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DLFREEBIRD
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Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:37 pm

sorry, i'm not understanding why the GOP is blaming liberals.

does anybody want to explain this ?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ornia-drought-water-conservation-/
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:56 pm

First: it's politics. Whenever something is goes wrong or goes bad or isn't right, the opposition party will do what it can to lay the blame on the party that is in power. You don't win elections by saying that everything is just find, but vote for me. You claim that the party/person in power sucks...you point to the current bad shit happening...and blame it on them.

Now, let me ask you this, about this situation:

How many reservoirs have been built to service California in the last 3 decades?
What has been the increase (or decrease) in population in those same 3 decades?
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910A
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:01 pm

The GOP mantra is when in doubt blame the liberals. These GOP members quoted in the article failed to point out that these water restrictions are similar to the ones that were in effect during the last major drought that ran through 1995-1991, when a republican was Governor. His name was George Deukmejian.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
Now, let me ask you this, about this situation:

How many reservoirs have been built to service California in the last 3 decades?
What has been the increase (or decrease) in population in those same 3 decades?

And this is a place where environmental regulations bite themselves in the butt. Because you can't build anything, you can't do anything to protect the environment.
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:05 pm

Mismanagement of allocation of resources? Drastic restrictions on residents doesn't do much to alleviate drought as usually usage is under 10% of total water use. Agriculture is usually the big consumer usually at 50-60%.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:09 pm

It's very easy to see this as ironic and just assume 1: this drought is from climate change, 2: the GOP generally doesn't accept climate change while liberals do, and therefore 3: this is actually the GOP's fault.

First, is this drought actually related to climate change? Just as it's unscientific and absurd to say "wow, it's really cold this winter, the Earth is not warming," it's also wrong to say "there is some bigger storm or a drought or a hotter summer, climate change is true." I don't know what the science has to say on the drought, maybe climate change is affecting this drought, maybe it's just nature and it would have happened even if humans didn't exist.

Second, we just assume that since the GOP generally doesn't accept climate change while liberals do that there isn't some mismanagement involved, such as what fr8mech suggested. While this drought is really bad, and even if it is related to climate change, did the "liberals" in power manage the situation correctly?

My third point ties in with my second point. While many liberals with find this whole situation ironic at face value, things might not be as they appear (but they might, don't get me wrong.)

Just throwing out my 2c before this devolves into a conversation where both sides come to the table with certain assumptions and argue past each other.

Liberals: don't assume this must be climate change and don't assume that even if this is climate that the liberals managed this correctly. Conservatives: don't assume that just because they're liberals/it's in CA means that they inherently mismanaged the situation
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Liberals: don't assume this must be climate change

I don't assume. I listen to scientific experts in the field.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-...-change-and-the-california-drought

For years scientists warned us that climate change would bring more extreme weather. More blizzards, more storms, more drought.

They have been correct. I don't see why this is a "Liberal" thing. This is like vaccines or heliocentrism. It's a "one side is correct and the other side is incorrect and I'm sorry if that's not fair" thing. Reality isn't fair.
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seb146
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:50 pm

I would also point out that it is not all GOP'ers who are blaming "liberals" but, rather, that same small chorus of loud mouths and a secondary group of coat tail riders who do not want to rock the boat; Those people who think opposing Obama and "liberals" is better for the country than actually doing anything.

I just read an interesting article on a possible "heat bubble" in the Gulf of Alaska that scientists are thinking may be one factor for the drought. Since that small and loud group of right wingers does not believe in science, they will immediately jump on this as hogwash. So, I guess "liberals" would be blamed for that.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:53 pm

Couldn't it also be that with the increase of the population suburbia became bigger and that everybody wants a pool in his garden and a green lawn, nonwithstanding that they are actually living in an arid zone, where a rock garden with cactii might be more suitable?

Plus the increase of water usage by agriculture, again due to the increased population in the state?

[Edited 2015-04-16 17:14:46]
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):

hmm, Alaska is GOP country. they will have to take the blame for that/ or just deny there's a problem.

[Edited 2015-04-16 17:07:56]

[Edited 2015-04-16 17:08:30]
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 8):
Couldn't it also be that with the increase of the population suburbia became bigger and that everybody wants a pool in his garden and a green lawn, nonwithstanding that they are actually living in an arid zone, where a rock garden with cactii might be more approbiate?

Plus the increase of water usage by agriculture, again due to the increased population in the stare?

