photopilot
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US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:29 pm

An interesting first-person article by a US Family Health Doctor who is fed-up with the health care system and fighting with Insurance companies for payment. She's decided to move to Canada and our single-payer system so she can concentrate on medicine, not paperwork. From the article, she's not the first to do so.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comme...us-doctor-is-moving-to-canada.html

Can it be that the US system has become bogged-down with bureaucracy and single-payer is the most efficient way to supply medical services.

Discuss.......
 
rfields5421
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting Photopilot (Thread starter):
Can it be that the US system has become bogged-down with bureaucracy and single-payer is the most efficient way to supply medical services.

The US system is designed by for profit insurance companies - to maximize their profits. They got a great victory in 2003 when they convinced Congress to force almost all senior citizens onto Medicare. They got another great victory when they got to write the ACA they way they wanted.

The insurance companies do everything they can to make claims processing a nightmare for healthcare providers.

And they will continue to be in charge as long as politicians argue over who in the US 'deserves' healthcare - and enjoy their large campaign donations.
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StarAC17
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
They got a great victory in 2003 when they convinced Congress to force almost all senior citizens onto Medicare.

IIRC doctors love treating people on Medicare, because it is public there is less headaches with the corporate bureaucracy of for profit private insurance companies.

Quoting Photopilot (Thread starter):
Can it be that the US system has become bogged-down with bureaucracy and single-payer is the most efficient way to supply medical services.

I just read this about an hour ago and what I got from this is that doctors want to be doctors and treat patients, they are not in it for the money. This doctor feels that her time is wasted fighting with insurance companies which fight tooth and nail to not pay claims because that is good for business.

Here you simply swipe someone's health card and the government pays the doctor and unlike the NHS in the UK the practice is 100% private.
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flymia
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:11 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
IIRC doctors love treating people on Medicare, because it is public there is less headaches with the corporate bureaucracy of for profit private insurance companies.

I would say yes, but IIRC medicare picks up about 80% of the bill, many have supplemental coverage for the remaining 20%. Also, there is a TON of fraud in the medicare business. At least there is a ton in South Florida. Its disgusting what doctors down here are doing, thankfully many are getting caught and going to jail for it.
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L-188
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
They got a great victory in 2003 when they convinced Congress to force almost all senior citizens onto Medicare. They got another great victory when they got to write the ACA they way they wanted.

Yup, and justifying in both cases why the program should be scrub.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
IIRC doctors love treating people on Medicare,

Not if it only pays part of the bill. That is why so many doctors won't take medicade.

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
but IIRC medicare picks up about 80% of the bill,

About 50% in Alaska
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photopilot
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:14 pm

What I found shocking was that the insurance companies won't pay anything of the bill until after the patient pays their co-pay or percentage. Why not?
Up here in Canada, where dental care is covered thru private insurance, my dentist submits the claim form directly and is paid by the insurance company (their share) whether I've paid her or not. Of course I always pay my share, but there is no refusal by the insurance company to pay if I don't.
 
DDR
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:57 pm

Things are not that bad in the U.S. Seriously. I go to the doctor, pay my 25.00 co-pay and everything is covered. And I can get in at anytime to see my doctor. No waiting list.

I will take the private health care system ANY DAY over a government provided health care system.
 
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zckls04
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):
Things are not that bad in the U.S. Seriously. I go to the doctor, pay my 25.00 co-pay and everything is covered. And I can get in at anytime to see my doctor. No waiting list.

I will take the private health care system ANY DAY over a government provided health care system.

I wouldn't. Private healthcare systems offer poorer outcomes at higher cost. Healthcare is not, and can never be a truly free market. Price transparency simply doesn't exist, nor usually does the opportunity to compare those prices.

I'll stand in line for a bit longer for a cheaper, more efficacious service.
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BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
I just read this about an hour ago and what I got from this is that doctors want to be doctors and treat patients, they are not in it for the money.

Then they'll all be perfectly happy to work for GS wages.

Or, for that matter, they'll care for people who need it whether they can pay or not, so the government might as well open the flood gates and let the business of healthcare be a business.
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rfields5421
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
IIRC doctors love treating people on Medicare, because it is public there is less headaches with the corporate bureaucracy of for profit private insurance companies.

Both my primary care doctor and my endocrinologist do not accept Medicare.

My wife is on Medicare - and we find that about 50% of doctors which accept new patients won't accept Medicare. Her primary care doctor will not accept new Medicare patients. My primary care doctor will require me to pay cash, or find a new doctor when I turn 65. The same with my endocrinologist.

Since we live in a RV full-time and travel across the country most of the year - with two trips back home for medical appointments each year - it isn't a big deal.

When we are in areas with lots of retirees - Florida, South Texas, Arizona - plenty of Medicare doctors. Other places like Dallas - not so many.

The principal reason doctors give is the low reimbursement rates - lower than most private insurance - and the large paperwork requirements for Medicare. Some doctors do not accept Medicare assignment - i.e. - they charge 'Medicare' rates - but you have to file the claim for reimbursement.
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N1120A
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:50 am

Primary care physicians make more money in Canada, along with a better quality of life and higher quality of practice. The only primary care physicians in the US that can make money are either semi-specialists like ER doctors, or invest in larger overall practice areas (like owning labs and x-ray units). The infrastructure required to bill insurance companies is just too expensive for the classic Doctor Bob.

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):
I will take the private health care system ANY DAY over a government provided health care system.

