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flymia
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 99):

The state could had redacted it more. I do t care if its someo famous or anyone else, its obvious who some of the victims are, it shouldn't be so easy to find out. Could not care less about details about the suspect, keep his name in, show what he did, but the victims deserve privacy no matter who they are.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:55 am

The State of Arkansas might be blameless.

according to InTouch magazine who interviewed the pedophile policeman who took the report, Mr. Duggar called him and told him he was bring Josh in. So Mr. Duggar purposely sought out this pedophile to file the report.

In the fox interview Mr. Duggar said he was randomly assigned a pedophile.


According to the police dept. Mr. Duggar refused to bring Josh in for a follow up interview. He instead told the police that Josh had lawyer ed up and would not be talking. We all know the statue of limitation then ran out.At this point, social service should had to be involved, I suspect they already were because Oprah did call social service on them.

I suspect social service made sure those girls got counseling and that Josh was removed from the home to do the remodeling of the bathroom.


when Josh reached 19 he could of had the social service case sealed, but he couldn't have the police report sealed because he was never charged because he refused to cooperate.

I would of loved for Megan Kelly to asked them about social services role in all this. Just to ease my mind that this family was forced into getting much needed professional counseling.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:37 am

Let us not forget this family home schools their kids and for sure has a huge negative attitude toward government at all levels - unless getting money and other subsidies from them. They were unlikely to turn their offending son in to police or allow the assaulted daughters to report to police but for that the non-family babysitter was assaulted. They for sure had a somewhat understandable fear of social services of them breaking up their family. The non-family woman that was assaulted by Josh is apparently the only one to report to the police as not part of the Dugger 'cult' and knew that reporting to the police was the right thing to do. Clearly the local police and authorities showed little interest in going after a family that was likely bringing in many $1000's of dollars in local spending by the show's producers, supporting a 'good Christian family' from their area and not wanting to destroy that gold mine.
The best way out is to terminate this show, including reruns, the family realize they are far from perfect and look at themselves, their religious beliefs and just go away. Josh is all over the internet as a sex offender and the family a bunch of extremists. People have very little tolerance toward sex offenders and now the Duggers are now finding that out .
 
Mir
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 89):
I feel bad for the sisters that now have to deal with this all over again.

So do I. But make no mistake, that's of the Duggars' doing, and nobody else. If they hadn't been so active in spreading their morality rhetoric, this wouldn't be a fraction of the story it is.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
D L X
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 100):
Could not care less about details about the suspect, keep his name in, show what he did, but the victims deserve privacy no matter who they are.

It's a different crime when it involves family members, so just mentioning that it was family will narrow the list enough to figure out who is likely the victim. (But again, if the Duggars weren't such fame whores, you wouldn't know who the victims are.)

Quoting Mir (Reply 103):
So do I. But make no mistake, that's of the Duggars' doing, and nobody else. If they hadn't been so active in spreading their morality rhetoric, this wouldn't be a fraction of the story it is.

  
AND the Duggars are still at it. They could have slinked away quietly into obscurity, and be forgotten in a few months time. But they've chosen to do interviews and to attempt to protect and continue the show. They've once again put $$$ above their daughters' safety and privacy. So it's probably past time to stop being angry at the release of the information when the Duggars are taking it and running with it.
 
mham001
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 95):
The police report says "FORCIBLE" many times, including on the first page. The statute says penetration, "however slight" and does not limit said penetration to a male's penis. It also does not limit it to being under a victim's clothes. I'm showing you the roadmap, but you refuse to examine the possibility.

You were also given the Arkansas definition of deviate activity. There has been zero evidence, did you see that? - ZERO evidence of rape. That you are getting me to defend a child molester simply points to your blind stumble towards obsession. You and the doctor have done nothing in this thread but spread viscous gossip, and it affects the victims.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 96):
Sure it is, minors can't consent. The law is quite clear on that. Even if they claimed to be "willing participants," the law says otherwise. d.

You missed the point as well. We all know minors cannot legally consent. The comment was in regards to the question of why the sisters are defending him, not the legalities, and why aren't the non-familial victims pursuing him? I am saying there are a myriad of reasons why that may be. One of those could be that they were or became willing participants. That is all.

DLX has been good enough to provide us 2(!) vivid examples of why victims choose to keep things to themselves...

Quoting D L X (Reply 69):
I think the police report supports the possibility of fitting 8b. It's certainly indictable.

1. Every time a victim walks down the street (remember, they were not all his sisters), the viscious bitties known as the town gossips are going to say "pssst, she might have been raped..."

Quoting D L X (Reply 95):
I hope you and they both get the help you need.

2. Some jackass is going to use the information against the victim in some way, as DLX has done here. It's a given.

Some people will look for whatever way possible to feel superior over others, anybody. Gossip and rumors involving the pain of others is one of the oldest and most destructive ways of doing that.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:27 pm

I'll actually go out on an unpopular limb and say that he was wrong but a stupid kid and kids do dumb things (still wrong, don't mistake that,) the family didn't go through the "proper" legal channels (just like 95% of any parents in their situation,) and that dragging them through the dirt is unneeded and unproductive.

All that being said, I do however think it's completely appropriate to knock down the holier than thou attitude of someone who did a horrible thing and bashes gays and implies awful, untrue things about them (being on the Family Research Council.) Also, not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread or if I saw it somewhere else, but this really makes you wonder why the father supported capital punishment during his Senate run, after this incident IIRC...