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Add the population increase to a complete unwillingness by the environmentalist wing of the the liberal left to allow any kind of growth or improvements in the capacity of the infrastructure and you have this disaster to deal with.

Climate change adds to the mix. The climate has been changing since we have had climate. It's that simple. Man-made climate is a farce. We can no more influence the global climate than we can control it.

What we can, and should do, is put measures in place to deal with the affects of climate change, like, oh, I don't know....drought. Maybe we could have built more reservoirs. Maybe some more water pipelines?

But, what did we do? Allow the population of the a desert region grow without expanding the necessary infrastructure to sustain life.

And, again, those infrastructure changes/enhancements are almost always opposed by the environmental wing of the liberal left.
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Okie
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 8):
Couldn't it also be that with the increase of the population suburbia became bigger and that everybody wants a pool in his garden and a green lawn, nonwithstanding that they are actually living in an arid zone, where a rock garden with cactii might be more approbiate?

Plus the increase of water usage by agriculture, again due to the increased population in the stare

  

The article points out that they are not building reservoirs to store water for fluctuations in rainfall/snow melt because of environmental special interest groups.
They have basically failed to manage resources properly.

You are correct about the agricultural which consumes roughly 90% of water usage to feed the population.

There have been many times over the last 5 decades that I am aware of that California has had drought conditions.
I am acquainted with a gentleman that has a roofing business in the LA area. He has come close to being starved out several times over the years. When it does not rain then roofs do not leak.

Okie
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Maybe we could have built more reservoirs.
Quoting okie (Reply 11):
The article points out that they are not building reservoirs to store water for fluctuations in rainfall/snow melt because of environmental special interest groups.

I thought this was usual politics but I consider Carly Fiorinia pretty sharp and she made a great point in a different article. There hasn't been a dam or reservoir built since 1971ish and in the 40 + years since the population doubled in California. Agriculture hasn't double in that time by a long shot.

California doesn't have that many dams or reservoirs. One of the planned but canceled ones would have held 15 million cubic acre feet of water and would have been the largest in the state. That basically would have resolved this crisis by itself as its enough for California for nearly 2.5 years by itself. They are simply letting the clean potable water run out to sea.

In Switzerland, they get hydro power and water but use fish hatcheries to spawn and migrate fish. The liberals in CA don't even want to use Salt Water Desalination. So basically, they screwed themselves.

California's infrastructure is a disaster. All of the fish concerns are addressable.
 
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seb146
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
a complete unwillingness by the environmentalist wing of the the liberal left to allow any kind of growth or improvements in the capacity of the infrastructure
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
those infrastructure changes/enhancements are almost always opposed by the environmental wing of the liberal left.
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
The liberals in CA don't even want to use Salt Water Desalination. So basically, they screwed themselves.

First off: you people need to define "liberal" because, in this case, it is anyone opposed to feeding America. In the past, it was anyone opposed to GWB or anyone opposed to WASP values or anyone opposed to Fox or anyone opposed to... What is the definition of the day for "liberal"?

Second: the right wingers demand fracking. That uses untold gallons of fresh water and horrific chemicals so water can not be used again ever. Oil companies get a pass on water restrictions so frack on. That is not "liberals" but, rather big oil buying Republican law makers.

Also, lumping in anyone in opposition to the right wing status quo as "liberal" is really missing the mark. Just because a few people file a suit per laws set up in the 1960s and 1970s by both parties is the fault of "liberals" today.

Stop blaming the boogie man. You all keep screaming at "liberals" to stop blaming GWB for Iraq. Well, stop blaming the "liberals" for things both parties had a hand in!
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EA CO AS
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting 910A (Reply 2):
The GOP mantra is when in doubt blame the liberals.

You say that as if the reverse isn't true as well.
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:30 am

First off most of the available natural runoff in California already has been claimed.

if they had spend billions, creating more reservoirs, all that would of accomplished was wasting money.
California already has 8x the reservoir needed for their run off.

also, about the drought history.

they have been looking at tree rings. they had a drought in the middle ages twice that lasted 200 years each time. The last time they had a drought it was in 1600 for short period, then again in 1850 for longer period. Then 1991-1995 and now. The problem is THEY ARE GETTING NO RAIN. They have record low rainfall, the lowest it's been in over 400 years.
 
Okie
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 15):
First off most of the available natural runoff in California already has been claimed.

Claimed yes.
Properly used no.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 15):
if they had spend billions, creating more reservoirs, all that would of accomplished was wasting money.
California already has 8x the reservoir needed for their run off.

