BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 48):
Sociopathy is not valid reasoning, no matter how you cloak the matter in pseudologic.

It's not sociopathy, it's just the basic idea that the more important something is to someone, the more they'll be willing to pay for it. In a sound economic system, the people to whom something matters should be the ones to provide the funding.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
And those very same younger healthier people are going to be the older unhealthy people of the future, who will have their care paid for by, wait for it, the younger healther people of tomorrow

In that case you're setting up a sucking vortex like Social Security.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
That's not how a fair and equitable society works.

I have no pretense that society is, or should be, fair and equitable. An equitable society doesn't work at all, because the individuals who make up "society" will recognize it for the scam that it is.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
You can't pick who is worth paying for and who isn't.

Sure you can. It's done now. Do you think the CEO of a company gets the same insurance package as the janitor?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
If you have full govt funded medical, that person would also be paying for you.

I have insurance so I don't need any of that.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
Also your medical insurance premium doesn't just pay for you but pays for everyone else using the same provider, you must resent that as well.

Not at all. I, or my employer, can switch providers whenever to one that suits them better. You can't do that with single payer.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
Ok then it's like vehicle registration costs and fuel surcharges. Everyone who operates a vehicle pays and society as a whole benefits.

That's the problem. Using fuel taxes and registration fees to fund road construction is a horribly broken system.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
And all those individuals group together and form a society, like it or not that's how it works.

Society has no standing to impose their will on an individual unless not doing so results in someone's rights being violated.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
Most countries with socialised medical also have private providers for those like BMI who believe they are more important than the rest of us.

It's not a matter of believing they are more important. It's paying extra to be actually more important.
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Siren
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 7:59 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):
You should ask for cabon fibre next time

Titanium chair: $3500ish. Carbon fiber: $8500. That's worth more than my car. I'd LOVE to have a Panthera X (the predominant carbon fiber chair on the US market) - I've had the chance to roll around in a demo unit. The thing weighs half of what my titanium one does, and felt twice as rigid. I'm a believer, but there's no way my insurance company will ever pay for it. If I get it, it's out of my pocket - because I have the misfortune of being an American.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
I don't care about the health of "society." I care that certain people are healthy, and will pay a price to maintain that, but not everyone.

So, according to your world view, if I am to extrapolate this correctly, you are saying that some lives are more valuable than others. That the current system of rationing care in the United States is the correct one - rationed by ability to pay for services.

This view, unfortunately, ignores the broader implications - people who don't receive treatment sometimes end up disabled as a result of a lack of early intervention, and draw on Social Security Disability - and end up on Medicare. Either way, you're paying for them...

Under your system of choice, care costs more because of this - by ignoring medical issues until they are critical, the cost to correct them rises dramatically, and it often results in taking an otherwise productive member of the economy out of it entirely, with negative consequences on a macroeconomic scale. We see this when looking at the United States healthcare numbers - the highest expenses as a percentage of GDP, with outcomes vastly worse than the rest of the developed world.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Just pointing out the hypocrisy of you blatantly expecting everyone to contribute to keeping you breathing while you provide them nothing. And then to write something like the above where you make it sound like they owe it to you for the privilege of sharing the planet with you? It just reinforces why I don't want anything to do with single payer healthcare.

Open the floodgates, make it a free market.

Your opinions are not based on real world data or observations - quite the contrary. They're based on dogma. If statistics, outcomes, and actual data were the sources of your opinions, then your opinions would support universal healthcare funded by taxes. There is only one correct opinion when the data and evidence is weighed and evaluated.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 48):
Most of the developed world has national schemes that work well, have better outcomes than US indicators, and at lower cost, with no barriers to choice of facility or provider. And the providers don't get screwed either. Removes the middle man of private insurance with all its wasteful and meddling overhead.

Exactly. The facts are indisputable, and support only one conclusion - Universal single payer healthcare is a superior method of delivering healthcare to people. Period. End of discussion. Any further discussion advocating free market solutions has no basis in reality or facts.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
It's not sociopathy, it's just the basic idea that the more important something is to someone, the more they'll be willing to pay for it. In a sound economic system, the people to whom something matters should be the ones to provide the funding.

In a sound economic system, healthcare is a human right, just as is access to potable water, food, and safe shelter. Failing these, we're talking economic feudalism - that seems to be what you advocate.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
I have no pretense that society is, or should be, fair and equitable. An equitable society doesn't work at all, because the individuals who make up "society" will recognize it for the scam that it is.

So, what should society be? Unfair, inequitable? Keep the proletariat a proletariat? The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor? No doubt somebody will pipe in and say that being poor is a choice, but, that's pure dogma and is unsupported by any facts.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
I have insurance so I don't need any of that.

You got yours, that's all that matters. Until one day your spinal cord goes kaput, and you're facing $5,000 in out of pocket costs for your deductibles and nonsense. But I'm going to guess that doesn't matter to someone like you because you probably have $5,000 that you can sneeze out at the drop of a dime. Unfortunately, for the majority of Americans, a $5,000 expense is catastrophic - they don't have the savings. Of course, that's the fault of the idiot who doesn't have the money. They should have saved it. Except for the fact that wages, adjusted for inflation, have dropped for the lower 60% of the United States citizens continuously for the last 40 years, and a country that once had a thriving middle class now has a middle class that is a quarter of the size it once was.

The Great Recession wiped out the savings of millions of diligent, hard working, disciplined people who, through no fault of their own, lost their livelihoods forever because they were outsourced to other countries. The only jobs available in much of the country are for big conglomerates like Walmart, McDonalds, and such - and they pay poverty wages. The government indirectly subsidizes these companies because their employees are paid so little that they qualify for public assistance (Food stamps, Medicaid, etc), thus removing the company obligations to pay a living wage.

Access to healthcare is a human right. It's something which all people, regardless of their status, wage levels, class, citizenship should have access to. It results in a stronger economy. The metrics prove that. This is not hypothetical, these are facts.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
That's the problem. Using fuel taxes and registration fees to fund road construction is a horribly broken system.

So, how should roads be funded? Eliminate fuel tax? Eliminate car registration entirely, and instead sell the roads to companies which would charge a fee based on miles driven? Why should tax dollars be used at all? In a sound economic system, why even have taxes? Taxes are the antithesis of a sound economy.

After all, market solutions should rule the day, because, the market decides what is valuable and what isn't. So, privatize the police and fire departments and the military while we're at it. Pay for fee service, right? What a nice house you have, would be an awful shame if it burned down because you didn't pay your fire department subscription fee.

Why have a military, when we can let economics drive the decisions. The market would decide where and when foreign interventions are necessary to protect market interests - such as ensuring the Suez Canal remains open and passable, and oil reaches its clients, costs borne by the companies that benefit from such services.

Ultimately you'll come back and say that my assertions are patently absurd. We need a government to provide a military, and police, and fire services. It's just the hypocrisy of these positions - taxes are fine so long as they subsidize companies, and shareholders. They're not fine when used to benefit the population at large - is that the general idea?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
In that case you're setting up a sucking vortex like Social Security.