Hypocrites, the whole lot of them. I'd keep the debate focused on that rather than a huge trollfest
 
luckyone
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106):
All that being said, I do however think it's completely appropriate to knock down the holier than thou attitude of someone who did a horrible thing and bashes gays and implies awful, untrue things about them (being on the Family Research Council.) Also, not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread or if I saw it somewhere else, but this really makes you wonder why the father supported capital punishment during his Senate run, after this incident IIRC...

I agree, and I've tried to say as such that my biggest beef is with the parents. I actually feel sorry for the kid, growing up brainwashed in that loony bin. I think the parenting methods may have contributed to the victimization of their daughters. I mean really...he's a horny 14 year-old who can't look at magazines, can't watch television, internet speeds may have still been slow in that part of Arkansas in 2002 anyway, and he has been forced to sleep on top of his siblings. They largely have no contact with anyone outside of their family or like-minded fundies, and even that limited contact is "chaperoned." And at the age this was occurring the Duggars were living in a house that five people would feel cramped in. There's nowhere for him to go. At the same time even horny 14 year-olds don't normally get the urge to touch prepubescent 5 year-olds. That's the part that bugs me. The parents didn't do him any favors, and he didn't do himself any favors by joining the FRC.
 
Mir
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 104):
They could have slinked away quietly into obscurity, and be forgotten in a few months time. But they've chosen to do interviews and to attempt to protect and continue the show.

I don't think even trying to slink away into obscurity would have saved them. If they'd not presented themselves as holier-than-thou, then they'd have been helping themselves.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 105):
1. Every time a victim walks down the street (remember, they were not all his sisters), the viscious bitties known as the town gossips are going to say "pssst, she might have been raped..."

What kind of sick person would hold the fact that someone might have been raped against them? Last time I checked, rape wasn't voluntary on the part of the victim. That's approaching fundamentalist Islam territory, and we shouldn't feel any need to appeal to such deranged sensibilities.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106):
I'll actually go out on an unpopular limb and say that he was wrong but a stupid kid and kids do dumb things

I don't think that's actually that unpopular an opinion. Anyone who would crucify him over the act he committed in and of itself isn't really being honest with themselves - he was a kid at the time and kids do stupid things. Where the problem arises is that he, knowing what he did, decided to be a representative of an organization that presents themselves as morally superior and presents other groups as potential child molesters. He had a great chance to bring a "judge not lest ye be judged" message when it came to potential child molesters, and instead chose to judge. Well, if he's going to judge, he shall himself be judged, and harshly so given the rhetoric the organization he represents has used to describe completely innocent people.

The same can be said for his parents, who have also made careers of placing themselves and their family on a pedestal at the expense of others - they too are now getting judged.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 107):
I agree, and I've tried to say as such that my biggest beef is with the parents. I actually feel sorry for the kid, growing up brainwashed in that loony bin.

Maybe I don't understand brainwashing very well, but at some point you have to start using your own brain.

I was raised with a certain set of values and beliefs. Some of them I can defend and others I can't. So I've abandoned those I can't.

Quoting Mir (Reply 108):
The same can be said for his parents, who have also made careers of placing themselves and their family on a pedestal at the expense of others - they too are now getting judged.

A high pedestal. And that fall from it is a long one. Had to hurt. Won't get my sympathy.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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luckyone
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
Maybe I don't understand brainwashing very well, but at some point you have to start using your own brain.

I was raised with a certain set of values and beliefs. Some of them I can defend and others I can't. So I've abandoned those I can't.

You went to school with others. You went to college. Where you were taught how to think. Josh Duggar spent his entire life until he was aged 20 living in a controlled environment. The education system in Arkansas isn't the great to begin with, and he was educated by two parents who sound like they barely finished high school. It's nice to think he should use his brain, but he's been taught from day one that anything but obedience is a bad thing. It's not likely to happen.
 
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seb146
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:15 am

I don't get these people who support Josh Duggar. I mean, if he had done it once, it would still be bad but not really an issue. But five different sisters of his over how long of a period? I am still wondering how many other victims there are?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:15 pm

I'm also wondering why everyone is giving him a pass because religion and all. Would they say the same thing if he was a Muslim and asked Allah for forgiveness? Would an Atheist Josh Duggar be forever unforgivable? How exactly has he paid for his crimes by asking for Jesus for forgiveness and again, what if he just asked himself internally, in a secular sense, for forgiveness?

Too often do we see Christians (and other religions) forgive the greatest crimes because they "found Jesus." What good is that exactly, and how is it better than someone doing the same exact thing without Jesus (which would not garner near the same amount of support)?
 
mham001
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 108):
What kind of sick person would hold the fact that someone might have been raped against them?

It took this one less than 30 minutes to make the condescending comment.....

Quoting D L X (Reply 95):
I hope you ....... get the help you need.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 112):
I'm also wondering why everyone is giving him a pass because religion and all.