Does not seem to be according to your linked article.

Okie
 
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Tugger
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:20 am

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 4):
Mismanagement of allocation of resources? Drastic restrictions on residents doesn't do much to alleviate drought as usually usage is under 10% of total water use. Agriculture is usually the big consumer usually at 50-60%.

Actually in the 80% range.

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 8):
Couldn't it also be that with the increase of the population suburbia became bigger and that everybody wants a pool in his garden and a green lawn, nonwithstanding that they are actually living in an arid zone, where a rock garden with cactii might be more suitable?

Plus the increase of water usage by agriculture, again due to the increased population in the state?

Well....

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Add the population increase to a complete unwillingness by the environmentalist wing of the the liberal left to allow any kind of growth or improvements in the capacity of the infrastructure and you have this disaster to deal with.

Climate change adds to the mix. The climate has been changing since we have had climate. It's that simple. Man-made climate is a farce. We can no more influence the global climate than we can control it.

What we can, and should do, is put measures in place to deal with the affects of climate change, like, oh, I don't know....drought. Maybe we could have built more reservoirs. Maybe some more water pipelines?

But, what did we do? Allow the population of the a desert region grow without expanding the necessary infrastructure to sustain life.

And, again, those infrastructure changes/enhancements are almost always opposed by the environmental wing of the liberal left.

Actually overall water use has not change significantly over the years even as population has nearly doubled. Per capita and even including agriculture California has managed water use very well. It has not increased much over the years:
http://www.lao.ca.gov/2008/rsrc/water_primer/water_primer_102208.aspx

And another covering a greater range, slightly different: http://www.capradio.org/media/3658640/Total%20Water%20Use%20(Freshwater%20and%20Saline%20Water),%20by%20Sector%20(1900%E2%80%932010)_800x585.jpg
http://www.capradio.org/articles/201...ined-before-current-drought-began/

Tugg
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Aaron747
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:26 am

Quoting okie (Reply 11):
You are correct about the agricultural which consumes roughly 90% of water usage to feed the population.

Let's be accurate at least - CA agriculture affects the entire national supply chain.

The economic impact is huge as well - the wine industry alone contributes $125 billion, according to the USDOC.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 15):
if they had spend billions, creating more reservoirs, all that would of accomplished was wasting money.
California already has 8x the reservoir needed for their run off.

also, about the drought history.

they have been looking at tree rings. they had a drought in the middle ages twice that lasted 200 years each time. The last time they had a drought it was in 1600 for short period, then again in 1850 for longer period. Then 1991-1995 and now. The problem is THEY ARE GETTING NO RAIN. They have record low rainfall, the lowest it's been in over 400 years.

I don't know why you're only talking about reservoirs. The environmental lobby IS a problem, and has been for decades.

California should be a global leader in desalinization, which would reduce its dependence on both rain AND importing water from the whole of the western US. Instead, the California Coastal Commission has blocked nearly *everything* put forth since the early 1970s. I grew up near the coast, and love it as much as anyone, but you have to be able to use *some* parts of it to process seawater for the water supply. It's the one resource that aint going anywhere.
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WarRI1
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:43 am

I am surprised that Liberals have not been accused of causing the death of Christ, never mind the draught. Before the next election, that will probably be hinted at.  

[Edited 2015-04-16 20:48:21]

[Edited 2015-04-16 20:49:04]
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Tugger
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Let's be accurate at least - CA agriculture affects the entire national supply chain.

The economic impact is huge as well - the wine industry alone contributes $125 billion, according to the USDOC.

The funny/interesting thing is that agriculture only accounts for just over 2% of the California economy. 80% of the water, 2% of the economy.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
California should be a global leader in desalinization,

        

If California actually did this it could resell water back to upstream Colorado River communities. It would completely change the water situation in the soutthwestern USA. The problem of course is that is expensive compared to water when it rains.

Thankfully here in San Diego County we finally have a desal plant coming on line. Hopefully more will come and we can increase this ones capacity over the years.

Tugg
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LAX772LR
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:51 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
The climate has been changing since we have had climate.

The Climate Change alarmists always seem to forget this....................


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
We can no more influence the global climate than we can control it.

...............the Climate Change deniers usually tend to ignore this.

Come now. While I too don't believe that humans can "stop" Climate Change, like some (morons) propose-- you cannot seriously sit here and state that pumping tons of greenhouse gases, CFCs, and other pollutants into the atmosphere doesn't have a negative effect on climate, can you?   


Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
The liberals in CA don't even want to use Salt Water Desalination.

They may not want to, but they're definitely doing it. SAN certainly is, and it seems various areas in the Bay will as well.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
I consider Carly Fiorinia pretty sharp

Really? She seems to have rather poor judgement and her track record is less than stellar. A disastrous CEOship, failed run for governor, etc. etc. etc.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
The liberals in CA don't even want to use Salt Water Desalination. So basically, they screwed themselves.

It's not liberals in CA who don't want to desalinate, it's professionals who manage water resources. Desalinated water costs about five times per liter what reservoir water does. It consumes a huge amount of electricity that feeds back into the same global warming mess that got us into this and then there's the issue that the brine from the desalination needs to be disposed of and that creates havoc in offshore waters. There's a lot about desalination that just isn't very good, so there are solid reasons to seek alternatives.

Besides, even if we could solve those problems (cheap fusion power became available next year and it's easy to build outlets that spread the brine out so as to minimize disturbance, there's still the issue of the availability of plants and the time it takes to build them.
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pvjin
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Climate change adds to the mix. The climate has been changing since we have had climate. It's that simple. Man-made climate is a farce. We can no more influence the global climate than we can control it.

Also animal and plant species have been going extinct since first species were formed. Apparently with your logic that means humans can't possible have anything to do with the current extinction wave that world is witnessing.

Just because something can happen naturally doesn't mean 7+ billion greedy humans couldn't make it happen too.
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Superfly
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:28 am

I thought everything was Bush's fault.
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Tugger
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
there's the issue that the brine from the desalination needs to be disposed of and that creates havoc in offshore waters.

This is silly, the salinity returns to normal levels within a short distance. And if you and truly worried just mix it into the sewage outflows we produce (there are those that claim THAT outflow are bad because of their LOW salinity).

Tugg
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seb146
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Desalinated water costs about five times per liter what reservoir water does.

In a state that has more natural earthquakes than the rest of the country.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 20):
Thankfully here in San Diego County we finally have a desal plant coming on line.

Near San Onofre. Great idea. Let's put a water plant next to a nuclear plant. What could possibly go wrong?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
First, is this drought actually related to climate change?

People assume climate change is a place getting hotter and hotter. Quite the contrary: it's fluctuations in climate (hence, climate change). A number of factors lead to California's drought:
1. The Pacific Current is cold water so it doesn't allow for much evaporation as the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic would.
2. This is not really connected to El Niño or La Niña (aka ENSO), but depending on which one forms will set the stage for other oscillations around the planet.
3. Looking at the entire West Coast, they've had above normal temperatures for quite some time. Alaska has also seen higher temperatures. While higher temperatures would involve more evaporation, if the air being pulled down from Alaska is cold, see point 1: dry cold air in a cold current won't have enough for rain.
4. The famous Pineapple Express eased the drought just a tad, but it needs to be consistent and that hasn't happened for a while.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
I just read an interesting article on a possible "heat bubble" in the Gulf of Alaska that scientists are thinking may be one factor for the drought.

A high pressure actually. There are semi-permanent cyclones and anti-cyclones. An example is the Atlantic Ocean with the Bermuda or Azores high. High pressure (anti-cyclone) spins clockwise in the northern hemisphere. If you notice, during hurricane season, all Cape Verde storms follow a similar track: east to west until they reach the Antilles at which point, depending on how strong the high is, they'll take a more northerly track or stay south in the Caribbean.

In the Pacific there are two: the Aleutian Low and the North Pacific High. It seems the North Pacific High has remained active and far stronger than the Aleutian Low, which would place all of the West Coast under its influence. Hence, the "heat bubble" is nothing more than air trapped inside that high.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Add the population increase

Population increase only exacerbates the problem, but it's not the cause of it. High population didn't cause the snow pack to reach record low. Just putting it out there in case anyone assumes that it's a problem.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 21):
The Climate Change alarmists always seem to forget this

Just how much climate is changing and how much influence do we have is a different story. There's no denying that climate change happens on a continual basis.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
I thought everything was Bush's Obama's fault.

Fixed it for you.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
What could possibly go wrong?

Do you have any other suggestions? I would assume this desal plant is going on-line to off-set the effects of the drought. After the state returns to normal levels I would assume the desal plat would be turned offline or kept at "idle".

But anyway, what do I know? I studied weather, but we have a senator that offers a far better angle to this:
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
us330
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:11 pm

I'm not a California native, but I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the history of water rights in California, so I consider myself fairly educated on certain aspects of this topic.

