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solarflyer22
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Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 3:13 pm

I am quite shocked at the success of ISIS' summer advance and it seems the media and pundits are not putting things into perspective. If you look at the total battle zone, you can see their moves are both strategic and well placed. In the past month or so they have:

1) Captured Ramadi despite US air strikes in that theatre
2) Captured the priceless ruins of Palmyra and surrounding locale
3) Captured the 3rd and last bordering crossing between Syria and Iraq. (ISIS control all borders crossings now)
4) Taken 50% of Syria territory overall

#3 is really critical as ISIS can now fully control commerce and shuffle troops back and forth between Syria and Iraq.

The USA is bombing ISIS while Saudi Arabia and Turkey are doubling down on Syrian rebels who I suspect are either allied with or in league with ISIS.

The ramifications of this are very serious. Syria and Iraq could collapse as nation states and we could see major acts of genocide. The world apathy over this is a real shame. There is no real plan to deal with it. If you thought dealing with Iran is bad, imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isi...d-squeezed-multiple-fronts-n363066
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.

Why? It's really not that much worse than many of the existing ones. And once they actually form a government and have international relations to think about, they'll have to start acting like adults.

You'll notice that in spite of all of this, oil prices have only bumped a little bit.

So what should we do? Have another decade-long ME war to overthrow another brutal autocratic theocracy?

If we'd done what George HW Bush did and left the Baathists in power, we wouldn't be in this mess now.

I mean heck: http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/saud...swordsmen-as-execution-rate-soars/

How about we use diplomatic means to try to get KSA to turn into a civilized country first? If we can do that then we can work on ISIS, because clearly the military approach isn't working.

[Edited 2015-05-23 08:33:05]
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Polot
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So what should we do? Have another decade-long ME war to overthrow another brutal autocratic theocracy?

   The reason why the world is apathetic? The world is suffering from ME violence fatigue, and right now ISIS hasn't had a major effect on life outside the ME so people are content with just leaving the ME to deal with their own problems.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
If you thought dealing with Iran is bad, imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.

Iran might be difficult to deal with, but they have just been more defiant to the wishes of the West than overtly violent.

At some point hearing about how someone blew themselves up at some hotel or market or square or whatever in Iraq/Syria/Yemen/Israel/wherever just becomes white noise.

[Edited 2015-05-23 08:57:55]
 
photopilot
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 4:39 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
Syria and Iraq could collapse as nation states and we could see major acts of genocide.

Well, if Syria collapses, besides the immediate genocide that will likely happen, can you imagine the reaction in Israel with ISIS as their direct neighbour with a common border?
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
Syria and Iraq could collapse as nation states

You mean they haven't yet?

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
The world apathy over this is a real shame.

Tell me where's the apathy? Apathy would be encouraging ISIS and not striking them.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
There is no real plan to deal with it.

Well what's you plan? Troops? Whose troops?

ISIS has a foothold in Iraq because the central government there has been inept, not taking the Sunni faction's concerns seriously. Now that ISIS is gaining in Iraq, the Sunnis see ISIS as a better force to be allied with than the central government.

As far as Syria goes, no one wants to go in and defeat ISIS because that would mean supporting (directly or indirectly) Assad's government. The West now sees that Assad was the lesser of two evils. Until the countries make an about-face and admit that they were wrong, no one will help Assad or any of the several factions fighting for power in Syria.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
If you thought dealing with Iran is bad, imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.

Iran, under Rouhani, has been FAR more willing to deal with the West than under Ahmadinejad. The only ones still making dealing with Iran difficult are the Supreme Leader and Republicans in Congress.
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pvjin
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Why? It's really not that much worse than many of the existing ones. And once they actually form a government and have international relations to think about, they'll have to start acting like adults.

There's no guarantee of that ever happening, Syria and Iraq may as well remain a half lawless area similar to Southern Somalia and parts of Afghanistan. If ISIS actually wanted international recognition they would stop threatening west with terror attacks and destroying ancient ruins. Currently they are doing exactly the opposite, no doubt ISIS is going to do its best to commit some major attacks on European soil in nearby future.

Perhaps it will take a couple of major attacks until Europe will finally wake up and start taking issues with Islamic radicalism seriously enough.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sat May 23, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Why? It's really not that much worse than many of the existing ones. And once they actually form a government and have international relations to think about, they'll have to start acting like adults.

The trouble is, the brutal regimes the West is currently propping up have no intention of forcing a fight with the west, that will result in the coming of the end days. ISIS does. They have no intention of ever acting like adults.

Might I suggest this excellent article on ISIS? http://www.theatlantic.com/features/.../02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[Edited 2015-05-23 10:56:23]
 
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seb146
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 12:25 am

The West was apathetic toward Taliban when they were in control of Afghanistan. The difference was: we were not war weary. We were are tired of the constant bombardment of fear.
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StarAC17
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
The USA is bombing ISIS while Saudi Arabia and Turkey are doubling down on Syrian rebels who I suspect are either allied with or in league with ISIS.

Let the big players in the Middle East the KSA, Turkey and Iran deal with it.

Quoting polot (Reply 2):
   The reason why the world is apathetic? The world is suffering from ME violence fatigue, and right now ISIS hasn't had a major effect on life outside the ME so people are content with just leaving the ME to deal with their own problems.

I think the world has finally figured out when we get involved then the side that loses has a gripe with the interventionists
and blames them for it. The western interference in that region is why we have these groups, let them have their holy war and settle it with as little interference as possible.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):
Well, if Syria collapses, besides the immediate genocide that will likely happen, can you imagine the reaction in Israel with ISIS as their direct neighbour with a common border?

Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Perhaps it will take a couple of major attacks until Europe will finally wake up and start taking issues with Islamic radicalism seriously enough.

You are making a very complex issue very simple. Yes terrorist attacks are a potential risk but should be really be using military force to combat it? It is at the end of the day an intelligence and law enforcement issue.

In a war there is collateral damage and if we put ground troops in then we accidentally kill an innocent person then their entire family is against us and we create more terrorists. This is what created ISIS to begin with, we went in and took out Saddam who is a bad guy but he kept a lid on this powderkeg and now it has hit the fan. Let them sort this out and the sane Muslims need to take a stand with the support of the west but the ball is in their court to do the dirty work.

Furthermore terrorism is only effective if it scares us into changing out ways and when we do that then they win. Why is it we freak out only when Muslims commit murders or make threats when the amount of crimes they commit globally are consistent with all other mass crimes that anyone is capable of committing.

Examples of non muslim terrorism is the the Norway shooting where Anders Breivik killed for political reasons, in Tuscon that was politically motivated and Elliot Rodger's motive in Santa Barbara last year was to get back against women.

All of these acts were just seen as crimes but when one idiot decides to attack the Canadian parliament or holds hostage a cafe in Sydney we freak because of his ideology and skin colour. Islamic terrorism is something that we should be vigilant about but when we lose our collective s*it over things that are crimes then their acts are working to scare us. If those same attacks were done by people whom had disagreements with the government but were white Christians would be freak out as much.

Perhaps we need to look in the mirror and stop being so scared on one group of people and live our lives!! We win if these attacks don't motivate us to start yet another war in the Middle East and they win if we do spend another trillion dollars on it.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
The West was apathetic toward Taliban when they were in control of Afghanistan. The difference was: we were not war weary. We were are tired of the constant bombardment of fear.

The west created the Taliban by arming and training the Afghani's when they were fighting the soviets.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

That sounds good except every time somebody claims to be able to wipe anybody out, they end up being disappointed. Technology never beats local insurgence...never. It didn't work in Vietnam, the Soviets in Afghanistan, the West in Afghanistan and Iraq...and now, everybody against ISIS and al Qaeda.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
The west created the Taliban by arming and training the Afghani's when they were fighting the soviets.

The royal dictatorships of the Persian Gulf region created ISIS and al Nusra Front as well as helped al Qaeda turn into a real serious global threat.

Yemen today is a perfect example of that. Saudi and company are soiling their pantaloons about Iran...not because of nukes, but because of the incredible economic potential. Saudi has had its own way in the region for decades. They have complete western support for their terror exporting despotic regime. They can do anything they want and the west keeps lining up to sell them as many weapons as they can, and coddle them at every opportunity.

As a result, they have complete freedom to export their radical wahhabi doctrines via their madrassas. They have spent countless millions on funding, arming and training Syrian, 'rebels', (just to poke Iran in the eye), and have grown into ISIS, and then they raced down through Iraq, and routed the US trained and armed military. The only reason ISIS hasn't taken control of Iraq and the Kurds, is that Iran is fighting ISIS.

And all Saudi is doing about ISIS is complain that Iran is taking control in Iraq.

If Iran hadn't stepped in, ISIS would have long ago controlled Syria and Iraq and have common borders with Israel, Jordan, Afghanistan, Saudi and Kuwait. That would have made Hezbollah look like boy scouts.

They use the Iranian hegemony excuse to attack the poorest and weakest country in the region...because the Houthis, (who have centuries of history in Yemen), have gotten tired of being oppressed and marginalized by Saudi bought presidents.

Yemen has almost no money and what little they have, goes into private coffers. Now, the west is complicit in destroying what little infrastructure existed in Yemen. Thousands of civilians killed, tens of thousands wounded and hundreds of thousands displaced...all helped by the west to soothe Saudi egos about Iran.

Iran isn't in Yemen...they never were. They have helped the Houthis, but they don't have any significant presence in Yemen...and they never have. Ironically, before the Saudis started killing Yemenis, the Houthis and the US were fighting on the same side, and keeping al Qaeda in check. Now, al Qaeda has overrun half of the country and is taking more every day.

Saudi, in the meantime, has categorically stated that they will not attack al Qaeda. They also won't help the fight against ISIS. They are using 200 aircraft to blow the crap out of Yemen, and they sent a grand total of 4 to fight ISIS. That shows the extent of their commitment to fight Sunni terrorism.

The west didn't so much create ISIS as sit back and let Saudi and Qatar create ISIS. Now, they are actively helping al Qaeda take over Yemen.

Iran is only the bad guy because Saudi and Israel have better PR. If the world actually does want to control terrorism, the west needs a strong Iran. Otherwise, Iran will be the only country in the region not controlled by ISIS and al Qaeda...and even though Saudi thinks it has bought peace from them, these terror groups hate the Persian Gulf monarchies as much as they hate the west.

There are 3 choices with ISIS; either the west puts boots back on the ground in Iraq or helps Iran fight ISIS or sit back and watch ISIS take control of the middle east.

The sooner the west figures out Iran is much better to have as a friend than an enemy, the better off everyone will be.
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solarflyer22
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So what should we do? Have another decade-long ME war to overthrow another brutal autocratic theocracy?