Your entire frame of reference is fixed to an American perception of how systems work - it's unfortunate that you display neither the information sources or imagination to visualize the successful systems already existing elsewhere. Better outcomes at lower cost, lower administrative burden, and simplicity for end-users are available to hundreds of millions of people.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
it's just the basic idea that the more important something is to someone, the more they'll be willing to pay for it

Life is not a thing as termed in the above context.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
I have insurance so I don't need any of that.

You have it now - there are no guarantees your insurance will be reliable or effective in the future, nor that you'll have the protections you claim 20 years from now.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
You can't do that with single payer.

You don't even know how it works - how can you comment on it? Most of the successful systems in use in other developed nations are more accurately termed double/triple payer; this is what makes them both successful and reliable. That is a readily available fact you cannot dispute, just a Google search away.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
Society has no standing to impose their will on an individual unless not doing so results in someone's rights being violated.

Somewhat abject fantasy considering the machinations of the current world in which you reside.
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JJJ
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
In a sound economic system, the people to whom something matters should be the ones to provide the funding.

Justice and Defense don't matter to me. Where do I sign so that my taxes don't end up there?
 
BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 9:25 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
So, according to your world view, if I am to extrapolate this correctly, you are saying that some lives are more valuable than others.

To the government, no, everyone's rights must be protected equally.

On a personal level, absolutely some people are worth more to me than others. My family members matter more than strangers on the street. And the same goes for companies, hence why not everyone has the same salary.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
This view, unfortunately, ignores the broader implications - people who don't receive treatment sometimes end up disabled as a result of a lack of early intervention, and draw on Social Security Disability - and end up on Medicare.

Those things need to be taken care of too.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
Under your system of choice, care costs more because of this - by ignoring medical issues until they are critical,

Not at all. Under single payer, nobody has incentive to do things early, since the government pays anyway.

If people were working under a more free system, they would have more incentive for preventative care if they could pay a little. Or at least the risk is on them. And I don't have an issue with letting insurance companies make coverage contingent on certain preventative measures.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
The facts are indisputable, and support only one conclusion - Universal single payer healthcare is a superior method of delivering healthcare to people.

The goal is not to give everyone healthcare at the lowest possible cost. The goal is to have the cost borne by those who benefit from the care.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
In a sound economic system, healthcare is a human right, just as is access to potable water, food, and safe shelter.

You'll note that when it comes to food, shelter and clothing there are already relatively free markets with a multitude of actors offering to meet those needs at a variety of price points. There are also multiple private organizations helping to provide access to those things for people who struggle to afford them. There's no reason healthcare would be different.

In short, you're not helping your case.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
So, what should society be? Unfair, inequitable?

Certainly not fair and equitable, because those two are mutually exclusive.

Equitable certainly doesn't work, and fair is almost entirely subjective so achieving either of those in a meaningful way is not realistic.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
Access to healthcare is a human right.

You do not have the right to get other people's products and labor for free.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
So, how should roads be funded?

Out of the general fund, which should really be changed over to FairTax.

The reality is that motorists are unfairly subsidizing the rest of the country. Roads that can support it should be privatized and taken off the books entirely.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
Taxes are the antithesis of a sound economy.

They are always a drain on the economy, but some level of taxation is necessary.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
After all, market solutions should rule the day, because, the market decides what is valuable and what isn't.

Precisely, so everywhere possible the market should rule.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
So, privatize the police and fire departments and the military while we're at it.

You'll find all three of those currently being practiced successfully.

The most problematic of the three is the military, since you can't really have mercenaries running around starting and fighting wars without chaos. I'd love for shipping lines to simply hire Academi guys to stand on their ships and blast Iranian gunboats that get too close, but that could cause issues. I do think that there should be reform in the military to more closely mirror private organizations.

The other two are done widely and successfully. There are many private police and security groups around the country that do just fine. Same for fire departments, and paramedics too for that matter. It works quite well.

Like privatizing infrastructure, it cannot be applied universally by any stretch, but it should be done where possible.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
Ultimately you'll come back and say that my assertions are patently absurd.

Not at all. It would be great if those things could be done, but are held back by matters of practicality.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
taxes are fine so long as they subsidize companies, and shareholders. They're not fine when used to benefit the population at large - is that the general idea?

Just who do you think those employees and shareholders are?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 52):
Better outcomes at lower cost,

Cost to whom?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 52):
You have it now - there are no guarantees your insurance will be reliable or effective in the future, nor that you'll have the protections you claim 20 years from now.

Dealing with the future is one of the disadvantages of not being dead.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 52):
Most of the successful systems in use in other developed nations are more accurately termed double/triple payer; this is what makes them both successful and reliable. That is a readily available fact you cannot dispute, just a Google search away

The issue is control of risk pools. Paying for others is just how insurance works, but the right way to do it is to allow people maximum control of the risk pool they are in, which means more choice of insurance is better, even down to being in a risk pool of one.
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Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 10:09 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Not at all. Under single payer, nobody has incentive to do things early, since the government pays anyway.

This is where you really are showing you have no idea how socialised medicine works. You feel sick you go to the doctor, something really wrong you're pushed through the system quicker, the difference is under a socialised system people know what the costs are so don't have to worry about co-pays, or will my insurance cover me, they just go and get themselves fixed, if anything it's your system which probably causes people to wait longer before doing something about their problem.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):

You'll find all three of those currently being practiced successfully.

So to healthcare in many other countries, it's the US where the system is expensive and broken.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
The issue is control of risk pools. Paying for others is just how insurance works, but the right way to do it is to allow people maximum control of the risk pool they are in, which means more choice of insurance is better, even down to being in a risk pool of one.

Until you end up with a medical problem which your health insurance provider decides not to cover than you're screwed, this would never happen to me in Norway or NZ, I'll always be covered.
 
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49):
If you have full govt funded medical, that person would also be paying for you.

I have insurance so I don't need any of that.

Ok, so let's say for argument sake you pay $4000 per year for your health insurance. I see by your profile that you're only at max, 20 years old. So even if you started paying at 16, (Mommy and Daddy pay for you???) you'd have paid at best about $16,000 in premiums. Let's say you develop cancer and the treatment, drugs, surgery will cost $200,000.oo. Tell us who pays the rest? You would be forced to depend on OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY and premiums to pay for your treatment, pooled in the insurance scheme. Absolutely no different than society pooling money for the treatment of all.

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
The facts are indisputable, and support only one conclusion - Universal single payer healthcare is a superior method of delivering healthcare to people. Period. End of discussion. Any further discussion advocating free market solutions has no basis in reality or facts.

        

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Under single payer, nobody has incentive to do things early, since the government pays anyway.

100% completely off base and wrong. You've got it completely backwards. When you have medical coverage you'd be far more likely to seek early treatment and get a minor problem fixed before it becomes a major problem. That's why single-payer is the best, because people seek early treatment.
Your American system, where people have to either pay the whole shot, or a huge co-pay will make people put off treatment because they can't afford it, and what was a simple problem that could have been cured by early treatment can perhaps become a major life-threatening issue.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
And I don't have an issue with letting insurance companies make coverage contingent on certain preventative measures.

So then, you'd have no issues with your insurance company getting a DNA sample from you, or your family, or your loved ones and then screening them for potential health issues in the future. And then denying them any coverage on the likelihood that they are pre-disposed to future costs. What would you do then when your vaunted private for profit health insurance companies deny you coverage for life, based on a DNA test. Oh well... tough luck for you. We'll just step over your dead body because to society, you simply didn't matter and your luck was bad. I wonder if laying on your death-bed at death's door, you'd have a different view of social medicine then? Where you would have been treated and not cast aside by an insurance company.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Cost to whom?