I won't.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):
I wouldn't. Private healthcare systems offer poorer outcomes at higher cost. Healthcare is not, and can never be a truly free market. Price transparency simply doesn't exist, nor usually does the opportunity to compare those prices.

Exactly.
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Revelation
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
IIRC doctors love treating people on Medicare, because it is public there is less headaches with the corporate bureaucracy of for profit private insurance companies.

I have a close friend who is a doctor and he says the downside of medicare patients are that payouts tend to be lower than private insurance and the way you submit claims is extremely low tech and frustrating compared to private insurance. As you say, though, once you get it submitted there are in general less hassles.

One thing people don't understand is that there is a HUGE industry that helps doctors deal with the zillions of different ways they have to submit claims and deal with any resulting issues. That huge industry adds no benefit, it is the pure overhead of having to deal with so many different entities with so many different procedures and standards.

That's one big thing single-payer solves.

Of course the insurance companies benefit from all of this so were the chief fear mongers during the Obamacare debates.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):
Private healthcare systems offer poorer outcomes at higher cost.

Yep. Tons of money going to pure overhead. It's not like, for instance, the auto industry, where you are trying to match fickle customer tastes and expectations.
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rfields5421
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
Of course the insurance companies benefit from all of this so were the chief fear mongers during the Obamacare debates.

One of the original parts of the proposal which became the ACA was for insurance companies to move into a single payment system. Doctors and other healthcare providers would be able to submit claims via a standard web system - and the individual insurance companies would be forced to accept that submission and make payment.

The insurance companies successfully convinced Congress not to include that requirement. Among their valid concerns was who would build and run such a system. They didn't want the government to run it, and didn't want big insurance companies like BCBS to run it. Another invalid in my opinion reason was that they needed to maintain control of their own processing priorities.

They also argued it would lead to 'government control' of healthcare.

As I said earlier - the insurance companies got almost everything they wanted in the ACA and almost nothing they didn't want.
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WarRI1
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
As I said earlier - the insurance companies got almost everything they wanted in the ACA and almost nothing they didn't want.

And that sums up our political system, controlled by money, corrupted by money which makes our congress an agent of the Healthcare Industry, and many others, and we all pay because of it.
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StarAC17
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 5):
Up here in Canada, where dental care is covered thru private insurance, my dentist submits the claim form directly and is paid by the insurance company (their share) whether I've paid her or not. Of course I always pay my share, but there is no refusal by the insurance company to pay if I don't.

Mine works differently but has the same result, the dentist submits the claim on my behalf and I pay them in full. Within a day or two the 80% that is covered by my employer is deposited in my bank account. I get travel points paying in full so I'm not complaining.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Then they'll all be perfectly happy to work for GS wages.

Or, for that matter, they'll care for people who need it whether they can pay or not, so the government might as well open the flood gates and let the business of healthcare be a business.

Not everyone does what they do for a living because of how much it pays and GP's here get paid very well to live a pretty good life up here.

Also Canada is a single payer system and the doctor gets paid by the government regardless of that person's ability to pay. We all up here pay for that through taxes and while our system needs work it gets far better results than the US at far less the cost.
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:49 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 14):
We all up here pay for that through taxes and while our system needs work it gets far better results than the US at far less the cost.

Indeed, a lot bigger slice of the pie goes towards actual health care in Canada rather than all the front-end marketing and back-end processing and political graft we end up paying for here in the US so the insurance companies and health care providers can provide "market differentiation" etc.

The main issue in Canada last time I looked is that a smaller percentage of GDP ends up going into health care than does in the US. If the same percent GDP went in, a lot of the issues like various issues with wait times would drop because actual health care delivery in Canada is so much more efficient than in the US. The thing is that the percentage is a political decision. The people as represented by their elected officials have chosen the level of funding. If my info is wrong, feel free to correct.

All in all, I'd much rather have Canada's system rather than the one in the US.

[Edited 2015-04-29 20:49:42]
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Maverick623
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):
Things are not that bad in the U.S. Seriously. I go to the doctor, pay my 25.00 co-pay and everything is covered.

Must be nice to have a full time job with a great benefits package.

Oh, and not have any serious medical issues like cancer or heart issues.
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DocLightning
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Primary care physicians make more money in Canada, along with a better quality of life and higher quality of practice. The only primary care physicians in the US that can make money are either semi-specialists like ER doctors, or invest in larger overall practice areas (like owning labs and x-ray units). The infrastructure required to bill insurance companies is just too expensive for the classic Doctor Bob.

Speaking as a primary care physician in the USA, let me make a few points:

1) I get paid very well. I'd love more money (who wouldn't?) but I live well and don't have to carefully budget my expenses.
2) I work in a group practice where they do the coding and billing and administration. That means I get to focus on being a doctor, even if I make a bit less than if I had my own practice. I work 9-5 and we share the after-hours duties.
3) I'm not in this for the money. The money is nice and it keeps me honest (I'm not bribeable). But the satisfaction is what keeps me going to work every day.
4) I went through hell and high water to do this job (really, residency is no fun with the 80-hour weeks and 30 hour shifts and the six days per week).
5) Canada's system is better for patients in many ways and the Canadian doctors I've met seem happy. Their docs don't have nearly the med school loans ours do, either. They make less but overall they actually wind up making more. I have not noticed a mass exodus to Canada. I work with two Canadian expat doctors.
6) Medicine will never be a free market. Free markets don't provide services to unconscious people who can't ask for (much less comparison shop for) those services. When someone is brought in down and unresponsive after a car crash, you deal with them and worry about the money later. Nobody ever buys and airplane ticket (or a widget) while unconscious after a car crash. With goods and services, you choose whether you want them. When you get a diagnosis of cancer (or Crohn's or whatever), you don't get that choice. It's get the service or die. No free market works under such

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Indeed, a lot bigger slice of the pie goes towards actual health care in Canada rather than all the front-end marketing and back-end processing and political graft we end up paying for here in the US so the insurance companies and health care providers can provide "market differentiation" etc.

