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YVRLTN
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Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:15 am

Seems Indonesia is resisting all international pressure and proceeding with 10 executions of drug smugglers, only one of which is an Indonesian national and two include the Australian ring leaders of the "Bali 9", a Filipino maid who is a single mother of two young children who was duped into being a mule and a mentally ill person from Brazil, a Frenchman as well as some from Nigeria and Ghana who no one seems to be as outraged about...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...indonesia-moved-to-execution-place

Meanwhile murderers get a tame jail sentence. Not a place I will be visiting for vacation or supporting with my dollars... how about you??
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:11 am

Funny how they were complaining after the Saudis executed two Indonesian women a few weeks ago.

Jan
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:20 pm

It's time to end this barbaric practice worldwide.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 2):
It's time to end this barbaric practice worldwide.


  

Obviously Europe has proven it can survive without it.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Thread starter):
Meanwhile murderers get a tame jail sentence. Not a place I will be visiting for vacation or supporting with my dollars... how about you??

You know its amazing how many Westerners go to Bali and in light of this I am just kind of shocked more don't boycott or just don't go. Let's not forget the massive bombing that took place there 10 years ago where Al Qaeda specifically targeted westerners and in particular Australians.

I'm also shocked at the total lack of media coverage. It seems human rights issues in some countries percolate to the top of the NY Times and others just fall into the abyss.

The US has power and influence over friendly nations like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia. They do not on their sworn enemies yet that's were they suddenly become a human rights champion. Its both ineffective and ignores travesties like these.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 4):
You know its amazing how many Westerners go to Bali and in light of this I am just kind of shocked more don't boycott or just don't go.

The vast majority of whom don't break any laws. Why shouldn't they visit Indonesia? Many states in the US execute prisoners, should we all boycott the US as well?

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 4):
Let's not forget the massive bombing that took place there 10 years ago where Al Qaeda specifically targeted westerners and in particular Australians.

So we should also avoid any country that been victim of a terrorist attack? Won't be many places left to travel to soon.
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Elite
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3):

Obviously Europe has proven it can survive without it.

Has it? When you have murderers that can't be deported because of their human right to "family life"? I agree a country or continent can do without it but Europe is probably not a good example.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 2):
It's time to end this barbaric practice worldwide.

Agree.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
The vast majority of whom don't break any laws.

That's if you trust their police and justice system. I don't, and the present case doesn't help. The French foreign minister said himself that the trial of Frenchman Serge Atlaoui was not done according to international standards.

Atlaoui isn't a drug smuggler, but accused of helping set up an Ecstasy lab. He's a welder. I don't know if he knew what he was doing or not, but my confidence in Indonesia's justice is not high.

BTW, his execution was actually not announced, so either French pressure worked, or his case isn't as clear as others.

Quoting elite (Reply 6):
When you have murderers that can't be deported

Those kind of stories only come from the UK. I don't know what's wrong in the UK justice system, but the EU is not the cause.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Thread starter):

Meanwhile murderers get a tame jail sentence. Not a place I will be visiting for vacation or supporting with my dollars... how about you??

It's a little far to travel from where I live, but if I was back in NZ I've have no problem holidaying in Bali. I'm not a drug smuggler, I wouldn't be that stupid, these people knew the risks and now they have to pay for their stupidity, I've got no problem with this sentence.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3):
Obviously Europe has proven it can survive without it.

You think so? I don't there's plenty of human excrement living in European prisons who should be six foot under.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 4):
You know its amazing how many Westerners go to Bali and in light of this I am just kind of shocked more don't boycott or just don't go.

What's amazing about it, for Aussies it's a cheap holiday, with sun, surf and excellent food in an exotic location.

Quoting elite (Reply 6):
When you have murderers that can't be deported because of their human right to "family life"?

Yup and Norway has a few of them, including a Rwandan who hacked to death 2000 people with a machete, the Norwegians won't deport the animal because he'll get the death penalty back home. Our taxes now have to pay for this garbage for the next 21 years, then we'll look after him when he's released.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Those kind of stories only come from the UK. I don't know what's wrong in the UK justice system, but the EU is not the cause.

I can think of a few in Norway who we can't and won't deport and now they live at the taxpayers expense, amongst them are several terrorists and a couple of mass murders.
 
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 8):
I can think of a few in Norway who we can't and won't deport and now they live at the taxpayers expense, amongst them are several terrorists and a couple of mass murders.

Yes, like Mullah Krekar, wich someone at the Pentagon considered "picking up" without Norwegian authorities concent, using the Navy Seals ...
 
andrej
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:39 pm

You do the crime, you do the time (or what's left of it).
 
Pyrex
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Thread starter):
Not a place I will be visiting for vacation or supporting with my dollars... how about you??