End-users, facilities, and government interests. The costs are lower for everyone involved, and the providers still get paid well.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
You do not have the right to get other people's products and labor for free.

They are not free. Not over here, not in HK, not in Australia, nor Germany, Scandinavia, nor any of the other highly-rated systems with better outcomes than those in US care.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Under single payer, nobody has incentive to do things early, since the government pays anyway.

Perhaps you're talking about a cultural problem with the US in general, not the healthcare system.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
If people were working under a more free system, they would have more incentive for preventative care if they could pay a little. Or at least the risk is on them. And I don't have an issue with letting insurance companies make coverage contingent on certain preventative measures.

A bunch of assumptions without a lot of experience.

Under the triple-payer system here, the risk is shared - by end user, employers, and the government. Everyone has equivalent stakes - the government wants its system to provide good outcomes, employers want workers who are healthy, and patients obviously want the same. All but the smallest employers (I believe those under 25 individuals are exempt) are required to send everyone on payroll for an annual health evaluation, which automatically goes to deeper screening at 35 for men and 40 for women. This is one of the ways the health ministry ensures costs stay low through preventative care. Just one of the advantages of having health policies set largely by MDs working in the health ministry instead of politicians.
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Marcus
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 2:46 pm

Out of the industrialized world, the US is the country that spends the most on healthcare and is nowhere near the top spot, it's not even in the top 10!

I will just leave these things here, try not to trip on them...

WHO rankingns on the world's healthcare systems

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...king-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-...e-systems-in-the-world-2012-6?op=1

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro...st-compared-to-10-other-countries/


Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, 2014 Update: How the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ...und-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/images/publications/fund-report/2014/june/davis_mirror_2014_es1_for_web.jpg?h=511&w=740&la=en&random=1430750172876

Those Europeans they sure know something about health...
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Siren
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 55):

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Not at all. Under single payer, nobody has incentive to do things early, since the government pays anyway.

This is where you really are showing you have no idea how socialised medicine works. You feel sick you go to the doctor, something really wrong you're pushed through the system quicker, the difference is under a socialised system people know what the costs are so don't have to worry about co-pays, or will my insurance cover me, they just go and get themselves fixed, if anything it's your system which probably causes people to wait longer before doing something about their problem.

Precisely. Under the current system in the United States, people have every incentive to defer health issues because they know that they will be unable to pay the inevitable thousands of dollars it will cost to receive medical care. As such, by the time those individuals are seen by the medical system, what could have been a mild flu resolved by a course of tamiflu has turned into full fledged pneumonia requiring a hospitalization and supportive care.

People do wait longer, because they don't have the money.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
The goal is not to give everyone healthcare at the lowest possible cost. The goal is to have the cost borne by those who benefit from the care.

That is the way healthcare is rationed in the United States - by people's ability to bear the costs of their care. It's the quintessential picture of a fundamentally broken system. What possible benefit does this system offer? By every metric, the cost burden on the economy is higher. By every metric, healthcare outcomes are lower. The United States is backsliding in every metric the developed world uses to gauge health, and it is because of 'the goal' you have in mind being the policy.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Just who do you think those employees and shareholders are?

The top 1%... the other 99% of us get this lovely "trickle-down" effect that some economists love. Well, here's an idea I love: It's called trickle-up economics. Set the maximum tax rates back at 91% as they were during the Eisenhower years fix any revenue deficit spending that may be occurring. Time to put America back on a sustainable path to growth and prosperity - by raising the gas taxes as part of a trillion dollar stimulus project to rehabilitate all the old and broken down infrastructure in this country. And another trillion dollar project must be started - to save Las Vegas, Phoenix, California, etc. And by ensuring healthcare for all. It's time to pass FDR's "Second Bill of Rights", and reinstate Johnson's "Great Society". It's time to demand accountability from those who have driven us to this unfortunate situation where shareholder profits and dividends are more important than the well being of the consumer. There's a reason economic growth is so tepid - it's because the jobs that used to exist are no longer there... the precious few middle class jobs that remain are scarce and require ever increasing amounts of education, which is, as a practical matter, unobtainable to somebody who lives at the poverty line. Why do you think the labor force as a percentage of population is the lowest it has been since its peak of 67.5% in 2000, now down to 62.5%? It's because the economy never recovered from the Great Recession, and all 'growth' has been picked up by the top 1%, and the other 99% are worse off.
 
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zckls04
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting Siren (Reply 51):
Exactly. The facts are indisputable, and support only one conclusion - Universal single payer healthcare is a superior method of delivering healthcare to people. Period. End of discussion. Any further discussion advocating free market solutions has no basis in reality or facts.

        

Indeed. As I've said many times, free market healthcare is an oxymoron.
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Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 60):

Indeed. As I've said many times, free market healthcare is an oxymoron.

Especially when you look at the above chart healthcare costs more in the US on a per person basis than all the other countries in the chart.

BMI is trolling, he's enjoying winding us up, nobody could be stupid enough to actually believe the crap he's writing.
 
bhill
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 61):
BMI is trolling, he's enjoying winding us up, nobody could be stupid enough to actually believe the crap he's writing.

Yep...I would like him to call up his county/state, taxing authority and tell them.."I will no longer be paying property taxes, I will be paying on a per-incident basis for fire, ems and police services, and for the schools, just divide all the headcount and I....."

Right.....
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
It's not sociopathy,

Actually, it is. Sociopathy is defined (on Wiktionary) as, "...a person showing antisocial behavior as part of psychiatric pathology."

At the very least, the 3rd definition of Anitsocial is, "Opposed to social order or the principles of society; hostile toward society".
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Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 63):
Actually, it is. Sociopathy is defined (on Wiktionary) as, "...a person showing antisocial behavior as part of psychiatric pathology."

At the very least, the 3rd definition of Anitsocial is, "Opposed to social order or the principles of society; hostile toward society".

On the basis of his posts above these fit him to a T.
 
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zckls04
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 61):
BMI is trolling, he's enjoying winding us up, nobody could be stupid enough to actually believe the crap he's writing.

He isn't- he just has a completely different outlook to most people. His arguments are completely consistent; they just argue for a world that most of us wouldn't want to live in.

But I have no doubt he would, and thus he's neither "trolling" nor "stupid".
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Siren
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Mon May 04, 2015 10:20 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 65):
He isn't- he just has a completely different outlook to most people. His arguments are completely consistent; they just argue for a world that most of us wouldn't want to live in.

I agree. Not a troll, just, of a very different world view. He's entitled to his opinions, but not his own facts. I think he simply believes that humans have no social responsibility to one another - which is a view I find prevalent among many American conservatives.

Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" seems to be an inspiration for many of these people - in the end, Rand enrolled herself onto socialized medicine in contravention of her values.

I believe that people who espouse these world views firmly believe them - until they find themselves in need of the social safety net. Then they discover that the people they've elected for the past 40 years have completely dismantled it - and end up starting GoFundMe campaigns for their cancer treatments and asking for charity, notwithstanding the fact that they never gave a dime to the homeless person on the street asking for loose change.