Even though I'm politically center-right, a great background source for learning about this topic is Cadillac Desert, written by Marc Reisner, who was with the NRDC. It's a great introduction to water and the west.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
don't know what the science has to say on the drought, maybe climate change is affecting this drought, maybe it's just nature and it would have happened even if humans didn't exist
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
For years scientists warned us that climate change would bring more extreme weather. More blizzards, more storms, more drought

I've seen the relevant tree-ring records and read the scientific analyses, some of which were published in the 1930s, way before climate change became an issue, let alone a political football. Scientists have known for years that the West and California suffered from periodic mega-droughts during the Anthropocene Era, before the Industrial Revolution and subsequent rise in CO2 emissions.

Given that mega-droughts have occurred in California within the span of human memory, it's hard to definitively say if anthropogenic climate change is a driver of this most recent drought.

California was sparsely settled by the Spanish, and reliable, first-person historical records of temperature and climate only exist since the 1850s.

There is plenty of tree-ring evidence to suggest that when California and the West became settled in the latter half of the 19th century that the area was going through a wet period.

Given my background, my BS detector immediately goes off when I read any news article claiming that anthropogenic climate change is the primary cause for why the California snowpack is at its lowest level since the 1950s, especially when that same article claims that accurate snowpack records weren't kept before the 1950s.

Even without the skyrocketing of post Industrial Revolution era CO2 emissions, California would still be vulnerable to mega-droughts.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
California should be a global leader in desalinization, which would reduce its dependence on both rain AND importing water from the whole of the western US

The problem with desalinization is the cost and energy involved.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:30 pm

What about building a water pipeline transporting water from eastern states that have excess water from heavy rain and snowfalls.

Let's say huge water tanks are built to hold water then send the water through pipeline to drought-plagued California?

How much would it cost?
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 20):
The funny/interesting thing is that agriculture only accounts for just over 2% of the California economy. 80% of the water, 2%

What people don't realize is that water is being wasted in California because the price of water to agriculture is being subsidized. If there were a free market price for water you wouldn't be able to grow water guzzling crops like cotton and alfalfa in California.
 
wingman
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
California should be a global leader in desalinization, which would reduce its dependence on both rain AND importing water from the whole of the western US. Instead, the California Coastal Commission has blocked nearly *everything* put forth since the early 1970s. I grew up near the coast, and love it as much as anyone, but you have to be able to use *some* parts of it to process seawater for the water supply. It's the one resource that aint going anywhere.

There's this suggestion, and the one above regarding water pipelines from Oregon, WA, or Alaska. If there's a single act that CA Democrats have embraced that makes them as criminally insane as any GOP'er it's wasting money on high speed rail vs. new fresh water technology or infrastructure. I don't know anyone who hasn't figured out how to get to LA or SF quickly and cheaply, so why we'd spend tens of billions of dollars on a non issue while we have a catastrophe on our hands is mind boggling. More dams, desal plants, water pipelines..try 'em all I say. The Guv or the Pres should use whatever authority they have to just "make it so" and bypass the usual insane building process (or non-process more like it).

I'll skewer any party or group of politicians that do stupid shit..but it doesn't get anyone else off the hook for being grossly uninformed. Water problems in CA have little to nothing to do with the general population and everything to do with the above situation, agriculture, and this historical drought we're in. Here's a recent and excellent piece that addresses a weeklong series of misinformed articles in the NYT on our situation here. Enjoy:

http://medium.com/matter/let-it-rain-ac793178d51c
 
D L X
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
There hasn't been a dam or reservoir built since 1971ish and in the 40 + years since the population doubled in California. Agriculture hasn't double in that time by a long shot.

Here's one question: how does creating a reservoir create more water? Don't dams CAUSE droughts? (At least for some areas that are no longer getting the water because of the dam, they do.)
 
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Tugger
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 20):
Thankfully here in San Diego County we finally have a desal plant coming on line.

Near San Onofre. Great idea. Let's put a water plant next to a nuclear plant. What could possibly go wrong?

  
Incorrect. The desal plant is in Carlsbad (next to an oil and gas fired power plant), not next to San Onofre (which is now shut down and now being decommissioned).

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27):
I would assume this desal plant is going on-line to off-set the effects of the drought. After the state returns to normal levels I would assume the desal plat would be turned offline or kept at "idle".

