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scbriml
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F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Thu May 21, 2015 3:15 pm

Hello race fans. Well, it's only Thursday, but this being Monaco, that means it's practice day!

Hamilton seems to be determined to win this race and has stamped his authority all over FP1 and FP2, finishing 0.75s ahead of Rosberg:

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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Thu May 21, 2015 6:51 pm

The GPDA launched a survey earlier today. It didn't go as planned though:

Quoting Charles Bradley:

We've burned through three servers in one hour. Should be back online right now.

I don't think I have to mentioned that it is still down.    
So I guess the server hotel staff will get some overtime today.
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B747forever
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Thu May 21, 2015 6:56 pm

Really looking forward to this race as I walked the whole track last month when I was in Nice. Having been there it really gives you a sense of how tight the track is.
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Okie
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Fri May 22, 2015 1:18 am

Maybe just me but I find the GP2 at Monaco a lot more entertaining.
Much more action.
Unfortunately, I do not see it anywhere on Direct TV to record.

Okie
 
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Fri May 22, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 1):
The GPDA launched a survey earlier today. It didn't go as planned though:

It's working now.

Here's the link, for the benefit of anyone interested in participating:

http://gpda.motorsport.com/
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zkojq
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sat May 23, 2015 4:13 pm

Silly Rosberg....doing his lockup thing and going off track one session too early. He could have been pole again if he'd timed it better.  Wink

I feel really sorry for Button; would have been nice to have a McLaren in Quali 3 again. Despite that, because Grosjean and Sainz have received penalties, he will start 10th.

Very good performance for Sainz, to get 8th on first Monaco quali in F1. Unfortunately he has a penalty (for not stopping at the weigh station) and will start from pit lane.

Lewis's lap was incredible:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Really looking forward to this race as I walked the whole track last month when I was in Nice. Having been there it really gives you a sense of how tight the track is.

Yup. I've walked around it plenty of times; seeing the race on tv doesn't give you the proper perspective of just how high the descent towards the hairpin is. Similarly, Portier looks completely different in real life compared to what you see in the race on tv. Its incredible how different the place looks without all the armco barriers.

Quoting Okie (Reply 3):
Maybe just me but I find the GP2 at Monaco a lot more entertaining.

Won by a Kiwi (Richie Stanaway)! Its been ages and ages since I've heard our national anthem being played at Monaco.

[Edited 2015-05-23 09:17:56]
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photopilot
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 1:55 pm

OMG.... Hammy is going to be absolutely livid. What a blown call by Mercedes to make the late tyre change. Unless there was something we still don't know about.

3 in a row for Nico which is great and tightens up the championship.

And a well deserved 2nd for a great drive by Vettel.
 
B747forever
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 2:01 pm

Looking forward to the press conference 


Hamilton almost drove down that 3rd place sign when coming in with his car. He is MAD!!
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ltbewr
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 2:37 pm

How about the crash of the young Max V, from his in car camera ! I bet he got the scare of his life. It looks like the got cut off from passing bumped tires, broke the left front suspension, lost it. Thankfully the crash barrier system did a great job and he was able to walk away form that crash.

I wonder if 'team orders' were done to assure Nico the 3 in a row for him at Monaco. I wonder if the F1 stewards will take a look at that and penalize (doubt it). I wouldn't be surprised that Hamilton takes a less friendly attitude to his teammate.

Still one of the great races - I been watching it on TV for almost 50 years - at first a week later, then same-day delayed and for the late 20 or so, live. Now waiting for the Indy 500 around noon my time, then later the NASCAR 600 mile race.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):
OMG.... Hammy is going to be absolutely livid. What a blown call by Mercedes to make the late tyre change. Unless there was something we still don't know about.

Agreed.

However, some suggestion by Hamilton himself that he had some say in it. As I was watching, I couldn't believe it when I saw the Mercedes mechanics in the pit lane. It was never going to work.   
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wolbo
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 3:08 pm

All the action today came from Verstappen.
 
B747forever
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 8):
I wonder if 'team orders' were done to assure Nico the 3 in a row for him at Monaco

What would Mercedes win on that? The team aims for a 1-2 win. From the teams view, it really doesnt matter who finishes 1st and 2nd, at least not when both drivers can win the WDC.
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scbriml
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
What would Mercedes win on that? The team aims for a 1-2 win. From the teams view, it really doesnt matter who finishes 1st and 2nd, at least not when both drivers can win the WDC.

Exactly. The team lost points, it was a huge cock-up.
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B747forever
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):

The team lost points, it was a huge cock-up.