I have not seen that, is that on TV somewhere? Who is everyone? I would give him, not a pass, but a yellow card because of his age. I was with a girl 12 or 13 when I was 14, maybe 15. That is not uncommon. We were also sometimes resisting resistance (illegal force) and often made moves towards breasts and whatnot. At that age boys will hump anything that walks and I see it as it is classified - a curious teenager exploring. If he had been 20 or 40 - different story.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 113):
I would give him, not a pass, but a yellow card because of his age. I was with a girl 12 or 13 when I was 14, maybe 15. That is not uncommon. We were also sometimes resisting resistance (illegal force) and often made moves towards breasts and whatnot. At that age boys will hump anything that walks and I see it as it is classified - a curious teenager exploring. If he had been 20 or 40 - different story.

These are dangerous paths that you walk, but I will agree in general with you.

While not "forgivable" in most senses it is something that "is", The question is does the person seek help, accept and and address the problem. And the victim(s) never have to forgive the perpetrator, even if they move on and recover (and live with the perpetrator). People here castigate the parents but it cannot be an easy or even logical situation to handle and live with (logic and emotion are often in conflict). Things happen in life, awful things, and people handle them as best they can and attempt to move on and live a good life having learned. Often the level of the "wrong" precludes this or the impacts on the victims does. But with some 25% of perpetrators of these types of acts being teens, the problems have occurred in probably a lot more families than we think, probably people we know. And I cannot castigate all of them.

This article was an interesting little read:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ight-thing-about-sex-abuse-n369836

Quote:
the system is designed to push parents to one of two extremes: dealing with an abuse case themselves, with no help from authorities, or opening up their child to a label that may follow them for the rest of their life.

"We don't have a middle ground," she said. "And this case shows you why we have to dial back the emotion and the hysteria."

Where things fall apart in this situation are the multiple people/victims and times that it happened. And then throw in the mix the very public "moral examples" that Josh and his family attempted to hold and make (without acknowledging these actions), when he had no basis to do such. He was just being a bully and hypocrite and not living with the consequences of his wrongs. He has earned the rebukes he is receiving.

Tugg

[Edited 2015-06-06 11:01:27]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:34 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 113):
I have not seen that, is that on TV somewhere? Who is everyone?

Sorry, not "everyone."

There are plenty of people that brush it aside as something horrible but he has "taken it up with God" and has been forgiven. To the people that think like that, I was wondering if they'd be just as fine if a Muslim could take it up with Allah or if an Atheist could do anything internally.

Just seems like for some people (not everyone) they see that he's Christian, just like they are, and that he used his religion to arbitrarily make things ok again
 
luckyone
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:50 pm

Now two of the Duggar daughters are blaming the press for invasion of their privacy. While I can certainly understand their feelings of victimization, at the same time I note that one of them had no problems with cameras filming the birth of their child. Privacy...unless you're paying me. These girls were likely looking at money coming from the television show. The parents haven't done their children many favors. They have made them largely inept at anything but breeding and dependent on the Duggar name with their isolation and lack of education. They exploited their children for their financial gain, and the family likely depends on that money for their lifestyle (just look at how done up Michelle Duggar looks in later episodes as compared to how frumpy and dowdy she looked before the show took off, and they clearly don't make their own clothes anymore, which in and of itself isn't a big deal).
 
Mir
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 113):
It took this one less than 30 minutes to make the condescending comment.....

While I don't believe that comment was intended to be condescending, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. It is, however, vastly different from holding it against someone that they were raped.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 116):
Now two of the Duggar daughters are blaming the press for invasion of their privacy.

I do feel bad for them, to a certain extent. But they should be directing their anger toward their parents, not the press.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 116):
The parents haven't done their children many favors.

   They pulled their kids up onto their pedestal with them. And as Doc said, it was a very high pedestal, and the fall was going to hurt.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Tugger
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 117):
I do feel bad for them, to a certain extent. But they should be directing their anger toward their parents, not the press.

It is normal and reasonable to lash out and respond/attack those who are directly attacking you. Even if the situation is one where you should expect to be attacked, where in fact it is unreasonable to not expect to be attacked.

You may still be angry at whoever put you in that situation (up to and including your own self), but still be within rights and reason to lash out.

Quoting Mir (Reply 117):
Quoting luckyone (Reply 116):
The parents haven't done their children many favors.

   They pulled their kids up onto their pedestal with them. And as Doc said, it was a very high pedestal, and the fall was going to hurt.

I'll also add my checkmark.   

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seb146
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106):
I'll actually go out on an unpopular limb and say that he was wrong but a stupid kid and kids do dumb things

That is true to a point. There comes a time in a person's life when they know it is wrong. He is now 27 and this happened 12 years ago (Washington Post link in the OP) 27-12=15. He was 15 years old. In this day and age with all the technology and internet and libraries and people talking to each other about things, that is plenty old enough to know that incest and rape are wrong. Even growing up in the middle of nowhere in the 1980s when I was 15 I knew rape and incest were wrong and I had socially conservative Christian parents!

He says God has forgiven him and his sisters have forgiven him. If that is what he believes....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
D L X
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 113):
It took this one less than 30 minutes to make the condescending comment.....

If you think that's condescending, then you really do need the help. I've ignored your post this far for a reason. Lack of comprehension. But since you're insisting...

Quoting mham001 (Reply 105):
You were also given the Arkansas definition of deviate activity. There has been zero evidence, did you see that? - ZERO evidence of rape.

