United Crew Member Arrested In HAM/Germany

debonair · Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:05 pm

Sorry if discussed before...

A German United crew member was arrested on Tuesday morning in HAM after arrival of flight UA074 from Newark.
The arrest warrant was issued as the crew member was convicted for tax evasion last year.

Source, sorry only in German:
http://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/ham...Hamburger-Flughafen-verhaftet.html

I didn't know, that United hired German citizen as crew member, based in EWR... Will this effect the career as well?

LTU932 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting debonair (Thread starter):

I didn't know, that United hired German citizen as crew member, based in EWR.

So? That person may have emigrated to the US to find a job.

What's funny is that the Abendblatt calls the crew member a stewardess. There I thought, stewards and stewardesses don't exist anymore (by name). That being said, how can a simple flight attendant get arrested for tax evasion. I mean, if the person works for United in the US, then the taxes are paid there, aren't they? Or does he have to pay German income taxes because he/she is hired and paid by United's German subsidiary?

Taxes, whenever I think of them, my head starts spinning.

United1 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Or does he have to pay German income taxes because he/she is hired and paid by United's German subsidiary?

There is no German subsidiary that I know of...

zeke · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):

If she is based in HAM, the airline and herself should be paying local taxes. This is often the first step, prosecute the easy target, the single employee, that establishes president, then fine the company heavily for tax evasion, I.e. Not paying the social taxes for the employee. It does not matter if they are employed out of the U.S. and paid in U.S. dollars, it is where the employee is based.

United1 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
If she is based in HAM, the airline and herself should be paying local taxes. This is often the first step, prosecute the easy target, the single employee, that establishes president, then fine the company heavily for tax evasion, I.e. Not paying the social taxes for the employee. It does not matter if they are employed out of the U.S. and paid in U.S. dollars, it is where the employee is based.

There is no HAM base....

zeke · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 5):

So where does UA base their foreign language FAs from ?

CONTACREW · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:20 am

Said FA is NLS (Newark Language Speaker) based and was hired by CO.

CONTACREW · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 6):

This particular trip is an sCO crewed trip out of the NTA (Newark Transatlantic) and NLS (Newark Language Speaker) bases. sCO language bases are in Newark, Houston & Los Angeles however only Newark & Houston have german speakers.

N104UA · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
What's funny is that the Abendblatt calls the crew member a stewardess. There I thought, stewards and stewardesses don't exist anymore (by name). That being said, how can a simple flight attendant get arrested for tax evasion. I mean, if the person works for United in the US, then the taxes are paid there, aren't they? Or does he have to pay German income taxes because he/she is hired and paid by United's German subsidiary?

If they are based in EWR they will most likely have U.S. Work Authorization, usually either a citizen or a green card. The only Europe based crews that UA has is in LHR, and the article says that the person lived in the USA.

Income tax is completely based upon the country, if you are a US Citizen, under FATCA, you are required to file a tax return even if you did not step foot in the U.S. once that year.

The article said that the F/A was released at 12:30 after a friend paid the 5400EUR, would be interesting to see if she is working the flight back tomorrow

zeke · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 8):

Tax laws don't care where the airline says a person is based, it could be Mars. What they want to know is where they reside, everyone knows commuting is rife in the U.S., a crew rostering base means nothing. The crash in buffalo is a perfect example.

We have German nationals with a rostering base in HKG, and non German nationals with a a rostering base in FRA. The rostering base is never the prime consideration when determining if a natural person or a company is a tax resident and is required to pay tax.

CONTACREW · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):

You were asking where does UA staff it's foreign language FAs from and I answered this trip is an sCO crewed trip out of the Newark international and speaker bases you didn't ask where this particular FA resides.

zeke · Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 11):

Where I work, the company got significant fines in Europe in the past few years. Tax authorities there have clamped down on airlines, they want tax paid onshore.

It is airlines like Norwegian that is causing all of this issue, employing pilots on Singaporean contracts, rostering base in Bangkok, no employment visa in Thailand, while actually residing in Europe. The structure is in my view to avoide paying tax, to reduce costs.