Something I wouldnt expect from such a team as Mercedes. According to the commentators on Sky this wasnt the first time they have messed up the timing of their pit stops. They kept referring to a similar situation in Malaysia this year. I have not seen that race, so dont really know how it went down there, however they better resolve this issue soon, or they could have an unfortunate impact on the outcome of the WDC for Rosberg/Hamilton.
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
However, some suggestion by Hamilton himself that he had some say in it.

Wolff saying they pitted him to protect Lewis from Vettel going onto super softs and they screwed the maths up. Ted Kravitz from Sky correctly pointed that as Ferrari mechanics were not out in the pits 'you weren't protecting from anything'.

Of course, Hamilton couldn't pass Vettel on new softs which further highlights how staggeringly awful the decision was. The car in front dictates everything in Monaco, as anybody who has ever watched the race over any period of time knows.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
They kept referring to a similar situation in Malaysia this year. I have not seen that race, so dont really know how it went down there, however they better resolve this issue soon, or they could have an unfortunate impact on the outcome of the WDC for Rosberg/Hamilton.

There was an early SC in Malaysia and Mercedes pitted their cars, but Ferrari left Vettel out and he went on to win the race.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 14):
Of course, Hamilton couldn't pass Vettel on new softs which further highlights how staggeringly awful the decision was.

Exactly. We've seen it so many times before at Monaco. If the guy in front doesn't want you to get past, it's very unlikely you will. I remember Mansell chasing down Senna on fresh rubber and making up a large gap in about five laps, then spent the last few laps following and unable to pass. Senna even admitted that at crucial places he'd actually slowed down to disrupt Mansell.
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flood
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
However, some suggestion by Hamilton himself that he had some say in it.

Certainly seems so, as Lewis stated in the press conference:

"You rely on the team. I saw a screen, it looked like the team was out and I thought that Nico had pitted. Obviously I couldn't see the guys behind so I thought the guys behind were pitting. The team said to stay out, I said “these tyres are going to drop in temperature,” and what I was assuming was that these guys would be on Options and I was on the harder tyre. So, they said to pit. Without thinking I came in with full confidence that the others had done the same."
http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-...ace-press-conference---monaco.html

Anyway, at least the fiasco provided some solid entertainment in an otherwise boring race  
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 16):
Certainly seems so, as Lewis stated in the press conference:

Yes, however what hasn't been explained is why ANYONE thought it was a good idea to pit - why were the crew even out? Given Vettel had no issue keeping a faster car with faster tyres behind, I have no reason to think Hamilton couldn't do the same. It was madness to pit then.

To me, this sounds like a situation where too many people are involved and a confused decision is made. When I saw the mechanics in the pit lane I was screaming at the TV "No, don't pit now!" It was painfully obvious he should stay out and the team will need to explain how, with all the additional information they have to hand, came to the opposite conclusion.
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 7:48 pm

Irrespective of what Hamilton thought in the drivers seat, the responsibility remains with the pit wall to manage his strategy.

If they actually were aware of the state of play they would simply have told Hamilton to stay out as he would in effect undercut himself, which is what happened. Whichever way you look at it, Mercedes royally screwed Hamilton.

If in doubt at Monaco, stay out !!
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larshjort
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 8:11 pm

In other news former Monaco Winner JPM wins his second Indy 500.
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
flood
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 18):
the responsibility remains with the pit wall

Absolutely, but to state

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 18):
Mercedes royally screwed Hamilton.

is ludicrous when Hamilton contributed to reaching the decision. Heck, he essentially initiated it.
He wanted to pit and was initially told to stay out.

At the end of the day, the pit wall is responsible. But the entire team botched this one. That includes the driver.
 
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 20):
is ludicrous when Hamilton contributed to reaching the decision.

And he was told to pit after Mercedes calculated he would remain in the lead to counter the phantom threat of Vettel on softs. The only way you can pin any blame on Hamilton is if the wall told him he would lose the lead and Hamilton insisted on stopping. That would have been ludicrous.

Mercedes haven't been falling over themselves to apologise to Hamilton because he's to blame in any way. He had a discussion with his engineer about stopping and was given the green light to do so by the strategists. This one's totally on Mercedes pit wall. A position Mercedes themselves agree with.
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flood
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 21):
He had a discussion with his engineer about stopping and was given the green light to do so by the strategists.

So the strategists green-lighted Lewis' dumb decision. Again, good job by all parties involved - including the driver.
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 10:00 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 22):
So the strategists green-lighted Lewis' dumb decision.

Toto Wolff: We’ve lost Lewis the grand prix with a mistake. We thought the gap was a different one than it actually was. It was a complete misjudgement. We screwed it up for him.'

Niki Lauda: ‘I feel sorry and I apologised to his engineers. This is for me unacceptable. To bring him in was completely wrong.’

Again, Mercedes disagree with you. Hamilton didn't demand to stop. Unless you're privy to some data which dispels what we know you appear to be the only one not grasping what actually occurred.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 10:31 pm

What a train wreck of a race, apart from the Mercedes fiasco it really is about time time was called on this event or race it in Formula Fords, then we'd get some real racing and overtaking.
 
B747forever
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 22):
So the strategists green-lighted Lewis' dumb decision.

As you self write, they gave the OK for Hamilton's pit stop. He just informed, as every driver does all the time, how the car felt at the time. He complained about the tires, and asked about a pit stop. When he did that, he rightfully expects the team to see where the other drivers are and what they are doing, and from there give a ok for a pit stop, or told that if he goes in he will lose the lead/track positions. I am sure that if he was told that Rosberg nor Vettel were going in, he would have stayed out.

The only one to blame in this case is Mercedes. Hamilton is at no fault at all for asking about a pit stop. It wasnt his decision to go in, it was Mercedes that decided that.
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flood
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 24, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 23):
Again, Mercedes disagree with you.

They do? I said it was their responsibility and it was obviously wrong to bring him in. What I don't agree with is your assertion that Lewis is essentially faultless as that simply doesn't jive with his involvement in the decision and his desire to pit in the first place.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 25):
I am sure that if he was told that Rosberg nor Vettel were going in, he would have stayed out.

Correct, yet he simply assumed they pitted. Communication fail on both sides.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 25):
It wasnt his decision to go in, it was Mercedes that decided that.

Mercedes had initially decided he should stay out. Hamilton wanting to come in, it stands to reason, helped them change their minds.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
What a train wreck of a race, apart from the Mercedes fiasco it really is about time time was called on this event

  
 
Okie
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 5):
Won by a Kiwi (Richie Stanaway)! Its been ages and ages since I've heard our national anthem being played at Monaco.

  
I found it and recorded it. Stanaway definitely dominated. The graphics/paint scheme was impressive as well on that car. That would be a green car.
Congrats to the Kiwi.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
What a train wreck of a race, apart from the Mercedes fiasco it really is about time time was called on this event or race it in Formula Fords, then we'd get some real racing and overtaking

That's why I watch the GP2 race at Monaco. Better racing from most aspects.

Okie
 
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zkojq
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 6:30 am

Cracking race by Sainz! Best driver of the race IMO. Started from the pit lane and finished 10th.....not that the director of the FOM coverage showed us much of it. He did a single pit stop: 63 laps on one set of tires.
I wonder how long the Sky commentators will be going on about 'the psychological advantage' for after today? Meanwhile, Hamilton fans have really been showing their class on Nico’s facebook page and the Mercedes AMG one too. http://bit.ly/1epoRJ6 I think it is really stupid the way that people are criticising Rosberg for celebrating the victory. The screw up was by Hamilton’s strategists and the win was for Rosberg to claim. Rosberg was very gracious on the podium. Fact is that racing is racing and sometimes screw-ups happen. Mercedes’ strategists have cost Rosberg wins in the past. I thought that Hamilton’s “I'll have to win the next one” and “we win as a team and loose as a team” comments were well placed. Racing is racing. His refusal to be part of the Mercedes team photo, wasn’t very sportsman like. Rosberg has been part of previous photos, even though he has been visibly upset at the team for the result.

We hear plenty of complaints about team orders, but Red bull gave a textbook example of how they should be used. I would imagine that had certain other drivers been in the same situation (cough AMG) the lead driver wouldn’t have given the position back.

McLaren Honda finally got some points! Also, we had a whole race with no Renault engine failures! First one of the season, I believe.

The disappointment in Verstappen’s voice after the crash was awful. I guess all rookies will crash at some point in their first year though (except Max Chilton). He will get a five place grid penalty for the next race. Verstappen says that Grosjean brake tested him:

Quote:
Verstappen is not happy. Says Grosjean braked 10 to 15 metres earlier than on the previous lap. Brake tested him. Otherwise he's sore but ok
http://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/status/602490434930221057

Grosjean was on old tyres though, so probably needed to brake a little earlier.
An honourable mention needs to be given to the suspension on Grosjean’s car. After his accident with Verstappen, he was able to continue the race without a visit to the pits. Clearly lotus have been doing their best to Maldonado-proof the cars.

More humor from GVDG:

Quote:
At least I can say I got as many F1 points as Alonso so far this season...
http://twitter.com/GvanderGarde/status/602460745494876160
http://twitter.com/GvanderGarde/status/602460816089178112

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
Hamilton almost drove down that 3rd place sign when coming in with his car. He is MAD!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6OmwWVGkGo&feature=youtu.be

Quoting wolbo (Reply 10):
All the action today came from Verstappen.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
it really is about time time was called on this event or race it in Formula Fords, then we'd get some real racing and overtaking.

Weren't you listening to Kimi's epic radio messages?   Seriously though, there was overtaking, just not upfront. Pity that the FOM feed spent most of the race focusing on Lewis, Nico and Seb who were all very stale in terms of overtaking. A real botch up by whoever was the director.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 14):
Wolff saying they pitted him to protect Lewis from Vettel going onto super softs and they screwed the maths up. Ted Kravitz from Sky correctly pointed that as Ferrari mechanics were not out in the pits 'you weren't protecting from anything'.

What? Who are those mysterious men in red standing outside the Ferrari garage which says ‘Scuderia Ferrari’ on the side? This was a few seconds before Hamilton reached Rascasse.

http://i.imgur.com/EEvzjVc.jpg

Very, very clever move by the Ferrari crew! Tricked Mercedes into pitting and gained Seb an extra spot and some more points.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
However, some suggestion by Hamilton himself that he had some say in it. As I was watching, I couldn't believe it when I saw the Mercedes mechanics in the pit lane.
Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 14):

Of course, Hamilton couldn't pass Vettel on new softs which further highlights how staggeringly awful the decision was. The car in front dictates everything in Monaco, as anybody who has ever watched the race over any period of time knows.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 17):
Given Vettel had no issue keeping a faster car with faster tyres behind, I have no reason to think Hamilton couldn't do the same. It was madness to pit then.

There’s a few factors at play here, though. Firstly, I believe this is the first ever race where we’ve had a transition from Virtual Safety Car to 'normal' Safety Car, so I think that caused some confusion to the strategists. Additionally, the team didn’t know how long the safety car period would be…. There were six laps of safety car (crash was on lap 64, safety car returned lap 70), but there could have been much less. Verstappen’s car was lifted away on lap 65. It appears that most of the time spent under safety car, the marshals were not removing Verstappen’s car from Sainte-Dévote, but rather doing what they could to repair the damage to the tire barriers. The barrier there is four layers of tyres thick – for good reason, as we saw! There is also the Sauber factor: Hamilton had to hold in his pit box for a while to let a Sauber pass, which would have been enough to make the difference between Hamilton reentering the race ahead or behind Seb (http://bit.ly/1HFrNLe). Hamilton’s stop was 4.1 seconds, which is a second or so longer than normal.
In previous races, Hamilton has made it clear that he doesn’t like the team talking to him in corners, so communication was probably minimal. When he complained about his tyres, it could have been inferred that he was about to go off the tyre cliff. There was very little time for Mercedes’ strategists to make a decision.

When we put all of this together; There is a conceivable chance that the safety car period could have been much shorter, allowing Vettel to get new rubber, but long enough for everyone else’s tyres to go cold with the added factor that Mercedes may have inferred that Hamilton was getting close to the tyre cliff with twelve laps to go. If Mercedes’ (incorrect) calculation suggested that Hamilton could pit and still be in first upon re-entry, maybe it wasn’t such a crazy idea. At the end of the day, mistakes happen. In this case it was a particularly painful one.

Ferrari strategists have dropped the ball in two races this season, in both cases leaving Seb out too long on bad tires, which has stopped the undercut from working. Here at Monaco, Seb’s race was partially screwed by Ferrari keeping him out a lap too long. As Ted Kravitz pointed out, on his in-lap he was held up by Merhi, which meant that he re-entered the race behind Rosberg. Had Ferrari not screwed that one up, Seb could have re-entered second and won the race (though as Mercedes’ decision to pit Hamilton was partially based on Vettel’s position, maybe not). You could say that both Seb and Hamilton’s strategists cost them the win.
It might be worth mentioning that, at the time, Sky commentators said that it might be worth protecting from the Vettel threat and, as Hamilton was going down pit land, Brundle said ‘I think he will be ok’. Thus, their particularly harsh criticism of Mercedes after the race bugs me somewhat.

Also, it is stupid that the Safety Car tries to catch the winning driver (in this case Hamilton) but lets all the lapped drivers drive straight past it. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of the Safety Car?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 17):
To me, this sounds like a situation where too many people are involved and a confused decision is made

   When you have a larger number of people giving their input, it makes it really difficult when you are under time pressure.

Quoting flood (Reply 20):
Heck, he essentially initiated it.
He wanted to pit and was initially told to stay out.

Hamilton doesn’t even seem to follow advice from the pitwall a lot of the time. Last race he was very hostile towards them for suggesting that pushing hard was pointless. As mentioned above, Hamilton can be quite hostile when he gets talked to in the corners, which will mean that the pit wall communicates with him less frequently.