One way or another, karma is gonna get 'em.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 66):
I believe that people who espouse these world views firmly believe them - until they find themselves in need of the social safety net. Then they discover that the people they've elected for the past 40 years have completely dismantled it - and end up starting GoFundMe campaigns for their cancer treatments and asking for charity, notwithstanding the fact that they never gave a dime to the homeless person on the street asking for loose change.

One way or another, karma is gonna get 'em

I most certainly agree, all is well with these folks until, they need the safety net, whether it comes from financial setbacks, or a loss of health. Where do they run to for help when they have no family or friends ?

There is a song by Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young from a few years back called "Teach your children" Obviously this person of which you speak has never heard the words, or does not know the meaning of such words and how they apply to life, or plainly does not give a damn. I find such an attitude alien to everything I was tought and have learned in my life. As you say Karma will get them/him in the end, and well it should..
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 12:32 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 56):
I see by your profile that you're only at max, 20 years old.

I'm not.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 56):
You would be forced to depend on OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY and premiums to pay for your treatment, pooled in the insurance scheme. Absolutely no different than society pooling money for the treatment of all.

It is different. Insurance is not a tax.

Here's why socialized medicine does not work for me. Say someone has a surgery under the current system that costs $20,000. Then, under a single payer scheme with the government squeezing providers and all the rest of it, the same surgery might only cost $10,000. But now it's covered by tax revenue, some of which is mine. So I've gone from paying nothing to paying something for random guy's surgery. It's not a good deal for me.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 56):
You've got it completely backwards. When you have medical coverage you'd be far more likely to seek early treatment and get a minor problem fixed before it becomes a major problem. That's why single-payer is the best, because people seek early treatment

Not at all. If early intervention is so great, don't make it available but rather make it the most cost effective thing for people to do. Raise the stakes.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 56):
So then, you'd have no issues with your insurance company getting a DNA sample from you, or your family, or your loved ones and then screening them for potential health issues in the future. And then denying them any coverage on the likelihood that they are pre-disposed to future costs

I would be fine with certain insurance plans doing that. Costs can be lowered by controlling the risk pool.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 57):
They are not free. Not over here, not in HK, not in Australia, nor Germany, Scandinavia, nor any of the other highly-rated systems with better outcomes than those in US care.

It's funded by taxes, so it's really taxpayer labor that you're taking.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 57):
Everyone has equivalent stakes - the government wants its system to provide good outcomes, employers want workers who are healthy, and patients obviously want the same.

There's no reason why the stakes should be equivalent. The return on investment is not going to be equivalent and the desire for health is not equivalent, so the cost should not be equivalent.

Quoting Siren (Reply 59):
The top 1%...

Then I'm either the only person left smart enough to save for retirement, you just don't know what you're talking about or you're intentionally peddling bullshit.

Quoting Siren (Reply 59):
Set the maximum tax rates back at 91% as they were during the Eisenhower years fix any revenue deficit spending that may be occurring.

Nothing like lowering the incentive for production...
Money and jobs fleeing ridiculous taxation can't cause any problems can it?

Quoting Siren (Reply 59):
And another trillion dollar project must be started - to save Las Vegas, Phoenix, California, etc.

There is no reason that their desire to play golf in a desert should be my problem.

Quoting Siren (Reply 59):
It's time to pass FDR's "Second Bill of Rights", and reinstate Johnson's "Great Society".

That's the last thing we need. Their failed social programs have only succeeded at ballooning the national debt.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 61):
BMI is trolling, he's enjoying winding us up, nobody could be stupid enough to actually believe the crap he's writing.

Not at all.

The current system works just fine for me, so I don't want to change it out for one that will not suit me as well.

Quoting bhill (Reply 62):
Yep...I would like him to call up his county/state, taxing authority and tell them.."I will no longer be paying property taxes, I will be paying on a per-incident basis for fire, ems and police services, and for the schools, just divide all the headcount and I....."

I've already addressed this, and I'm fine with funding schools. What I have a problem with is paying for people the rest of their lives when they are too lazy or stupid to take advantage of the schools.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 63):
Actually, it is. Sociopathy is defined (on Wiktionary) as, "...a person showing antisocial behavior as part of psychiatric pathology."

At the very least, the 3rd definition of Anitsocial is, "Opposed to social order or the principles of society; hostile toward society".

I don't think wanting the consumers of a service to be the ones to pay for it counts as anti-social, but whatever.

Quoting Siren (Reply 66):
I think he simply believes that humans have no social responsibility to one another - which is a view I find prevalent among many American conservatives.

There's nothing wrong with helping people, in fact quite to the contrary, but forcing them to do so is not really a good deed. It's true what they say about liberals: Always ready to save the world with someone else's money.

Quoting Siren (Reply 66):
and end up starting GoFundMe campaigns for their cancer treatments and asking for charity,

I have infinitely more respect for that than for those who believe that they are entitled to help and that everyone else owes them something.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 67):
or plainly does not give a damn.

That's my whole point: Everyone should be free to give a damn about whatever and whomever they want to give a damn about.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Then, under a single payer scheme with the government squeezing providers and all the rest of it, the same surgery might only cost $10,000.

Sometimes it's better not to comment on things when you actually don't know how they work, it just looks ignorant.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
It's funded by taxes, so it's really taxpayer labor that you're taking.

Not funded by taxes. That's not always how it works.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
There's no reason why the stakes should be equivalent. The return on investment is not going to be equivalent and the desire for health is not equivalent, so the cost should not be equivalent.

Equivalency is not determined by the likes of you though, is it?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
That's my whole point: Everyone should be free to give a damn about whatever and whomever they want to give a damn about.

Fair enough, just not where life is involved. Someday it's you on the OR table.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
photopilot
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Here's why socialized medicine does not work for me. Say someone has a surgery under the current system that costs $20,000. Then, under a single payer scheme with the government squeezing providers and all the rest of it, the same surgery might only cost $10,000. But now it's covered by tax revenue, some of which is mine. So I've gone from paying nothing to paying something for random guy's surgery. It's not a good deal for me.

So, if you pay $5000 per year in Health Insurance PREMIUMS, or because it is more efficient and a larger pool of contributing people, a health TAX that is only $2000 per year in taxes, you think it's a better deal for you? Thanks for the laugh.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
It is different. Insurance is not a tax.

It's money out of your pocket to pay for a service. Whether you pay by $20 bills or $10 bills, either way they're called money. Same thing. The issue isn't how you pay for it by name, but the service you get for the amount you pay. As I noted above, you'd rather pay more and call it a premium than pay less and call it a tax. You're strange!!!!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
I'm not.

Well if you had accurate profile information we'd waste a lot less time. There is a vast difference in life experience in a 20 year old and whatever age you might be. So the reply is obviously different. You're wasting our time otherwise, the mark of a troll.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
I don't think wanting the consumers of a service to be the ones to pay for it counts as anti-social, but whatever.

And once again, the consumers of the service (health care) are indeed paying for it... thru general tax revenue instead of insurance premiums. But we still pay.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 47):
No I don't. I live among millions of other individuals, each of whom has their own opinions and priorities and are connected or not connected to me in a variety of ways.

