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mandala499
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
That's what I would like to see. The solution isn't more violence. That rarely ends violence.

Lots of efforts are being done on the grass roots level, but I fear that it's not enough. Unfortunately, the government's ministry of religious affairs where I am is the most corrupt ministry in the country and therefore inept at quelling the issue. The military's social-political security wing is the active one, but then the rivalry with the police's anti-terrorism branch is causing problems... At least police is acting upon local caliphate bombers wannabe, the military acting against local IS splinter and wannabe groups (under "treason" charges, which is for the military to deal with, unlike regional rebellion, which is police affair until president decides otherwise). But whatever has been done, is only a tiny fraction on what needs to be done.

The ISIS issue forms a small part in the resistance against extremists. It's very hard to go against the "sponsored wahhabis", and the established "Islamic Scientologists" (my own term to describe them)... The war on social media is huge, the war in semi-mainstream media is bloody. The methods used by extremists to gain sympathy is quite unique. They prey on moderate Muslim's feeling of vulnerability to the west, by spreading misinformation, and hoaxes, which is on the rise like you wouldn't believe...

Moderate Ulemas are under attack by the extremists, but remain quite popular with the majority of the people. All TV and radio stations can have their licenses revoked if they allow religious extremist preachings go on air, for whatever religions. I appeared on a Christian evangelist radio a month ago, and after the show we had a long discussion on their views on religious extremism in the media. I was quite surprised that they too are having problems dealing with Christian extremists (something you don't hear everyday), and they fired at least 2 radio evangelists for being too extreme. When asked, "how many of the Muslim one you hear got fired?" "Countless, but there's so many of them I don't think we've scratched the surface yet!" It's a problem. The extremists try to infiltrate mainstream media too.

The largest anti-extremist movement was hit badly several years ago when their peaceful demonstrations were attacked by extremists... didn't made the news outside, much to the disappointment of local moderates, who since decided, "screw it, they don't want to help us, we gotta do it alone..."

Heck, we got Jehova's Witnesses being thrown out of the local Christian community because they are deemed as "fuelling extremism" after they tried to convert Muslims on behalf of the Christian community... Sadly, the Muslim extremists didn't care about the differences between the various Christian churches and sects...

What the west can do to help is to help using their experience on how to deal with cults, and how to deal with cults when they become dangerous after they get big... We had a lot of assistance on this in the 70s and 80s, where this was the domain of "social political stability" under the military... It is strongly alleged that Israel sent a few of their top experts here to assist, behind closed doors. We're getting to the stage where we're weary of this, if we don't get help and understanding, we might just run out of steam and give up.

Extremism isn't the majority here, but we see it's threat everywhere, in all aspects of life... that gets us edgy... I've lost several friends to the "extremist cults"... money and brainwashing... never underestimate it... and the world isn't ready to give up it's addiction to Saudi oil...

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
I rather have ISIS in Middle-East than ISIS in Europe. It's up to the people of Islamic countries to decide what kind of governments and laws they want.

Would you say the same if we're talking about Nazi Germany? You'd rather have Nazis in Germany than in Finland and it's up to the people of Finland to decide what kind of governments and laws they want even if that means get the Nazis in power? (this is hypothetical).

The underlying reasons of people wanting to join the Nazis in Germany and those in today's world wanting to join ISIS isn't too different. Hopelessness where you are, hope exists with the extremists. Blame others for your misfortunes. Intimidation of those who are not supportive. Brainwashing of those who are undecided or persuade-able.

Like Nazis believe in the Lebensraum expansion, ISIS believes in expanding the caliphate through conquest.

And oh... they're both thugs. (but am sure we all know that by now).

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
They are offering returning ISIS terrorists jobs, money and therapy for the traumatizing experiences they must have encountered while slaughtering and raping civilians. That must work so well, right? So, if you are an unemployed Swede just join ISIS and come back to get a job.

Oh My God! I'm crossing Sweden off my "anti-extremism" list of countries then... Geez!!!!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
You don't find that statement very alarming? What about the 49% who have no concerns?