I think you need US troops to reinforce Baghdad or you're going to have to accept that Iraq may fall to the Islamic State and that all that blood and treasure spent on stabilizing Iraq is lost. Even worse, you may have to accept both Syria and Iraq may form some Sunni conjoined Islamic State.

But in doing so, the US concedes total, absolute defeat in Iraq. It means accepting a regime worse than Saddam's. That's a bitter pill to swallow.

Quoting polot (Reply 2):
The world is suffering from ME violence fatigue,

I agree entirely. I would say Islamic violence more generally. Remember those Boko Haram girls that got kidnapped? lol

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Perhaps it will take a couple of major attacks until Europe will finally wake up and start taking issues with Islamic radicalism seriously enough.

Ok, so this is my main gripe with "Ignore it and it will go away". ISIS unlike the USSR, Iran, North Korea or Saddam's regime is capable of spawning converts ANYWHERE. Just this week, the first ISIS inspired attack hit a Shia Mosque in Saudi Arabia. This will get worse if the ideology is not stamped out.

As far as solutions go, I think the USA has to put the squeeze Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey to stop all money going into ISIS like groups. Even if it means sanctioning them or cutting off military sales. Then I think you need to form a Sunni militia in the mold of Iran's Shia militia to fight back. I think you also need to force in a Sunni PM in Iraq as well which they have not had for 8-9 years. Its the only way.
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
As far as solutions go, I think the USA has to put the squeeze Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey to stop all money going into ISIS like groups. Even if it means sanctioning them or cutting off military sales. Then I think you need to form a Sunni militia in the mold of Iran's Shia militia to fight back. I think you also need to force in a Sunni PM in Iraq as well which they have not had for 8-9 years. Its the only way.

Better to do what they're doing now- the absolute minimum. The Middle East has the resources to handle this problem and is choosing not to. For once the USA is doing the right thing and avoiding a major conflict. Let's hope things stay that way.
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NorthstarBoy
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 4:27 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
In a war there is collateral damage and if we put ground troops in then we accidentally kill an innocent person then their entire family is against us and we create more terrorists. This is what created ISIS to begin with, we went in and took out Saddam who is a bad guy but he kept a lid on this powderkeg and now it has hit the fan. Let them sort this out and the sane Muslims need to take a stand with the support of the west but the ball is in their court to do the dirty work.

That sounds good, but, the problem is that the sane muslims in Iraq and Syria are having their heads chopped off by ISIS.

What really shocked me about the fall of Ramadi was that rather than stand up to ISIS and throw everything they had at them, the Iraqi Army turned and ran like a bunch of cowards. Then again, I think back about the fall of Mosul and the shocking notion that ISIS was able to capture 1700 Iraqi troops and lead them away to the slaughter like a bunch of cattle. Why didn't those troops stand up and fight for themselves?
When the Iraqis themselves aren't willing to stand up and fight and die for their own country, it becomes not worth our time and effort to help them.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
) Captured the priceless ruins of Palmyra
Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
and destroying ancient ruins.

It is indeed noticeable that some sections of the media care more about a few tumble down ruins than they do about the real suffering of people. People are expendable but priceless ruins ... shock, horror, outrage.
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29erUSA187
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 6:49 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
As far as solutions go, I think the USA has to put the squeeze Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey to stop all money going into ISIS like groups.

Well, now that Delta Force took out the Financial Head of ISIS and seized sales documents, I think well see a bunch of "Businessmen" disappearing, dying, and being arrested.... If we can make the money go away, we can make the scumbags go away.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 8:45 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

How, with nukes?

Awesome... you get rid of ISIS, kill a few hundred thousand innocents in the process, and ACTUALLY turn the whole billion and a half Muslims in the world into radicals bent on your destruction (instead of just fearmongering about them already being such). Great job.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
Technology never beats local insurgence...never. It didn't work in Vietnam, the Soviets in Afghanistan, the West in Afghanistan and Iraq...and now, everybody against ISIS and al Qaeda.

  

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
or you're going to have to accept that Iraq may fall to the Islamic State and that all that blood and treasure spent on stabilizing Iraq is lost.

Many of us accepted THAT a decade ago.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mandala499
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
The world apathy over this is a real shame.

You really need to understand ISIS, it's ideology, and progression to see where the problem is and how to deal with it.
The major problem with ISIS for the world is NOT on the ground in Syria and Iraq, but at home in each and everyone of our countries. ISIS creates a modern day caliphate of global resistance, which every one who believes in the Caliphate is "obliged" (or brainwashed) to join. So, it draws in a lot of whack heads from countless nations, to the caliphate to fight on it's behalf.

Now, after 9/11, isn't having these whack heads leaving and going to join war somewhere else (and we need to ensure they don't win, but are kept contained), a good way of cleaning our countries from them? This explains part of the reluctance to battle against ISIS where they are... because it reduces the number of extremists in other countries.

However, this forms another risk. The last thing we want is to have tin-pot caliphates forming up in various countries run by people who were in ISIS and had gone home to expand the caliphate mentality. Boko Haram in Nigeria has literally declared itself the Nigerian version of ISIS in order go gain global extremism support.

Indonesia has declared ISIS and ISIS recruitment in Indonesia as a danger to the state. Our past experience with "caliphate bombers" has shown that extremist's desire to set up a South East Asian caliphate to be real. After the caliphate bombers and the organization has been more or less eradicated, extremists needed a new venture to jump on. When ISIS came along, thousands of Indonesian extremists who can no longer be bombers for the caliphate went to join and went to Syria via Iraq (and the Anti-Shia sentiments have largely given ISIS recruitments here a boost). It's nice, we can get rid off a few thousand of these extremists.