Nope. You were born into it, and you benefited from it. You weren't born in some vacuum. You lived in a house built and made possible by society, you drove on roads built and made possible by society, your parents gave you a mostly free ride (bought you stuff, fed you, clothed you, etc) because they were part of society and they had jobs (contributing to society,) etc

Your argument is almost 100% wrong. You benefited from society now society is making you pay some back, thanks for your generosity! Ironically, if a sizable segment of the population acted like you, the society you so benefited from wouldn't even be close to existing
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
You benefited from society now society is making you pay some back, thanks for your generosity! Ironically, if a sizable segment of the population acted like you, the society you so benefited from wouldn't even be close to existing

He operates on a different interpretation of society - the views are closely identified to those of rugged individualists.

Society itself does have a clear definition, and isn't really open to interpretation however. Oxford: The community of people living in a particular country or region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations

Of the above, he is certainly a part, whether he likes it or not.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 4:01 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 72):
He operates on a different interpretation of society - the views are closely identified to those of rugged individualists.

That is how he wants to view society. While I do not like the fact that he or anyone can be so greedy or self centered, what really makes me mad is how he's acting like he's essentially self made and society hasn't really done anything for him. Almost everything he does is linked to society whether he wants to pretend he's part of it or not. He's not self made, not even close. He can continue to reap the benefits and pay into it, or he can move to some island away from society
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
He's not self made, not even close. He can continue to reap the benefits and pay into it, or he can move to some island away from society

Don't let it bother you that much dude. Anyone posting as much as he does on here has more free time than they should (that goes for all of us, lol).

I'm probably more self-made than he is, having left my home country, become proficient in an alien language, and developed a niche in a foreign market...yet still have the time to pop in on here.  
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DocLightning
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 5:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
It is different. Insurance is not a tax.

You're entitled to your own beliefs but not to contradict your own beliefs.

The ACA mandates that Americans purchase insurance. There is no tax unless you don't purchase insurance.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
He's not self made, not even close.

Oh hell no, he lived with mommy and daddy after college and didn't find a job for a long time because they were all beneath him.

Now, I also lived with my parents between college and medical school but I acknowledge that was an entitlement. They were well within their rights to kick me out and tell me to get my own damned job and pay for my own damned housing but they didn't because I am a respectful son who is grateful for all the advantages they gave me.
-Doc Lightning-

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Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):


Then, under a single payer scheme with the government squeezing providers and all the rest of it, the same surgery might only cost $10,000. But now it's covered by tax revenue, some of which is mine. So I've gone from paying nothing to paying something for random guy's surgery. It's not a good deal for me.

Under most socialised health services the govt is also the provider, the provider isn't getting ripped off, it's the true cost of the surgery that's being funded not some middle man creaming off the top.

My cousin broke her arm in the US, she went to A&E, got it fixed paid 20,000 thousand or so dollars and left, this was later claimed on her travel insurance. If she'd broken her arm in NZ, she would have gone to A&E got it fixed and walked out without paying a dime.

And then there's the coist to have children in the US, it runs to 10's of thousands and upwards, the total cost in having my three was parking at the hospitals and a bunch of flowers. All the pre and post natal care, free.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
The current system works just fine for me, so I don't want to change it out for one that will not suit me as well.

So you enjoy paying more and getting less.
 
BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 7:30 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 70):
So, if you pay $5000 per year in Health Insurance PREMIUMS, or because it is more efficient and a larger pool of contributing people, a health TAX that is only $2000 per year in taxes, you think it's a better deal for you? Thanks for the laugh

You can make a lot of things seem like a good idea when you make up the numbers.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 70):
It's money out of your pocket to pay for a service. Whether you pay by $20 bills or $10 bills, either way they're called money. Same thing.

The key difference between a premium and a tax is that you can stop paying a premium.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 70):
Well if you had accurate profile information we'd waste a lot less time.

It's more fun to see who pays attention and who will resort to age to write off arguments.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
You lived in a house built and made possible by society

No. Some people payed some other people to build a house. This isn't something done by nebulous "society," these are specific and defined groups. Not everyone built the house, the maybe dozens of people who actually built the house built the house, so it's flat out wrong to ascribe it to "society."

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
You benefited from society now society is making you pay some back,

My health benefits came from insurance, not "society."

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
While I do not like the fact that he or anyone can be so greedy or self centered,

You should because greed created every good thing that ever happened.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
He can continue to reap the benefits and pay into it, or he can move to some island away from society

Or I can express my views to advocate fixing it. I am simultaneously an unabashed optimist and dedicated cynic.

I'm firmly of the belief that most problems can be solved with a bit, or a ton, of work and buy in. But I just as firmly believe that in the majority of cases people, or "society," are far too stupid and lazy to actually make it happen.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):
The ACA mandates that Americans purchase insurance. There is no tax unless you don't purchase insurance.

When I say insurance is not a tax, it's with the implicit assumption that one can change or drop it at will. ACA is, at best, a grey area with plans that have to meet certain standards and a tax for not buying insurance.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 9:35 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
When I say insurance is not a tax, it's with the implicit assumption that one can change or drop it at will. ACA is, at best, a grey area with plans that have to meet certain standards and a tax for not buying insurance.

The problem with ACA is that it didn't go far enough, it should be a proper govt paid health service open to everyone, people should not have to pay for healthcare, it should be of equal importance as education, law enforcement and defence.

If people want to pay additional for private health insurance so be it, if compaines want to offer it as part of the package, well and good, but a system like in the UK, Canada, NZ, Norway and most of the developed world is far better and cheaper for all concerned than the system in the US which is broken and only benefits those who can afford it.
 
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fallap
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 10:17 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 6):
Things are not that bad in the U.S. Seriously. I go to the doctor, pay my 25.00 co-pay and everything is covered. And I can get in at anytime to see my doctor. No waiting list.

I will take the private health care system ANY DAY over a government provided health care system.

Your username makes this post hilarious.
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Now studying Political Science
 
Mir
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Here's why socialized medicine does not work for me. Say someone has a surgery under the current system that costs $20,000. Then, under a single payer scheme with the government squeezing providers and all the rest of it, the same surgery might only cost $10,000. But now it's covered by tax revenue, some of which is mine. So I've gone from paying nothing to paying something for random guy's surgery. It's not a good deal for me.

Until it's your turn to have surgery, at which point you get a very good deal on behalf of everybody else.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 80):
Until it's your turn to have surgery, at which point you get a very good deal on behalf of everybody else.

I just wonder what type of surgery you could have in the US for 20k, at best that would probably fix and ingrown toe nail, I can't imagine it would cover much else after all the providers have taken a cut.

Which still leads me to believe that BMI has been an excellet troll to have kept this up for years. It just makes no sence that any intelligent person could think despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary that the US health service is good value for money.
 
photopilot
Topic Author
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
The key difference between a premium and a tax is that you can stop paying a premium.

So then, assuming you own and drive a car, by your definition you're paying a "tax" to the insurance company for coverage because car insurance is mandatory in every state in the USA. Or you simply don't drive or ever own a car.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
You should because greed created every good thing that ever happened.