It has its pluses and minuses. Our company lately has been pushing to improve our customer service by having more availability to our patients. Clinics are now open 9A-8P 7 days (people work normal hours, we just hired more people) and lo and behold...we are full all the time and our revenue is way up. This was driven by a desire to capture more market share in our community and differentiate our product from our competitors.

When people talk about the price of healthcare in the US, though, I don't think they see the full problem. The real cost problem with healthcare is the gouging. I saw one hospital bill where the hospital charged $79 for an alcohol pad used in the ER. That pad costs 1¢ at CVS or Rite Aid. 790,000% mark-up? Why is that legal? Why is a course of generic AUGMENTIN $80? Why is the Rx version of "NASACORT" $200 while the identical OTC is $10-20? Why does an appendectomy range from $10-50k when it's $2-3K in france?

The best way to curb the cost of healthcare is going to be to stop the exhorbitant price gouging.
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
Oh, and not have any serious medical issues like cancer or heart issues.

If you have those, they're your fault for liking processed food and red meat. You should foot the bill entirely on your own to take full personal responsibility. No private company should be on the hook for anyone's lifestyle.
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photopilot
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
Oh, and not have any serious medical issues like cancer or heart issues.

If you have those, they're your fault for liking processed food and red meat. You should foot the bill entirely on your own to take full personal responsibility. No private company should be on the hook for anyone's lifestyle.

Sorry, but is that an ignorant statement. Here in Toronto, we have a world-renowned hospital called Sick Kids. Walk thru that and look at all the children, most not even started school yet who have cancers of various types. Tell me it's their "lifestyle choice" that put them there.

Sure there are some "lifestyle choices" that put people at medical risk. Think of smoking and super-size me morbid obesity to name two.

But, if you're going to go down that road of "fault" then of course we shouldn't cover any person who twists/breaks their ankle while out jogging, any adventure-sport participant who breaks an arm or leg, any person who gets melanoma (their fault for not wearing enough sunscreen) etc, etc, etc.......

Oh, and as someone who has survived open-heart surgery I resent your implication that any heart issues are my own fault. You'd have been better off to keep your mouth shut and have us think you ignorant rather than open your mouth and confirm it.
 
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PITingres
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:07 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If you have those, they're your fault for liking processed food and red meat.

Bullsh!t.

Cancer has no proven (or even hinted-at) links to lifestyle. There are any number of serious circulatory conditions that are brought on by heredity or viruses, and certainly there is again not much of a proven link to processed food (whatever that is supposed to mean) or red meat.

If you had said smoking, I might have had a little sympathy -- but again, there are plenty of cancers that have no relation to smoking.

So, next time you need medical care, I trust you'll be OK with paying in full, because it was obviously your own fault? (whatever the condition might be?)
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L-188
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
That pad costs 1¢ at CVS or Rite Aid. 790,000% mark-up? Why is that legal? Why is a course of generic AUGMENTIN $80? Why is the Rx version of "NASACORT" $200 while the identical OTC is $10-20?

And that right there is a big part of the real problem
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wingman
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
As I said earlier - the insurance companies got almost everything they wanted in the ACA and almost nothing they didn't want.

This is the beauty of what Obama accomplished, he got something on the board that no one else in recent history has come close to doing. He's started to solve one half of the equation, getting more people covered and paying. In any analysis of the ACA you'll find general consensus that getting the insurance industry to go single payer would've doomed healthcare reform from the start. There was no way to co-opt both sides of the coin.

What comes next is the real trick, which party (maybe both??) will have the balls and the sheer willpower to tackle the cost side of the issue. To many illiterates in tis country, fixing this part of the problem is tantamount to Communism. But when you look at Canada's example and you read the ever lucid posts by people like Doc, you see that we're on the right path. The truth is Doc's medical group shouldn't have a billing and coding department, all that paperwork, billing, and payment should be happening with three pokes of the finger on his iPad.

And I still love that old Atlantic article that suggested that consumers of healthcare get more involved in what they pay for, just like buying cars, televisions or washing machines. One solution the writer pinpointed was to make everyone pay some amount of money up front and out of pocket before universal coverage kicked in. Family of four and household income is $150K or higher? Pay $5000 per year out of pocket and every dollar afterward would be covered..100%. Not a bad way to get people involved in their own healthcare. I bet paying $2000 for artery declogger out of pocket would cut cheeseburger consumption by 60%.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):
And I can get in at anytime to see my doctor. No waiting list.

I will take the private health care system ANY DAY over a government provided health care system.

I don't know how bad it is in Germany, but in Norway and in New Zealand I can see my doctor without being on a waiting list. In Norway I send in a text, I get a time back within seconds, in NZ I call up and make an appointment, I've never failed to get one same day in either country.
 
Ken777
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
They got a great victory in 2003 when they convinced Congress to force almost all senior citizens onto Medicare.