Now the challenge becomes, how to stop them from coming back. The last thing we want is our guys who went to ISIS, coming back and resurrecting the South East Asian caliphate idea through an armed rebellion. Yes, armed rebellion is a crucial point here, because ISIS's claim to legitimacy is to have a territory it can control and be a caliphate from which it would expand. They won't go around suicide-bombing (which is a relief)... but the prospects of an armed insurgency in the future should these guys come back, is an ugly and real prospect.

Every country who has it's citizen joining ISIS, has the same problem of "what happens if these guys come back".

Barring people from going, is problematic too, because those who believe in joining the caliphate and is prevented from doing so, can basically become a local terrorist as a relief... ie, stop them from going, and you'd create suicide bombers or economic saboteurs (like, crop poisoning, etc), as anyone who stops them from going, is an infidel regardless of religion (even if your hardline Muslim parents who don't want to lose you as a son in battle prevents you, your parents is legitimately, an infidel game for a kill... yes... nuts).

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
There is no real plan to deal with it. If you thought dealing with Iran is bad, imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.

They won't deal with the west outside war.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Perhaps it will take a couple of major attacks until Europe will finally wake up and start taking issues with Islamic radicalism seriously enough.

See the above, and understand why stopping, or eradicating ISIS is a dilemma.

At the end of the day, the best thing to do with ISIS is to contain them in a confined space.

I agree with JoeCanuck, currently, the Saudi-Iran spat is the real danger as it can quickly escalate into large scale war with so much oil at stake... ISIS is just a sideshow at the moment... Yemen, is where the two go head to head.
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tommy1808
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 10:04 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

True. Just like the one time I went on a weekend trip to band camp and when I came back on Monday Hamas just wasn't there anymore.

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Thomas
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Aaron747
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
The ramifications of this are very serious. Syria and Iraq could collapse as nation states and we could see major acts of genocide. The world apathy over this is a real shame. There is no real plan to deal with it. If you thought dealing with Iran is bad, imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.
Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):
can you imagine the reaction in Israel with ISIS as their direct neighbour with a common border?

ISIS is slaughtering Shia peoples left and right - eventually they are going to have to face Iran. You will eventually see very strange bedfellows over this issue. KSA and Iran are not friends by any means, but they both have interests threatened by ISIS. KSA's opposition to ISIS is economic, and Iran's opposition to ISIS is emotional as the largest Shia state. A scenario where KSA, Iran and the US all collaborate in a large offensive against ISIS is not at all implausible. Jordan and Egypt are already on board, but their military resources are nothing compared to KSA and Iran.
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tommy1808
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
KSA and Iran are not friends by any means,

in a perfect world wrestling down a common mortal enemy like ISIS together may alleviate some of the tention between them.

Yeah, I know... pollyanna much.

Best regards
Thomas
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us330
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
This will get worse if the ideology is not stamped out.
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
ISIS unlike the USSR, Iran, North Korea or Saddam's regime is capable of spawning converts ANYWHERE. Just this week, the first ISIS inspired attack hit a Shia Mosque in Saudi Arabia. This will get worse if the ideology is not stamped out.

I think you yourself just explained why dealing with ISIS is problematic for the West. The West can only deal with the military and physical aspect of the conflict, but as long as the ideology remains relevant to individuals, then ISIS will never be eradicated. The ideological aspect is beyond the West's control--that's really an issue for the Islamic world and Islamic theologians to spawn ideological and theological counter-movements to weaken ISIS and to dissuade potential ISIS converts.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 12):
What really shocked me about the fall of Ramadi was that rather than stand up to ISIS and throw everything they had at them, the Iraqi Army turned and ran like a bunch of cowards. Then again, I think back about the fall of Mosul and the shocking notion that ISIS was able to capture 1700 Iraqi troops and lead them away to the slaughter like a bunch of cattle. Why didn't those troops stand up and fight for themselves?

Agreed. Secretary of Defense just blasted them publicly for having no will to fight. http://news.yahoo.com/us-iraqs-fight...sue-takeover-ramadi-131535725.html Even as POWs they offered no resistance.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 16):
Indonesia has declared ISIS and ISIS recruitment in Indonesia as a danger to the state. Our past experience with "caliphate bombers" has shown that extremist's desire to set up a South East Asian caliphate to be real.

It is.

I also think this could torpedo the Iran Deal. 10 years of negotiations will go right out the window if some Islamic Super Caliphate sets up next to them. They are not going to let some treaty benefitting Israel force them into a conventional ground war with groups that commit genocide and I don't blame them.
 
mham001
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 4:50 pm

The one and only reason anybody here cared about the place is an over-reliance on oil. Now, if the Persian Gulf were set on fire and the entire region pillaged, life will go on. Things may get a bit more expensive, other things a bit less (US military expenditures) and some developing nations will have problems but this would be an economic boon long term. Let them rot in the sand. Europe should be the ones on high guard, the invasion will come though Turkey and the blunder they instigated in Libya.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
There are 3 choices with ISIS; either the west puts boots back on the ground in Iraq or helps Iran fight ISIS or sit back and watch ISIS take control of the middle east.