I have no intention of smuggling drugs into Indonesia or any other country, so would have no problem with it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Those kind of stories only come from the UK. I don't know what's wrong in the UK justice system, but the EU is not the cause.

Plenty of stories like that from Portugal as well. And while it is not directly the EU's fault, it is the fault of the do-gooder politically correct mentality that permeates the EU and has made it the joke it is today. The EU is a great place to live in if you happen to be criminally inclined, that's for sure.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 9):
Yes, like Mullah Krekar, wich someone at the Pentagon considered "picking up" without Norwegian authorities concent, using the Navy Seals ...

Frankly, there are a few people in Portugal who our wise courts refuse to extradite that I would have no problem if the Americans decided they wanted to pick up. One I can think off the top of my head is a guy who applied for Portuguese nationality under a false name after escaping from prison (and hijacking a plane) in the U.S. where he was facing a life sentence for murder. He couldn't be extradited when caught because, get this, he had Portuguese nationality (never mind he applied for and was granted nationality under a false name and false pretenses).
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DocLightning
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
I have no intention of smuggling drugs into Indonesia or any other country, so would have no problem with it.

You know, one thing they love to do is smuggle drugs in unsuspecting passengers' suitcases. It's done by baggage handlers at the departing airport operating in collusion. You get there and there are drugs in your suitcase. If the handlers on the receiving end don't remove them before they get inspected by Indonesian customs, then you have drugs in your suitcase.

How much do you trust the Indonesian justice system to let a European tourist go on the basis of: "Those aren't my drugs! I have no idea where they came from!"

It has happened.

It's the big problem with overzealous drug policy. Too many innocents get caught up in the trouble.

[Edited 2015-04-26 13:08:33]
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Ken777
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:29 pm

Executions for drug smuggling has long been a part of that part the world. While I might not like the idea of executions except in very limited cases I also know that countries like Indonesia and Singapore will carry out those executions - and the diplomatic efforts aren't going to keep them from happening.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
Frankly, there are a few people in Portugal who our wise courts refuse to extradite that I would have no problem if the Americans decided they wanted to pick up. One I can think off the top of my head is a guy who applied for Portuguese nationality under a false name after escaping from prison (and hijacking a plane) in the U.S. where he was facing a life sentence for murder. He couldn't be extradited when caught because, get this, he had Portuguese nationality (never mind he applied for and was granted nationality under a false name and false pretenses).

So you think it's cool that other nations challenge your status as a sovereign nation ?
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
You know, one thing they love to do is smuggle drugs in unsuspecting passengers' suitcases. It's done by baggage handlers at the departing airport operating in collusion. You get there and there are drugs in your suitcase. If the handlers on the receiving end don't remove them before they get inspected by Indonesian customs, then you have drugs in your suitcase.

How much do you trust the Indonesian justice system to let a European tourist go on the basis of: "Those aren't my drugs! I have no idea where they came from!"

It has happened.

It's the big problem with overzealous drug policy. Too many innocents get caught up in the trouble.

That is basically the case of the Filipino maid, worse it was done by her own family!

I totally get the concept of dont break the rules, no problem, but when there is a justice system that does not investigate such cases then I wont be supporting that countries tourism industry.

Executing drug smugglers is also all well and good if those are the rules, but when other crimes like murder which are a more obvious capital punishment are dealt with by jail time, it exposes the whole thing as some egotistical pantomime. In this case with the "Bali 9" duo it seems they have truly reformed and successfully rehabilitated to be great members of society and keeping them alive to share their experiences will be a far greater help in the prevention of the drug trade than murdering them. The Brazilian guy is mentally ill, murdering him defies all international charters apart from those places who wish to remain in the dark ages of course.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Atlaoui isn't a drug smuggler, but accused of helping set up an Ecstasy lab. He's a welder. I don't know if he knew what he was doing or not, but my confidence in Indonesia's justice is not high.

BTW, his execution was actually not announced, so either French pressure worked, or his case isn't as clear as others.

France have said "there will be consequences for Indonesia" should they proceed. Maybe Australia has not been so forthright...
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mercure1
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:16 pm

I fail to understand how or why people complain about laws in other nations.
It is a very basic tenant that nations can create and apply laws based on their own views. That is after all what sovereignty is for a nation.
I see it as fallacy that we somehow apply a certainly litmus test to view actions of other states.
I'm sure many are not too enthused and rightfully can critique the manner the justice systems work (or in many cases fail society) in nations inside EU states also.
So I dont see that we hold right to view things or expect Indonesia to somehow follow rules which were deemed appropriate in France, Australia, Canada or any other nation. French laws are French laws, and Indonesian laws are Indonesian laws. We should respected both as each is applicable within such borders.
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Pyrex
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 14):
So you think it's cool that other nations challenge your status as a sovereign nation ?