What's your real name.......... Gordon Gekko?  
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):
Now, I also lived with my parents between college and medical school but I acknowledge that was an entitlement. They were well within their rights to kick me out and tell me to get my own damned job and pay for my own damned housing but they didn't because I am a respectful son who is grateful for all the advantages they gave me.

Me as well. I worked very hard, VERY hard to get where I'm at, but would I have gotten there without the support/upbringing of my parents? Being born in the inner city?

His continuous downplay of his entitlements is what bugs me, and it turns his rugged individualist ideology into a hypocritical middle class kid that got where he was thanks to (admittedly) some hard work in school but also plenty of hand outs

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
No. Some people payed some other people to build a house. This isn't something done by nebulous "society," these are specific and defined groups. Not everyone built the house, the maybe dozens of people who actually built the house built the house, so it's flat out wrong to ascribe it to "society."

Yeah and without society as we know it these "specific and defined groups" would be a few of your clan members chopping down trees to make a log cabin, if that. No, this nebulous society is absolutely what led to your house being built. Feel free to want to act the way you do, luckily, most people aren't like you, or we wouldn't even have a functioning society and your cushy life and all the entitlements you receive that you pretend aren't entitlements wouldn't exist

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
My health benefits came from insurance, not "society."

Good luck having insurance without a society. Seriously?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
You should because greed created every good thing that ever happened.

When I say greedy, I'm not talking about a healthy amount of greed and ambition that makes the world go 'round. I'm talking about your immature 'me above everything else' mentality. People like you aren't the creators of "every good thing that ever happened." Continue to live the way you do, whatever, just quit pretending you have any kind of consistency or moral high ground.

For someone that complains so much about entitlements, you are one of the most entitled people I've come across. At least admit you have no real ideology, you just warp things around that conveniently benefit you even though it will often contradict a good chunk of what you say
 
blrsea
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
The key difference between a premium and a tax is that you can stop paying a premium.

yes, but happens when you need some care because you stopped paying premium (say lost job or wife took you to cleaners   ). If you break your arm & you have no money, would you be willing to tolerate the pain & broken arm because you have no money to get it fixed?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 84):
say lost job or wife took you to cleaners

With his attitude do you really think any female would be interested?
 
Ken777
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
If the infrastructure goes away, then it wasn't really needed in the first place.

Check out any big city hospital's ER in the evenings to see if that infrastructure will go away. The closet one to our house actually put a CT Scanner in the ER because of the heavy demand and it is going 24 hours a day. And that is on top of the ones in Radiology.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
If costs make a step change such that many people cannot afford it anymore, then all of those providers don't need to stay in business.

When you are talking about medical providers you generally are describing medical professionals who have a far more advanced education then you do with your simple little engineering degree. You move them out of the industry and it can take years to replace them when you finally understand that they are needed.

If we really want to be pragmatic, we can probably cut the number of aeronautical engineers in half as our current technology should be able to last us 50 to 100 years. All we need to do is continue with current production lines, ensuring that we have a few engineers added each year to replace those who started earning too much. The guys on the floor doing the real work can then be paid a bit more and yeah their sons the trade. Smaller plane companies have a sufficient product these days - no need for excessive R&D. Just continuing producing the same product.

Now the airplane business will, over time, get some benefits from advances in other fields. The use of the iPad to replace those heavy flight bags is a good example. But then a lot of computer chips can have a very long life in aerospace. How much does it cost to buy in Intel 286 or 386 processor chip these days?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
But there are things I can't afford and would like to, but my solution is not to invent legislative schemes to get someone else to fund it.

And when you are able to make those purchases the probability is high that the price will have been reduced by below poverty level minimum wages that moved the product to your hands. Those cheaper products are one major reason why there are legislative acts to cover some minimum level of support for those in poverty.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Reasonable for whom?

Medicare does a pretty good job of working out true costs and they don't pay even $5 for an alcohol prep pad. Those cost a few cents each. Disposable syringes at Sam's are around 13¢. So reasonable will be what is reasonable to providers, funders (like insurance companies or government programs) and patients.

If a hospital decides not to provide treatment to Medicare & Medicid patients then that is their decision. But the payers and patients may determine that their decision is not reasonable, meaning that their tax exempt status can be pulled and they can be banned from all federal research funds.
 
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zckls04
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Tue May 05, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Here's why socialized medicine does not work for me. Say someone has a surgery under the current system that costs $20,000. Then, under a single payer scheme with the government squeezing providers and all the rest of it, the same surgery might only cost $10,000. But now it's covered by tax revenue, some of which is mine. So I've gone from paying nothing to paying something for random guy's surgery. It's not a good deal for me.

Quite often the markup is a lot more than 200% though. An appendectomy on the NHS cost around 2300 GBP. Mine in the US cost around $38,000- and I got less for my money.

It doesn't negate your central point that you disagree with healthcare being a pooled cost, but I think it's worth noting the scale of the markups involved. I suspect people would be far more receptive to your suggestions if the price-gouging wasn't quite so egregious.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
BMI727
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed May 06, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 76):
Under most socialised health services the govt is also the provider, the provider isn't getting ripped off

There are also the doctors and the medical device/pharmaceutical companies. I doubt doctors would like making GS wages very much.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 82):
What's your real name.......... Gordon Gekko?

I don't like suspenders.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
Yeah and without society as we know it these "specific and defined groups" would be a few of your clan members chopping down trees to make a log cabin, if that.

So? All those people got paid. The framers got paid. The plumbers got paid. The electricians got paid. That's how an economy works.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
Feel free to want to act the way you do, luckily, most people aren't like you, or we wouldn't even have a functioning society

Everybody is like that whether they admit it or not. People trying to get what they want is how progress happens.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
your cushy life and all the entitlements you receive that you pretend aren't entitlements wouldn't exist

First, my life was not cushy. Calling it middle class would be quite a stretch.

And "entitlements"? My parents worked hard to provide what I did have. Who knows if they'll ever really retire. They didn't have to do that, I wasn't entitled to any of that. And somehow I owe the government for all this?

"We" is one of the most overused words in the English language. I even catch myself using it inappropriately sometimes. People say "We played a great game last night" when in fact the team that they like to watch played a great game.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 83):
For someone that complains so much about entitlements, you are one of the most entitled people I've come across.

Really? I'm not the one saying that people who gain nothing from me being alive should have to pay to keep me that way.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86):
Check out any big city hospital's ER in the evenings to see if that infrastructure will go away. The closet one to our house actually put a CT Scanner in the ER because of the heavy demand and it is going 24 hours a day. And that is on top of the ones in Radiology.

Then what are you worried about?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86):
And when you are able to make those purchases the probability is high that the price will have been reduced by below poverty level minimum wages that moved the product to your hands.

As long as it gets in my hands...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86):
Those cheaper products are one major reason why there are legislative acts to cover some minimum level of support for those in poverty.

...it's also a major reason why even dropout sandwich artists have flat screens and smart phones.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 87):
Quite often the markup is a lot more than 200% though. An appendectomy on the NHS cost around 2300 GBP. Mine in the US cost around $38,000- and I got less for my money.

I'm not sure what the numbers may be, just making the point that I'd go from paying nothing to paying something, hence it's a bad deal.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed May 06, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
So? All those people got paid. The framers got paid. The plumbers got paid. The electricians got paid. That's how an economy works.

