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photopilot
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Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:06 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...-11e4-81ea-0649268f729e_story.html

Well it's about bloody time that the USA removes Cuba from a list that they should never have been on in the first place. It's time for the old cold-war relics to let things normalize.

Now the next step will be to formalize and open embassies in each other's countries, then drop the US's economic embargo of Cuba.

Anybody else here been to Cuba and seen for themselves what their country is all about?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/Steve_YYZ/2008_Trip/Nacional_Flag-1.jpg
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:15 am

Thanks Obama, when anyone thinks of a terrorist, who doesn't think of a Cuban?  

Good news. I've heard the arguments for keeping them on the list and even if I accept them (I don't, I think they fall laughably short) why aren't dozens of other countries not on it?

Watch out Cuba. President Cruz or President Rubio is gonna put you back on the list!
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:58 am

There's so many things wrong with this it's just a laughable example of American Chutzpah to the extreme. I saw this and I thought several things:

1) I don't think the US has any moral authority to designate any nation a "Terrorist Sponsor" considering the US illegally invaded Iraq and probably killed 1 million civilians with DIRECT fire in the Vietnam war. If Sweden or Norway wanted to publish this list fine. They have no blood on their hands.
2) WTF took so long to take them off? They've been on the list since 1982? I haven't seen them sponsor anything since that time.
3) I don't know any nation state that sponsors "Terrorism" against the US just for shitz and giggles. I don't consider Hezbollah attacks on the Marine Barracks or US Air Force stationed in Damam Saudi Arabia terrorism. Uniformed military personnel aren't civilians by definition. Guerrilla warfare, asymmetric tactics etc. are fair game. There is no accepted definition of terrorism so the whole thing is moot.
4) Many Terrorist actors, Hezbollah, ISIS AlQaeda, aren't actually states in the first place. So what good is the list? Just to blackball our "enemies". Why not a list of terrorist groups killing Americans actively? I've never seen that as a matter of fact.
5) Where is the evidence that Cuba actually supported Terrorism? What was the burden of proof. I don't take the State Department at face value.
6) How can one man unilaterally determine without any evidence or proceeding that they are no longer a sponsor of Terrorism in Cuba?
7) If Cuba was a state sponsor of Terrorism, why isnt then Pakistan and why are they receiving $2.5 Billion a year in aid. We know full well that an arm of Pakistan's government, ISI, harbored Osama Bin Laden for 7 years a man guilt of killing 2900+ Americans. We also know that ISI regularly supports the Taliban against US soldiers, ignores terrorists transiting their borders, ignores the Haqqani network based in Pakistan and turned a blind eye to the terrorists that attacked the Mumbai hotel in India.
8) Is every nation that uses violence to combat US violence a "terrorist state sponsor" answer...yes

If it were the UN or some neutral European country doing this based on some process it might mean something. Instead they've made a mockery of Americans, diluted the meaning of a terrorist and politicized the whole process so that it means essentially nothing. End of rant Anet
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:47 am

The reason Cuba was added was because it supported separatist groups (FARC comes to mind). Of course, during Soviet times, Cuba had plenty of resources to support whatever band it wanted. After the collapse, there's barely anything for themselves, much less for others. It's high time Cuba was removed from the list. Saudi Arabia and Qatar have more blood in their hands for supporting militant groups. If it weren't for the fact that Pakistan hosts a nuclear arsenal and could use protection (lest it falls in Al Qaeda's hands), I'd make the case for it to be added to the list as well.
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seb146
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting Photopilot (Thread starter):
Well it's about bloody time that the USA removes Cuba from a list that they should never have been on in the first place.

Hear Hear!!!

Over the past 20 years, terrorist attacks have not come from Cuba. This silly blockade has gone on long enough. "They are a Communist nation!!" Well, look at the brutality by governments all around the world that the United States supports. You are telling us that a one party system on an island 70 miles from Florida is much worse than genocide? C'mon...
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
jetwet1
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 3):
The reason Cuba was added was because it supported separatist groups (FARC comes to mind). Of course, during Soviet times, Cuba had plenty of resources to support whatever band it wanted.

Wasn't there also a ship stopped heading from Cuba to North Korea with fighter aircraft hidden away ?
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting Photopilot (Thread starter):
Anybody else here been to Cuba and seen for themselves what their country is all about?

Yes. And while I support that this ban is lifted, Cuba is still a place where you see police everywhere. It is still a socialist state with few human rights.

The US have done a lot of things wrong, but regardless, it is still a democracy with a (sometimes more, sometimes less) working legal system and adhering to the rule of law. Cuba is not.

Yet I love the place, and I am sure that opening the country will also help the Cuban people and improve life in their society.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:59 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6):
Yes. And while I support that this ban is lifted, Cuba is still a place where you see police everywhere. It is still a socialist state with few human rights.

The US have done a lot of things wrong, but regardless, it is still a democracy with a (sometimes more, sometimes less) working legal system and adhering to the rule of law. Cuba is not.

I would say Cuba still has more human rights than the big majority of the world. There people enjoy the right to proper healthcare and education, something rather few countries can claim. I would sure prefer being a living Cuban with no freedom of speech over being a dead Haitian with freedom of speech.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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moo
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:20 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 5):
Wasn't there also a ship stopped heading from Cuba to North Korea with fighter aircraft hidden away ?

North Korea were sending jets to Cuba for maintenance and refurbishment - neither Cuba nor North Korea recognise the international sanctions against North Korea, so they should be free to do business between themselves. This discovery doesn't support keeping Cuba on a state sponsor of terrorism list tho.
 
jetwet1
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:52 am

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't 100% sure on what exactly had been going on with that.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting Photopilot (Thread starter):
Anybody else here been to Cuba and seen for themselves what their country is all about?

I you know, I certainly have. I really enjoyed visiting the place an hope to return someday soon.
Bring back the Concorde
 
CPH-R
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
North Korea were sending jets to Cuba for maintenance and refurbishment - neither Cuba nor North Korea recognise the international sanctions against North Korea, so they should be free to do business between themselves. This discovery doesn't support keeping Cuba on a state sponsor of terrorism list tho.

Especially since North Korea themselves were removed from the list years ago...
 
Ken777
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):

Thanks Obama, when anyone thinks of a terrorist, who doesn't think of a Cuban?

Are you talking about the Bay of Pigs?

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6):
Cuba is still a place where you see police everywhere. It is still a socialist state with few human rights.

In terms of a lot of police I guess that will help keep crime down when a ton of American tourists start visiting.

Human rights, I believe, is one area where there can be improvement with increased tourism and commerce. The US should be negotiating vigorously to improve human rights in order to reach those financial growth objectives. The stick hasn't worked that well so it's time for the carrot.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
I would say Cuba still has more human rights than the big majority of the world. There people enjoy the right to proper healthcare and education, something rather few countries can claim. I would sure prefer being a living Cuban with no freedom of speech over being a dead Haitian with freedom of speech.

I would give my life in exchange for liberty to think and speak as I please without fear of persecution.

Now, Cuba will remain a dictatorship unless the US meddles in ways we really ought not to. It will cease to be a dictatorship when the Cuban people decide to change it. The embargo did not change their minds, I doubt liberalization of trade will either. But it will improve their standard of living and perhaps they will have more access to media and education and perhaps that might weaken the dictatorship. Or maybe it won't. The Cuban government, as long as it is not openly hostile to the US's, is not our government's concern.

If we truly believe in democracy, then let the Cuban people revolt in their own time and on their own terms. Revolutions are rarely successful, but those that are usually come from within and from a genuine desire for democracy. You can't force them to happen. However, we should work them where possible to help foster a democratic spirit.

Certainly if we have friendly diplomatic relations with KSA, we should have them with Cuba.
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pvjin
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

Well, as someone living in a horrible Latin American slum my word and thoughts would have no power whatsoever on anything, thus I would rather have the healthcare and education.

I indeed agree that western powers shouldn't try to enforce democracy over other nations by destabilizing existing governments or even invading sovereign countries that aren't at war with anyone, that simply doesn't work.

During my trip in Cuba overall I didn't even find the country to be all that much less free than Thailand for example. In the former criticizing the government is forbidden, in the latter criticizing the royals is forbidden. Not much of a difference there. In both countries I could travel equally freely pretty much wherever I wanted, excluding military bases and such.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Moose135
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Certainly if we have friendly diplomatic relations with KSA, we should have them with Cuba.

We don't have a group of aging Saudis living in an electorally-significant area. If not for the political influence of Cubans refugees living in Miami, hoping to one day to return to Cuba and restore their former lifestyles, would the embargo have lasted 50 years, with no effect?
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
bhill
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:49 pm

Pretty sure Cuba was/is on the list not for performing or sponsoring terrorist acts, but because persons that commited those acts fled there and would not allow extradition for trail.
Carpe Pices
 
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pvjin
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):
Pretty sure Cuba was/is on the list not for performing or sponsoring terrorist acts, but because persons that commited those acts fled there and would not allow extradition for trail.

If that's a valid definition then United States should be on the list too. Luis Posada Carriles, a terrorist who bombed down a Cubana flight 455, a civilian passenger flight operated using a DC-8, still resides in Miami under protection of local Cuban "refugee" community. US government doesn't mind as the passenger aircraft he bombed down belonged to an enemy country.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6):
Cuba is still a place where you see police everywhere

Police are everywhere in the US as well so what's your point? The police in the US probably kill far more people than those in Cuba do to.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Are you talking about the Bay of Pigs?

I was talking about sarcasm  
 
photopilot
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Thanks Obama, when anyone thinks of a terrorist, who doesn't think of a Cuban?

You're right... the first "Cuban" I think of is Luis Posada Carriles, presently being sheltered by the USA in Miami.

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):
Pretty sure Cuba was/is on the list not for performing or sponsoring terrorist acts, but because persons that commited those acts fled there and would not allow extradition for trail.

Which is EXACTLY what the Americans are doing with Cuban-American terrorists like Luis Posada Carriles and were foing with Orlando Bosch Ávila, to name but two.

Or, how about terrorist training camps for anti-Castro paramilitary groups in South Florida such as Alpha 66, Comandos F4, Brigade 2506, or Accion Cubana.

The question always remains, Why are these "terrorist" groups allowed to operate freely in the USA? But I digress, it's not about US based terrorist groups, but about removing Cuba from the laughable US State Sponsor of Terrorism Listing, a time that has long passed.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 2):
If Sweden or Norway wanted to publish this list fine. They have no blood on their hands.

Huh ?
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 16):
Pretty sure Cuba was/is on the list not for performing or sponsoring terrorist acts, but because persons that commited those acts fled there and would not allow extradition for trail.

Plenty of states don't extradite to the USA and are not "Terrorist sponsors". France and the greatest nation on earth ever, Israel, also do not extradite to the US. Total double standard if thats the case.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 14):
During my trip in Cuba overall I didn't even find the country to be all that much less free than Thailand for example.

Yeah, I was in Syria in 2005 and frankly seemed more open the Saudi Arabia. Don't buy US Gov/Media propaganda.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Human rights, I believe, is one area where there can be improvement with increased tourism and commerce

Human rights have nothing to do with Terrorism. The US has police gunning down blacks, illegal detentions in Guantanamo & illegal drone strikes. Again major double standard. Either way, humans rights abuses are not terrorism.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
I would say Cuba still has more human rights than the big majority of the world.

Agreed. Especially compared to Middle Eastern states.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 21):

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 2):
If Sweden or Norway wanted to publish this list fine. They have no blood on their hands.
Huh ?

What do you mean huh? Norway and Sweden haven't illegally invaded Iraq, killed a million Vietnamese civilians, embargoed food and medicine to Cuba, used drones to kill their citizens without trial etc. etc.

Norway, Sweden, Switzerland etc. don't have the blood on the track record of double standards of the USA. They have credibility in publishing this kind of list in other words.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:13 pm

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 15):
We don't have a group of aging Saudis living in an electorally-significant area.

No, but Saudis have what the US craves: black gold. Tick them off, and in the blink of an eye oil prices may spike, bringing the US down to its knees. Despite the rhetoric of "the US will become/is a net oil exporter", it's still vulnerable to swings in oil prices.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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novak500
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:42 pm

I was in Cuba last July and split my time between Havana and Varadero. I found Havana fascinating. For a city that is overcrowded, poor and basically falling apart in some areas, the energy of the city and the spirit of the people was amazing. Also I have never seen people do so much with so little. I hope relations normalize soon so the average person’s standard of living can rise.

Varadero is just like every other culturally sanitized tourist resort area in the Caribbean. I could have been in Cancun, Dominican, Mayan etc… there was no difference, although the beaches were phenomenal.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 23):
No, but Saudis have what the US craves: black gold.

Correction. The Saudis have what the world needs - oil.
Most of the oil used in the US doesn't even come from Saudi Arabia.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 23):
Tick them off, and in the blink of an eye oil prices may spike, bringing the US down to its knees.

That's strange, we just ticked them off an they lowered the price. Which one is it?   
Bring back the Concorde
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
Most of the oil used in the US doesn't even come from Saudi Arabia.