To be a proper sovereign nation you need a functioning judicial system, which is far, far from what we have right now. Our judges are nothing but a bad joke.
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BestWestern
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:47 pm

I'm in Indonesia working this week, and specifically in Bali. The rules are quite clear - you smuggle drugs - your penalty is Death. All the stoners in Bali don't seem to realise that.

The ironic thing is that I understand (never checked if true) the Australia police knew their nationals had drugs in their bags and let them depart for Indonesia, essentially sealing their future.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
You know, one thing they love to do is smuggle drugs in unsuspecting passengers' suitcases. It's done by baggage handlers at the departing airport operating in collusion. You get there and there are drugs in your suitcase. If the handlers on the receiving end don't remove them before they get inspected by Indonesian customs, then you have drugs in your suitcase.

How much do you trust the Indonesian justice system to let a European tourist go on the basis of: "Those aren't my drugs! I have no idea where they came from!"

It has happened.

It's the big problem with overzealous drug policy. Too many innocents get caught up in the trouble.

That is basically the case of the Filipino maid, worse it was done by her own family!

I totally get the concept of dont break the rules, no problem, but when there is a justice system that does not investigate such cases then I wont be supporting that countries tourism industry.

Executing drug smugglers is also all well and good if those are the rules, but when other crimes like murder which are a more obvious capital punishment are dealt with by jail time, it exposes the whole thing as some egotistical pantomime. In this case with the "Bali 9" duo it seems they have truly reformed and successfully rehabilitated to be great members of society and keeping them alive to share their experiences will be a far greater help in the prevention of the drug trade than murdering them. The Brazilian guy is mentally ill, murdering him defies all international charters apart from those places who wish to remain in the dark ages of course.

We had a case here a bout ten years ago with a young German who was on death row in Malaysia for several months for drugs smuggled into his baggage. This backpacker was caught LEAVING Malaysia for Germany with acertain amount of heroin in his rucksack (checked baggage). He deinied ever have known about it, but was sentenced to death under Malaysia's mandatory death sentence for drug smugglers laws. It turned out that he had shared a hotel room with another German traveller during the last nights in Malaysia and this other German had placed to package into to young guy's rucksack without his knowledge and then travelled back to Germany on his own, to retrieve the parcel back home. Fortunately for the first traveller, German police managed to catch the other gtuy and, on questioning, confessed that the drugs were his. He later served a prison sentence in Germany for it. Diplomatic channels managed to get the guy out of death row and back home.

In another case I know a guy who fell for a blackmailing scam in the Philippines during the Marcos years. While staying in a hotel in Manila one evening his room was raided by police, who seemed to know exactly whereto look and find a bag full of pot in the hotel room cabinet. He got arrested and then told by the police officers that he'd either have to give them all his money or he would spend the next ten years in prison. After he gave them al cash he had with him, they released him. He claimed that the dopedid not belong to him, but was probably placed there by a chamber maid, who worked in cooperation with crooked cops (hence the cops knowing exactly where to look).
He was lucky that he had left most of his funds with the German embassy in Bangkok, so, through the German embassy in Manila, he cabled them and bought himself a flight ticket for the first flight out of the Philippines. He never returned until many years later he met and married a Filipna in Germany and travelled back to the Philippines to visit her family.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Atlaoui isn't a drug smuggler, but accused of helping set up an Ecstasy lab. He's a welder. I don't know if he knew what he was doing or not, but my confidence in Indonesia's justice is not high.

BTW, his execution was actually not announced, so either French pressure worked, or his case isn't as clear as others.

France have said "there will be consequences for Indonesia" should they proceed. Maybe Australia has not been so forthright...
[/quote]

One guy on another forum said that there will be some uproar for a few weeks and then it will be business usual, with the politicians discussing trade.

It seems that Widodo is only executing foreigners now and wants to have all foreigners off death row by the end of the year. It seems that it is for internal consumption, blaming Indonesia's ills on those interfering foreigners.

Jan
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TheCommodore
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
It seems that it is for internal consumption, blaming Indonesia's ills on those interfering foreigners.

He was interviewed a few days ago on TV here in Australia. One of the things he mentioned was that Indonesia has a huge drug problem, with more the 5 million Indonesians undergoing some sort of rehab. He stated that this is an epidemic for the country to deal with, and that he intends to deal with it strictly.

I can understand his concern about this, as it would be a massive problem for any first world country to have to cope with on such a large scale, let alone a third world country like Indonesia.

I am against the death penalty 100%, preferring that the smugglers get to think about the actions in jail for the rest of their lives, and I mean the rest of their lives. No early release.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
I am against the death penalty 100%, preferring that the smugglers get to think about the actions in jail for the rest of their lives, and I mean the rest of their lives. No early release.