RWA380 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:55 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
The article said that the F/A was released at 12:30 after a friend paid the 5400EUR, would be interesting to see if she is working the flight back tomorrow

I doubt she is working a flight home, considering she was arrested upon arrival of her flight into Germany. I'm not saying she will be, or should be terminated, all I am saying is that when a crew member is arrested while on company time, they are considered off duty until the matter is resolved to the carriers satisfaction.

She was replaced by another crew member as a substitution & she likely dead headed or non-revved home, if she's still in the good graces of her employer, I'd not be the person to know how these type of matters are determined & resolved with flight crew.

But I can say, that my cousin is a Deputy for a county here in Oregon & his BK of 15 years ago, almost cost him that job before he even got it. I know the standards for law enforcement are quite high, as they should be, it just shows that some positions in life also come with a certain standard by which you must conduct yourself, act professional & be professional.

The ONLY reason they excused his BK was that both himself & his lovely wife (who I went to private school with years before they met) drained their life savings & home equity trying to keep her Mom living with them, but her Mom needed so much in home care it killed them financially & they ended up having to put her in a locked advanced memory care facility.

N104UA · Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:59 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
The article said that the F/A was released at 12:30 after a friend paid the 5400EUR, would be interesting to see if she is working the flight back tomorrow

I doubt she is working a flight home, considering she was arrested upon arrival of her flight into Germany. I'm not saying she will be, or should be terminated, all I am saying is that when a crew member is arrested while on company time, they are considered off duty until the matter is resolved to the carriers satisfaction.

That was a bit of sarcasm that didn't come across in writing.

CONTACREW · Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):

The return trip will be worked with 5 FAs instead of the usual 6.

blueflyer · Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:00 am

I couldn't read the article due to a paywall, so I am left asking whether we even know for a fact her tax evasion is employment-related. Could be she tried to avoid paying taxes on property she still owns in Germany, or an inheritance, or any other one of hundreds of ways to commit tax evasion outside one's professional sphere.

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
It is airlines like Norwegian that is causing all of this issue

And Ryanair. They have employees living in one country, beginning and ending all their trips in that same country, yet claim them as Irish residents for tax reasons because they're under contract with an Irish company. Many (most) of these employees never set foot in Ireland for professional reasons save for their initial training perhaps.

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
Tax laws don't care where the airline says a person is based, it could be Mars. What they want to know is where they reside, everyone knows commuting is rife in the U.S., a crew rostering base means nothing.

Seems fair. An individual is more likely to use government services wherever they live as opposed to another location they may spend just a few hours in before or after a trip. I realize it may be an additional reporting burden, but I consider this the flip side of the benefits employers derive from making it possible for their employees to choose their domicile.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
Income tax is completely based upon the country, if you are a US Citizen, under FATCA, you are required to file a tax return even if you did not step foot in the U.S. once that year.

That was already the case well before FATCA.

RWA380 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:08 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 14):
That was a bit of sarcasm that didn't come across in writing.

Ah, gatcha, thanks for the heads up. Indeed the witten form is not easy to convey sarcasm, I'm pretty sarcastic too, I'm surprised I didn't catch it.

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 15):
The return trip will be worked with 5 FAs instead of the usual 6.

I guess I did not know that flights are operated with less than a full compliment of crew, that has changed at some point in the past then.

PanHAM · Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:11 am

I could not read the article as well due to the paywall.Would be interesting to learn the Explanation why she was arrested for tax Evasion.

Could be that she still is registered in Germany in which case she has to enter a tax return, even if she has paid taxes in the USA. Germans and USA have a double Taxation Agreement, what she pay there is credited to her German tax payment.
If she permanently lives in the US, she does not have to pay any taxes in Germany at all but she has to inform the authorities. In Hamburg that would be the "Bezirksamt". They inform the tax authorities automatically.

Still, the reason, if shown in the article, would be interesting to know.

CONTACREW · Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:36 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):

Normal staffing on the 75B on TATL flights is 6 1 ISM 5 FA (no speakers) 1 ISM 3 FA 2 Speakers if it's going to a destination requiring speakers. Also if a 75B trip is worked with less FAs then what is published in the bid packet then the crew gets what's called "Short Crew Pay". Y/C will have 3 FAs working instead of the usual 4 J will remain with the normal 2. Service may take a bit longer then usual but it will get done.