And seniors got a great victory when they all had care under Medicare. Far better than the private insurance company rip off prices.

Quoting flymia (Reply 3):
Also, there is a TON of fraud in the medicare business.

And can you name a industry where there is no fraud?

There is a need to continually increase efforts to catch fraud. Something as simple as police driving by DMEs offices to ensure there really is a DME operating out of the office. Spot a scam and the cop gets a financial reward.. That can address one major area of fraud.

Computer systems can also identify fraud. How many 15 minute appointments can a Doctor bill for in a 24 hour period?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
Yup, and justifying in both cases why the program should be scrub.

Shut them down and watch how fast the US falls in it's position of international standards. Last I was told (by my Dr) the US health was around 27th in performance. And you want to make it worse?

And what are you going to put in their place? The GOP dries about Medicare and Medicaid, but have yet to deliver the first intelligent suggestion for a replacement.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
Not if it only pays part of the bill.

You are missing the reality that private insurance only pays part. Both Medicare and private insurance discounts the "published fees" and, from looking at my Medicare EOBs, the Medicare discount is reasonably close to the 30%+ discounts the private insurance companies charge.

With my Medicare I also decided to get supplemental policies for the wife and myself. That picks up the gaps so I pay zip for Dr visits, tests and hospital trips. Not totally cheap, but well worth it. Sort of like a friend who had $60K+ bills for a defib inserted in his chest. He paid ZIP because he also has that supplemental. Beats the hell out of how private insurance patients get treated.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
That is why so many doctors won't take medicade

Start with greed.

I had private insurance that cost the earth and when I went to MD Anderson in Houston for a second opinion on a cancer Dx they (at the last minute) told me that they didn't take my insurance and I would need to take $14,300.00 with me for the first appointment.

Now some doctors limit Medicare patients and I remember a Bone Doc who would simply fix poor people in need without worrying about charging. Sort of like reputable attorneys performing pro bono from time to time,

If a Doc has a total ban on public patients then I believe that is their right (pathetic ethics, but their right) and the only resigns I would have would be to blacklist them for research dollars. Same with a hospital. They take public patients or no research funding.

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):
I go to the doctor, pay my 25.00 co-pay and everything is covered.

Because I have a supplemental policy I go to the Dr and don't even have to pay that co-pay.

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):

I will take the private health care system ANY DAY over a government provided health care system.

And I have been far happier with Medicare + Private Supplemental insurance than I was with my private insurance company. Same doctors, same hospitals, etc.
 
bhill
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:02 pm

This is all about smoke and mirrors...here is why...

We are NEVER told or allowed to see what those "negotiated/contract" prices are! So how in the hell can anyone say..80% of a cost when you do not know what the true cost is? Much less not know if you are getting screwed if you pay cash; would YOU buy a car that way? I am currently reading "America's Bitter Pill" by Steve Brill...what an eye opener... I too would like to know how Pharma gets away with the pricing they charge...but I have a hunch I know why the same meds in Canada and elsewhere are cheaper; might we suckers in the US be subsidizing the cost?
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DocLightning
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:57 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 19):
Sorry, but is that an ignorant statement.
Quoting PITingres (Reply 20):
Bullsh!t.

Aaron747 was being sarcastic.

That has been the standard Conservative argument. "You can't force me to buy insurance I'm not going to use!"

That implies that you get to choose when you are going to use it. That implies that all health problems are self-inflicted.
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casinterest
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Fri May 01, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
That implies that you get to choose when you are going to use it. That implies that all health problems are self-inflicted.

The real argument is. " , I'll never use it until I really need it. Then I will be pissed that it costs so much to get what I personally deserve.. Which is more than all those other freeloaders here."
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DocLightning
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 27):
The real argument is. " , I'll never use it until I really need it. Then I will be pissed that it costs so much to get what I personally deserve.. Which is more than all those other freeloaders here."

I always find it so amazing how those who are against universal healthcare have no problem getting healthcare when they need it. They never stop to think: "wouldn't it suck if I couldn't do this?"

The one I really love is when the GOP keeps trying to kill federally-subsidized vaccine programs.

They don't understand. You want to vaccinate every human being, yes even illegal immigrants. Measles doesn't care about your citizenship or immigration status. If you don't, you yourself might get sick even if you're vaccinated.
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BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 14):
Not everyone does what they do for a living because of how much it pays

Then it's kind of a self solving problem isn't it? Throw the gates open and let healthcare be a free market where everyone seeks to maximize what they want. For profit actors can do their business and doctors who just want to take care of people can structure their practices how they like.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 19):
Oh, and as someone who has survived open-heart surgery I resent your implication that any heart issues are my own fault.

Sounds pricey. So here's the fundamental issue: Suppose we lived in the same country and I pay my taxes, some of which go to funding an expensive surgery for you. What return am I getting on that investment? Why do I need you to have open heart surgery? How does it hurt me if you don't have surgery?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
I always find it so amazing how those who are against universal healthcare have no problem getting healthcare when they need it. They never stop to think: "wouldn't it suck if I couldn't do this?"

I spend quite a bit of time thinking about how much it sucks to not have things I can't afford.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Airstud
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
If you don't, you yourself might get sick even if you're vaccinated.

  

I get that herd immunity is important because there are immuno-compromised kids who can't be vaccinated, but...

Someone who is vaccinated?!?! Then how is there any point to the vaccines?

(Note: I am not an anti-vaxxer; I just want the Doc to explain that...)
Pancakes are delicious.
 