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty, e.g. in case of the Indian rapists I'd gladly put the rope around their necks and pull the lever, and for the one who went on bragging that it was all the victim's fault because she resisted, I'd make the rope a bit shorter, so that he'd be dancing on the end of it for a while instead of a cleanly broken neck.

But I'm currently in the Philippines and follow the local news outlets. Apparently the Filipina came from a dirt poor family, which eeked out a living by scavenging rubbish for scrap. She was offered a job as a maid in Malaysia by one of her in-laws, who accompanied her there. In Malaysia the job was "already occupied", so her relative told her that she had heard of another job in Indonesia.The young woman (single mother of two) was supposed to go there on her own and the relative would follow her, but "could she please take the suitcase for her, since she had little luggage". This suitcase had the heroin sewn into the lining.
The thing is that I personally know people from the slums like her and I know hoqw hard their lives are.

One thing about the Philippines, as compared to the other countries in the region, is that they are reasonably democratic (though a lot of power lies in the hands of about 100 rich families), but the press is quite free and not afraid of critizising politicians.

Jan
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Kiwirob
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:25 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 9):
Yes, like Mullah Krekar, wich someone at the Pentagon considered "picking up" without Norwegian authorities concent, using the Navy Seals ...

I bet there are many in theNorwegian govt as well as most Norwegians who wish they had done that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
It has happened.

Cite some cases please, and not Corby she's guilty and was lucky not to get the firing squad.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
In this case with the "Bali 9" duo it seems they have truly reformed and successfully rehabilitated to be great members of society and keeping them alive to share their experiences will be a far greater help in the prevention of the drug trade than murdering them.

Where is your proof that this has happened, the Indonesian priosion system isn't like Norway's where reform is the name of the day, it's about punishment.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
I am against the death penalty 100%, preferring that the smugglers get to think about the actions in jail for the rest of their lives, and I mean the rest of their lives. No early release.

That's a huge waste of taxpayer funding.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:46 am

Part of the problem here is inconsistent application of the law. Foreigners in particular are normally shown no sympathy whatsoever as they are high profile "examples", but as a newspaper article I read recently pointed out, if the Indonesian government was actually serious about clamping down on drugs then they would send law enforcement to poke around the bars in Jakarta where they are being dealt in plain view. The reason they don't is that most Indonesian politicians (and Police) have their hand in the greasy tin.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 4):

Regarding media coverage I think it depends on how incensed the readers are likely to get, and thus how many copies sold/news viewed/pages clicked. This has been the number one news story for what seems like months here in Australia, yet appears to have not been so high profile in the USA. The difference, of course, is that there are two Australians but no Americans facing the firing squad.

As an aside I have been quite disappointed with the level of news coverage here. The argument is entirely "it's disgraceful that they would execute Australians", but no debate about the death penalty itself. The normal line of reasoning is, implicitly, it's fine for Indonesia to execute whoever they like so long as they are not Australian. This argument annoys me because I think we should be pushing for the end of the practice altogether, not just spare two lives. While I disagree with the practice, I understand that it is the law in Indonesia and therefore I understand and accept that these two will be put to death. The sad reality though is that the whole of Australia will have forgotten about their faux-outrage over the death penalty within a week of them being executed. If we stand against the death penalty it should be in all it's forms.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
As an aside I have been quite disappointed with the level of news coverage here. The argument is entirely "it's disgraceful that they would execute Australians", but no debate about the death penalty itself.

I think you can put that down to the fact that these guys are dinky die true blue Aussies, one is Chinese and the other Indian. I think the level of outrage would have been ratcheted up if they were blonde haired surfer boys and their last names were Smith or Jones.

Could you imagine the media frenzy if say Corby has been sentenced to death and it was her time in the firing line not a couple of immigrant Aussies? I definitely think race has an impact on this.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:51 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3):

Yes, we survive without it only by endangering lives of ordinary law abiding citizen. At least here in Finland the standard practice is to release dangerous criminals back into the society, wait for them to commit murder/rape/robbery, then lock them in again. But eerybody deserves a second or third chance to hurt people, right? Next year our almighty "justice" system will release a Somali guy who first went into prison in 93 for rsping a 13yo. Got out in 95, killed and raped a 15yo girl. Got a 3 hour holiday from jail in 05, during which he raped a 3yo. Radical Muslim, still dangerous according to psychiatrists treating him. Can't be banished as no country wants him. Does this kind of western justice sound good to you? I'll eat my hat if this guy doesn't rape or murder someone within first two years from release. While death penalty for drug smugglers might be questionable, for the very worst animals out there it fits perfectly. Nothing barbaric about killing those who kill innocents.

