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Aaron747
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Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 2:20 pm

So it seems that Mr. Jeb Bush has created a bit of a mess with this whole business of trying to hypothesize what decisions would be made in Iraq having known this or that - his staff have said they were not in damage control mode, but with criticism coming from both conservatives and those to the left, that can't exactly be the case either. If I were him, I'd definitely distance myself from the likes of Paul Wolfowitz, but that guy seems to be catnip to the Bush family.

How do you guys think this plays for the other libertarian/GOP candidates?

Hillary is in the same boat, since she voted for the war's initiation in 2003. In practical terms, hopefully this single issue is enough to make both Clinton and Bush unelectable in this next cycle.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So it seems that Mr. Jeb Bush has created a bit of a mess with this whole business of trying to hypothesize what decisions would be made in Iraq having known this or that - his staff have said they were not in damage control mode, but with criticism coming from both conservatives and those to the left, that can't exactly be the case either.

He created the mess by not answering the question that was asked. He was asked "knowing what we know now, would you have authorized the invasion?” He answered the question "knowing what we thought at the time, would you have authorized the invasion?”

It's a surprising blunder given that it is so obvious that Jeb would have to field questions about Iraq. As it stands, even George W. Bush is on the record stating that the Iraq war was a mistake knowing what we know today.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):

What?

Jeb did nothing wrong. In a debate, always answer the question you want to be asked, not the one that actually was asked.


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Rara
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Jeb did nothing wrong. In a debate, always answer the question you want to be asked, not the one that actually was asked.

Except in this case, the question actually asked would have been the more harmless one.
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Aaron747
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
It's a surprising blunder given that it is so obvious that Jeb would have to field questions about Iraq.

So he's not really interested in a serious run, has incompetent advisors, or what..?
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Polot
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):

He has likely been prepping his answer to the question he actually answered (would you have gone to war with information at the time) for some time because he will no doubt be asked that countless times during the campaigning process. So he probably wasn't fully paying attention to what was actually asked.

Just a simple blunder, and has since gone back and corrected himself with the 'right' answer (no he would not go to war knowing what we know now).
 
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Thu May 14, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 5):
Just a simple blunder, and has since gone back and corrected himself with the 'right' answer (no he would not go to war knowing what we know now).

Perhaps, but given that he's running for President, blunders like that can be costly. Remember how easy it is to get drummed out of the race. Howard Dean's scream was all it took. I liked him, too.
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victrola
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 12:24 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Hillary is in the same boat, since she voted for the war's initiation in 2003. In practical terms, hopefully this single issue is enough to make both Clinton and Bush unelectable in this next cycle.

She is not really in the same boat because given what she knows now she would consider her previous vote a wrong decision. Unfortunately in politics it is impossible to admit that you ever made a wrong decision. We all make bad decisions all the time and we learn from these lessons and hopefully make better decisions in the future. A real sign of insanity in life is to stick with a dumb decision you have made. Unfortunately politicians are not able to do this no matter how bad a decision they have made was because they will get accused of flip flopping on the issues. Politics can take the most intelligent people in the world and make them look like complete idiots.

For this reason, I can't take today's political debates seriously. There is much more to be learned about the important issues of our times by listening to experts , who are not politicians, with different points of view who don't have their jobs at stake and are free to make their points without having to worry about the polls.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting victrola (Reply 7):
Unfortunately politicians are not able to do this no matter how bad a decision they have made was because they will get accused of flip flopping on the issues.

I've seen politicians admit they were wrong and not get skewered for it. The place where you make yourself a target is when you don't first admit you were wrong.
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 12:36 am

did anybody read Andy Borowitz article about Bush. OMG


http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/...tz-Jeb-Bush-Iraq-Shocker1-1200.jpg



BOROWITZ REPORT

MAY 14, 2015
Bush Says Iraq Question Unimportant Since He Clearly Will Never Be President

TEMPE, ARIZONA (The Borowitz Report)—After several days of controversy over whether he would have authorized an invasion of Iraq, former Florida Governor Jeb Bush said on Thursday that the question was unimportant since it is now painfully clear that he will never be President.

“Look, I can understand people wanting to know where I stand on this Iraq business if I actually had a chance of being elected,” he told an audience in Arizona. “But since I’ve pretty much pissed that away, what’s the point, really?”

Bush urged those who sought out his opinion on policy matters to take a look at how poorly his campaign is going “and get a reality check about the odds of me ever being President, which are hovering in the vicinity of zero.”