You missed the point I was trying to make. Without the society you keep pretending doesn't exist, the best you'd be able to do is build stuff from trees and rocks. Modern day society allows for a lot more than individual humans/small groups could ever do. Let's stop pretending a bunch of "screw everyone else" individuals would ever be able to form anything close to what we have today

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Everybody is like that whether they admit it or not. People trying to get what they want is how progress happens.

No. People are absolutely not how you describe. Does everyone have a bit of greed? Of course. Are they all greedy to the point of being a sociopath? Thankfully, no. Capitalism can absolutely thrive without unbridled0, psychotic greed

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
First, my life was not cushy. Calling it middle class would be quite a stretch.

It absolutely was, from what you described. Were you Mitt Romney rich? No. You were born in middle class (stretch or not) America in the 1990s and got a decent education and had 2 parents who supported you, even when you were unemployed and contributing nothing/next to nothing while you sat on a.net and complained about how all these jobs were "beneath you." Much more entitlements than most people get. You continuously say how you want to make all this money, I highly doubt you will, you lack the maturity and work ethic to ever make it big

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
And "entitlements"? My parents worked hard to provide what I did have. Who knows if they'll ever really retire. They didn't have to do that, I wasn't entitled to any of that. And somehow I owe the government for all this?

Again, you don't have to be living like Mitt Romney to have benefited. A stable society, full of people, working together to an extent, allowed you to grow up the way you did. I'm not saying you or anyone owes every cent you make to society but to pay into the society? Absolutely. Taxes for infrastructure for example. And as technology and standard of living improves, so does the potential of society to continue to improve lives of its people. Yep, gotta pay into that, that's just how it works

Don't confuse me for saying we should be robbed blind and taxed 90% or anything, but your disdain to pay hardly anything is just unacceptable. Sorry.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Really? I'm not the one saying that people who gain nothing from me being alive should have to pay to keep me that way.

Give me a break. Your ideology is "no handouts/government spending except, coincidentally, for the handouts/government spending that benefits me." Your stance on small government makes sense to a certain level but then you throw in large, wasteful defense spending and use mental gymnastics to argue to for outrageous expenditures, overseas meddling, money wasting wars, etc which would really only benefit those in the defense industry (which you just so happen to benefit from,) yeah, hypocritical. Screw everyone, government shouldn't do jack oh except when it obviously benefits me. That is not a consistent ideology, quit pretending like you have one
 
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Aaron747
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed May 06, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
I doubt doctors would like making GS wages very much.

Again, better not to comment on that which you know little of. If you look around readily-available resources, in Canada, the UK, Japan, Australia, etc, all places with an advanced NHS, the average GP's pay (incl. bonuses) is always north of US$100K.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12631
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed May 06, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
There are also the doctors and the medical device/pharmaceutical companies. I doubt doctors would like making GS wages very much.

The govt run health services purchase from the big pharma and the medical device companies just like the private providers do, but since they are the govt they are buying on a much larger scale and can get better pricing.

Doctors get paid well in NZ, with a GP earning 150-200K NZD, consultants and specialists can name their price, an easy 300-500K NZD or more. Nobody in the medical profession in NZ, Norway, Aussie or most other first world countries with socialised medicine can complain about salaries.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3713
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed May 06, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
The case you present makes perfect sense: I need the employee to do work and want to offer competitive compensation to keep him from leaving, so I have a distinct incentive to provide medical coverage. Hence, employer provided insurance, essentially the same system we have now. Moving it to a taxpayer funded system is essentially a corporate subsidy.

No because that business also pays taxes to the government to fund the system as well.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):

"We" is one of the most overused words in the English language. I even catch myself using it inappropriately sometimes. People say "We played a great game last night" when in fact the team that they like to watch played a great game.

No one gets to the top without collaboration with others and we is one of the most important words out there.

I happen to know two women whom opened a yoga studio in 2009 and today has grown to 8 studios in the Toronto area with one or two new ones opening every year. They have essentially built a franchise in just over 5 years. When those founders speak their keys for success all surround collaboration and support from other individuals. They may have had the initial idea but the entire culture was built around a community and others buying in to make the success happen.

Any successful business leader will say something like that.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Wed May 06, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
There are also the doctors and the medical device/pharmaceutical companies. I doubt doctors would like making GS wages very much.

Again showing your ignorance. A lot of Doctors in a country with health care for all work in the private sector. Their patients are the ones with insurance, for the most part, and they do very well. Even my GP with a clinic down the street lived a very comfortable life

In Australia (and elsewhere) there is also some major status in teaching, even if part time. Selection for teaching gets you the title of "Professor" and these doctors work in both the public and private sectors.

DME providers may complain because they can't grossly overcharge for something like a wheelchair or cpap. BFD. DME "providers" is one of the major sources for Medicare fraud.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
That's how an economy works.

Assuming you have the money to pay those bills. With out minimum wage you often don't.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
And "entitlements"? My parents worked hard to provide what I did have.

Most Americans do work hard - even if it is only to hold on to that minimum wage job at Walmart.

And while they were working they were covered by Social Security insurances, be it disability or death. Think that is a trivial "entitlement"? Ask Paul Ryan. His father died when he was young and Ryan has publicly admitted that those monthly Social Security payments were the key to his going to university.

Compared to Ryan you were pretty lucky, eh what? And compared to the guy I know who was hit by a drunk driver and is now a quad for life you are pretty lucky that it wasn't your Dad who probably worked just as hard as this friend. But you would have had that monthly Social Security Disability check to help YOU get through University.

To be blunt, you family was always protected by entitlements, starting before you were born. You just happen to be in that inexperience group that believes that they will never need anything from the state.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
...it's also a major reason why even dropout sandwich artists have flat screens and smart phones.

Still riding hat dead horse?
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu May 07, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 89):
Without the society you keep pretending doesn't exist, the best you'd be able to do is build stuff from trees and rocks.

The reason you can build a house isn't "society." It's because of the carpenter, roofer, plumber, electrician, etc. It's not everybody. It's certain people.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 89):
Are they all greedy to the point of being a sociopath? Thankfully, no.

They are. It's just not always about money.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 89):
Don't confuse me for saying we should be robbed blind and taxed 90% or anything, but your disdain to pay hardly anything is just unacceptable. Sorry.

I have no problem paying for things that are useful to me and can only be done by the government.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 89):
Your stance on small government makes sense to a certain level but then you throw in large, wasteful defense spending and use mental gymnastics to argue to for outrageous expenditures, overseas meddling, money wasting wars, etc which would really only benefit those in the defense industry (which you just so happen to benefit from,) yeah, hypocritical.

Are you kidding? Privatizing defense would be awesome. Imagine if instead of national armed forces it was all done privately by outfits like Academi, which would have to be bigger and more numerous. And they'd all be in competition to have the latest and greatest stuff. That would be a phenomenal situation.

Now of course the reason I can't support that is that such groups would eventually be just paid thugs and things would devolve into chaos.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 90):
Again, better not to comment on that which you know little of. If you look around readily-available resources, in Canada, the UK, Japan, Australia, etc, all places with an advanced NHS, the average GP's pay (incl. bonuses) is always north of US$100K.