[Edited 2015-04-27 00:57:34]
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MillwallSean
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:15 am

The one thing I find a bit interesting with this case is that while Indonesia is very happy to shoot some mule foreigners, the main drugpins sit happily in mansions known by many. Owning hotels and fancy villas, attending parties with politicians and military. These people have a perfect network within the big group of supporters to the old autocratic government that has moved into Bali over the last two decades and who the locals (old, mainly hindu Balinese population) resent...

Without saying to much, I need to work in Indonesia from time to time, there are a few websites to read about what happens when you challenge these men with very strong ties to the old military regime. A regime the good people of Indonesia got rid of in a popular revolt but who still play an important part in society.
Westerners who have pointed out who the local drugpins were have found themselves reported to interpol, facing allegations of very strange nature and in most cases they have been forced to simply leave Indonesia in a haste. you cant challenge such powerful people in a country like Indonesia. 100% fabricated charges (found out to be fabricated by 3 different courts of foreign law etc etc) is not new there. Don't attack the men with power because you go up against a network you cant win against, right or wrong such trivial points doesn't matter, money and network thats what matters.

Indonesia has a huge drug problem. Indonesia is also a major source of drugs.
Shooting a few mainly African mules (see the so called Frenchman) might give the new president some local credibility, but until he deals with the strong link between previous establishments, their corrupt practices and links not just to drugs but to a lot of other illegalities such as logging, burning of forests, control of energy, extortion to foreign companies etc, Indonesia will be part democracy part failed narcostate.
The new president obviously comes from a very different network, and has strong opinions on crime and honesty, one reason he got elected, and most expats seem to support him, but not sure why he choose to take on these battles with his foreign policy.
After all, what does he have to win by executing mules?
Destroyed foreign relations with soon 10 countries, that when your a poor country in desperate need of foreign capital and investment makes very very little sense. As said by others Australia may not care too much these are not Smith and Jones or Sharpelle Corby, these are a second generation Chinese and Sri lankan, but other countries keep this in their minds. There is a hefty price to pay and is this really the time for indonesia to pay?
When Malaysia executed two Australians in the 80ies, the economic setback was monumental. Academics have calculated it set the country back five years in regards to economic development. The reduction in foreign investments in exports and lost business was huge. Was it worth it for them to see foreign companies avoid KL and instead go all in on Singapore?
Maybe for self esteem, Im not Malaysian, but in a country with a lot of poor persons, Like Indonesia you may question the priorities. Are drug mules the criminals a country like Indonesia should focus on?

Its also very interesting that in Bali the authorities seem to have taken a very strong line against certain foreigners while in other parts (primarily Java, Jakarta) foreigners have landed at Soekarno-Hatta with greater amounts of drugs and they have been given 30 years and quickly forgotten about. I assume that the reason why they pushed so heavily for the death-penalty for these mules is internal politics in Bali.
Also worth mentioning, if you however are a Balibomber killing alot of innocent tourists, then of course there is no execution. Then 15 years jail is sufficient. Priorities and networks...

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
I'm in Indonesia working this week, and specifically in Bali. The rules are quite clear - you smuggle drugs - your penalty is Death. All the stoners in Bali don't seem to realise that.

The ironic thing is that I understand (never checked if true) the Australia police knew their nationals had drugs in their bags and let them depart for Indonesia, essentially sealing their future.

Th Australian agencies tipped the Indos off.
The gang were smuggling from Indonesia to Aussie, not Aussie to Indonesia...

The buyer of the heroin sits happily in Sydney, having "won" money on gambling and living a very good life with fancy cars and lifestyle. The supplier of the heroin was a Indonesian syndicate with very strong ties to certain influential families in Indonesia.

No one needs to smuggle drugs by plane to Indonesia, a small tip to the local navy and your in with a boatload of it. However Indonesia hardly needs drugs smuggled into the country, its production is more than self-sustainable, and there is a history of outward smuggling, especially to the neighbouring countries.
certain Indonesian islands have local governments and law enforcement where certain activities happen more frequent than in other places...
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 22):
That's a huge waste of taxpayer funding

Yeah i know it is kiwi, but we have to teach the silly bastards a lesson !

There is nothing like the rest of your life in the clink.....just to think about your actions, and the inevitable consequence on those around you.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 26):
The one thing I find a bit interesting with this case is that while Indonesia is very happy to shoot some mule foreigners, the main drugpins sit happily in mansions known by many.

Oh come on...

Where are you living ?

This is Indonesia we are taking about. A country that can be bought off easily.

It happens ALL over the world !!!!!         

[Edited 2015-04-27 02:33:43]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):

Yes it is true that the Australian Federal Police tipped off the Indonesians. In this case it was not an instance of baggage handlers placing anything in a traveller's bags. The guys were guilty, of that there is no doubt. The only protest is over the death sentense being imposed.

The latest drivel from Julie Bishop (Foreign Minister) is her protest that the Indonesians gave notice of the execution to the Australian Government on Anzac Day, as if a day commemorating a side show in the First World War should be of any interest in Jakarta.