I should have made it clear. 53% of Indonesian Muslims worried about Muslim extremism, 4% are worried about Christian extremism (yes, they do exist here), and 18% are worried about both extremists. So, total worried about extremism is 78% and worried about Muslim extremism is 74%. The problem here is with regards to the remaining 26%, how many of those who are not worried, are simply not worried, or support extremism?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
Good to know only 784 million Muslims would be at best apathetic about slicing my neck if I failed to convert. I was worried before, 1.6 billion Muslims seemed like a lot. /sarcasm

Oh don't worry, if you convert and decided to not like it, only 18% in my country's 200 million Muslims would agree to your execution...    *yes, sarcasm*

Btw, where does it say how many % would like to see "convert or die" policy being applied?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 44):
As for the survey, you can point to regions/countries with less extreme views, the underlying trend in all areas points towards more radical Islamification.

I think the survey is helpful in identifying areas where curbing the radicalization of Islam can be done and won. There really is no point in trying to do that in places where the moderates have clearly lost it.. It would be like going to the Knesset dressed as Adolf Hitler...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
But we have to be ready to give up Saudi oil forever.

This is the answer.
Then after that, take control of Mecca and Medinah away from the Saud family... How dare they turn Mecca into a Sharia compliant Las Vegas... OK, I guess my visa application for Hajj would be rejected now.   Yes, that's the control they exert. Last time Iran had a squabble with the Sauds, they just told Iran, "Your Hajj quota this year is now... zero. Say sorry and we may give you a quota next year."
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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sebolino
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 7:54 am

I believe it's only a question of time before the US-led coalition sends troops on the ground to eradicate ISIS.

The elimination of Saddam Hussein based on fake evidences was a major blunder by the USA, and the elimination of Khaddafi was a big mistake too, by the western coalition, but ISIS is not a fake threat, they just want to destroy the Western and non muslim world and to enslave all muslims in their sect, and I'm afraid we'll have no choice at all but to strike back much harder than we're doing now.
When terrorist attacks will occur on a weekly basis in Europe and US, you'll see western leaders be much more motivated to have a real reaction.

I remember all the buzz about the so-called "Weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, that never existed.
Now, we know that ISIS is trying to get this kind of weapons, there's no need to build up evidences for that, just to remember the terrorist attacks lately (Bruxelles, Paris, Copenhagen, Tunis, Riyad ... ).

[Edited 2015-05-26 00:57:29]
 
bennett123
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 10:57 am

IMO, there are several keys points here;

1. Lack of military resistance. Both in Iraq and Nigeria, the army is being beaten by or running from ISIS/Boko Haram.

ISIS and Boko Haram can only be beaten by local forces, (with support from the west).

Why are the local armies not capable or prepared to fight back.

2. KSA and Saudi need to face the common enemy. Frankly, if Yemen is any indicator, then KSA is more interested in putting Iran in it's place than stopping AQAP.

That could be an expensive mistake in the long run. I doubt that an AQAP govt in Yemen would be suitably grateful.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 12:07 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 48):
what will happen to the KSA when the oil does run out?

We should definitely open a thread on this. In the meantime, my guess is that shortly before oil completely runs out the KSA will probably have gone through some type of reform (as would Iran and the other Gulf monarchies). As oil is slowly depleted, only those nations that haven't been able to move to another source of energy will still be consuming it. By then I would hope that the US is mostly with renewable, using oil only for plastic and other synthetic materials. Thus, no need to maintain a presence in Persian Gulf countries.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 5:57 pm

ISIS is winning? Sure Ramadi is a set back, but look at how little they've progressed since we've started the campaign. Also, try and understand the Sunni-Shiite problem in Iraq and the fall of Ramadi, the taking back of Tikrit, and why Baghdad probably won't fall make a lot more sense.

We're doing the max we should do. The Iraq War was a huge, bloody mistake. We don't need to throw trillions more dollars at the problem or waste any more troops in the fight. If we don't do something, guess what, the other countries in the region that hate ISIS will continue to complain but they'll be forced to engage them.