It won't be idled, the costs will just be absorbed into the local water costs. The plant has a 30 or 50 year contract with the local water authorities to buy the water. It can provide about 10% of the local water needs. While not a cheap option it is considered an important stable addition to the local water supply so the cost is worth it. Sure if it suddenly starts raining cats and dogs there will be complaints etc. but as we see we just cannot predict and therefore count on water falling out of the sky.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27):
Just how much climate is changing and how much influence do we have is a different story. There's no denying that climate change happens on a continual basis.

  

Quoting us330 (Reply 28):
Given that mega-droughts have occurred in California within the span of human memory, it's hard to definitively say if anthropogenic climate change is a driver of this most recent drought.

  

Quoting us330 (Reply 28):
Even without the skyrocketing of post Industrial Revolution era CO2 emissions, California would still be vulnerable to mega-droughts.

  

Which to me means we need to work to reduce adverse effects we may have on the issue and we must build significant reserve capacity for our water needs.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 29):
What about building a water pipeline transporting water from eastern states that have excess water from heavy rain and snowfalls.

Let's say huge water tanks are built to hold water then send the water through pipeline to drought-plagued California?

How much would it cost?

You could do it but then other states would complain as they too need the water. And honestly, why not got the cheaper route and funnel that water to the farms and other states between California and parts east (if you were to do it)? Water wars.. gotta love 'em, we all need water!

Quoting victrola (Reply 30):
What people don't realize is that water is being wasted in California because the price of water to agriculture is being subsidized. If there were a free market price for water you wouldn't be able to grow water guzzling crops like cotton and alfalfa in California.

  
While I can honestly support some level of protection or additional water allowance for farming, it appears it is very much unbalanced and needs to be addressed. Trust me that the farmers and agriculture industry are very concerned right now as any real work on this subject could lead to a big change for the industry that has "traditionally" had first or prime water rights for centuries. They do not want that to change and the hue and cry if anything changes will be huge.

Tugg

[Edited 2015-04-17 08:29:27]
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 33):
And honestly, why not got the cheaper route and funnel that water to the farms and other states between California and parts east (if you were to do it)? Water wars.. gotta love 'em, we all need water!

And that's within a country. Imagine if each state were a completely independent nation. If California struck a deal with Missouri to transport water from the Missouri and Mississippi rivers, you can bet Kansas, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada will want in for placing a pipeline through their territory to ship water while they're drought stricken as well. It's why many people are saying that future wars won't be for territory or oil; it'll be for water. Any country with a preserved body of water (a lake) or origin of a river sits on a very important resource and will be calling the shots when there's a water shortage.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
sccutler
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:37 pm

Very odd. Nothing in the cited article blames the drought on liberals; there are some obvious challenges to the choices made in water use restrictions, always a good topic for discussion.

Now, for those who would contend that aggressive measures to reduce the use of water for non--essential purposes are somehow wrong, I would suggest some very careful self-examination is in order. Looking at the Southern California region, San Diego on up through Los Angeles, the entire area is naturally arid. The persistent efforts to maintain it as a lush, green paradise are entertaining, but ultimately, unsustainable. Landscape practices must be aggressively changed to do away with most irrigation requirements.

There is no more conservative principle than declining to waste resources; this is an issue conservatives ought to own, and lead with action rather than rhetoric.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
us330
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
Don't dams CAUSE droughts? (At least for some areas that are no longer getting the water because of the dam, they do.)

No. Dams release water on a more controlled basis. The idea is to have a steady stream of water rather than times of drought or deluges.

In calculating the dam's yield, especially in the desert southwest, you also have to take into account evaporation that occurs from the surface water just sitting there.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 35):
The persistent efforts to maintain it as a lush, green paradise are entertaining, but ultimately, unsustainable. Landscape practices must be aggressively changed to do away with most irrigation requirements.

Australia is constantly pointed to as a model for which California should look to emulate--climactically, the two are very similar.

A possible market-based solution would be to price water usage in a manner similar to tax brackets. Figure out a way to guarantee everyone a necessary minimum with which to live by that can be priced at affordable rates, then jack up the price when the usage exceeds a certain amount.

To illustrate, here's a hypothetical: say it was determined that 100 gallons of water per day was the designated allotment per person. For the first 100 gallons of water, the price would be $1.50 per gallon. For gallons 100-200, the price increases to $10.00 per gallon. For gallons 200-300, the price increases to $20.00, and so on...

Also, cities aren't necessarily the problem here--it's agriculture that predominantly uses the majority of the state's water.
 
sccutler
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:40 pm

Water use for agriculture is a valid use - but it should be used less wastefully than has been practice.