I must admit that I find the Australian Government's position rather odd. When David Hicks was interned in Guantanamo, the then Prime Minister, John Howard, stated that he would have no objection to Hicks being executed, despite his having committed no offence in Australian law and there being no death penalty in Australia. Yet members of the same party are in a blather over drug smugglers who knew the penalty before deciding to break the law.

It seems that the Government's objection to the death penalty is conditioned by which country might be imposing it. The attitude of the media is similarly two-faced. On the one hand a drug pusher in Australia would be described as a low life, yet as soon as a young woman was arrested in Indonesia we were all expected to believe she was a sweet little princess.

While I do not support the death penalty I find it difficult to have sympathy for people who knowingly traffic drugs to a country where the death penalty is imposed. Every traveller from Australia is warned before they travel. They know the risks, they take their chances. If they get caught, they have no grounds for complaint.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:40 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
The latest drivel from Julie Bishop (Foreign Minister) is her protest that the Indonesians gave notice of the execution to the Australian Government on Anzac Day, as if a day commemorating a side show in the First World War should be of any interest in Jakarta.

So you think commemorating ANZAC day is a...... "side show" only to use your words..... ?

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
On the one hand a drug pusher in Australia would be described as a low life, yet as soon as a young woman was arrested in Indonesia we were all expected to believe she was a sweet little princess.

Thanks to the ABC... tax payer funded.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:03 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
yet as soon as a young woman was arrested in Indonesia we were all expected to believe she was a sweet little princess.

If she had been a minger it would have been a completely different story, Corby looks good on camera, that's all there is too it.
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:05 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):

To the Indonesians it would be. Should we really expect the justice ministry or foreign affairs department of another country to put everything on hold because it is a public holiday somewhere? Would a court in Sydney, Melbourne or Perth adjourn and not impose a sentence on an Indonesian citizen who broke our laws simply because it is 17th August?
Crawl, walk, fly into the future
 
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zkojq
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:37 pm

I'm not a supporter of the death penalty (unless the convict presents a real danger to the public) and don't have much faith in the Indonesian justice system, but I shan't shed a tear for the Bali 9. Given how prolific the case has been, I hope that it has caused some potential drug mules to reconsider.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
You know, one thing they love to do is smuggle drugs in unsuspecting passengers' suitcases. It's done by baggage handlers at the departing airport operating in collusion. You get there and there are drugs in your suitcase. If the handlers on the receiving end don't remove them before they get inspected by Indonesian customs, then you have drugs in your suitcase.

  

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 22):
Cite some cases please,

Ok, here you go:

Quote:
An Auckland grandmother opened her suitcase four years after her last overseas trip to discover $50,000 worth of amphetamine stashed in a side pocket.

Gillian Rodgers, 74, dug out her old suitcase on Saturday for a trip to Blenheim and found a tightly-packed bag of white powder, about the size of a packet of cigarettes.

Ms Rodgers last used the suitcase four years ago when she made a month-long cruise around Australia with a friend before flying home to Auckland from Sydney.

She suspects someone put the drugs into her suitcase pocket and that she was being used as mule to get the package into the country.

"I could've been picked up at the airport. Or if I'd gone through somewhere like Bali or Thailand with that in my bag ... terrifying."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11185834

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Executions for drug smuggling has long been a part of that part the world.

Yup. Attempt at your own risk.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 22):
and not Corby she's guilty and was lucky not to get the firing squad

Yup. I'm surprised that she got as much sympathy as she did. Its pretty common knowledge that she comes from a reasonably prolific drug dealing family.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
The reason they don't is that most Indonesian politicians (and Police) have their hand in the greasy tin.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 26):

The one thing I find a bit interesting with this case is that while Indonesia is very happy to shoot some mule foreigners, the main drugpins sit happily in mansions known by many. Owning hotels and fancy villas, attending parties with politicians and military.

   The sad thing is that in most of these cases, the actual drugs will eventually get onsold by said corrupt officials and end up on the street anyway.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
The sad reality though is that the whole of Australia will have forgotten about their faux-outrage over the death penalty within a week of them being executed.

I dunno, the longer this drags on the more likely it is that they will become some kind of martyrs.  
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 26):

Good post.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 30):
Corby looks good on camera

No, she really doesn't.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:13 pm

She looks far better than the two idiots about to eat bullets.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 2):
It's time to end this barbaric practice worldwide.

Especially since those who investigates the murder cases cannot be trusted.
Members of an elite FBI forensic unit have deliberately given non correct
testimonies with the purpose of getting the defendant convicted.

Quoting The Washington post:

FBI admits flaws in hair analysis over decades

The Justice Department and FBI have formally acknowledged that nearly every examiner in
an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all trials in which they offered evidence
against criminal defendants over more than a two-decade period before 2000.