Let Saudi Arabia enact a massive output cut and see how "little" influence they have over oil prices, whether the US consumes their oil or not.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
victrola
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 20):
Which is EXACTLY what the Americans are doing with Cuban-American terrorists like Luis Posada Carriles and were foing with Orlando Bosch Ávila, to name but two.

I have yet to hear a Republican address this issue. They talk a good game against terrorism until it is comitted by their good Cuban friends in Miami. I'm sure that people like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz consider these guys heroes and that the bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner was justified.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 27):
. They talk a good game against terrorism until it is comitted by their good Cuban friends in Miami. I'm sure that people like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz consider these guys heroes and that the bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner was justified.

Of course - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting victrola (Reply 27):
I have yet to hear a Republican address this issue. They talk a good game against terrorism until it is comitted by their good Cuban friends in Miami. I'm sure that people like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz consider these guys heroes and that the bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner was justified.

Republicans need an enemy to demonize, just like Netanyahu. Doesn't matter who. Same thing Hitler did blaming everything on Jews and Treaty of Versailles essentially. Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Russia - same same.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 26):
Let Saudi Arabia enact a massive output cut and see how "little" influence they have over oil prices, whether the US consumes their oil or not.

     

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 29):
Republicans need an enemy to demonize, just like Netanyahu.

Also correct.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 28):
Of course - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...

And again... correct.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Superfly
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:27 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 26):
Let Saudi Arabia enact a massive output cut and see how "little" influence they have over oil prices,

Not disputing how "little" or a lot their influence on oil prices is. Your wishful thinking of "bringing the US down to its knees" is implying that Saudi is capable of doing such. They've cut off their supply before and it resulted in long gas lines but didn't bringing the US down to its knees as you wish.
Bring back the Concorde
 
rwessel
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:06 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31):
They've cut off their supply before and it resulted in long gas lines but didn't bringing the US down to its knees as you wish.

Nah. The gas lines were mostly our own doing, a combination of rationing and price controls slowing down imports. There would still likely have been some short shortages (and lines), and almost certainly higher prices, but the iconic gas lines from 1973 would not have happened. Remember that the US only imported a about 12-13% of its oil from the middle east, even if that supply had been completely cut off (and it wasn’t), there was oil to be bought from elsewhere, but it wasn’t for sale at a price that made sense with the US price controls. So most of Europe, for example, got high prices, but little in the way of shortages.

In combination with some other economic issues, the embargo did contribute significantly to the major economic crisis of the 73-82 period. In that sense the embargo did terrible damage to the western economies, because the reduced growth rates associated with that are something we pretty get to pay for forever.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:01 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 32):
In combination with some other economic issues, the embargo did contribute significantly to the major economic crisis of the 73-82 period. In that sense the embargo did terrible damage to the western economies,

  
Good point and one of many reasons to end this foolish embargo.
Thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic.
Bring back the Concorde
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:25 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 32):
Nah. The gas lines were mostly our own doing, a combination of rationing and price controls slowing down imports.

Precisely.

And the price controls were enacted by US authorities, and them only.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 32):
the embargo did contribute significantly to the major economic crisis of the 73-82 period. In that sense the embargo did terrible damage to the western economies, because the reduced growth rates associated with that are something we pretty get to pay for forever.

Another words, it had a significant effect on the American economy and "nearly brought it to its knees"

Despite what some poster here say !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:45 pm

This would make for an interesting game:

If you have yet to see the State Sponsor of Terrorism list, go ahead and jot down the 4 countries you believe should be on the list. It is an utter joke.
 
DDR
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):

You aren't kidding. Police here certainly seem to be a little trigger happy. They also have some really nasty attitudes.

As far as Cuba, yes they should never have been on the list in the first place. I can't wait for full relations between the U.S. and Cuba to be established. It will make all those trips to Canada pointless and save lots of travel time  
 
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Aesma
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 6):
The US have done a lot of things wrong, but regardless, it is still a democracy with a (sometimes more, sometimes less) working legal system and adhering to the rule of law. Cuba is not.

That's a pretty big "regardless" don't you think ? Why is the US imposing sanctions on Putin right now, Russia is still a democracy with a working legal system and adhering to the rule of law, invading a couple of countries is no big deal, right ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:10 am

The whole thing is stupid. Its like having Israel publish a list of opponents and designating them terrorists. No one cares about what the village idiot of the planet thinks and whose on their naughty list be it Israel or the US. Yawn.
 
DDR
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RE: Cuba Removed From State Sponsor Of Terrorism List

Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):

In fairness, it is not just the U.S. that is imposing sanctions on Putin.

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