Quoting flood (Reply 20):
At the end of the day, the pit wall is responsible. But the entire team botched this one. That includes the driver.

Yup. He could have stayed out, but he followed the advice of the team. His team usually gets things right, but today they screwed up.

Quoting Okie (Reply 27):
I found it and recorded it. Stanaway definitely dominated. The graphics/paint scheme was impressive as well on that car. That would be a green car.
Congrats to the Kiwi.

Quite a good race, I thought. Didn’t realise Stanaway was a Kiwi until after he crossed the finish line.
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teme82
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 9:25 am

Just adding my few cent's to this Hamilton thing..

If I saw it correctly there was Sauber rolling down the pit lane when Hamilton's stop was finished. So they needed to let it pass before let Hamilton back to the race.
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
What? Who are those mysterious men in red standing outside the Ferrari garage which says ‘Scuderia Ferrari’ on the side?

That would be a couple of crewman holding in the gun air hoses to stop the just serviced Williams (the mysterious white car in your image! ) from catching it with its front. This happens on every pit stop.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
Very, very clever move by the Ferrari crew! Tricked Mercedes into pitting and gained Seb an extra spot and some more points.

Nope. The rules were changed a number of years ago to stop 'fake' stops. From the regulations:

Team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before they are required to work
on a car and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.

Odd that Ferrari were going to conduct a pit stop with only two mechanics and no tyres in the pit box.

Quoting flood (Reply 26):
They do?

Yes. Quite clearly.

Quoting flood (Reply 26):
What I don't agree with is your assertion that Lewis is essentially faultless as that simply doesn't jive with his involvement in the decision and his desire to pit in the first place.

In this case he is. The only way Hamilton is at fault is if he knew he wouldn't retain the lead and still boxed. Your reliance on a radio discussion when the team didn't actually know what was going on, gave an incorrect direction to their driver and feared a Vettel stop (which by the way would still have required him to pass both Rosberg and Hamilton, at MONACO) to blame Hamilton in some way is baffling.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
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zkojq
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 11:42 am

Bernie seems to be being petty again:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ro...berg-i-won-t-change-for-ecclestone


Quoting teme82 (Reply 29):
If I saw it correctly there was Sauber rolling down the pit lane when Hamilton's stop was finished. So they needed to let it pass before let Hamilton back to the race.

Yes. Frustrating and hard for Mercedes to work into their calculations.
http://i.imgur.com/Ho9TGv5.jpg

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 30):
Odd that Ferrari were going to conduct a pit stop with only two mechanics and no tires in the pit box.

Who says they weren't still assessing whether it was worthwhile? At that point, Seb was still in the tunnel.

[Edited 2015-05-25 04:46:27]
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 31):
Who says they weren't still assessing whether it was worthwhile?

Because a basic perusal of the lap charts shows Kvyat and Raikonnen 19 and 20 seconds respectively behind Vettel on lap 65, the lap of the lead changeover. He could have come out fifth.

Cannot understand why people are overthinking this. Mercedes messed Hamilton up, by their own admission, overreacting to threats that didn't exist.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 4:04 pm

I was in Monaco for F1 Thursday to Sunday, as every year.
I ran into the "big names" at some stage or other during my stay. Most of them I did not even pay much attention to.
This year was quite different. There was definitely some missing elements. Can't tell exactly what, but it was definitely not the same.

Hammy should have won the race. I am sure he will catch up during the rest of the season. I can trust him.

Quoting Okie (Reply 3):
Maybe just me but I find the GP2 at Monaco a lot more entertaining.
Much more action.
Unfortunately, I do not see it anywhere on Direct TV to record.

Okie

100% agree
Again this year, GP2 was a lot more exciting and fun to be around and watch than F1.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
The disappointment in Verstappen’s voice after the crash was awful. I guess all rookies will crash at some point in their first year though (except Max Chilton). He will get a five place grid penalty for the next race. Verstappen says that Grosjean brake tested him:

Quote:
Verstappen is not happy. Says Grosjean braked 10 to 15 metres earlier than on the previous lap. Brake tested him. Otherwise he's sore but ok
http://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/status/602490434930221057

Grosjean was on old tyres though, so probably needed to brake a little earlier.
An honourable mention needs to be given to the suspension on Grosjean’s car. After his accident with Verstappen, he was able to continue the race without a visit to the pits. Clearly lotus have been doing their best to Maldonado-proof the cars.

We now have crashStappen.

I hope this will end the constant Pastor Maldonado mocking.
Pastor is very talented and also the nicest human being and the most low-key that can be met in F1.

My thoughts were with Jules 100% of the time when I was in the area.
Poor Jules is at Hopital Pasteur in such a dire condition. I did not see any visible Jules support banners among the fans neither did I see any for Schumi while there were lots for the current drivers.


           
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Aesma
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Mon May 25, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 22):
So the strategists green-lighted Lewis' dumb decision. Again, good job by all parties involved - including the driver.

The driver doesn't know the gaps, in fact even the team didn't :

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 23):
Toto Wolff: We’ve lost Lewis the grand prix with a mistake. We thought the gap was a different one than it actually was. It was a complete misjudgement. We screwed it up for him.'
Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
Cracking race by Sainz! Best driver of the race IMO. Started from the pit lane and finished 10th

Helped by his teammate screwing Romain Grosjean over.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
We hear plenty of complaints about team orders, but Red bull gave a textbook example of how they should be used. I would imagine that had certain other drivers been in the same situation (cough AMG) the lead driver wouldn’t have given the position back.

Mercedes wouldn't be in this situation because neither driver would let the other pass.
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bill142
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Tue May 26, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
Very, very clever move by the Ferrari crew! Tricked Mercedes into pitting and gained Seb an extra spot and some more points.

What you saw was two Ferrari mechanics holding back their air hoses so the car entering or exiting the adjacent box doesn't run over them. It happens at every race. Watch closely next time and you will see.
 
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Tue May 26, 2015 7:01 am

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 32):
Cannot understand why people are overthinking this.

It is more productive to try and assess what factors may have been behind such a call, rather than just making fun of Mercedes for screwing up.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 32):
Mercedes messed Hamilton up, by their own admission

Sure.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
crashStappen

Verstoppin.  
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
Pastor is very talented

   Well not so much as far as driving is concerned.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
Mercedes wouldn't be in this situation because neither driver would let the other pass.

Exactly, their drivers have too much ego to let that happen. Which if they were in a similar situation to Red Bull, could mean they don't get to maximize points.

In Red Bulls case this weekend they got 10 + 12 points (22) for finishing fourth and fifth.
If Ricardo had been successful, they would have got 10 + 15 points (25) for finishing third and fifth.
If they both had a battle with each other and crashed out, that's zero points (though I guess Sainz would get a few more).
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Kiwirob
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Tue May 26, 2015 10:22 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 36):
Well not so much as far as driving is concerned.

Since he's a pay for a drive guy, he doesn't heed talent just money.
 
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Tue May 26, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 36):
It is more productive to try and assess what factors may have been behind such a call, rather than just making fun of Mercedes for screwing up.

Unless you are aware of more than what is known, the factors behind the call are clear. A Mercedes overreaction to phantom threats allied with incorrect track data leading to a strategic misstep.

What isn't helpful is to insert ill-informed theories like clever Ferrari pit shenanigans when nothing of the sort occurred using an image which doesn't even support the theory itself.
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CXB77L
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Tue May 26, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 19):
In other news former Monaco Winner JPM wins his second Indy 500.

Congrats. I was a fan of Montoya when he was driving for Williams. I remain convinced that had he stuck with F1 he would've been world champion. Alas, it wasn' to be.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
What a train wreck of a race, apart from the Mercedes fiasco it really is about time time was called on this event or race it in Formula Fords, then we'd get some real racing and overtaking.

Sigh ...

I couldn't disagree more. Monaco is the jewel in the crown of Formula 1. Yes, there isn't a lot of overtaking in Monaco, yes it's almost impossible and Monaco Grands Prix have been pretty much a procession since the early 2000s. But it just wouldn't be Formula 1 without a Monaco Grand Prix, irrespective of whether there's any overtaking on the track. F1's history and heritage demands it.

Frankly, if you find it that boring, why watch it at all?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
We now have crashStappen.

I hope this will end the constant Pastor Maldonado mocking.
Pastor is very talented and also the nicest human being and the most low-key that can be met in F1.

By whose standards? Maldonado is probably a much better driver than you or I could hope to be, but he isn't great by F1 standards. If he didn't have PDVSA backing, chances are he wouldn't even be in Formula 1.

Verstappen, on the other hand, is a very talented driver and I have no doubt that he'll be world champion one day. Something Maldonado will never achieve.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
Helped by his teammate screwing Romain Grosjean over.

Nothing that Grosjean himself hasn't done before. I thought his radio call abusing Verstappen was somewhat hypocritical given his past as the 'first lap nutcase'.
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Tue May 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
When we put all of this together; There is a conceivable chance that the safety car period could have been much shorter, allowing Vettel to get new rubber, but long enough for everyone else’s tyres to go cold with the added factor that Mercedes may have inferred that Hamilton was getting close to the tyre cliff with twelve laps to go.

The point is though that in Monaco track position is king. The risk is always going to be in pitting, not in staying out. If there's any doubt at all you stay out.

I'd agree with you on basically any other track on the calendar, but here the call wasn't marginal, it was clearly wrong.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 28):
As mentioned above, Hamilton can be quite hostile when he gets talked to in the corners, which will mean that the pit wall communicates with him less frequently.

Not talking in the corners is a pretty basic responsibility of the race engineer. All drivers get annoyed if they're distracted in the corners.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 36):
Exactly, their drivers have too much ego to let that happen. Which if they were in a similar situation to Red Bull, could mean they don't get to maximize points.

That's nothing to do with it. The Mercedes drivers are fighting for the WDC, the Red Bull drivers are not. It's easy to follow team orders if there's no championship at stake.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 37):
Since he's a pay for a drive guy, he doesn't heed talent just money.

He may not be the best out there, but you still need a decent level of talent just to get into F1. I don't think anybody in the paddock denies he is a fast driver- just rather too wild on occasion.

Coming into the sport with sponsorship money doesn't necessarily mean you have no talent. Look at Alonso.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
I couldn't disagree more. Monaco is the jewel in the crown of Formula 1. Yes, there isn't a lot of overtaking in Monaco, yes it's almost impossible and Monaco Grands Prix have been pretty much a procession since the early 2000s. But it just wouldn't be Formula 1 without a Monaco Grand Prix, irrespective of whether there's any overtaking on the track. F1's history and heritage demands it.

Precisely. The joy of Monaco is seeing F1 cars speeding through the streets at a gazillion miles an hour, two inches from the barriers. Monaco on-board shots are incredible to watch.

The calendar can afford one race with no overtaking. Everybody's way too obsessed with overtaking anyway. If you want to watch overtaking there are plenty of other series where it happens several hundred times in one race.
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zkojq
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Wed May 27, 2015 8:17 am

Toto Wolf, who was doing a Twitter Q & A yesterday:

Quote:

We told him to stay out and Lewis said "not good" & that the tyres had lost temperature (1/2)

(2/2) We had one second to react and, combined with our wrong timing data, we made the mistake of calling him in #AskToto
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603250565385183233?p=p
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603250732092018688?p=p

Quote:
TW: We have a strict radio protocol and structure how our decisions are made. This is how we've won so many races
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603244728457568257?p=p

Quote:
Under Safety Car you need 12 secs gap to maintain position. Our system showed us that we had that gap
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603242949913239552?p=p

Quote:
TW: Vettel still had an opportunity to stop as he had not caught the Safety Car
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603243083023687680?p=p

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 37):
Since he's a pay for a drive guy, he doesn't heed talent just money.

Yup. That's how his Monaco ban (for nearly killing a marshal) went away.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 38):
pit shenanigans
http://twitter.com/yourKOOB/status/603211960163917825
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603252207828500480?p=p

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
I couldn't disagree more. Monaco is the jewel in the crown of Formula 1. Yes, there isn't a lot of overtaking in Monaco, yes it's almost impossible and Monaco Grands Prix have been pretty much a procession since the early 2000s. But it just wouldn't be Formula 1 without a Monaco Grand Prix, irrespective of whether there's any overtaking on the track. F1's history and heritage demands it.

  

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
If he didn't have PDVSA backing, chances are he wouldn't even be in Formula 1.

Chances? I think its fairly certain.  
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
The point is though that in Monaco track position is king. The risk is always going to be in pitting, not in staying out. If there's any doubt at all you stay out.

From Toto Wolf:

Quote:
It's true, there's almost no overtaking in Monaco. But Ricciardo took Super Softs and overtook Kimi.
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603253590019481600?p=p

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
I'd agree with you on basically any other track on the calendar, but here the call wasn't marginal, it was clearly wrong.

I'm not disputing that it was wrong. I was describing a set of assumptions/potential circumstances that Merc may have assumed in the confusion of their decision making process, which would have made the decision less wrong/more right.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
Not talking in the corners is a pretty basic responsibility of the race engineer.

I'm certainly not disputing this. My point is that on a track like Monaco, which is mostly corners, that leaves a much more limited window for when driver and pitwall can communicate. Thus more inferences/assumptions are likely to be drawn from what Lewis does say, rather than asking him directly.... When he complains about tires they might assume for themselves how serious the situation is, rather than immediately asking something along the lines of 'how many laps do you think they can hold out for?'

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
All drivers get annoyed if they're distracted in the corners.

Certainly. Sainz was complaining about this in China (I believe the radio message coincided with a spin).

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
That's nothing to do with it. The Mercedes drivers are fighting for the WDC, the Red Bull drivers are not. It's easy to follow team orders if there's no championship at stake.

Hence my:

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 36):
if they were in a similar situation to Red Bull

Regarding team orders and Mercedes:
http://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/603238901688438784

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
He may not be the best out there, but you still need a decent level of talent just to get into F1.

   and money. In Maldonado's case he won the GP2 championship in 2010, I believe. No doubt he is a better driver than any of us here, but I'm sure there are loads of people in GP2 (and other feeder series) who could do a better job than him. Despite my constant criticism of the guy, I wouldn't want him to leave F1. He provides valuable entertainment.
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notaxonrotax
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Wed May 27, 2015 10:07 am

Haven't seen the race due to working commitments!
I will HAVE to watch Canada now after missing the last 2 races, it happens to be one of my very favorites on the calendar!

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 39):
F1's history and heritage demands it.

Agreed!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
We now have crashStappen.

That is fair.....attack a guy who did great so far in his rookie season and just happened to have his first crash; due to controversial causes!
And of course, defend Maldonado.......a driving accident waiting to happen; and that is based on many MANY accidents and incidents!

You express some strange opinions sometimes......

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TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Wed May 27, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 41):
http://twitter.com/yourKOOB/status/603211960163917825
http://mobile.twitter.com/MercedesAM...0?p=p

What do you actually think you're proving here? Mercedes crew came into the box and serviced Hamilton as they were obliged to do or be penalised. Ferrari stayed in the garage as Mercedes should have done. All the twitter links your posting prove is how Mercedes rumped Hamilton because they relied on bad data to instruct their driver.

Either post evidence of how Ferrari were 'very,very clever' or let the matter drop.

From planet f1:

Asked if they considered pitting Vettel, Arrivabene replied: "No, actually it was the opposite and we were nervous at the beginning thinking about them to pit. We were looking for the window and our strategist said: 'We stay cool, they are doing a kind of show'.

"In any case, he said that if they come in then we would stay out. He was really straightforward on this and he was right. I know that we were lucky [to get second], I'm not telling you something different.

"[But] in my opinion, they were a bit too much convinced about their power. I recognise they are very intelligent and stronger than us, but this time we were smarter."

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/...rivabene-We-were-smarter-than-Merc
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Thu May 28, 2015 8:09 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos...ata-helps-lewis-hamilton-win-races

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 43):
Mercedes crew came into the box and serviced Hamilton as they were obliged to do or be penalised.

What penalty do they get if the crew went out and didn't service Hamilton (or Rosberg)?

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 43):
Either post evidence of how Ferrari were 'very,very clever' or let the matter drop.

Consider the matter is dropped. In this case it seems not pitting Vettel was very, very clever of Ferrari.

[Edited 2015-05-28 01:15:11]
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Thu May 28, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 44):
In this case it seems not pitting Vettel was very, very clever of Ferrari.

No really.   

Not pitting was obviously the right thing, and I'm not saying that with the benefit of hindsight. When I saw Mercedes were going to pit Hamilton, I was screaming at the TV that it was wrong.

It was very, very dumb of Mercedes to pit Hamilton.
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TristarAtLCA
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Thu May 28, 2015 9:56 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 44):
What penalty do they get if the crew went out and didn't service Hamilton (or Rosberg)?

It would be a pit lane violation, so a stop go would be likely such as for unsafe release. Its interesting to note no team has actually done it yet.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 44):
In this case it seems not pitting Vettel was very, very clever of Ferrari.

Considering he would have come out fifth if he pitted, no, it wasn't. It was the only option available to them.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 45):
It was very, very dumb of Mercedes to pit Hamilton.

  
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 31, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 42):
And of course, defend Maldonado.......a driving accident waiting to happen; and that is based on many MANY accidents and incidents!

You express some strange opinions sometimes......

Pastor is a race winner. He beat Alonso with his Ferrari - which is no small deal. Talk about big money here.
Many a F1 driver have never won any races. A countless number of them.

Let's wait and see how many seasons it will take crashStappen to be a race winner. Then we can talk.

You may make fun of him and his crashes but he's racing in F1 and we are not. If you think you're better than him, I can't wait to see you take his seat next season.

Every F1 driver have got sponsors to back them. Without sponsors, you don't drive. I'd love to see any team hire a driver without any sponsors backing them to bring money to the table.

                    
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notaxonrotax
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 31, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 47):
Let's wait and see how many seasons it will take crashStappen to be a race winner. Then we can talk.

My point exactly.
Way too early to be mocking Verstappen.
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Aesma
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RE: F1: Monaco Grand Prix

Sun May 31, 2015 11:33 pm

If Mercedes realized quickly their mistake, could they have ordered Hamilton to not stop to change tires and instead drive on ? Because that would have been enough to keep the victory.
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