This is what I mean. You have buried your head in the sand because you haven't read anything that explicitly stated "Duggar penetrated even slightly the victims' labiae." You're refusing to read these statutes the way law enforcement or lawyers would, and that's on you. Instead, you're acting all high and mighty because you're a victim yourself. But no, I'm being condescending to recognize your victimship. You're trying to have it both ways without giving much thought to the actual facts here.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 105):
You and the doctor have done nothing in this thread but spread viscous gossip, and it affects the victims.

I have not and that you repeat yourself does not make what you say become true.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 113):
If he had been 20 or 40 - different story.

Sorry, but youthful indiscretion does not mean that bad acts were not committed. It affects the _punishment_ for sure. (You'll note that not a single person on this thread has suggested that Josh Duggar should be jailed, for instance.) But being young does NOT under any circumstances absolve you or your parents from a visit from the law.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 109):
A high pedestal. And that fall from it is a long one. Had to hurt. Won't get my sympathy.

  

Quoting luckyone (Reply 116):
The parents haven't done their children many favors.

  
I'd go further to say that they've been downright abusive.
 
Mir
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 118):
It is normal and reasonable to lash out and respond/attack those who are directly attacking you.

I haven't seen the press directly attack them. Going after their brother and parents is not the same as directly attacking them.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 118):
You may still be angry at whoever put you in that situation (up to and including your own self), but still be within rights and reason to lash out.

Within rights? Sure. Within reason? I don't buy it. Lashing out at the press is irrational, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that or, or with not taking their lashing out seriously.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
There comes a time in a person's life when they know it is wrong.

Actually, there isn't, or not in the way you're describing it. It's not as if he doesn't realize one day and then the next day he knows it's wrong. It's gradual, there is a lot of gray area, and it's different for everyone

I think it's mostly moot since it did happen so long ago and the time for protecting the victims is long gone. The statute of limitations also expired IIRC. When you get down to it, it was a dumb kid doing something horribly wrong, it happens all the time all over America.....

....except this guy is in the FRC. They can twist things around to make it look like he was forgiven and they can still fight sin and "help other sinners find Jesus just like Josh did" but come on, it's mental gymnastics. The guy is a huge hypocrite. Leave people alone, especially when you have done such hideous things, that should be the moral of the story
 
luckyone
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 71):
Mike Huckabee was governor for over ten years. That's enough time for a judge that he appointed to be sitting on a case involving one of the governor's friends without any machination.
http://www.care2.com/causes/the-dugg...tical-ties-bind-them-to-power.html

Further insight into the Duggar's political connections.
 
johns624
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 113):
I was with a girl 12 or 13 when I was 14, maybe 15

She wasn't your 5 year old sister though. Teenagers "exploring" and touching someone that young are two entirely different things.
 
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seb146
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:11 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 122):
It's gradual, there is a lot of gray area, and it's different for everyone

I get what you are saying and I accept that there is a level of experimentation. I know this sounds creepy, but I am saying this from a logical standpoint: I am okay with knowing children experiment. Like "we did this a couple of times but we are siblings so it will end but thanks" type thing. But, to have it go on that long with that many girls so young and asleep is no longer experimentation in my book. It is a crime. To me, that is the beginnings of serial criminality.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
To me, that is the beginnings of serial criminality.

Or the beginning of a career in a right wing family group...

Seriously, it used to be a stereotypical joke we could all laugh at but it seems like what people have been saying all along is true--a good chunk of people in these groups are just overcompensating for things they've done and transpose their wrong actions on other groups like gay people. Because if I, a straight person, a "good person," molest kids, then gay people, "bad people," must be worse.
 
mham001
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 117):
While I don't believe that comment was intended to be condescending, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. It is, however, vastly different from holding it against someone that they were raped.

I would not have been thin skinned about it except less than one hour earlier it was this...

Quoting D L X (Reply 93):
I'm Christian.

Who's warped?

Sick man.


..for expressing what I have seen in the trenches, so to speak. Not my opinion on how I think things should be but simply the way they are, or can be - in real life.
Then tells me I "need help". This is a way to dismiss the opinion or experiences as those of a deranged person, and thus irrelevant. He has no idea of what "help" I may have needed, need or not. Would he tell the victims of our child molester that he thinks they need help? 40 years later?

I also point this out because it is a gleaming example of why people don't talk about their experiences. "you're sick", "you need help" by the general public. I don't tell anybody in my personal life. Mention bad childhood and even good people look at you differently. My wife has no idea the extent of the abuse I suffered, although I won a large judgement last year for some other aspects of it. I have talked only a bit here because I will never know anybody here in realspace.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 50):
In the end, the REAL issue here is that we, the sexual minorities of America, are getting really tired of being called pedophiles when the religious wackjobs doing the name-calling are the real pedophiles.

You keep repeating this ad naseam. I am going to point out that this mantra is quite disingenuous. While gay men are less likely to be incarcerated as "pedophiles" than heteros, gay men are 3-4 times more likely to be incarcerated as "child molesters" than heteros (that is legally defined as 13-17). They like their boys with hair.

This man is my hero,
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/14/03/55/3160931/5/1024x1024.jpg
Alleged rape victim acquitted in priest assault http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/...-assault-3686581.php#photo-3160941

Quoting opethfan (Reply 51):
Hopefully the only good thing that will come from these cases is that it's another notch in the counter-argument. The sky isn't falling in Canada and Spain and France and Ireland and Spain and so on. Instead it's the priests, the Duggars, the Republican politicians, the TV celebrities, etc. who are the real scumbags, and they're hypocrites as well.