I have long wondered about UAE, Dubai and EK because of this. How long can they buy off the haters of the decadence found within the opulence of Dubai, Doha and elsewhere, so far untouched by attacks of any kind. How do they do that and how long can it last? Of course, expressing that here is quite 'incorrect'.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 15):
Awesome... you get rid of ISIS, kill a few hundred thousand innocents in the process

While I feel strongly for the non-Muslim innocents swept away in this, the Pew Reseach poll shows that a majority of Muslims would prefer to live under ISIS rules in varying degrees (Sharia law, forced conversions was not one of the questions). ISIS would not be where they are without significant local support. I don't think there are too many "innocents" anymore.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):
I don't think there are too many "innocents" anymore.

That statement makes no sense to me.

The overwhelming majority of people who couldn't leave, are probably just doing/saying what it takes to survive under ISIL... and that makes them worthy of being vaporized in a political strike?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Aesma
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 21):
I also think this could torpedo the Iran Deal. 10 years of negotiations will go right out the window if some Islamic Super Caliphate sets up next to them. They are not going to let some treaty benefitting Israel force them into a conventional ground war with groups that commit genocide and I don't blame them.

So Iran's response to a genocide in Iraq/Syria would be to nuke the place ?
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mham001
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 23):
The overwhelming majority of people who couldn't leave, are probably just doing/saying what it takes to survive under ISIL...

I don't think we know that the overwhelming majority do not mind ISIS control. You think a few thousand foreigners ran roughshod through large chunks of the country all by themselves?
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):
While I feel strongly for the non-Muslim innocents swept away in this, the Pew Reseach poll shows that a majority of Muslims would prefer to live under ISIS rules in varying degrees (Sharia law, forced conversions was not one of the questions). ISIS would not be where they are without significant local support.

I have not seen such polls, and PEW research after i went through of there polls don't give me a sense of nonpartisan as they pretend.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
The ramifications of this are very serious. Syria and Iraq could collapse as nation states and we could see major acts of genocide.

umm, not sure where you've been but it's already happening! Asad is purely buying time and Iraq's only saving grace is the fact that it

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
Saudi Arabia

undoubtedly sending money to ISIS or providing fighters...

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

why would it, ISIS can be used for their political agenda...and I doubt it'd be that easy for them.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
The royal dictatorships of the Persian Gulf region created ISIS and al Nusra Front as well as helped al Qaeda turn into a real serious global threat.

your entire post is brilliant, thank you! it sums up the situation perfectly and without bullshit.  
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 10:24 pm

The government of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries don't help ISIS. Individuals might. I'm not saying they didn't play a role, historically, but today they've realized their foolishness. They've created a monster that could wipe them out. It's like saying the US is still sending money and arms to the Taliban.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
I think you need US troops to reinforce Baghdad or you're going to have to accept that Iraq may fall to the Islamic State and that all that blood and treasure spent on stabilizing Iraq is lost. Even worse, you may have to accept both Syria and Iraq may form some Sunni conjoined Islamic State.

How long? A year? Ten? Fifty? A thousand?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 23):
The overwhelming majority of people who couldn't leave, are probably just doing/saying what it takes to survive under ISIL... and that makes them worthy of being vaporized in a political strike?

But even in places like KSA or Pakistan there is strong grassroots support for sharia (>90%). Not even 90% of Americans agree that interracial marriage should be legal or that women should be allowed to vote. And ultimately that's the root of the problem. As long as Islam is practiced as it is in the Muslim world today, we will simply be trading one theocratic dictatorship for another.

You can't wipe out an ideology with military force. Islam needs a Reformation and an Enlightenment.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Sun May 24, 2015 11:46 pm

I say we just close the borders from most immigration that originates from Islamic parts of developing world, deport any radical elements in European Muslim communities and let Islamic world handle its own business. If people there want to live under Sharia then let them do that, just keep their ideology out of western world.

Eventually this policy would lead to a better and safer world when all the radical elements in the west either move to their dream caliphate, get deported or blow themselves up so that no radicals are left anymore. Unlike some have predicted globalization isn't leading to any kind of an utopian world community where all people have common idea of human rights and feel solidarity towards each other. No, we are just as divided as ever before, that's why proper border control is needed.

[Edited 2015-05-24 16:46:49]
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
So Iran's response to a genocide in Iraq/Syria would be to nuke the place ?

No but if there is another attack on Iran like Saddam Hussein's Chemical Weapons attacks, yes I'd think they'd cross the threshold and possibly use it. There is not going to be a repeat of the 1980-1988 Iran Iraq war. What else are they going to do? Wait for Russia/USA to deliver arms? They've been burned by both.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
The government of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries don't help ISIS.

I think they do. They are paying off Turkey to keep the borders "Open" to ISIS fighters and money. They think the crazies are useful tools (Saudi actually said this once). They are completely obsessed with toppling Assad and Iran influence in Shia Iraq at any cost. I think they believe, incorrectly, once the crazies win in Syria they can buy there way into influence and moderation using their money. Wont work though, and if anything ISIS will go for them or Kuwait.
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
Just this week, the first ISIS inspired attack hit a Shia Mosque in Saudi Arabia.

There's no need for that to be ISIS inspired. The Saudis are in a spat with the Shias for a while... Nothing new there.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 21):
Secretary of Defense just blasted them publicly for having no will to fight.

Iraq is war fatigued... civilian, law enforcement, military, etc. An occupation needs more than 10 years to leave the place as a non-failed state (no guarantees, but doing it in less, is a guarantee if you've disassembled the national apparatus during the occupation). US' pull out basically guaranteed this current crisis to happen. No one listened back then... but then, the US was war weary too.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 21):
I also think this could torpedo the Iran Deal. 10 years of negotiations will go right out the window if some Islamic Super Caliphate sets up next to them.