[Edited 2015-04-29 00:45:31]

TheSonntag · Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):

Income tax is completely based upon the country, if you are a US Citizen, under FATCA, you are required to file a tax return even if you did not step foot in the U.S. once that year.

Indeed. In Germany it is based on residence, if you live in Germany more than 180 days (the actual rules are more complicated, but it is more or less like this), you have to pay all your taxes in germany, even if you already paid in another country. There are bilateral taxation treaties covering this issue.

Like this one (in English, too):

http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.d...etz.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=8

zeke · Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:46 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):
I doubt she is working a flight home, considering she was arrested upon arrival of her flight into Germany. I'm not saying she will be, or should be terminated, all I am saying is that when a crew member is arrested while on company time, they are considered off duty until the matter is resolved to the carriers satisfaction.

One of my friends was arrested on arrival on a warrant for a breach of a violence order. A warrant, or an arrest does not mean someone is guilty, that is against natural justice. The police are just doing their job. In my fiends case, for around 10 days prior to the date of breach, and many days after, there was a long paper trail of him being in command of an airliner. The date in question he was around 12 hours flying time away from where in alleged breach occurred.

Immigration knew he was not in country, the police did not.

He was bailed, and had a court date around 2 months later. The judge processed 20 such claims in 1 hour, it is a common tactic in messy divorces to gain exclusive access to the children. Family courts dont normally give custody to parents with a documented history of violence.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):

I am left asking whether we even know for a fact her tax evasion is employment-related. Could be she tried to avoid paying taxes on property she still owns in Germany, or an inheritance, or any other one of hundreds of ways to commit tax evasion outside one's professional sphere.

All good questions, however they are not sensational, so i guess we will never get to know the truth.

Jamake1 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
The only Europe based crews that UA has is in LHR, and the article says that the person lived in the USA.

sUA also has a cabin crew base in FRA.

jetwet1 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:04 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
In my fiends case, for around 10 days prior to the date of breach, and many days after, there was a long paper trail of him being in command of an airliner. The date in question he was around 12 hours flying time away from where in alleged breach occurred.

I went through a similar thing a few years back, it was a pain, but 20 minutes of my lawyer brow beating the DA who couldn't understand that I was 2000 miles away and 30,000 ft up until the light bulb went off.

I too am interested in what triggered this if someone who can get behind the pay wall could keep us in the loop.

kl911 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):

What's funny is that the Abendblatt calls the crew member a stewardess. There I thought, stewards and stewardesses don't exist anymore (by name).

Sorry, but we still call it stewards and stewardesses in many parts of Europe, at least the general population does.

larshjort · Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:44 am

According to Tagblatt, she was fined 180 daily fines of 30 euro in June 2014. This amount is 5400 euro which somebody has paid to get her released.
To me it looks like it has been resolved and she is free to go.
http://www.tagblatt.de/Home/nachrich...ung-festgehalten-_arid,300592.html

/Lars

TheSonntag · Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:01 am

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 25):
According to Tagblatt, she was fined 180 daily fines of 30 euro in June 2014.

That is actually quite a lot for a first-time offense, this is noted in the german criminal record.

burnsie28 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:21 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):
But I can say, that my cousin is a Deputy for a county here in Oregon & his BK of 15 years ago, almost cost him that job before he even got it.

Which apparently would have been illegal and BK's only last on a credit report for 7-10 years depending on what was filed. If its still showing he should call the credit agency.

Unflug · Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:22 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):
I couldn't read the article due to a paywall, so I am left asking whether we even know for a fact her tax evasion is employment-related. Could be she tried to avoid paying taxes on property she still owns in Germany, or an inheritance, or any other one of hundreds of ways to commit tax evasion outside one's professional sphere.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
I could not read the article as well due to the paywall.Would be interesting to learn the Explanation why she was arrested for tax Evasion.

Most probably not work related, here is a better source (German):

http://www.presseportal.de/polizeipr...tewardess-muss-5470-00-euro-zahlen

Since a court in Ulm (city in southern Germany, no commercial airport) convicted her in June 2014, any relation to her current work at an US Airline is highly improbable.