“I’m tied with Ben Carson in the polls, folks,” he said. “You heard me. Ben-freaking-Carson. A neurosurgeon. If you’re running in a Republican primary and can’t beat a scientist, you might as well put a fork in it.”

When asked by a reporter what he would do to grow the economy, Bush laughed ruefully and said, “Well, I guess if I said that I’d do exactly what my brother did and drive the whole thing straight into the crapper, you folks would have a field day with that, wouldn’t you? But let’s get serious. You want an answer to that question, ask someone who actually has a chance at winning this damn thing. I’m sure Scott Walker would love to talk to you good people.”
 
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Moose135
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 9):
did anybody read Andy Borowitz article about Bush. OMG
http://www.newyorker.com/contributors/andy-borowitz

Quote:
Andy Borowitz is a New York Times best-selling author and a comedian who has written for The New Yorker since 1998. In 2001, he created the Borowitz Report, a satirical news column that has millions of readers around the world, for which he won the first-ever National Press Club award for humor.

I don't think Jeb actually said any of those things.
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fr8mech
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 1:16 am

Damn, I freaking hate that question:

"If you knew then what we know now, what would you do?"

The question is a trap. It presupposes that the original decision was a dumb-ass decision, and that if you make the same decision, you have not learned anything. If you go contrary to the decision made, you confirm the opinion...and that's what it tends to be, an opinion... that the original decision was incorrect and you toss the original decision maker under the bus.

A proper question would be:

Given the information available at the time, what would you have done? And, then make him defend that decision countered against previous statements and positions.

But, we live in a world of 5 second sound-bites, and nobody has any time for actual analysis into the decision making process behind any specific event.

[Edited 2015-05-14 18:31:58]
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seb146
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
In a debate

This was not a debate. This was an interview on a right-wing favorable channel.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
It presupposes that the original decision was a dumb-ass decision,

In general, there are dumb-ass decisions, like going to war with a country that has nothing to do with anything based on drawings and doctored surveillance images, and better decisions, like gathering a coalition of nations to flush out a group hell bent on the destruction of freedom.

Specifically, the question was "knowing what we know now..." And, since this was an interview and not a debate, he had the chance to dance and dance and spin all he wanted. But, he didn't. You can throw paint on a Bush and call it unique, but it is still a Bush.
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 4:51 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I don't think Jeb actually said any of those things

wow! you're probably smarter than Jeb Bush.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 13):
wow! you're probably smarter than Jeb Bush.

I'm smart enough to properly use the quote function.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
"knowing what we know now..."

And, like I said, I think it's a crappy question. It's a question that is designed to trap and does not provide any real insight.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
I'm smart enough to properly use the quote function.

sorry about that, apparently i'm not.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 12:18 pm

Jeb walked it back, with a hawkish worldview. Make no mistake, if he is elected, he will find a way to get us involved in another war. That is the Bush family Iraq legacy.
 
mham001
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 2:42 pm

Hillary is going to have a bigger problem with Libya. Iraq is history from which we should have learned. Libya is ongoing and the result of ignoring those lessons to join the Europeans in a colossal blunder.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 3:04 pm

Clinton and other US congress members that voted on the Iraq war voted on false information provided by W Bush, pushed by his father and his entourage. That's the problem Jeb Bush is facing, no one else is in the same boat.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
victrola
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 9:09 pm

How much longer are we going to keep training the Iraqi army? We have been at it since 2003 and they are still getting their asses kicked by ISIS. Why is it that ISIS fighters are able to master basic infantry tactics and discipline and the Iraqi army is not? It is obvious that nobody is willing to fight for a country called Iraq. This hawkish world view of Jeb Bush and the other Republicans is going to cost us trillions more dollars.

The Bush family has blundered on Iraq from the start. It started when George Sr. sent his ambassador April Glaspie to Iraq and basically gave Saddam Hussein the green light to take care of Kuwait. I have never heard a coherent explanation of the April Glaspie Saddam Hussein meeting. Then Bush Jr. blunders into the second Iraq war and declares "mission acomplished". !2 years later, it is still a disaster.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 9:22 pm

The competent military men where dismissed by the US and are now working for ISIS, that's the problem.
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 10:05 pm

Jon Stewart parses out all of the answers from JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVYFjDk41mw

[Edited 2015-05-15 15:05:45]
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Hillary is in the same boat, since she voted for the war's initiation in 2003. In practical terms, hopefully this single issue is enough to make both Clinton and Bush unelectable in this next cycle.