You don't think all the surrounding countries are overhyping ISIS and trying to make Americans feel like pussies so we'll throw a bunch of troops into the meat grinder? No, no, no, not our problem! ISIS is trying to troll us into war and so are the other countries in the region (for different motives obviously.) I think the greatest propaganda tool ISIS has are the people screaming bloody murder and gloom and doom that ISIS is unstoppable just because they took over Ramadi (again, look at the Sunni-Shiite drama in the Iraqi government and the fall of Ramadi doesn't mean much)
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 52):
Why are the local armies not capable or prepared to fight back.

they are capable but for the most part unwilling because they're tired of war too! They feel they don't have a future, biggest mistake of the past 13 years in Iraq was disbanding the Iraq military, then having to re-build it from scratch and hope like hell you didn't recruit the wrong people.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 52):
2. KSA and Saudi need to face the common enemy. Frankly, if Yemen is any indicator, then KSA is more interested in putting Iran in it's place than stopping AQAP.

well that is true...KSA has 100,000+ fighting for Yemen and lots of air muscle, but not much directed at IS...makes you wonder who's funding IS.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 54):
ISIS is winning?

having an impact, yes..winning, well they control almost 60% of Syria so that's a fairly large chunk of sand. I wonder how long it will be before the Russian's have something to say on the matter?! I agree that the US is being suckered into this mess and needs to stay well away.
 
rwessel
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Tue May 26, 2015 11:48 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 55):
biggest mistake of the past 13 years in Iraq was disbanding the Iraq military, then having to re-build it from scratch and hope like hell you didn't recruit the wrong people.

Well, there's going in at all...

But ignoring that, going in with less than half the forces the generals said were needed to occupy the country has to rank as a bigger mistake, and the de-Ba'athification of the Iraqi civil service has to be a mistake on par with disbanding the Iraqi army.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 42):

If ISIS does take Syria, and starts aiming at Israel, could we see an Israel/KSA/Lebanon/Jordan coalition against ISIS?

I can't see anyone but Jordan and KSA working together. I could see Israel creating a 10-30KM buffer like they did in Lebanon but remember the 15 year occupation of that buffer basically lead to Hezbollah and a war of attrition.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 45):
What are the Kurds doing in all this?

They are defending their territory. They are not active in Ramadi. Remember Kurds are small in number. Your looking at maybe 6 million total. Smallest of the 3.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 55):
I agree that the US is being suckered into this mess and needs to stay well away.

That's a mistake IMO. You're going to loose the whole thing (the entire Levant) to a group much more virulent than the Baathist ever were. They will genocide every religious minority in reach. Eventually they will threaten both Kuwait and/or Saudi Arabia with their vast oil reserves and send everyone into a 3-4 yr recession. Then they will spawn numerous terrorists attacks in the West.

I'm not advocating putting in 100k troops. But you need 10,000 in Baghdad to secure it and protect the backsides of Iraqis as they go into Ramadi and Mosul. The morale boost of having some Americans in Baghdad and letting them know they are not abandoned will be huge. Iraqis fought much better with Americans in country. You have to put in a Sunni leader in Baghdad and you have to keep Shia Militias out of Sunni areas after its been cleared. Close Air Support with A-10s is needed too. Without any US troops in Iraq, there is not even a staging area for A-10s or Spectre gunships.

ISIS is cancer that just keeps spreading. If you ignore it will just continue to spread. The only wall of resistance is Iran where they cannot expand into for religious and military reasons. Everywhere else from KSA, to Turkey, to Egypt, to Afghanistan, to even the West will have these offshoots.
 
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seb146
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 3:42 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
Everywhere else from KSA, to Turkey, to Egypt, to Afghanistan, to even the West will have these offshoots.

There will be sympathizers and other groups the same or worse as IS. Just like when Saddam was forced from power.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
mandala499
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 6:33 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 54):
ISIS is trying to troll us into war and so are the other countries in the region (for different motives obviously.) I think the greatest propaganda tool ISIS has are the people screaming bloody murder and gloom and doom that ISIS is unstoppable just because they took over Ramadi (again, look at the Sunni-Shiite drama in the Iraqi government and the fall of Ramadi doesn't mean much)

ISIS is trying to troll everyone into war. Not just the US.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 55):
KSA has 100,000+ fighting for Yemen and lots of air muscle, but not much directed at IS...makes you wonder who's funding IS.

  
It does raise questions. But I think it is not the Saud family financing IS. Some (especially the Palestinians) think this is Israel's little game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5nigZzgf4Y

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
I can't see anyone but Jordan and KSA working together.