Mir
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
So here's the fundamental issue: Suppose we lived in the same country and I pay my taxes, some of which go to funding an expensive surgery for you. What return am I getting on that investment?

Ideally, you should be getting absolutely no return on your investment in insurance. It's not like other commodities.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 30):
I get that herd immunity is important because there are immuno-compromised kids who can't be vaccinated, but...

Someone who is vaccinated?!?! Then how is there any point to the vaccines?

Because vaccines, while being very good, are not 100% effective.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JJJ
Posts: 3526
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
Ideally, you should be getting absolutely no return on your investment in insurance.

Those in the insurance sector will tell you peace of mind is that return.
 
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Siren
Posts: 775
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Sounds pricey. So here's the fundamental issue: Suppose we lived in the same country and I pay my taxes, some of which go to funding an expensive surgery for you. What return am I getting on that investment? Why do I need you to have open heart surgery? How does it hurt me if you don't have surgery?

The fundamental issue is simple: We all pay, and we are all covered. Suppose I have an expensive surgery covered by tax dollars (wish I had, every expensive surgery I've had has been an insurance nightmare). My tax dollars also funded it. The return you get on the investment is a healthier and happier society, which in turn increases productivity and GDP, and has a net positive impact on the economy. This improves your chances paying your taxes. And make no mistake - one day, you may have the need for an expensive surgery. Although extremely unlikely, a meteor could land on your house and seriously injure you. You never know when and if you will need health services, which is why it is imperative that everybody receives coverage.

It's risk sharing - you're paying for the common good of society. That's your ROI.

As it pertains to private insurance: When my spinal cord went kaput, I had to go through hell getting each and every procedure approved. Because I initially didn't have my insurance information with me upon my initial ER visit, everything was billed to me directly, and later reimbursed. The reimbursement took months - and I didn't get a nice simple single bill. I received something like 15 different bills, from different specialists, doctors, etc. There was a separate MRI bill, separate bill for analysis of the MRI, separate bill for the bloodwork, and some of the prices were utterly exorbitant - and frankly have NO bearing on the actual price.

The US health system is based on fictional numbers. It does not cost $150 for a shot of morphine. It does not cost $1500 for an MRI analysis. It does not cost $200 for an IV - so why am I getting these bills? AND the real kicker - when reimbursed (I never paid them directly, the insurance company did) - the total amount I was billed when it was assumed I was a cash customer was well over $150,000. The insurance company paid out around $30,000ish, and stated I was not responsible for the remaining $120,000. It's a frakked system wherein customers are utterly scammed.

I'll say it again: it is a scam. It's fraudulent. $79 for an alcohol prep pad? That's a fictional number that has no bearing on the actual cost of service. $150 for a morphine shot? Again, it's a fraudulent number. And this massive fraud is perpetuated wholesale by the for-profit hospital industry.

A single payer system is the one that makes the most sense - and there's an easy way to do it in the USA - simply extend Medicare enrollment to every single citizen or permanent resident. This removes the fraud from system, and huge amounts of overhead. The USA spends more money by far, as a percentage of GDP for healthcare than any other country on earth, yet ranks in the low 20s and high 30s when it comes to positive health care outcomes.

Many complain that in a government paid system, healthcare would be rationed. It is already rationed in the United States - by the ability to pay for services rendered. And the healthcare nightmare didn't end after the ER - they authorized precious little rehab, and getting them to cover a wheelchair was nightmarish - I ended up having to cover over a thousand dollars out of pocket because according to their policies, they only covered aluminum frame chairs, and I wanted a titanium one. Cost for an aluminum chair they were willing to cover: $2,700. My titanium one: $3,400. My cost to pick up the difference? $1,500ish. And, even getting that was tough - I had to fight it out, hours and hours on hold talking with one representative or another, transferred between claim agent to claim agent.

And I have to deal with the insurance company on regular things now, given my medical status - they'll only cover 3 catheters a day (90 per month). I have to use 6 or 7. The rest of the cost is borne out of pocket by me. If my chair is damaged, god forbid, I'll have to have another fight with the insurance company - and they say that the chair is supposed to last 7 years. We'll see - I haven't heard of many folks getting 7 years out of titanium z-frame chairs - the frame's metal fatigue issues tend to manifest around the 3-4 year mark for an active user, requiring a new chair. I'm going into year 3 with my chair, and it is getting quite rickety. And they make no provisions for allowing a backup. I had to track down and buy a cheap aluminum backup, just in case - again, entirely out of pocket.

The cost to have my car converted over to hand controls - that was an out of pocket expense, despite being prescribed by a medical doctor. As a result of that, I'm $2,900 poorer. Home modifications? Hah, they laughed at that one. This stuff should ALL be covered... and in many developed countries, it is covered. And it is done so at a fraction of the overall cost to collective society.

The American system of healthcare is simple: Don't get sick. If you get sick, die quickly. Unless you have money.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3714
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
The main issue in Canada last time I looked is that a smaller percentage of GDP ends up going into health care than does in the US. If the same percent GDP went in, a lot of the issues like various issues with wait times would drop because actual health care delivery in Canada is so much more efficient than in the US.

That is something that you want to minimize and increasing costs to the Canadian system are inevitable because of the baby boomers retiring. Most of the issues up here are because the healthcare system doesn't get the resources it needs and those resources have been misused, our focus should be on making the system as efficient as possible while keeping what works intact.