She's on record in 2008 of having changed her position, as many Democrats at the time did too.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Damn, I freaking hate that question:

"If you knew then what we know now, what would you do?"

It's a very simple question. If simple questions like this tripped him up, I'd be scared to see what he makes of more complex things. And unless Fox News was trying its hand at gotcha journalism or does not like Bush, I'd be surprised that someone would even be astonished of a question asked by the network.

Someone with good communication skills would have repeated the question to be sure that they understood it and then answered it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Given the information available at the time, what would you have done? And, then make him defend that decision countered against previous statements and positions.

No one is going to properly be able to answer that by forgetting all that's happened these past 12 years. Everyone's gonna answer based on what they know now.

It's like playing one lottery scratcher ticket and seeing that the guy next to you pulled another ticket of the same series and won big. Would you have chosen to not play an additional dollar or two?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Fri May 15, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):

Damn, I freaking hate that question:

"If you knew then what we know now, what would you do?"

I agree it's kinda silly, though the fact that he answered it the way he did is pretty telling. I don't really buy that he misunderstood the question...

I think a better question would be to apply it to modern day Iran. So many are beating the drum of war over Iran. I don't think invading Iran would be like Iraq... I think it would be much worse...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
That's the problem Jeb Bush is facing, no one else is in the same boat.

Not exactly - whether the information presented by the CIA, Powell presentation, etc was false or not, there were plenty of voices outside the US calling the conclusions into question on the facts. Clinton and everyone else who voted for it ignored those voices. Was it jingoism? Who knows, but in the post-9/11 environment, reasoned heads did not prevail and very expensively so.

Quoting victrola (Reply 19):
It is obvious that nobody is willing to fight for a country called Iraq. This hawkish world view of Jeb Bush and the other Republicans is going to cost us trillions more dollars.

Couldn't agree more. They have never failed to spot a global issue that couldn't be solved with more American presence, rather than less. Cheney and the like even go on to say they'd do it exactly the same all over again...the mind boggles.
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 3:17 am

I don't understand why we keep on trying to micromanage the world. when has that ever worked out? Business have even stopped micromanaging their employee's because all it does is piss them off and lower moral.

Yet, somehow Washington thinks this is still acceptable to do. After 12 years and trillion of dollars all we have succeeded in doing is inflaming those in the Middle east and make the area more unstable.
 
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seb146
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting victrola (Reply 19):
Why is it that ISIS fighters are able to master basic infantry tactics and discipline and the Iraqi army is not?

The United States teaches the mechanics but IS are masters of propaganda. The mind is a much more powerful weapon. I can be taught to shoot to kill a target at 100 yards, but if I am told over and over again that, because of a deeply held belief, the people training me are the mortal enemy, I will believe the repetition. If something is repeated enough, it will become truth.
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 6:28 am

Jeb Bush says: "The world is safer place now that Saddam is gone"....

The world is not a safer place. Iraq and the Middle East are less safe. Why pull out a ruthless dictator like Saddam, who is ruling over competing Sunni and Shiite factions? Did ANYONE in the CIA or the Gubernment Intelligence forces think that "US style Democracy" was going to allow peace in one nation with competing religious factions, that have been at each other for, oh, a Thousand Years??? There really is NO solution for any nation that has the parity of competing Islamic factions as Iraq does. Iran is mostly Shia. Saudia Arabia is mostly Sunni. Apples and Oranges. Why couldn't our paid Professionals see this religious civil war in Iraq coming?? What are they drinking -- or smoking ???
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 6:30 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 25):

Exactly. World would keep running just fine without United States and other western countries sticking their nose into business that doesn't belong to them. ISIS sure thanks the US for getting rid of Saddam and helping Libyan rebel movement in getting rid of Gaddafi. US support to FSA sure helped ISIS too by further destabilizing Assad's regime.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
The United States teaches the mechanics but IS are masters of propaganda. The mind is a much more powerful weapon. I can be taught to shoot to kill a target at 100 yards, but if I am told over and over again that, because of a deeply held belief, the people training me are the mortal enemy, I will believe the repetition. If something is repeated enough, it will become truth.

Also ISIS fighters probably more or less believe in their cause and have a high moral due to that. The idea that dying in their holy war will make them celebrated martyrs in the heaven probably boosts their morale further.