Jordan's air power was focused at IS, but now with Yemen...
I somehow think that Yemen is a deliberate distraction set by "certain forces" in KSA to take the focus on IS.
KSA seems to be doing it's utmost to peeve of Shi'ites, so that it can rally all the Sunnis in the world to join it's cause...
But then, IS is doing the same.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
That's a mistake IMO. You're going to loose the whole thing (the entire Levant) to a group much more virulent than the Baathist ever were. They will genocide every religious minority in reach. Eventually they will threaten both Kuwait and/or Saudi Arabia with their vast oil reserves and send everyone into a 3-4 yr recession. Then they will spawn numerous terrorists attacks in the West.

Throwing Saddam out they way it was done was a mistake... but seriously, if you want to throw in US troops there, limit it to securing "vital locations", nothing more.
ISIS wants the US to come and fight, and read that article on IS posted by

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 6):
Might I suggest this excellent article on ISIS? http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...4980/
The Islamic State awaits the army of “Rome,” whose defeat at Dabiq, Syria, will initiate the countdown to the apocalypse.
"Rome", could mean Turkey as the replacement of the Eastern Roman Empire, whose the Ottoman Empire (the previous Caliphate) was the successor state prior to the Turkish republic... Or, it could mean the "army/armies of the infidel", to which America would suit it nicely.
This is why foreign intervention to the Syrian crisis via Turkey was prevented... with that not happening, IS became what it was to taunt it further.
Then what?
After its battle in Dabiq, Cerantonio said, the caliphate will expand and sack Istanbul. Some believe it will then cover the entire Earth, but Cerantonio suggested its tide may never reach beyond the Bosporus. An anti-Messiah, known in Muslim apocalyptic literature as Dajjal, will come from the Khorasan region of eastern Iran and kill a vast number of the caliphate’s fighters, until just 5,000 remain, cornered in Jerusalem. Just as Dajjal prepares to finish them off, Jesus—the second-most-revered prophet in Islam—will return to Earth, spear Dajjal, and lead the Muslims to victory.
Now, sending a military force, would incite a huge wave or recruits, those who were relatively moderate, given this form of argument could easily be recruited, either voluntarily, or by force/intimidation by the extremists in all parts of the globe. This form of argument already has pulled lots of otherwise moderate Turks into joining IS, either voluntarily or by intimidation/peer pressure (usually easily disillusioned youngsters).

The risks of wide-scale escalation in a botched job is just too great. Containment carries less risk.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
ISIS is cancer that just keeps spreading. If you ignore it will just continue to spread. The only wall of resistance is Iran where they cannot expand into for religious and military reasons. Everywhere else from KSA, to Turkey, to Egypt, to Afghanistan, to even the West will have these offshoots.

ISIS sees enemies in all those around it. They are not like Al-Qaeda which is unique amongst jihadist grous in focusing on "far off enemies". IS would like US to crumble and die, but it's priorities are to expand the caliphate. It's current priorities are to deal with the Shiites and then the Saud family.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
Close Air Support with A-10s is needed too. Without any US troops in Iraq, there is not even a staging area for A-10s or Spectre gunships.

Cool... let's send the A-10s slated for retirement to the Jordanian Air Force   

Quoting seb146 (Reply 58):
There will be sympathizers and other groups the same or worse as IS. Just like when Saddam was forced from power.

The main problem outside the region with IS is the sympathizers.. not IS itself. Some sympathizers may decide (and some have decided) to pledge allegiance to IS, or to set up a vassal caliphate... The original IS itself, only sees expansion by conquest as "legitimate", so they need to spread out from their "original" territory to neighbouring areas, and expand that way.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
opethfan
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
ISIS is cancer that just keeps spreading. If you ignore it will just continue to spread.

Will it? Will it really?

I'm not sure it actually will. Don't get me wrong, they seem to be filthy, pathetic excuses for humans (although is every single dumb kid who runs away really out to garrote every non-equally radical Muslim in the room? - Possibly, since their "horrors" seem to be quite oft-described.) but so far they've taken over parts of two countries that are notorious for civil war, invasions, and sectarian violence in quite politically important, unstable regions. They haven't come across any real opposition yet, like ground forces and combined attacks from a well-trained, well-equipped nation-state with modern technology and weapons.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
The only wall of resistance is Iran where they cannot expand into for religious and military reasons. Everywhere else from KSA, to Turkey, to Egypt, to Afghanistan, to even the West will have these offshoots.