This is the whole point of "someone" funding ISIS... to prevent Iran from being a non-pariah state in terms of geopolitics.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 25):
I don't think we know that the overwhelming majority do not mind ISIS control.

What have you been smoking dude? Locals call them bandits for a reason.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
As long as Islam is practiced as it is in the Muslim world today, we will simply be trading one theocratic dictatorship for another.

Wrong.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
You can't wipe out an ideology with military force. Islam needs a Reformation and an Enlightenment.

You do not achieve that by isolating the Islamic world. There seems to be a lack of understanding of the Islamic world by people like you. The ideals of the moderate majority is to live in a modern global world where everyone understands everyone... these whack-heads are a threat to EVERYONE. The only way to stop radicalization is through economic progress and prosperity combined with transparency.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
I say we just close the borders from most immigration that originates from Islamic parts of developing world, deport any radical elements in European Muslim communities and let Islamic world handle its own business.

Cool! That's the fastest method to ensure that the radicals will win over the Muslim world then!

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
Eventually this policy would lead to a better and safer world when all the radical elements in the west either move to their dream caliphate, get deported or blow themselves up so that no radicals are left anymore.

Contain ISIS, let them continue to absorb radical whack heads... Just let them grow one day, then shrink them the next through battles, then repeat the cycle but never eradicate them, so that the radicals from around the world goes there to get killed.   
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 32):
The ideals of the moderate majority

Which moderate majority? The 80+% of Pakistanis who agree that apostasy should be a death penalty? The 72% of Indonesians who think that Sharia should be law of the land? The 74% of Egyptians who believe that even non-Muslim Egyptians should have to live by Sharia?*

I mean, I doubt that even 80% of Americans believe that women should be allowed to vote or that Congress should not establish a national religion even though both of those are major parts of our Constitutional amendments.

*http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Step 1: Admit that you have an extremism problem.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 32):
There seems to be a lack of understanding of the Islamic world by people like you.

No, I really don't think there is. I think there is a lack of understanding of the Islamic world by Muslims.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Perhaps it will take a couple of major attacks until Europe will finally wake up and start taking issues with Islamic radicalism seriously enough.

How many Western citizens were running away to join an Islamic terrorist army thousands of miles away in the year 2000?
14 years of "war on terror" later, and the fear, the rhetoric, the overreaching laws continue. There's no exit strategy, there's no backpedaling and getting our rights back. The issue isn't that "all the Muslims have gone mad!" it's that arrogant, racist, colonial foreign policies are coming back to bite our collective privileged asses. And I don't want any part of that. Damascus, Jerusalem, Baghdad, etc. are not my fight.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
ISIS unlike the USSR, Iran, North Korea or Saddam's regime is capable of spawning converts ANYWHERE.

Because the West is no longer clearly on the moral high ground. Young Islamic people are (presumably) feeling more and more marginalized, targeted, and especially in a poor economy, have little purpose to their lives. That's very easy to take advantage of, especially as communication is easier and more varied than ever before.

"Look at these wars, these sweeping new laws, these speeches they're giving! The governments hate your faith and your god, they're in bed with the occupiers of the holy land, they're terrified of our religion because it is right and it is powerful! Together we can be brothers, free the holy land, and kill the infidels!"
[[Note: I think all religion is schizophrenic bullshit. I didn't just write legitimate Islamic propaganda. Fuck those guys.]]

Journalist Dan Carlin summarized it quite well: You don't go on the offensive by bombing training camps or weapons depots. That's defensive. You go on the offensive by offering a more palatable narrative, a true alternative to radical Islam that draws in young people and gives them a better life than violence and dogma. White Christian people can't be the ones spreading that message. It has to be from within. Luckily, we have "friends" in KSA and other nations. Maybe we should stop turning a blind eye to their games and tell them to focus on radicalism rather than their own brand of violent hatred.

And how come we stopped talking about funding the Syrian rebels? Oh right, because they're probably ISIL now. Well done, West. Once again you played the "enemy of my enemy" game, and once again you ended up giving guns to the dudes who are now killing you. Because the strategy was so effective in Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc etc.
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 6:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Which moderate majority?
The 72% of Indonesians who think that Sharia should be law of the land?

Let me quote you from that survey:
Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
The 80+% of Pakistanis who agree that apostasy should be a death penalty?

Islam over there is a losing battle for moderates... It's a lost case... nuke'em for all I care. By contrast, fewer Muslims back severe criminal punishments in Southeast Asia (median of 46%), Central Asia (38%), and Southern and Eastern Europe (36%). Even smaller medians in these same regions (between 13% and 27%) say apostates should face the death penalty for leaving Islam to join another religion.
And sorry, Pakistan do not form the majority if Islam.

In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%).

In that survey:
Overall, it states that: Extremism Widely Rejected
Whereas 53% of those interviewed in Indonesia are worried about Muslim extremism. You cannot be an extremist to be worried about extremism, and you can be a moderate and not worry about extremism. Therefore, the majority would be moderates.

You need to understand that Sharia and extremism are two different thing. And no, Sharia doesn't automatically mean that thieves should have their hands cut off... only 45% believe that Sharia has a single interpretation.

53% think Islamic parties are the same with other non-Islamic parties... coz they're all just as corrupt (yes, the Islamic party here are caught up in various corruption scandals)...