Of 28 examiners with the FBI Laboratory’s microscopic hair comparison unit, 26 overstated
forensic matches in ways that favored prosecutors in more than 95 percent of the 268 trials
reviewed so far, according to the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL)
and the Innocence Project, which are assisting the government with the country’s largest
post-conviction review of questioned forensic evidence.

Then according a study about 4% of those in the USA who have been sentenced to death are innocent.

Quoting the study:

Significance

The rate of erroneous conviction of innocent criminal defendants is often described as
not merely unknown but unknowable. We use survival analysis to model this effect, and
estimate that if all death-sentenced defendants remained under sentence of death
indefinitely at least 4.1% would be exonerated. We conclude that this is a conservative
estimate of the proportion of false conviction among death sentences in the United States.

An article in The Guardian regarding the study above.

Quoting The Guardian:

At least 4.1% of all defendants sentenced to death in the US in the modern era are innocent,
according to the first major study to attempt to calculate how often states get it wrong in
their wielding of the ultimate punishment.

A team of legal experts and statisticians from Michigan and Pennsylvania used the latest
statistical techniques to produce a peer-reviewed estimate of the “dark figure” that lies
behind the death penalty – how many of the more than 8,000 men and women who have
been put on death row since the 1970s were falsely convicted.

The team arrived at a deliberately conservative figure that lays bare the extent of
possible miscarriages of justice, suggesting that the innocence of more than 200 prisoners
still in the system may never be recognised.

That means that in the last 40 years 340 people have been wrongfully sentenced to death.

Extremely appalling from a so called "democratic" country.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 34):
Extremely appalling from a so called "democratic" country.

The European (or at least Nordic) model where murderers are given ridiculously short sentences isn't any better at all. Worst murderers and serial rapists definitely don't deserve a second change, the only alternative to death sentence for them should be a lifelong prison sentence. The way many European countries endanger lives of ordinary citizen by releasing dangerous criminals back into the society is appalling.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
victrola
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 26):
if you however are a Balibomber killing alot of innocent tourists, then of course there is no execution. Then 15 years jail is sufficient. Priorities and networks...

Yes, a very bizarre sense of justice in Indonesia. You smuggle a bit of drugs you get death. You murder a hundred people, you are out in 15 years.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
Yes it is true that the Australian Federal Police tipped off the Indonesians. In this case it was not an instance of baggage handlers placing anything in a traveller's bags. The guys were guilty, of that there is no doubt. The only protest is over the death sentense being imposed.

We have been here before, when Barlow and Chambers were executed (hanging) in Malaysia:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/dru...ysia/2005/11/29/1133026469659.html

They were drug mules and there were the same accusations that the AFP had tipped off the Malaysians, and it led to "chilly" relations between the two countries for a while - but that didn't last.

I'm in a quandary here because I'm strongly against the death penalty, but it is the law in some countries and anyone who smuggles drugs knows the risks they are running. So -

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
If they get caught, they have no grounds for complaint.

- I have to agree.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 28):
On the one hand a drug pusher in Australia would be described as a low life, yet as soon as a young woman was arrested in Indonesia we were all expected to believe she was a sweet little princess.

I agree again, except that I never thought Schapelle Corby was a sweet little princess.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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Aesma
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 35):
The European (or at least Nordic) model where murderers are given ridiculously short sentences isn't any better at all.

So, do you feel safer in Indonesia or Finland ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 38):
So, do you feel safer in Indonesia or Finland ?

I would feel safer in Finland if we had death sentences, or at least long enough prison sentences for worst criminals. With Finnish punishments Indonesia would sure be a lot less safe place.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:58 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 26):
Destroyed foreign relations with soon 10 countries, that when your a poor country in desperate need of foreign capital and investment makes very very little sense. As said by others Australia may not care too much these are not Smith and Jones or Sharpelle Corby, these are a second generation Chinese and Sri lankan, but other countries keep this in their minds. There is a hefty price to pay and is this really the time for indonesia to pay?
When Malaysia executed two Australians in the 80ies, the economic setback was monumental. Academics have calculated it set the country back five years in regards to economic development. The reduction in foreign investments in exports and lost business was huge. Was it worth it for them to see foreign companies avoid KL and instead go all in on Singapore?
Maybe for self esteem, Im not Malaysian, but in a country with a lot of poor persons, Like Indonesia you may question the priorities. Are drug mules the criminals a country like Indonesia should focus on?