PanHAM · Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:28 am

o it was actually the Penalty she did not pay and it says 180 days prison, alternately a fine of 180 days @ € 30,00 . Most European countris tie the fine to the personal net income.

I think she fared good with € 30,00.however, she has a criminal record now as she was fined more than 90 days. That could have additional consequences .for her.

Unflug · Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
o it was actually the Penalty she did not pay and it says 180 days prison, alternately a fine of 180 days @ € 30,00 . Most European countris tie the fine to the personal net income.

Correct. Usually the rate is 1/30 of the monthly net income, so at time of the conviction she would have had a (declared) net income of 900 €...

TheSonntag · Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:05 pm

BTW, if someone else paid it, this could actually be a criminal offense as well, because it is illegal to pay criminal fines for someone else.

§ 258 StGB: Strafvereitelung.

Unflug · Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
BTW, if someone else paid it, this could actually be a criminal offense as well, because it is illegal to pay criminal fines for someone else.

We do not know if the third person has only borrowed her the money. But anyway, the BGH (highest German court) has decided in 1990 that it is no criminal offense to pay someone elses criminal fees (7.11.1990).

bjorn14 · Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):

I thought only the US and Eritrea taxed income on their citizens outside their borders. If so then this is not an income tax related case.

larshjort · Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 32):

I thought only the US and Eritrea taxed income on their citizens outside their borders. If so then this is not an income tax related case.

It depends. As already mentioned, many Germany has a rule that if you are in Germany for more than 180 days a year you have to pay income tax. Denmark has similar rules. A Danish golf player living in Monaco got a hefty fine ~5 years ago because he spent too much time in Denmark.

/Lars

Unflug · Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:05 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 32):
I thought only the US and Eritrea taxed income on their citizens outside their borders. If so then this is not an income tax related case.

This is not true, it depends on a lot of factors.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 33):
It depends. As already mentioned, many Germany has a rule that if you are in Germany for more than 180 days a year you have to pay income tax. Denmark has similar rules. A Danish golf player living in Monaco got a hefty fine ~5 years ago because he spent too much time in Denmark.

Unfortunately it is much more complicated than that. The rules come from the double taxation agreements most countries have signed. The one between the US and Germany is this, for example:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/germany.pdf

As said before the case we are discussing does not seem to be related to income tax or double taxation rules.

MD11Engineer · Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:39 am

Well, some FR flight crews told the German authorities that they paid their tax in Ireland and the Irish authorities that they paid in Germany, but in the end paid no tax at all. This caused the German tax office to crack down on flight crews a few years ago, with some FR pilots having had to pay more than 100.000 Euros back tax.

Jan

PanHAM · Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:00 pm

Easy calculation, she is a German citizen and subject to Taxation in Germany if she stays here more than 180 days.

How man flights does a Crew member get p.a. ? How kong is the lay over at Destination? If arriving in the morning and departing next day 7 or 8 flights per month would bring her over the Maximum. A longer lay over even faster.

The most prominent victim of that law was boris Becker once. Although hard to believe that a Tennis pro with domicile in Monaco could manage to stay more than 180 days in Germany, the tex authority proved it. He should have asked babs to fly to Nice instead of him flying to Munich.

MD11Engineer · Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
How man flights does a Crew member get p.a. ? How kong is the lay over at Destination? If arriving in the morning and departing next day 7 or 8 flights per month would bring her over the Maximum. A longer lay over even faster.

Actually it counts for every started day.

Jan

PanHAM · Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:16 pm

Yes, and if you hit the ground at 23h45 the 15 minutes count as a day

Viscount724 · Fri May 01, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 15):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
Income tax is completely based upon the country, if you are a US Citizen, under FATCA, you are required to file a tax return even if you did not step foot in the U.S. once that year.

That was already the case well before FATCA.

Quite a few U.S. citizens permanently living outside the U.S. (assuming they also hold another citizenship) are renouncing their U.S. citizenship to escape the IRS. Noted a recent article that said fees for renouncing citizenship have recently been increased from around $500 to something like $2,000 due to the workload at U.S. embassies/consulates.

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