Adding to that there has to be a real debate up here on whether we move to a two-tier system like the UK and Australia or raise taxes to fund and expand the system. This allows healthy young and people and those that can afford to to be able to jump the queue in a private system.

The criticism of this is that doctors will simply take who pays more which can't be done for an effective health care system but there has to be some regulation on it. In the UK at least doctors have to put in a set amount of time in the public system before they can move to a private practice.


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Suppose we lived in the same country and I pay my taxes, some of which go to funding an expensive surgery for you. What return am I getting on that investment? Why do I need you to have open heart surgery? How does it hurt me if you don't have surgery?

If you ran a business and your top sales guy and brought in millions for you and he got sick, you get helped because the taxpayer picks up the tab for that surgery and he can be back being productive sooner than later. If he doesn't have that surgery he might die and it will be a huge burden to replace him and you perhaps lose someone you have built a friendship with.

Adding to the business costs in Canada you do not have to cover full health insurance for your employees which makes it easier for a business owner to manage costs as you know what your taxes are going to be. Most employers offer an extended health plan which covers things like prescription drugs, dental, optometry etc but those things are relatively cheap compared to a hospital visit which is government paid.

That is a simple example but in reality the single payer system's investment is that if you need the same surgery you also get it without being asked to fork over a dime.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
The US health system is based on fictional numbers. It does not cost $150 for a shot of morphine. It does not cost $1500 for an MRI analysis. It does not cost $200 for an IV - so why am I getting these bills? AND the real kicker - when reimbursed (I never paid them directly, the insurance company did) - the total amount I was billed when it was assumed I was a cash customer was well over $150,000. The insurance company paid out around $30,000ish, and stated I was not responsible for the remaining $120,000. It's a frakked system wherein customers are utterly scammed.

I'll say it again: it is a scam. It's fraudulent. $79 for an alcohol prep pad? That's a fictional number that has no bearing on the actual cost of service. $150 for a morphine shot? Again, it's a fraudulent number. And this massive fraud is perpetuated wholesale by the for-profit hospital industry.

  

If you have ever seen Micheal Moore's movies Sicko which comments on the US health care system (from his point of view) he goes to Cuba with 9/11 cleanup workers whom have health issues and the gouging is looked at where one woman has to pay something like $40 for a puffer where in Cuba the exact same thing costs a nickel. He also goes to the UK and any prescription medication costs 7 pounds on the NHS.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 30):
I get that herd immunity is important because there are immuno-compromised kids who can't be vaccinated, but...

Someone who is vaccinated?!?! Then how is there any point to the vaccines?

Measles vaccine is 98% effective at preventing disease. It is 90% transmissible.

So you have a room of 1,000 vaccinated people and ten unvaccinated people. You walk a measles case in there.

9 unvaccinated people get sick. 20 vaccinated people get sick.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12638
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
Cost for an aluminum chair they were willing to cover: $2,700. My titanium one: $3,400. My cost to pick up the difference? $1,500ish. And, even getting that was tough - I had to fight it out, hours and hours on hold talking with one representative or another, transferred between claim agent to claim agent.

You should ask for cabon fibre next time, my brother in laws, brother in law is a 110kg Samoan, he has one like this, he gives it hell, bounces down stairs rides it hard and fast, he's hugely strong and can't break it, he was going through alloy chairs every couple of years.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
The cost to have my car converted over to hand controls - that was an out of pocket expense, despite being prescribed by a medical doctor. As a result of that, I'm $2,900 poorer. Home modifications? Hah, they laughed at that one. This stuff should ALL be covered... and in many developed countries, it is covered. And it is done so at a fraction of the overall cost to collective society.

In NZ and in Norway this is covered by the state, they'll also help out with home modifications.

Sux to be an American when healthcare is taken into account.
 
rwessel
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
Measles vaccine is 98% effective at preventing disease. It is 90% transmissible.

So you have a room of 1,000 vaccinated people and ten unvaccinated people. You walk a measles case in there.

9 unvaccinated people get sick. 20 vaccinated people get sick.

And under the same circumstances with no vaccinations, you'd have *900* people getting sick. That massive reduction in the reproduction rate (the "R0" in the lingo), is what stops really these highly infectious diseases in their tracks. That's herd immunity. Your personal protection is a (very) nice benefit, but the secondary one.

A minor point: your numbers should be 9 and 18 (not 9 and 20).
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4719
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
What return am I getting on that investment?

Ah, yes, putting money above human life. Nothing like being a sociopath.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):

I spend quite a bit of time thinking about how much it sucks to not have things I can't afford.

If you spent a little more time being grateful for what you do have, you wouldn't be so bitter.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 30):

Someone who is vaccinated?!?! Then how is there any point to the vaccines?

An analogy:

Seat belts, when properly worn, don't always save lives in a car crash. What's the point of them?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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DocLightning
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 37):
And under the same circumstances with no vaccinations, you'd have *900* people getting sick. That massive reduction in the reproduction rate (the "R0" in the lingo), is what stops really these highly infectious diseases in their tracks. That's herd immunity. Your personal protection is a (very) nice benefit, but the secondary one.

A minor point: your numbers should be 9 and 18 (not 9 and 20).

Derp. I forgot the 90% transmission rate, didn't I?

Point is that a high vaccination rate stops the outbreak quickly because only 2% of people are susceptible. Low vaccination rate and the outbreak spreads quickly and now even vaccinated people are at risk, even if it's 98% lower than unvaccinated.