Either all Muslims are inherently the same type of evil people that do these beheadings, in which case we have a real problem on our hands already; or they're not and therefore ISIL will quite swiftly find their shortage of ideological, financial, and all other types of support.

I don't think the situation is intrinsically linked to Nazi Germany at all. That said, Neo-Naziism is not a concern to most citizens nowadays. Communist revolutions are not. I think there just always has to be a boogeyman, and it's up to us not to be lead in one blind direction like the victim of a confidence trick "oh yeah, I just told you there's a really bad thing happening and you have to do exactly as I say!"
 
Derico
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 12:55 pm

Islamic extremism is a problem for Europe, India, China, Israel, North America, and Africa. Both because they don't like you too much, and also because inside your nations live these extremists which then leave for the battle fields.

It is not any threat or problem for us, so there is no reason for us to care or get involved. Your problem, you deal with it, you know.
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pvjin
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 1:11 pm

Quoting opethfan (Reply 60):
Either all Muslims are inherently the same type of evil people that do these beheadings, in which case we have a real problem on our hands already; or they're not and therefore ISIL will quite swiftly find their shortage of ideological, financial, and all other types of support.

I don't think the situation is intrinsically linked to Nazi Germany at all. That said, Neo-Naziism is not a concern to most citizens nowadays. Communist revolutions are not. I think there just always has to be a boogeyman, and it's up to us not to be lead in one blind direction like the victim of a confidence trick "oh yeah, I just told you there's a really bad thing happening and you have to do exactly as I say!"

Well, Islamic extremism certainly is a very legitimate and serious concern unlike Neo Nazis and commies. Even from my country with rather small Muslim community dozens of people have left to fight for ISIS. Especially among Muslim immigrant communities from the very poorest parts of Islamic world radical Muslims clearly aren't as tiny of a minority as people would like to think. With "radical" I don't only mean those who go join ISIS but also those who sympathize with them.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Flighty
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Thread starter):
The ramifications of this are very serious. Syria and Iraq could collapse as nation states and we could see major acts of genocide. The world apathy over this is a real shame. There is no real plan to deal with it. If you thought dealing with Iran is bad, imagine dealing with the Islamic State for the next 50 years.

So you're saying, the ramifications of American policy deposing S. Hussein and weakening Assad in Syria are very serious.

It is almost as if America is realizing that the true enemy is American hawks. They did this. If we could go back, the solution would be to disable American hawks.

Quoting Derico (Reply 61):
Islamic extremism is a problem for Europe, India, China, Israel, North America, and Africa. Both because they don't like you too much, and also because inside your nations live these extremists which then leave for the battle fields.

It is not any threat or problem for us, so there is no reason for us to care or get involved. Your problem, you deal with it, you know.

I agree but that has been true for centuries. It was empowered in the post 9/11 era by American military extremism. Totally agree that the solution is to allow self government of the affected areas. American hegemony will only serve to justify and glorify ISIS in the eyes of billions.
 
wingman
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
That's a mistake IMO. You're going to loose the whole thing (the entire Levant) to a group much more virulent than the Baathist ever were. They will genocide every religious minority in reach. Eventually they will threaten both Kuwait and/or Saudi Arabia with their vast oil reserves and send everyone into a 3-4 yr recession. Then they will spawn numerous terrorists attacks in the West.

We gave Saddam power against Iran, then we changed our minds and kicked his ass twice, then just killed him, then we had a bunch of incredibly stupid fat white people (Cheney, Bush, Wolfoputz and Fox News) screaming for us to invade Syria to put ISIS into Damascus even faster, and now all of a sudden we have to save Assad and Syria from ISIS.

It's enough to make your head explode at the insanity. Arabs, and Muslims in general, need to figure out which version of the Koran they want to follow, is it going to be v1.0 cray cray caveman Koran, or 2.0 Asian/Turkish style where joining the 21st C has more appeal. Right now, in my opinion, I don't care what Pew research says, Muslims may be worried but I sure as shit don't see them out in the streets arguing against v1.0 cray cray. If you stand for something so important, or against something so important, you better do more than express your opinion during an anonymous phone call.

My vote: no longer our problem, let's fix our own healthcare and our own bridges.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):

ISIS overrunning regions that don't at least have a large minority who support strict Sharia is not going to happen. ISIS is a form of civil war. Civil wars are difficult because you are asking one army to take up arms against an aggressor who they may be sympathetic to, have friends or relatives in, etc.