See that's a problem. If you're going to force government funded healthcare down my throat, then it has to be done in accordance with Milton Friedman's four ways of spending money and therefore be done as cheaply as possible. Move the meat for the least money possible.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 92):
No one gets to the top without collaboration with others and we is one of the most important words out there.

I didn't say "we" was unimportant. I said it was overused.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 92):
I happen to know two women whom opened a yoga studio in 2009 and today has grown to 8 studios in the Toronto area with one or two new ones opening every year. They have essentially built a franchise in just over 5 years. When those founders speak their keys for success all surround collaboration and support from other individuals.

That wasn't built by "society." That was built by the two founders, their accountant, their lawyer, their investors (if they have them), etc. Society at large doesn't get to take credit for that.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 93):
Most Americans do work hard - even if it is only to hold on to that minimum wage job at Walmart.

There's working smart too. My parents did not do the most lucrative work.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 93):
And while they were working they were covered by Social Security insurances, be it disability or death.

My parents always had private life insurance, so it wasn't a consideration.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 93):
Still riding hat dead horse?

If you want to play the "Cheap stuff ruins the economy" card, you have to look at both sides.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8917
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu May 07, 2015 1:16 am



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
The reason you can build a house isn't "society." It's because of the carpenter, roofer, plumber, electrician, etc. It's not everybody. It's certain people.

Of course not all 315 million Americans built your house. Try getting a house built without a society. Even if you manage to get a carpenter, roofer, etc I wonder where they're going to get their tools without society.

Your fantasy that everyone works independent of each other is just delusional. Of course society isn't present in 100% of everything anyone ever does but it is connected to most things to some degree. Your school system that enabled you to get a good education (while others didn't get that level of education,) your parent's able to keep a job and pay for you while you sat around refusing to work, etc where all possible because of societal interactions. Even packs of apes form societies

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
They are. It's just not always about money.

No. Most of them aren't greedy (for money or other things) to the point of being a sociopath. And if you think that's how you become happy and successful, I doubt you'll achieve that

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
Are you kidding? Privatizing defense would be awesome. Imagine if instead of national armed forces it was all done privately by outfits like Academi, which would have to be bigger and more numerous. And they'd all be in competition to have the latest and greatest stuff. That would be a phenomenal situation.

Err  Confused

[Edited 2015-05-06 18:16:40]
 
photopilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3101
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RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu May 07, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
...it's also a major reason why even dropout sandwich artists have flat screens and smart phones.

My.... aren't we the elitist individual. For a person who screams choice and freedom, you've just posted a single sentence that proves conclusively your nonsense. First off, you call someone a "dropout sandwich artist". Ok, if it makes you feel good to call lower paid people names, that just shows your lack of class. But your statement also clearly indicates they actually have a JOB..... with a paid wage. The you go on to snidely condemn them for having flat screens and smart phones. WHAT.... you get to decide what someone else spends the money they earned upon? Can't have it both ways bud.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
The reason you can build a house isn't "society." It's because of the carpenter, roofer, plumber, electrician, etc. It's not everybody. It's certain people.

Yah sure... and just who supplies your water supply, your sewage, your garbage collection, the roads you drive on to get to your house, the snowplows in winter (if applicable), the fire and police protection, etc? Those are ALL supplied by the society you callously disdain.

Oh, and the carpenter, roofer, plumber, electrician, etc you think are yours because you paid them, well every one of them is likely licenced by the State in order to work. Those builders you're hiring are licenced for YOUR protection by Society so that you are assured of their qualifications. Likely also the building inspector that inspected the house being built, the city planning department, etc are all services of an advanced society. Paid by tax dollars. Yet mention the word medical care and you take a hissy-fit of individualism and scream... THAT's NOT SOCIETY!!!! Hubris to say the least.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3713
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu May 07, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
That wasn't built by "society." That was built by the two founders, their accountant, their lawyer, their investors (if they have them), etc. Society at large doesn't get to take credit for that.

Yes that is a factor.

However do you not think that the electric infrastructure to heat the place to 100 degrees (its a hot yoga studio), the telecommunication lines to get internet and their electronic payments, and the plumbing for the showers, laundry and sinks were magically invented by them too. That taxpayer invested infrastructure allowed these studios to exist.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
I didn't say "we" was unimportant. I said it was overused.

We'll agree to disagree there.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu May 07, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 95):
Of course not all 315 million Americans built your house.

Then stop going on about "society" and credit the people who actually did it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 95):
Your fantasy that everyone works independent of each other is just delusional.

I never said that.

The goal is for as many relationships as possible to be entirely voluntary. That isn't actually possible, but it is a worthy goal to get as close as possible.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 95):
Most of them aren't greedy (for money or other things) to the point of being a sociopath.

Why do you think people might dedicate their lives to serving others? It's because it makes them feel good. Or because they believe they win favor with God.

That's not to diminish the act, but let's be honest about why it gets done.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 96):
The you go on to snidely condemn them for having flat screens and smart phones. WHAT.... you get to decide what someone else spends the money they earned upon?

No I don't but if they're collecting welfare then there's a serious problem.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 96):
Those are ALL supplied by the society you callously disdain.

No, they're all supplied by specific people who can be found and named. There's records for that.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 97):
However do you not think that the electric infrastructure to heat the place to 100 degrees (its a hot yoga studio), the telecommunication lines to get internet and their electronic payments, and the plumbing for the showers, laundry and sinks were magically invented by them too. That taxpayer invested infrastructure allowed these studios to exist.

You can find all of those people. You can tell who buys shares in the power company and who pays what for electricity. You can tell who pays how much in taxes. Stop ascribing to everyone what is actually done by a specific group of people.

And everybody has the damn internet. Nobody gets to say you built Facebook or Google because a nickel or two might have gone to DARPA years ago. That's just grasping at straws to gain a bit of false glory.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Ken777
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: US Doctors Moving To Canada' Universal Health-Care

Thu May 07, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
It's because of the carpenter, roofer, plumber, electrician, etc. It's not everybody. It's certain people.

But those tradesmen didn't just appear when you said "Poof!" First they had to be educated and that takes a city or town with people paying taxes for that K - 12 education. Then they hit the trade schools and/or apprenticeships, which require a lot more people paying for their work. And of course there is a long line of customers over the years as they gain experience so they can do a decent job on your house. It may not be "everybody", but it's a hell of a lot more people than you can imagine - and that's before you add in the employees of companies that provides the materials used, and the R&D staff supporting them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
Are you kidding?

Are you serious?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
Privatizing defense would be awesome

Probably the most ignorant comment you have ever made,

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
And they'd all be in competition to have the latest and greatest stuff.

Forget that. They would just meed at a very good restaurant (for the tax write-off ) and divide up the market.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
That would be a phenomenal situation.

Like Blackwater?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
then it has to be done in accordance with Milton Friedman's four ways of spending money and therefore be done as cheaply as possible.

Cheaply means your parents would die faster than they would if they were given good medical care.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
My parents always had private life insurance, so it wasn't a consideration.

Ask Rand Paul about that. You assume that their life insurance would be sufficient to cover long time expenses and that is generally not the case - unless your surviving parent moved into a far cheaper neighborhood and there was no money spent on post high school education costs.

You need to take some night classes on Personal Finance. Pay close attention to discussions on the impact of inflation on savings and insurance funds.

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