This is why even in countries like India there was a push to eliminate polio. Even vaccinated rich kids could get it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Ken777
Posts: 9999
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Sounds pricey.

Medicine today is pricey. ObamaCare may continue to hold down the inflation rate, but it is still way too high and you can thank cost shifting for that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
What return am I getting on that investment?

You are getting all that infrastructure set in place in case you need it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Why do I need you to have open heart surgery?

That infrastructure you might need some day needs to be active on a day by day basis. Even with all your education you cannot predict what specialists you will need in the future, what new drugs and hospital infrastructure you will need or even how soon you will need them. Like I said before, one drunk driver can totally change your life - and your opinions on national health,

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):

I spend quite a bit of time thinking about how much it sucks to not have things I can't afford.

We will all mark our calendars to find a spot to shed a tear from you. You think you have it bad, try thinking about those on a minimum wage that delivers a smaller and smaller buying power every year because of inflation.

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
Ideally, you should be getting absolutely no return on your investment in insurance.

The luckier you are the less you will get.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
It does not cost $150 for a shot of morphine.

One of the great things about a national health program, and charging standards, is that fees can be set at reasonable levels. That $150 show is due in part to cost shifting, part to jack prices up so they can "discount" then to the insurance companies and part for greed. When I had neck surgery for cancer in 06 at Methodist in Houston the 2 shots I received were $8 each. Surprised the hell out of me!

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
so why am I getting these bills?

Your first bill will normally be the full retail pricing. Then the insurance company will change the charges based anther contract with the hospital and send you an EOB. That EOB will let you know what you owe, if anything. If the hospital pushes for more then turn it back to the insurance company or, if no joy there, give it to a lawyer.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
The insurance company paid out around $30,000ish, and stated I was not responsible for the remaining $120,000. It's a frakked system wherein customers are utterly scammed.

Some providers sill send out bills in hopes you are confused enough to pay them. Look at the bill and see what is due for payment now. On the bills sent before insurance has responded you will normally see $0 due now.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
simply extend Medicare enrollment to every single citizen or permanent resident.

And let's not forget the illegals. Give them a SS number and make them pay at a level that demonstrates that they are supporting their families. There is no reason to take 11 or 12 million people off the FICA rolls - all that does is increases cost shifting.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 34):
increasing costs to the Canadian system are inevitable because of the baby boomers retiring.

And that is the time to get pro-active in the area of health care. Catch problems when they are the cheapest to address.
 
photopilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
So here's the fundamental issue: Suppose we lived in the same country and I pay my taxes, some of which go to funding an expensive surgery for you. What return am I getting on that investment? Why do I need you to have open heart surgery? How does it hurt me if you don't have surgery?

First off, why should I give a damn about you getting a "return" on my surgery and likewise I really don't give a damn what your thoughts might be for MY surgery.

It's called HEALTH INSURANCE, and just like car insurance, you pay your premium (either directly or thru tax dollars) and if you have a claim, or don't have a claim, you still pay your premium.

Would you expect a return on your investment if I had a car accident and claimed on my car insurance?
Would you NEED to have MY car fixed if I had a car accident and claimed on my car insurance?
Would it "hurt you" if I didn't have my car repaired? Who the frick cares? It's MY car or MY health.

Car Insurance is mandatory in every single State in the USA, though the minimum amounts vary. So how in any way is this different than mandatory health insurance, at least at a minimum level? I see stupid people fighting tooth and nail against the ACA and mandatory health insurance, but don't hear a peep of protest about car insurance. How do you justify that hypocrisy of that position?

And how again is health payments made thru a Government single-payer system any different than say taxes used for kids schooling. I am forced to pay school taxes even though I chose not to have children. Why are my tax dollars used to support your brats? The answer is simple..... It's for the greater good of society overall. Just like having health insurance is good for the country overall.

You clearly have no real concept of living in an advanced society and the inherent responsibilities each of us has to the other in advanced societies thru taxation and good Gov't. That's truly sad you choose to live that way.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Sun May 03, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
Ideally, you should be getting absolutely no return on your investment in insurance. It's not like other commodities.

Which is just basically paying out of pocket.

And let's not forget that Obamacare is predicated on getting younger, healthier people to pay in and cover everyone else so it's is already deviating from your ideal by design.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
The fundamental issue is simple: We all pay, and we are all covered.

I'm already covered.

Quoting Siren (Reply 33):
The return you get on the investment is a healthier and happier society, which in turn increases productivity and GDP, and has a net positive impact on the economy.

I don't care about the health of "society." I care that certain people are healthy, and will pay a price to maintain that, but not everyone.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 34):
If you ran a business and your top sales guy and brought in millions for you and he got sick, you get helped because the taxpayer picks up the tab for that surgery and he can be back being productive sooner than later. If he doesn't have that surgery he might die and it will be a huge burden to replace him and you perhaps lose someone you have built a friendship with.

That is an entirely different proposition. I'm talking about random person whom I've never met and only share citizenship with.

The case you present makes perfect sense: I need the employee to do work and want to offer competitive compensation to keep him from leaving, so I have a distinct incentive to provide medical coverage. Hence, employer provided insurance, essentially the same system we have now. Moving it to a taxpayer funded system is essentially a corporate subsidy.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
Ah, yes, putting money above human life. Nothing like being a sociopath.

Depends on whose life you're talking about.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
If you spent a little more time being grateful for what you do have, you wouldn't be so bitter.