I don't know. Of that list, how many of them were gay? The gay crowd really does not have a lot to talk about. They can scream foul on Boy Scouts, priests, Republicans, etc but in the end, they were also gay men. How does that square?

In this photo, do you see Father Jerry only as a priest, not as a gay man? I don't. (For the record, I was an altar boy for 8 years, never touched by a priest).
http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/14/03/55/3160937/18/920x920.jpg

Quoting Tugger (Reply 114):
These are dangerous paths that you walk,

Life has been full of dangerous paths. I have been fortunate, two good friends of mine were killed by serial killers.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 124):
She wasn't your 5 year old sister though.

The only people who know the 5 year old was involved are the rumor-mongers in this thread. Like this one...

Quoting D L X (Reply 120):
This is what I mean. You have buried your head in the sand because you haven't read anything that explicitly stated "Duggar penetrated even slightly the victims' labiae." You're refusing to read these statutes the way law enforcement or lawyers would, and that's on you.

That's laughable. Law enforcement wrote the report, yet they don't call it rape. Never even implied it. Maybe you should tell them they are not reading the statutes correctly because you know, sitting there at your computer, what went on between those children - as well as my mental health. Right.
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:11 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
While gay men are less likely to be incarcerated as "pedophiles" than heteros, gay men are 3-4 times more likely to be incarcerated as "child molesters" than heteros (that is legally defined as 13-17). They like their boys with hair.

So, gay men are less likely to be incarcerated as pedophiles but gay men are more likely to be incarcerated as pedophiles. That is exactly what you said there. Which is it? Child molesters=pedophiles. What I see on the news and read on the net is a huge majority of men being arrested for pedophilia against females. Granted, there is male-on-male pedophilia, but that pales in comparison to male-on-female. Just like rape.

Maybe there is something wrong with you heterosexuals? I know that is an extreme and inflammatory statement but nothing worse than what we in the LGBT community have had to live with for decades. Don't like what I said? Maybe you should get your kind under control.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
In this photo, do you see Father Jerry only as a priest, not as a gay man? I don't.

I see a repeat offender.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
(For the record, I was an altar boy for 8 years, never touched by a priest).

Some clergy know what they are doing and take their responsibility as a spiritual leader very seriously. Just like nearly all gays don't want anything to do with children other than being mentors or parents. There are a very small minority (like with heteros) who want otherwise which is why I used a qualifying statement. And those people need help.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
Maybe there is something wrong with you heterosexuals?

It would be interesting to see the conviction rates for heterosexual child abusers compared to homosexual ones. Anyhow, with the dark figure for child molestation being estimated somewhere between 90 and 95% and some 3/4 quarters or so being estimated to happen in families, it probably just shows that homosexual men abusing children/teens are simply more likely to be denounced by someone.

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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:55 pm

Seb146, i don't know if it is worth even trying to get anything rational in your mind but you are very wrong , child molestation is a much different legal (and medical) classification than pedophilia. It has bee explained at least twice in this thread.

Tommy1808, your hypothesis presupposes that gay men would not molest within the family. I doubt that and based on my personal experiences with the subjecct, i am not surprised by the numbers. I can get into that more, it is not good for the all-gay-is-all-good crowd, there is a pernicious darside that many would like to sweep under the rug. As aguy who dealt with it for many years, i resent that.
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 121):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 118):
It is normal and reasonable to lash out and respond/attack those who are directly attacking you.

I haven't seen the press directly attack them. Going after their brother and parents is not the same as directly attacking them.

By "attack" I mean the whole thing that is going on, exposing the "family secret" that they had been forced to or learned to deal with. THe drastic change in attention on them and their "secret" being outed, it feels like an attack to many people especially initially and especially with an uncaring press who are certainly not doing it for any more noble reason than the Duggar's were when they hid it from view. Each was out to make money. The press may not be in the wrong (not saying they are) but to those the press interacts with, when uninvited, unexpected, it can often feel like an attack.

Many who seek the public life and so invite such thing even though unintended.desired. The Duggar parents decided to make money of their children and so created this situation in the first place.

Quoting Mir (Reply 121):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 118):You may still be angry at whoever put you in that situation (up to and including your own self), but still be within rights and reason to lash out.

Within rights? Sure. Within reason? I don't buy it. Lashing out at the press is irrational, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that or, or with not taking their lashing out seriously.

When a "group" is "attacking" you you defend yourself. It is reasonable for that person to do so. Whether it is reasonable to think you will succeed or have an impact is another story. But to try defend oneself from such public intrusion is normal and I think understandable.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 130):
Tommy1808, your hypothesis presupposes that gay men would not molest within the family. I doubt that and based on my personal experiences with the subjecct, i am not surprised by the numbers. I can get into that more, it is not good for the all-gay-is-all-good crowd, there is a pernicious darside that many would like to sweep under the rug. As aguy who dealt with it for many years, i resent that.

I think a big issue for many homosexuals over time has been sexual frustration due to the fact that their nature was often reviled in public and when exposed they were attacked. And so many struggled in private and silence. And sexual repression is one of the most difficult and consequential things a human can experience. And when you are told you are vile and evil, and terrible and going to hell for the way you are and feel.... well to take more steps in that direction is just not as hard. I mean you are already bad, right? Doesn't excuse anything or harmful actions of course.

While not saying anything at all like "Homo's are bad!" etc. (I am not, homosexuality and other elements of sexuality and identity like gender identity etc. are very normal. Even if much of the public either denies it or doesn't experience it). I think there are many issues that can sway "the numbers" and we need to be aware and look at all factors and issues when we do.


Tugg
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 130):
child molestation is a much different legal (and medical) classification than pedophilia.

But what you don't understand is that molestation and pedophilia, whichever definition you decide to go with, has zero to do with sexuality. Nothing. A pedophile who molests children is a child molester. That has zero to with with whether the child molester is straight or gay or trans or pan or whatever. Molestation has zero to do with sexuality and pedophilia has zero to do with sexuality.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:38 am

This is from a CNN interview with a PR person that aired yesterday

When asked if the media is to blame for the downfall of the Duggars, Bragman said that the Duggars only have themselves to blame.

“It’s the fault of the fact that the family was stupid enough to go on a reality show when they had these skeletons in their closet. And you just don’t do that. The second part is the hypocrisy of this family, who is judging everyone else’s life. And I think there’s a biblical verse about that… they clearly got what they got because of the position they put themselves in.”


Talk about putting your foot in your mouth if you listen in one part of the interview with Meg Kelly; Jim Bob Duggar basically stated that molestation Is common In christian families. The exact wording from the transcript was “It was a very difficult situation. But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they have had similar things that happened in their families.”

These people need to go away, as for Josh guess it's back to selling used cars in Arkansas.
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:51 am

IIRC, there were many people who were screaming and crying that these people were doing harm to their children by putting their life on TV. I am not saying this is cause and effect. I would bet that Josh would have molested his sisters anyway. But, I don't think being on TV all the time helped the situation.

The sisters who were molested by their pedophile brother are probably being told to defend him by church elders or their parents or both and are being given fire and brimstone speeches and reasons why this pedophile should be defended. Because of possible Stockholm syndrome, they just go along with it.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 134):
there were many people who were screaming and crying that these people were doing harm to their children by putting their life on TV. I am not saying this is cause and effect. I would bet that Josh would have molested his sisters anyway. But, I don't think being on TV all the time helped the situation.

The molestation actually happened before they had the series.
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
You keep repeating this ad naseam. I am going to point out that this mantra is quite disingenuous. While gay men are less likely to be incarcerated as "pedophiles" than heteros, gay men are 3-4 times more likely to be incarcerated as "child molesters" than heteros (that is legally defined as 13-17). They like their boys with hair.

Why is that, do you suppose? I know why it is. Because when a grown man screws a 16yo girl, it's hushed up. Girls are expendable. Look at the Duggars and how they handled their molested girls.

But when the victim is a boy, that's a horrible crime against maleness.

The actual percentages for these incidents are the same for same-sex and opposite-sex child molestation.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
In this photo, do you see Father Jerry only as a priest, not as a gay man? I don't. (For the record, I was an altar boy for 8 years, never touched by a priest).

I see him as a manifestation of the ways that religion warps gay men, sometimes turning them into monsters.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 135):
The molestation actually happened before they had the series.

And no one would have said anything if they hadn't had a TV series.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
Or the beginning of a career in a right wing family group...

Seriously, it used to be a stereotypical joke we could all laugh at but it seems like what people have been saying all along is true--a good chunk of people in these groups are just overcompensating for things they've done and transpose their wrong actions on other groups like gay people. Because if I, a straight person, a "good person," molest kids, then gay people, "bad people," must be worse.

Yup. I remember when it was all mostly a joke...

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
The gay crowd really does not have a lot to talk about. They can scream foul on Boy Scouts, priests, Republicans, etc but in the end, they were also gay men. How does that square?

We're therefore all guilty for the sins these gays have committed? Do you say the same thing when straight men commit similar crimes? Do you place blame on all gays?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
My wife has no idea the extent of the abuse I suffered, although I won a large judgement last year for some other aspects of it.

That's quite sad. You really do need some help working through your past. Note, that doesn't mean I'm judging you, because I'm not. There's no shame in getting help. It's really unhealthy to just bury all of this and not let anyone in because you're afraid of what they'll think of you. At the end of the day, you were a child and could not consent, so anyone judging you for being molested isn't worth your time.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
That's laughable. Law enforcement wrote the report, yet they don't call it rape. Never even implied it. Maybe you should tell them they are not reading the statutes correctly because you know, sitting there at your computer, what went on between those children - as well as my mental health. Right.

They don't have to call it rape for it to be rape. You don't have to use a specific magic word for a crime to be charged that way. At trial, a prosecutor will be responsible for proving every element of the charged offense beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't matter if the police report doesn't say rape if the each element of the crime of rape is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 127):
You keep repeating this ad naseam. I am going to point out that this mantra is quite disingenuous.

Why? Are you suggesting we're all potential sex offenders?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 136):
Why is that, do you suppose? I know why it is. Because when a grown man screws a 16yo girl, it's hushed up. Girls are expendable. Look at the Duggars and how they handled their molested girls.

But when the victim is a boy, that's a horrible crime against maleness.

Big big part of the problem. Women who are raped fell victim because they "deserved it," "were dressed slutty," or "were just asking for it," but sex crimes against a man are unspeakably heinous. The double standard is astounding.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:06 pm

The judge who ordered the original report destroyed is now being accused of acting inappropriately. Some say she should have ordered it sealed, not destroyed. It also looks like there may be a lot of ill-will toward the Duggars in their community, which wouldn't surprise me.

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2015/j...inst-springdale-chief-lacks-rep-1/

[Edited 2015-06-09 10:28:13]
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:31 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 138):
Are you suggesting we're all potential sex offenders?

We all have that potential. Whether we act on those thoughts or not is the rest of the story. If a person is truly honest with themselves, those thoughts have come up. The difference between active molesters/pedophiles and everyone else is: everyone else dismisses those thoughts and does not dwell on them. Having a thought is nothing to be ashamed of. We have all thoughts of murdering or stealing, too. Having the thought does not mean anything. Following through on that thought is what counts.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 140):

Quoting OA412 (Reply 138):
Are you suggesting we're all potential sex offenders?

We all have that potential.

I don't think we do, especially in the choice of pedophilia. Just like being gay, being attracted to children is a choice (and I'm NOT equating homosexuality to pedophilia, just saying both are outside one's control.) So in that regard, I don't think most of us have that potential.

The difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is despite the fact that both are not choices, the former is unacceptable because it does actually cause harm (the child is obviously not a consenting adult.) That's why I actually feel really bad for pedophiles and wish that we wouldn't ostracize them but instead encourage to seek help. When you molest a child you cross the line, but before then, you're in a lifelong battle you cannot fully cure and society should do it's best to support them, at least for the child's sake
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:17 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 141):
Just like being gay, being attracted to children is a choice (and I'm NOT equating homosexuality to pedophilia, just saying both are outside one's control.) So in that regard, I don't think most of us have that potential.

Are there studies on this? A am asking a genuine question. I have not heard any studies like there have been on homosexuality being a trait. This would be an interesting study if people could be honest.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
Are there studies on this? A am asking a genuine question.

That pedophilia is not a choice? I am pretty sure most (is not all) sexual preferences are not chosen. I would figure that you being gay is not a choice, nor is me being straight, nor is a pedophile being attracted to a kid. An important distinction between pedophiles that don't harm kids and child molesters that do

Just like "why would anyone choose to be gay and get so much hate?" Why would anyone choose to be attracted to kids where basically every form of getting off on it involves a prison sentence?

I am sure there are studies out on it, I apologize, I do not have time to look it up. Definitely something to think about, I'd rather approach a pedophile with compassion and try to get him/her help (how? IDK) rather than "WTF how are you attracted to kids (against your will) !? Go away, don't tell anyone, let it brew in you and have it hidden away so you can't get help which may lead you to breaking the law"

It's like suicide, instead of stigma, we should try to help them. Doesn't mean we condone suicide (or sex with children)
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:07 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):

Hmm, I don't know any straight man that would say something like that. OMG, that explains so much about you!
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 143):
An important distinction between pedophiles that don't harm kids and child molesters that do

Right. I think by just leaving people to their own thoughts is a step in the right direction. There are many things that people think about that probably should be talked about. I am all for people getting to know themselves and not feeling isolated and, most of all, not committing crimes. Because everyone is an individual and all minds think differently, there should be resources where people can go before their thoughts (of being attracted to children or abuse or whatever crime) turn to actions.

It seems I worded it wrong. This seems strange, even for me. I don't know how else to word it so another set of eyes will help.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:20 am

I totally get what you are saying seb146. I think you worded it pretty well!
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 140):

I was actually referencing his aparent allusion that all gay men are pedophiles. He appeared to be making a distinction between gay men and the rest of the population in this specific regard.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 141):
I don't think we do, especially in the choice of pedophilia.

I agree. I really don't believe that we have that capacity, particularly with pre-pubescent children. It's one thing for someone to have thoughts about a 17 year old who is still unable to consent, but is in all other respects built like an adult, and a whole other thing to be sexually attracted to an 8 year old.
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 136):
Why is that, do you suppose? I know why it is. Because when a grown man screws a 16yo girl, it's hushed up. Girls are expendable. Look at the Duggars and how they handled their molested girls.

But when the victim is a boy, that's a horrible crime against maleness.

The actual percentages for these incidents are the same for same-sex and opposite-sex child molestation.
BS.

But first of all IT IS A HORRIBLE CRIME. Why is that a problem for you, a man supposed to protect those same boys?

And if the tripe you say were true, the same study I quoted would not indicate that (stated) incarcerated hetero sexual men performed more pedophilia than (stated) incarcerated gay men, based on a 2-4% gay population. And that is about the most gay-positive study around. As a pediatrician, not a gay advocate, you are supposed to know the data and know the tremendous pressure a straight teenage boy would feel when admitting he had a penis in his butt. It is highly documented, look at all the boys who come forward many years later. Absolute nonsense you bring up and you are really bordering on unprofessional ethics to push your personal agenda.