I think that the Indonesian government doesn't care about Europe or Australia too much, they will get support from the PRC.
There is currently the ASEAN summit running. The Philippines (together with Vietnam, Brunei and Malaysia) want to push through a resolution condemning the building of artificial islands big enough for port facilities and military runways, in the contested areas of the South China Sea. ASEAN works by concensus. Other ASEAN countries, like Indonesia, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand have no territorial disputes with China. The Chinese government will offer to compensate Indonesia for any losses due to Western embargoes, but this economic support will come with strings, e.g. supporting Chinese aims in South East Asia and maybe eventually military bases.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
melpax
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:19 am

Rolling coverage from The Age.

Authorities have not allowed Chan & Sukuraman to have a pastor of their choice to witness their execution, instead the authorities will select their own Christian advisor, despite previous assurances... The 2 pastors who were to attend to both Chan & Sukuraman were Australian......

http://www.theage.com.au/world/bali-...ran-sukumaran-20150428-1mv6d8.html
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:26 am

As for the Filipina, according to news here, the woman, who has allegedly recruited Ms. Veloso and given her the suitcase with the heroin, has handed her in to the Filipino police after having received death threats and apparently has been arrested. According to the news here, Indonesian president Widodo has called in a cabinet meeting.
If I would be Veloso's father, I"d go after the people who dumped her in the mess with a gun. They are easy to get here and there are plenty of places where a body would never be found (fish food).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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bwest
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:27 pm

While I don't agree with death penalty, I also think that every country has the right to set their own laws. So if you try to traffic drugs to or from a country where the penalty for doing so is death, you kinda have it coming. I regret the loss of life, especially as most of the condemned were in their early twenties when they were caught, but they were still responsible for their actions and should have known this was the consequence.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
I'll eat my hat if this guy doesn't rape or murder someone within first two years from release.

I think this guy should just get sent back to whatever country he comes from, but even if that isn't possible, the Finnish government should not let him roam on the streets again. Over here in Belgium, a clearly criminally deranged guy like that would be locked up in a psychiatric ward of a prison after their official jail time, as they would be deemed to big a risk to be released
 
bennett123
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:42 pm

AFAIK, there is no dispute about the guilt of the people executed.

They knew the consequences.

What I find curious, given the current stance of the Australian authorities, is that they did not arrest them when they reached Australia.
 
AR385
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:58 pm

There are 3 Mexicans scheduled to be executed in Malaysia for drug trafficking, meth. Since 2006 the Mexican government has been giving them all legal support possible, but at this point all legal instances have been exhausted and the only thing that could save them is a pardon from the Sultan of the province where they are jailed. Something that has never happened. They are scheduled to be hanged.

I am against the death penalty, and yes, these three were probably, as these 8, pawns in the bigger business of the big fish. Out of principle, I hope that their sentences are commuted. And I also understand that in a few particular cases, the legal system failed them. But the fact is most engaged, in some way, in drug trafficking.

I understand poverty, and the consequences that it has on people, the desperation they find themselves sometimes when they have no food in the table, or someone is sick and there is simply no money.

But, I also know thousands of poor people that go out and work honest jobs, 18 hrs a day, even if it brings a meager salary that sometimes does not even cover the basics. But they choose that, rather than engage in a more lucrative activity that is illegal and has consequences, like in Indonesia or in Malaysia. So I do not really think poverty, is an excuse for most of those involved in these two cases.

I´ve hear as of 5 mins. ago the 8 were executed. I cannot find a source yet.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 45):
I´ve hear as of 5 mins. ago the 8 were executed. I cannot find a source yet.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11439944
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
AR385
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:19 pm

Thanks aerorobnz,

I found this link, only in Spanish. It says 8 were executed. The Filipina was not.

http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/i...ico-incluyendo-al-brasileno-845191
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 45):
I am against the death penalty, and yes, these three were probably, as these 8, pawns in the bigger business of the big fish. Out of principle, I hope that their sentences are commuted.

So am I.....

But, having said that, these 2 Australians were about to smuggle in 8 kgs of pure heroine ....

I can only imagine the death and grief that causes for the heroine tackers themselves, and their families and loved ones. it must be terrible for them.

Still. I think life in prison, and I mean life, would have been a better outcome than death.

Gives them lots of time to think about there actions and the shit it causes for the addicts/family.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: Bali 9 Duo & 8 Others To Be Executed

Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
The vast majority of whom don't break any laws. Why shouldn't they visit Indonesia? Many states in the US execute prisoners, should we all boycott the US as well?

That's an apple to oranges comparison. No one stateside is executed for anything really other than murder. And certainly not tourists of all people.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
So we should also avoid any country that been victim of a terrorist attack? Won't be many places left to travel to soon.

No, but Indonesia doesn't look very compelling.

They did execute them and its quite unnecessary. Sure Iran and Saudi Arabia execute people too but not foreign tourists. There was a kind of ruthlessness to this saga typical to Islamic Countries that I find quite uncivilized.

And its not about a few bozos who knowingly broke the rules, it's about the kind of people you are and how destructive this kind of ruthlessness is to a society.

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