If I spent a little more time being grateful for what I have, I'd have less time to be productive.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
You are getting all that infrastructure set in place in case you need it.

That assumes that all of it is needed. If the infrastructure goes away, then it wasn't really needed in the first place. If costs make a step change such that many people cannot afford it anymore, then all of those providers don't need to stay in business.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
We will all mark our calendars to find a spot to shed a tear from you. You think you have it bad, try thinking about those on a minimum wage that delivers a smaller and smaller buying power every year because of inflation.

I'm not saying I have it bad. I have it pretty good and I put a lot of time, money and effort into making sure of that, it didn't just fall out that way.

But there are things I can't afford and would like to, but my solution is not to invent legislative schemes to get someone else to fund it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
One of the great things about a national health program, and charging standards, is that fees can be set at reasonable levels.

Reasonable for whom? You're intentionally setting up a monopoly to screw providers.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 41):
First off, why should I give a damn about you getting a "return" on my surgery and likewise I really don't give a damn what your thoughts might be for MY surgery.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of you blatantly expecting everyone to contribute to keeping you breathing while you provide them nothing. And then to write something like the above where you make it sound like they owe it to you for the privilege of sharing the planet with you? It just reinforces why I don't want anything to do with single payer healthcare.

Open the floodgates, make it a free market.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 41):
It's called HEALTH INSURANCE, and just like car insurance, you pay your premium (either directly or thru tax dollars) and if you have a claim, or don't have a claim, you still pay your premium.

No, it's a tax. That's different.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Just pointing out the hypocrisy of you blatantly expecting everyone to contribute to keeping you breathing while you provide them nothing.

By virtue of him continuing to be alive, he will be able to continue to work and earn money and pay taxes which will then go to fund your critical surgery should you ever need it. That's not nothing.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):

You're living in society bud. You've benefited from society, you pay back to society. Move to your own island if you don't like it
 
photopilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
I don't care about the health of "society." I care that certain people are healthy, and will pay a price to maintain that, but not everyone.

WOW, the god complex!!! Who elected you to decide who lives and who dies?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
I'm talking about random person whom I've never met and only share citizenship with.

Sure, and the complete stranger who's life is saved by emergency surgery just might go on to discover the cure for cancer, or make fusion work, etc. You don't know but playing god on who lives and who dies in your society is a detriment to all.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 10250
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 2:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
The one I really love is when the GOP keeps trying to kill federally-subsidized vaccine programs.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
They don't understand. You want to vaccinate every human being, yes even illegal immigrants. Measles doesn't care about your citizenship or immigration status. If you don't, you yourself might get sick even if you're vaccinated

You pegged it here doc. Vaccinations are one area were we are truly at the mercy of societies empathy of an issue and the resolve to solve it through selfless rather than selfish acts
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
You're living in society bud.

No I don't. I live among millions of other individuals, each of whom has their own opinions and priorities and are connected or not connected to me in a variety of ways.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 45):
WOW, the god complex!!! Who elected you to decide who lives and who dies?

It's not deciding who lives and who dies. It's deciding how much one wants to contribute to making someone have the best chance to live e.g. members of my immediate family take priority over random person halfway across the country. That said, random person is family to someone else who more than likely has no interest in me.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 45):
Sure, and the complete stranger who's life is saved by emergency surgery just might go on to discover the cure for cancer, or make fusion work, etc.

Anyone with a great chance of doing that probably has an employer who sees it as a good investment to make sure they're taken care of.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11173
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 47):
No I don't. I live among millions of other individuals, each of whom has their own opinions and priorities and are connected or not connected to me in a variety of ways.

Sociopathy is not valid reasoning, no matter how you cloak the matter in pseudologic.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
If I spent a little more time being grateful for what I have, I'd have less time to be productive.

Rich irony there with 16,000+ posts logged. You're as guilty as the rest of us  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Reasonable for whom? You're intentionally setting up a monopoly to screw providers.

Most of the developed world has national schemes that work well, have better outcomes than US indicators, and at lower cost, with no barriers to choice of facility or provider. And the providers don't get screwed either. Removes the middle man of private insurance with all its wasteful and meddling overhead.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12638
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 6:18 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
And let's not forget that Obamacare is predicated on getting younger, healthier people to pay in and cover everyone else so it's is already deviating from your ideal by design.

And those very same younger healthier people are going to be the older unhealthy people of the future, who will have their care paid for by, wait for it, the younger healther people of tomorrow.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
I don't care about the health of "society." I care that certain people are healthy, and will pay a price to maintain that, but not everyone.

That's not how a fair and equitable society works. You can't pick who is worth paying for and who isn't.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
I'm talking about random person whom I've never met and only share citizenship with.

If you have full govt funded medical, that person would also be paying for you. Also your medical insurance premium doesn't just pay for you but pays for everyone else using the same provider, you must resent that as well. Your premiums are being used to treat others. If you don't have an issue with that then you shouldn't have an issue with a govt funded system.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
No, it's a tax. That's different.

Ok then it's like vehicle registration costs and fuel surcharges. Everyone who operates a vehicle pays and society as a whole benefits.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 47):
No I don't. I live among millions of other individuals, each of whom has their own opinions and priorities and are connected or not connected to me in a variety of ways.

And all those individuals group together and form a society, like it or not that's how it works.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 48):
Removes the middle man of private insurance with all its wasteful and meddling overhead.

Most countries with socialised medical also have private providers for those like BMI who believe they are more important than the rest of us.

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