Only 30% think religious leaders should have a strong influence, 50% or so think religious leaders should have some influence, but that, plus those who think the religious leaders should not have inflience, form the majority... but for "some influence" (usually family/domestic matters and business/financial ethics), the majority wants religious leaders to have at least some influence...

And the majority don't believe we should convert others into Islam... etc

And when I said the ideals of a moderate majority, 70% said there is no conflict between religion and modern society.

That majority... or is that the majority you fail to, or refuse to see?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Step 1: Admit that you have an extremism problem.

We do... No one listens when we say we do. (Just like no one cares when we execute terrorists, but if one gets a light sentence, it makes global news).

A slight majority are concerned... 53% in that survey for Indonesia, and the survey shows this:
In a majority of countries surveyed, at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism. And on balance, more Muslims are concerned about Islamic than Christian extremist groups.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
No, I really don't think there is. I think there is a lack of understanding of the Islamic world by Muslims.

Which part of this in the survey don't you understand?
Extremism Widely Rejected
and
at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism

Because clearly, as opethfan wrote:

Quoting opethfan (Reply 34):
The issue isn't that "all the Muslims have gone mad!"

And yes, the offensive should be:

Quoting opethfan (Reply 34):
Journalist Dan Carlin summarized it quite well: You don't go on the offensive by bombing training camps or weapons depots. That's defensive. You go on the offensive by offering a more palatable narrative, a true alternative to radical Islam that draws in young people and gives them a better life than violence and dogma. White Christian people can't be the ones spreading that message. It has to be from within. Luckily, we have "friends" in KSA and other nations. Maybe we should stop turning a blind eye to their games and tell them to focus on radicalism rather than their own brand of violent hatred.

This is damn right! Unfortunately, people who try to offer a more palatable narrative, a true alternative to radical Islam in preaching a better life than violence and dogma, is slammed down by the "damn you Muslims" crowd.   

Sometimes I wonder, who is now causing the extremism?

Bitter pill to swallow by the world... not just the west, but everyone... this is EVERYONE's problem
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 10:50 am

New Police Chief Commissioner announced in these parts today.

Rather telling that the person that has been appointed is not a head-kicking crime fighter of old, but a counter-terrorism expert, who was the senior Australian officer on the ground in the first Bali bombing. His announcement as commissioner also came with a stark warning......

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/gr...ctoria-police-20150525-gh8y6v.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/in...graham-ashton-20150525-gh9b98.html

[Edited 2015-05-25 04:02:19]
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
Extremism Widely Rejected
and
at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism

By which they mean violent jihadists.

But Sharia is widely accepted and Sharia teaches that violence in the name of religion is OK (and yes, I read your bit about how some Muslims in the ME reject the violent punishments). That said, even in Malaysia, 60+% of Muslims believe that adultery should be punished by stoning.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%).

By contrast with the Western World those numbers (not just the ones in this quote) are atrocious. Now, Muslims in Indonesia are more moderate than in other places, but all in all, Islam has an extremism problem. And denying it isn't going to make it go away. As the world becomes more global and as the terrorists get more destructive, the calls for genocide will get louder. I worry about the day humanity does something it regrets.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
This is damn right! Unfortunately, people who try to offer a more palatable narrative, a true alternative to radical Islam in preaching a better life than violence and dogma, is slammed down by the "damn you Muslims" crowd.

That's what I would like to see. The solution isn't more violence. That rarely ends violence.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting opethfan (Reply 34):
How many Western citizens were running away to join an Islamic terrorist army thousands of miles away in the year 2000?
14 years of "war on terror" later, and the fear, the rhetoric, the overreaching laws continue. There's no exit strategy, there's no backpedaling and getting our rights back. The issue isn't that "all the Muslims have gone mad!" it's that arrogant, racist, colonial foreign policies are coming back to bite our collective privileged asses. And I don't want any part of that. Damascus, Jerusalem, Baghdad, etc. are not my fight.

Admittedly western foreign policy toward Islamic world has been an absolute disaster, promoting democracy and freedoms in societies that aren't civilized and advanced enough for them is a recipe for disaster. That doesn't mean we should just stand by and accept terrorism as a natural consequence of our failed policies. No, we should simply get rid of radicals in Europe through stricter immigration, anti-terrorism laws and better border control.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 32):
Cool! That's the fastest method to ensure that the radicals will win over the Muslim world then!

Radicals may win over the Muslim world only if the majority of the population supports their cause. If that's the case then why delay the inevitable? I rather have ISIS in Middle-East than ISIS in Europe. It's up to the people of Islamic countries to decide what kind of governments and laws they want.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 32):
Contain ISIS, let them continue to absorb radical whack heads... Just let them grow one day, then shrink them the next through battles, then repeat the cycle but never eradicate them, so that the radicals from around the world goes there to get killed.   

I'm afraid at some point they would realize their fight is hopeless and head back to Europe to commit terror attacks.

Oh well, as always the Swedes have an original approach to this issue. They are offering returning ISIS terrorists jobs, money and therapy for the traumatizing experiences they must have encountered while slaughtering and raping civilians. That must work so well, right? So, if you are an unemployed Swede just join ISIS and come back to get a job.   

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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
Captured Ramadi despite US air strikes in that theatre

The US probably deliberately missed.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
they'll have to start acting like adults.

They believe that they are acting like adults and I can't really see them changing. Without terror they would be at risk.

Quoting polot (Reply 2):
The reason why the world is apathetic? The world is suffering from ME violence fatigue,

Thank you W and Dick and Rummy. That totally unnecessary invasion kick started the 10 year mess in the ME and I believe that we are looking at more generations of turmoil there. Radical muslims will be prepared for a 100 year war and the rest of the world can't even handle 10 years. The US certainly can't handle the price that has to be paid - like tax increases to handle growth in the military (and VA) spending as well as bringing back the draft to ensure a continual inflow of personnel - just like back in the days of Vietnam.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):
can you imagine the reaction in Israel with ISIS as their direct neighbour with a common border?

It would be violent to say the least.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

Even if Israel cleaned out their nuclear stockpile over the weekend they will not wipe out ISIS.
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Mon May 25, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 8):
Israel could wipe out ISIS in a weekend.

Even if Israel cleaned out their nuclear stockpile over the weekend they will not wipe out ISIS.

No, it would recruit even more for IS and probably would even start attacks on US soil.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 1:24 am

If ISIS does take Syria, and starts aiming at Israel, could we see an Israel/KSA/Lebanon/Jordan coalition against ISIS?
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
That doesn't mean we should just stand by and accept terrorism as a natural consequence of our failed policies. No, we should simply get rid of radicals in Europe through stricter immigration, anti-terrorism laws and better border control.

That is easier said that done because a lot of those terrorists 7/7, Charlie Hebdo, The Texas one etc. are being committed not by the people whom chose to immigrate to those respective countries but their locally born children whom wanted a better life.

A lot of this has to do with the state of the global economy and the lack of opportunity due to the economy and discrimination than more than people want to admit. With abundant opportunity people are not desperate and will be less likely to want to run an join a "gang" like ISIS.

One of the reason that North America does not have as big an issue with Muslims in general is that they have been given the opportunity to integrate into our society and be productive much more effective than in Europe.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
I rather have ISIS in Middle-East than ISIS in Europe. It's up to the people of Islamic countries to decide what kind of governments and laws they want.

Do that internally by welcoming them and offering them a better life with opportunity. Don't bring them in and then discriminate against and isolate them, that will create resentment down the line. If you are going to do that then stop immigration from specific countries all together and Europe is a group of sovereign nations that can make that collective decision.

I would say that most Muslim immigrants wish to live in western society because of the opportunities that are available and have the freedom to express themselves. We should be embracing that difference provided that their beliefs don't lead to crimes crimes in western countries (killing because of cartoons and honour killings coming to mind.)
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting opethfan (Reply 34):
And how come we stopped talking about funding the Syrian rebels? Oh right, because they're probably ISIL now. Well done, West. Once again you played the "enemy of my enemy" game, and once again you ended up giving guns to the dudes who are now killing you. Because the strategy was so effective in Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc etc.

It's amazing really, we/they arm rebels to weaken the only people opposing ISIS in Syria.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
Which part of this in the survey don't you understand?
Extremism Widely Rejected
and
at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism

You don't find that statement very alarming? What about the 49% who have no concerns?

Good to know only 784 million Muslims would be at best apathetic about slicing my neck if I failed to convert. I was worried before, 1.6 billion Muslims seemed like a lot. /sarcasm

As for the survey, you can point to regions/countries with less extreme views, the underlying trend in all areas points towards more radical Islamification.
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 4:30 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
As far as solutions go, I think the USA has to put the squeeze Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey to stop all money going into ISIS like groups. Even if it means sanctioning them or cutting off military sales. Then I think you need to form a Sunni militia in the mold of Iran's Shia militia to fight back. I think you also need to force in a Sunni PM in Iraq as well which they have not had for 8-9 years. Its the only way.

I've been saying follow the money since the first ISIS thread, but they can't, to many people high up in the royal families are involved.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 42):

If ISIS does take Syria, and starts aiming at Israel, could we see an Israel/KSA/Lebanon/Jordan coalition against ISIS?

I doubt it, IMHO we are more likely to see Israel roll up through Syria to the Iraq border first, and killing everything that breathes on he way there. The big issue is seperating ISIS fighters from civilians, Israel wouldn't care.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
A lot of this has to do with the state of the global economy and the lack of opportunity due to the economy and discrimination than more than people want to admit. With abundant opportunity people are not desperate and will be less likely to want to run an join a "gang" like ISIS.

This is so true, but totally missed by the majority of the people.

What are the Kurds doing in all this?
 
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 4:35 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 45):
I've been saying follow the money since the first ISIS thread, but they can't, to many people high up in the royal families are involved.

That's easy to fix:

"Hi, KSA. You want our help with ISIS? You'd like to purchase US Military equipment? Knock it off. Otherwise, you're on your own."

But we have to be ready to give up Saudi oil forever.
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
"Hi, KSA. You want our help with ISIS? You'd like to purchase US Military equipment? Knock it off. Otherwise, you're on your own."

But we have to be ready to give up Saudi oil forever.

We have tons of oil in Bakken. We can live forever on Bakken and even Alberta tar sands. Because that is how we can be energy independent. Bakken and Alberta don't go anywhere but USA! /sarcasm
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3289
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 5:35 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
We have tons of oil in Bakken. We can live forever on Bakken and even Alberta tar sands. Because that is how we can be energy independent. Bakken and Alberta don't go anywhere but USA! /sarcasm

That does lead to an interesting thought, which probably deserves it's own thread, what will happen to the KSA when the oil does run out?
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 48):
That does lead to an interesting thought, which probably deserves it's own thread, what will happen to the KSA when the oil does run out?

women get to drive?

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