As for home landscaping, my goal is to have a yard which requires no watering at all, and to only spot-water individual plants, if even those. Indigenous plants and flowers tend to look better, anyway. When I think back to how much water I used to water my yard when I lived in Southern California, I cringe. Were I still there, I'd tear out all that grass and go for prairie grasses and xeriscaping.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:51 pm

I know this a relatively minor concern compared to the numerous other issues a drought can cause, but what about the many golf courses around California? I have not read about any specific action involving them, just the general encouraging of reducing water usage. Here are a few known facts about golf courses: 1) Golf participation has steadily and significantly declined since the end of the big boom in 2008. 2) As part of this decline, hardly any new courses have opened since then, and almost a thousand nationwide have closed. 3) The golf industry has tried to be proactive about reducing water usage, many courses out west already use treated waste water over drinking water, as well as testing new grasses that require less water. 4) The Southern Nevada Water Authority about 15 years ago offered a significant tax credit to Las Vegas area courses to convert a large percentage of their grass/rough areas to desert landscape. Most courses that could take advantage did, and it had a positive impact.

So with those facts known, I wonder what the appropriate action California should take towards golf courses. It's a luxury, not a necessity. Therefore, would it be proper to mandate that some courses be closed? Would simply increasing the price of water for golf courses be a better solution, or would that not be a quick enough solution given the urgency of the drought?
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
victrola
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 38):
I know this a relatively minor concern compared to the numerous other issues a drought can cause, but what about the many golf courses around California? I have not read about any specific action involving them, just the general encouraging of reducing water usage. Here are a few known facts about golf courses:

There was an interesting report on NPR about a golf course in California a couple of days ago. They have some pretty innovative systems and are using a lot of waste water and are catching all the rain water that falls on buildings on the course. They have computer operated sprinklers and monitors to only water spots in need and not to over water other areas.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 38):
So with those facts known, I wonder what the appropriate action California should take towards golf courses. It's a luxury, not a necessity. Therefore, would it be proper to mandate that some courses be closed? Would simply increasing the price of water for golf courses be a better solution, or would that not be a quick enough solution given the urgency of the drought?

Ski resorts need to close when they don't have enough snow for their activities. It's only logical that any activity that depends on weather and hampers its practice either expands from its original activities (ie. find something else to supplement it when the going gets tough) or close.

Ski resorts don't only just offer slopes, they offer getaways so a ski resort without snow needn't be completely doomed.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 39):
They have some pretty innovative systems and are using a lot of waste water and are catching all the rain water that falls on buildings on the course

I don't think that would work in Palm Springs, which far and away has the most golf courses per sq mile in all of California. That area is where the drought is most critical, and Palm Springs sees less than an inch of rain a year.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 40):
Ski resorts need to close when they don't have enough snow for their activities.

You are right, but I don't think this is a fair comparison. For starters, if a mountain does not get sufficient snow, a resort can choose to spray powder to make the mountain skiable. Second, and this is more critical - ski resorts don't take up much critical land. At a ski resort, you have the lodge (small footprint), and a bunch of poles for the chair lifts (again, small footprint, and the animals that live on the mountain have adjusted to life with the lifts). If a ski resort closes due to lack of snow, it's not a big deal, the land is not likely valuable/repurposable for much else, and should the conditions in the area allow for a ski resort in the future, not a huge deal to re-open the facilities.

If a golf course goes bad for lack of demand or water, it screws up a lot of things. For starters, if the course has homes surrounding the property (or in many cases, between individual holes), it affects the value of the homes (when, in turn, can hurt the real estate economy). Nobody wants to look at a bunch of dead overgrown grass. Golf courses are in prime locations in which the land could easily be re-purposed for something else. Temporarily closing a course is not easy - to restore the course to proper condition on re-opening costs of ton of money and takes a lot of time.

I'm curious if the government could claim an "emminent domain" type of seizure for public emergency - if there is such precedence or the legality of such a move.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
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Aesma
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:11 pm

In France we sometimes have droughts, but our climate is much more moderate. Yet water use restrictions happen every few years, bans on watering lawns in the day, washing cars etc. Nobody complains about this.

As for agriculture, the state is very supportive (and local and European authorities), helps in building small reservoirs etc. (still adhering to very strict environmental laws), however that help comes with the obligation to grow sensible crops, common sense really.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 35):
There is no more conservative principle than declining to waste resources; this is an issue conservatives ought to own, and lead with action rather than rhetoric.

But US conservatives are focused on conserving the virtue of teenagers, unwanted fetuses in women's uteri, and guns in people's hands. Conserving the world we all live in doesn't matter.


Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 38):
treated waste water over drinking water

My workplace has very large lawns and landscaping, ponds, trees, and its own wastewater treating plant to use as little freshwater as possible. Now as part of the renovation of the buildings toilets use reclaimed water too.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 28):
The problem with desalinization is the cost and energy involved.

Hence the need for more R&D and coordination on the topic with the incredible university research resources available in the state - 25 years ago.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Thread starter):
does anybody want to explain this ?

Underlining all this is actually "God is angry because California is so liberal and allows such things as Gay Marriage and Medical marijuana useage and treats their women like whores and blacks as people instead of slaves and criminals"

Any party with that many religious nutjobs will always bring it back to God and the bible eventually.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 15):
The problem is THEY ARE GETTING NO RAIN. They have record low rainfall, the lowest it's been in over 400 years.

I don't think its just rain, the mountains in California don't get the snow they normally get and snowfall releases slowly when it melts fulling the reservoirs and recharging aquifers. Heavy rainfall in a drought will run off and very little will be stored as the soil cannot absorb it unless it is a slow release.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 4):
Mismanagement of allocation of resources? Drastic restrictions on residents doesn't do much to alleviate drought as usually usage is under 10% of total water use. Agriculture is usually the big consumer usually at 50-60%.

Actually in the 80% range.

California needs to come down to reality it does not have the climate to support a green landscape. You really should not have landscapes in CA that look like it is tropical because their natural climate cannot support it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Let's be accurate at least - CA agriculture affects the entire national supply chain.

The economic impact is huge as well - the wine industry alone contributes $125 billion, according to the USDOC.

It's not sustainable and we need to come to grips that while California gets a lot of sun that is precisely why its an arid place naturally and it not a place where a nation of 300 million people gets a good chunk of its food. In good times it creates a great yield but in times like this its simply not going to work consistently.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
there's the issue that the brine from the desalination needs to be disposed of and that creates havoc in offshore waters.

This is silly, the salinity returns to normal levels within a short distance. And if you and truly worried just mix it into the sewage outflows we produce (there are those that claim THAT outflow are bad because of their LOW salinity).

As of today desalination regardless of how it is done is expensive regardless of how it is done. There are promising nano-tech solutions to do it efficiently but how do you put that residue back into to ocean in similar concentrations.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
In France we sometimes have droughts, but our climate is much more moderate. Yet water use restrictions happen every few years, bans on watering lawns in the day, washing cars etc. Nobody complains about this.

The same in Canada (we have more water than we no what to do with) which is what I find shocking about what is going on in California kind of shocking. This drought had been going on 4 years and restrictions are being placed now. We have a dry spring or summer in the Toronto area over a few months and water restrictions are placed on people such as no watering of plants during the day and no pleasurable use of water. I can be fined for washing my car when these restrictions are in place.
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sccutler
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
But US conservatives are focused on conserving the virtue of teenagers, unwanted fetuses in women's uteri, and guns in people's hands. Conserving the world we all live in doesn't matter.

That "bundling" of doctrines is brought to you by way the perpetuation of bigoted and ignorant stereotypes. Be strong and resist perpetuating these myths.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 46):
That "bundling" of doctrines is brought to you by way the perpetuation of bigoted and ignorant stereotypes. Be strong and resist perpetuating these myths.

Well not all of the conservatives anyway, but most seem to go out of their way to make us think so. At least the conservative spokespeople, the ones who get the headlines.

[Edited 2015-04-17 20:37:14]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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seb146
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 45):
We have a dry spring or summer in the Toronto area

Yeah, but your spring starts in July, summer until August 15, fall until September 17-ish and winter begins promptly thereafter. Not to mention yet another disappointing hockey season.  

Most of California is either "Mediterranean" or "desert" climate. Yes, California avocados, tomatoes, olives, and such taste great. But, with how many million people living here also?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
us330
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RE: Liberals Blamed For California Drought

Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
Most of California is either "Mediterranean" or "desert" climate.

What isn't being mentioned in all of this discussion is how this will effect the upcoming fire season. Wildfires are a natural part of many California eco-regions (especially Southern California)--I expect that this year's fire season may set a record for damage costs.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
Not to mention yet another disappointing hockey season

Yes, Torontonians have plenty of experience with long droughts. They've been suffering one since 1967  

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