Iraqi army on the other hand, well, they are fighting for a divided and failed state that may not exist in 15 years. They probably aren't religious extremists who think they are fighting a holy war of any kind, thus no martyrdom if you die. I can understand why they wouldn't have much motivation to risk their lives in battle.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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seb146
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):
Iraqi army on the other hand, well, they are fighting for a divided and failed state that may not exist in 15 years.

People who live with the "vote for me or die" mentality tend to vote for life. That is how Saddam stayed in power so long. He was a bad man. But, a saint compared to the alternative we are seeing.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
But, a saint compared to the alternative we are seeing.

The US apparently preferred to remove a strongman that, while ruthless, still ensured that the country (and overall region) was stable. Under Saddam I don't think ISIS would have even proliferated. Begs the question if the US is willing to do a 180 with Assad and realize he's the lesser of two evils.
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QANTAS077
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):
Iraqi army on the other hand, well, they are fighting for a divided and failed state that may not exist in 15 years.

err...try now, Iraq is fractured, it's already begun and this failed state already exists.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 25):
I don't understand why we keep on trying to micromanage the world. when has that ever worked out? Business have even stopped micromanaging their employee's because all it does is piss them off and lower moral.

Yet, somehow Washington thinks this is still acceptable to do. After 12 years and trillion of dollars all we have succeeded in doing is inflaming those in the Middle east and make the area more unstable.

Lockheed Martin, Rockwell, defence contracts..etc
 
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Aesma
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sat May 16, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
Not exactly - whether the information presented by the CIA, Powell presentation, etc was false or not, there were plenty of voices outside the US calling the conclusions into question on the facts. Clinton and everyone else who voted for it ignored those voices. Was it jingoism? Who knows, but in the post-9/11 environment, reasoned heads did not prevail and very expensively so.

Yes, France in particular had its own intel since being burned by US lies during the first Gulf War, but you can't expect the average politician to trust foreign intelligence more than its own.

Now why nobody is in jail over those lies, that's another subject.
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 1:06 am

why does the GOP blame Obama for creating ISIS? I keep hearing they think ISIS was crated when Obama withdrew from Iraq. Will someone take the time to explain this a bit without giving me a headache?
 
scamp
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
People who live with the "vote for me or die" mentality tend to vote for life. That is how Saddam stayed in power so long. He was a bad man. But, a saint compared to the alternative we are seeing.

There are/were a LOT of bad men in the world, but the USA didn't and doesn't go after them the way they did Saddam. He just happened to be a bad man sitting on an ocean of oil.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 1:50 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 33):
why does the GOP blame Obama for creating ISIS? I keep hearing they think ISIS was crated when Obama withdrew from Iraq. Will someone take the time to explain this a bit without giving me a headache?

The argument (I believe) goes that he didn't create ISIS per se but he left Iraq too early, before they were prepared to defend themselves, and ISIS was able to spread because of it. While there is truth to that (or at least that can be argued,) it kinda ignores the initial Iraq invasion and handling of the Iraqi Army afterwards (a huge factor in all of this)
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
it kinda ignores the initial Iraq invasion and handling of the Iraqi Army afterwards (a huge factor in all of this)

Not even kinda. Had they left Iraq alone, we wouldn't be seeing any of what's going on within their borders now.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 31):
Lockheed Martin, Rockwell, defence contracts..etc

And don't forget Halliburton....

They were one of the biggest winners of all time.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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seb146
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
The argument (I believe) goes that he didn't create ISIS per se but he left Iraq too early, before they were prepared to defend themselves, and ISIS was able to spread because of it.

Wasn't there a timeline in place for withdraw when Obama was inaugurated in 2008?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 38):
Wasn't there a timeline in place for withdraw when Obama was inaugurated in 2008?

It could have easily been moved and had a Republican president been in office, he/she might have pushed it back.

Not defending it, but don't pretend like President Obama was locked into a date and/or a GOP president would have withdrawn at the same time.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Jeb Bush's Duck Walk On Iraq

Sun May 17, 2015 2:33 am

http://www.salon.com/2011/10/21/about_that_iraq_withdrawal/


Here is a link which mentions the whole affair, what I remember was Iraq wanting us out, and their refusing to sign a status of forces agreement. They wanted our troops under their control as far as crimes etc.

[Edited 2015-05-16 19:54:38]
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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos