening (although they had no problem being propped up by them for four years in a Holyrood minority) they are left with Labour. Did you see what happened the other night? Even with the denials of any future deals with the SNP (nonsense we know), the effect on Labour across England was poisonous and sent a pretty clear message, do not even THINK of aligning yourself with the nationalists if you want to gain office. Sturgeon will slowly come to realise that the lock to No.10 is on the inside of the door.

So Sturgeon has 56 toxic seats up for grabs. Any takers?
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
David L
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting giancavia (Reply 260):
As has been mentioned Salmond has been doing that for a lifetime and he lost his Independence vote.

And look what's happened to the SNP vote since then. The nationalist sentiment has not gone away - far from it.

Quoting giancavia (Reply 260):
Thats why after a few years the Scots will see what a bunch of fakers the SNP are. Give it time, SNP will self defeat hard.

They're in their second term in control of the Scottish parliament, this time with the first majority since it was created. The next Scottish elections will be telling.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 261):
Any policy influence they want can only come with the support of a bigger party as by their very existence they can never gain more than 59 seats in the house.

That's missing my point. As I stated, of course they can't win any debates in Westminster but if you think a party ostensibly representing the vast majority of Scotland being continually thwarted or being dismissed as insignificant by "the English" at Westminster will have zero effect on nationalist sentiment then I have to disagree. I think the UK government will have to tread carefully.
 
bmacleod
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 7:08 pm

Am I assuming right that members of the British monarchy like William and Kate are ineligible to vote?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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mariner
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 263):
Am I assuming right that members of the British monarchy like William and Kate are ineligible to vote?

They can vote, but they don't. The Queen can vote, but she chooses not to do so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/news/vote2001/..._system/newsid_1171000/1171908.stm

"It is commonly thought that members of the Royal family are not allowed to vote, but this is not true.

The Queen can vote, as can members of her family, but they do not do so because in practice it would be considered unconstitutional."


It's a fine line.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 262):
As I stated, of course they can't win any debates in Westminster but if you think a party ostensibly representing the vast majority of Scotland being continually thwarted or being dismissed as insignificant by "the English" at Westminster will have zero effect on nationalist sentiment then I have to disagree.

I'm not sure where you pulled the relation to what I wrote and having no effect on nationalistic sentiment from. It may well have an influence but that wasn't the point. Nationalism doesn't disguise the fact the SNP are a minority party in a HOC with a majority party (however slim) on the other side. There is no sound reason that because its MP's all hail from one part of the Union, this somehow requires treatment different from what previous third placed minority parties received. That it may anger certain citizens in Scotland (or spun that way) is neither here nor there and ignores the realities of FPTP government. If you disagree with that, you need to explain why.

As you raise the nationalistic sentiment and you're on the ground up there, could you tell us what would have a positive effect on it because I'm certain, given the wedge created by the SNP, nothing will. It seems no matter what's offered the net effect (if any) may be just a fraction less hatred due to their fellow citizens voting No yet, somehow, it's still our fault South of the border (and you can't have independence again, that ship sailed   )

Quoting David L (Reply 262):
I think the UK government will have to tread carefully.

And this right here is part of the problem. The UK government is Scotland's government, endorsed by its voters just last year. The overall debate is being framed as if Scotland is a seperate entity when compared to the rest of the UK. It's not.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
gkirk
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 249):
This would be the same London that Scotland takes more from than it contributes to and can't survive without?

The same Scotland that contributes more per head than elsewhere in the supposedly UK?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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scbriml
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 265):
The UK government is Scotland's government, endorsed by its voters just last year.

It's hilarious. All through the independence referendum debate, one of Queen Nicola's main arguments was "Nobody in Scotland votes Tory, but we end up with a Tory Government. It's not fair." Well tough shit, that's how the political system works in the UK. You get precisely one vote that goes towards electing precisely one MP. You have no say in what happens in the other 649 constituencies. I often get a Government I didn't vote for.

So, one of the main tenets of the SNP's election campaign was that the SNP would work with anyone else to get the Tories out of Government. Cue an election land-slide in Scotland and the Tories end up with a majority Government.   

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 265):
The overall debate is being framed as if Scotland is a seperate entity when compared to the rest of the UK. It's not.

Don't tell the SNP.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
gkirk
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sat May 09, 2015 11:33 pm

Anyhow, the election is done, the Tories have won, London will be richer whilst the rest of the UK will get poorer.

Next Labour leader?
Next Lib Dem Leader?
Who gives a toss about next UKIP leader
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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scbriml
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sun May 10, 2015 12:11 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 266):
The same Scotland that contributes more per head than elsewhere in the supposedly UK?

If you include declining oil revenue, yes. Even with oil revenue, Scotland's deficit for 2015 will be an estimated £7.6 billion. That is, you'll take £7.6 billion more from the "anti-Scottish London Government than you contribute." I don't think you can afford independence.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sun May 10, 2015 9:01 am

Ironically Salmond is already saying they will mess up westminster while Sturgeon is saying that they wont. A rift will open like I said. Salmond will try to hard to be the big boy rebel and will fall away with ridicule. Sturgeon on the other hand knows she lacks any real power and will fall in line. Next election comes along her voters will call her a Tory loving traitor etc etc. It is all so predictable lol.
 
David L
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sun May 10, 2015 10:17 am

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 265):
I'm not sure where you pulled the relation to what I wrote and having no effect on nationalistic sentiment from. It may well have an influence but that wasn't the point.

But you were responding to my point, which was about nationalistic sentiment.  
Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 265):
As you raise the nationalistic sentiment and you're on the ground up there, could you tell us what would have a positive effect on it because I'm certain, given the wedge created by the SNP, nothing will

My only point was that, despite what some of you seem to believe, the SNP are in a much stronger position to exacerbate and exploit any divisions than they were before this election.
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sun May 10, 2015 11:49 am

Quoting David L (Reply 271):
But you were responding to my point, which was about nationalistic sentiment.

Which you directly linked to how any perceived dismissive or disrespectful treatment in the house will be spun North of the border.

Quoting David L (Reply 271):
My only point was that, despite what some of you seem to believe, the SNP are in a much stronger position to exacerbate and exploit any divisions than they were before this election.

In Scotland, I wouldn't disagree. In England it's just the same old noise. Despite the seats the propaganda will remain the same as before, just that they will present it as mandate for their dishonesty.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sun May 10, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 266):
The same Scotland that contributes more per head than elsewhere in the supposedly UK?

The SNP claimed this on the back of oil at $120/barrel. At under $70 where it is now the deficit would be such to bankrupt Scotland in weeks.

Quoting David L (Reply 271):
My only point was that, despite what some of you seem to believe, the SNP are in a much stronger position to exacerbate and exploit any divisions than they were before this election.

The 56 SNP MP's can create a lot of noise, but they have no chance of influencing any laws. It is true that the Government majority is small at 12, but Sinn Fein have 4 MP's who will not swear the oath of alliegance. There's then the 8 DUP MP's who are more or less certain to either vote with the Govt or abstain.
 
gkirk
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Sun May 10, 2015 9:20 pm

So Londoners get richer, and the rest of the UK gets poorer?

Whilst I may be an SNP voter, that does not mean that I hate England, far from it. But whats the point in having a national government that only cares about London?

The UK is screwed
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ltbewr
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Mon May 11, 2015 3:57 am

So the SNP won all but 3 seats in Scotland, so what do they do with it ? Rebuild Hadrian's Wall ? Just harass the PM during Question Time ? Sue for peace so to speak with more concessions of greater autonomy ? Sadly some Scots want a redo of the wars that led to England taking them over, but this time winning. Perhaps the best deal they will get is like how Quebec as to Canada or the Basque region of Spain have been granted greater autonomy in allocations of tax monies and cultural rights within their regions.
 
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scbriml
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Mon May 11, 2015 7:07 am

I watched 'Queen Nicola of Scotland' on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday morning. Boy, she's pretty deluded.

Aside from claiming to be the main opposition to the Government, she also says that the Government MUST move beyond the cross-party Smith Commission's devolution agreement. She says that this will need further discussion with the Government. When asked who would be discussing it with the Government, she quickly pointed out that she was the leader of the SNP. Andrew Marr, bless him, didn't have the heart to point out to her that she isn't an MP and doesn't have any right to discuss anything with the Government.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
NAV30
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RE: The UK Election Thread

Mon May 11, 2015 10:25 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 274):
that does not mean that I hate England, far from it. But whats the point in having a national government that only cares about London?

Years back I worked on 'economic development' in places called 'development areas,' gkirk - which eventually became pretty well everywhere that wasn't in London! The government of the time played fair, as far as I can tell - government grants (up to 40% of cost) were provided for anyone prepared to risk building a factory in 'development areas' - meaning areas with high unemployment. They 'worked' up to a point - but the fact always remained that about a quarter of the UK's population lived in or close to London, and the 'London region' was therefore destined always to be the 'centre of gravity' of the national economy.

In my view it's unfair to blame the politicians for London's predominance. It's just a matter of a single 'city state' having the best part of a quarter of the national population - plus, most of the time, the most moderate weather!   That's not, in my view, the fault of the politicians or the civil servants - it's just, by and large, still the best part of the UK to live in?

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