FAILURE TO REPORT ABUSE
Pedophilic abuse is often not reported for a variety of
reasons ranging from fear (eg, worried about not being
believed, will be physically harmed if child reports abuse),
emotional reasons (needy child identifies with the pedo-
phile), or guilt (feels responsible for what happened).6 In
the study by Bagley et al, the most common response why
individuals who were molested once did not report abuse
was that they could “handle the abuse” and it “didn’t
bother” them (50.7%), with the second most common re-
sponse being that they were afraid of how other people
would react (40%).46 For children who were abused mul-
tiple times, the most common response was that they felt
partly responsible (57.7%) or that they did not want the
person prosecuted because of some degree of attachment
(44.2%).
Bagley C, Wood M, Young L. Victim to abuser: mental health and
behavioral sequels of child sexual abuse in a community survey of young adult
males. Child Abuse Negl. 1994;18:683-697.


"Heterosexual pedophiles, in self-report studies, have on
average abused 5.2 children and committed an average of
34 sexual acts vs homosexual pedophiles who have on
average abused 10.7 children and committed an average of
52 acts."
Abel GG, Harlow N. The Abel and Harlow child molestation prevention
study.


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 136):
I see him as a manifestation of the ways that religion warps gay men, sometimes turning them into monsters.

So, only religious gay men molest boys? Is that a quote from the gay activist or the pediatrician? If from the pediatrician, then you are either very poorly-read on the subject or blatantly lying. Neither one makes you look good here.

How warped is that that a teenage boy could come to you for help and meet this wall of skepticism from the gay activist. What would you do, disbelieve the victim? Tell him it is ok? Welcome him to the fold?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 136):
Girls are expendable.

Let's look at this nonsense from a professional who should know better. Fact is, Mayo Institute reports (pedophiles only) "The NIBRS (FBI National Incident Based Reporting System) data indicate that an arrest was made in only 29% of reported juvenile sexual assaults. Factors most likely to lead to an arrest, listed in order of greatest likelihood of arrest, were (1) presence of more than 1 child, (2) 1 offender involved, (3) juvenile child involved, and (4) female child involved."

For another example, look at the way you have repeatedly dismissed gay child molestation, when it is front and prominent in a boy's teen years. A man who is honored and paid to protect those same boys. Look at the demand for allowing gay boy scout leaders when they have already had a huge man/boy scandal (I've been to Boy Scout camps recently, it is stunning how it was more gay camp than boy scout camp - that's another subject). Look at the way Paterno and Sandusky were/are supported. And I have yet to see a hetero version of the North American Man/Boy Love Association. So where are all these big hetero scandals? Dugger? Is that all you got? Why are the boys expendable to you? Do you like boys?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 138):
We're therefore all guilty for the sins these gays have committed? Do you say the same thing when straight men commit similar crimes? Do you place blame on all gays?

I don't know where in my post you got that. You are putting words in my mouth. I only refuted the (repeated) nonsense from the "pediatrician" that gay men don't molest children. They do, sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes much more, based on distinct age groups.

Pedophiles are usually attracted to a particular age range
and/or sex of child. Research categorizes male pedophiles
by whether they are attracted to only male children (homo-
sexual pedophilia), female children (heterosexual pedo-
philia), or children from both sexes (bisexual pedo-
philia).3,6,10,29 The percentage of homosexual pedophiles
ranges from 9% to 40%, which is approximately 4 to 20
times higher than the rate of adult men attracted to other
adult men (using a prevalence rate of adult homosexuality
of 2%-4%).5,7,10,19,29,30 This finding does not imply that ho-
mosexuals are more likely to molest children, just that a
larger percentage of pedophiles are homosexual or bisexual
in orientation to children.19 Individuals attracted to females
usually prefer children between the ages of 8 and 10
years.3,5,31 Individuals attracted to males usually prefer
slightly older boys between the ages of 10 and 13 years.3,5
Heterosexual pedophiles, in self-report studies, have on
average abused 5.2 children and committed an average of
34 sexual acts vs homosexual pedophiles who have on
average abused 10.7 children and committed an average of
52 acts.15 Bisexual offenders have on average abused 27.3
children and committed more than 120 acts.15 A study by
Abel et al32 of 377 nonincarcerated, non–incest-related
pedophiles, whose legal situations had been resolved and
who were surveyed using an anonymous self-report ques-
tionnaire, found that heterosexual pedophiles on average
reported abusing 19.8 children and committing 23.2 acts,
whereas homosexual pedophiles had abused 150.2 children
and committed 281.7 acts. These studies confirm law en-
forcement reports about the serial nature of the crime, the
large number of children abused by each pedophile, and the
underreporting of assaults.1 Studies that used self-reports
and polygraphs show that pedophiles currently in treat-
ment underreport their current interest in children and past
behaviors.33,34
A Profile of Pedophilia:Definition, Characteristics of Offenders, Recidivism,Treatment Outcomes, and Forensic Issues

Sorry about the formatting, this is research I have stored.

As you can see, the range of the studies varies, but still all say pretty much the same thing. I find the self-reported study based on incarcerated men to be the most accurate logically, which actually portrays a lower range of gay molestation I used above, the only main anomaly is that many molesters, particularly pedophiles, state 'no preference' in their sexual desires. I have to do more digging to find it, I believe it is the Hall report mentioned above.



[Edited 2015-06-14 16:19:00]
 
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RE: Josh Duggar: Child Molestor

Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 148):
Let's look at this nonsense from a professional who should know better.

Wow. You have reading comprehension issues.
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