Israel will easily defend the Gollan. It's why they occupy it in a he first place. Anyone who's been there know s that as any force tries to cross the area they are easy targets for a very well equipped Israeli Air Force.

And should they attempt to invade any town, there won't be 50% friendlies living there who will turn in others, there won't be a lackluster military, there won't be a majority Muslim population to receive them. An army of 100s won't defeat an army of thousands as in Ramadi
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 64):
Right now, in my opinion, I don't care what Pew research says, Muslims may be worried but I sure as shit don't see them out in the streets arguing against v1.0 cray cray.

Many places lack the "freedom of speech" clause or have it but it's constantly suppressed. Not to mention, old fashioned clerics may interpret any criticism as blasphemy, possibly in countries where the penalty is death. But if the West is "indifferent" why shouldn't Western Muslims be as well?

Quoting wingman (Reply 64):
My vote: no longer our problem, let's fix our own healthcare and our own bridges.

  

Enough damage has been caused by meddling in the region.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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winterlight
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Wed May 27, 2015 6:45 pm

Tony Blair has resigned as ME "Peace Envoy". What a great job he did.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 57):
ISIS is cancer that just keeps spreading. If you ignore it will just continue to spread.

1: We aren't ignoring it, 2: Will it keep spreading? I don't think that it will. ISIS has been doing pretty poorly since we started the airstrikes, and then they achieve this victory and everyone goes nuts. Again, take Iraqi internal politics into account when talking about the fall of Ramadi... it wasn't simply ISIS beating down all Iraq has to offer. And to compare Ramadi to Baghdad? Apples to oranges

I'm not buying it. There is probably more we can do, and Iraq really needs to get its **** together (in regards to the Shiite-Sunni conflict,) but I don't think we need a single boot on the ground (except Special Forces, I'm somewhat arbitrarily okay with that.)

We're stupidly sliding right back into it again. There is always some reason to go in, some urgent thing that needs to be addressed, just like every other conflict. Nah, not for it (unfortunately, more and more people are, and I am thinking we may actually go in, incrementally, but in nonetheless)
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 1:38 am

Well it seems Donald Trump (of all people) knows how to defeat ISIS, defeating them quickly and effectively. But he is not going to tell anyone because he might be running for president.      

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/donald-tr...at-isis-but-im-not-gonna-tell-yet/
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
mham001
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 50):
Btw, where does it say how many % would like to see "convert or die" policy being applied?

I haven't looked at the survey for awhile and understand many answers could be construed as positives in that the "majority" was moderate (did you notice Pakistan, 54% are not concerned about Muslim extremism). The overriding problem was the consistent 25-50% who do not appear to have moderate religious feelings. This is a lot of people no matter how you slice and dice it.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 55):
makes you wonder who's funding IS.

I am hoping we will one day know what they found from the ISIS accountant they nailed this month. Probably not what they want us to know though.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 56):
But ignoring that, going in with less than half the forces the generals said were needed to occupy the country has to rank as a bigger mistake, and the de-Ba'athification of the Iraqi civil service has to be a mistake on par with disbanding the Iraqi army.

And lastly, don't forget Obama's extreme rush to evacuate. The plan had always been to keep 15,000 troops or so stationed in the desert for things just like ISIS. He handed it to them. Just like Libya. And Syria with his stupid lines in the sand and supporting people who are weakening the only force fighting ISIS in Syria.
 
solarflyer22
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Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 66):
Many places lack the "freedom of speech" clause or have it but it's constantly suppressed. Not to mention, old fashioned clerics may interpret any criticism as blasphemy, possibly in countries where the penalty is death. But if the West is "indifferent" why shouldn't Western Muslims be as well?

That's not entirely true. Religion is a 2 way sword. The religious Shiite Government of Iran immediately attacked ISIS and their ideology from the gitgo. They immediately use the world "Takfiri" (Infidel) which is exceptionally, exceptionally rare for the Ayatollahs. Even at the absolute peak of the Islamic Revolution with Ayatollah Khomeini attacking the Shah, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Israel he never once called them infidels. They've never called Jews infidels and they use the term "Zionist" because that's exactly the group the are railing against. Specifically people that believe in Zionism.

They even had a cartoon/caricature contest in Tehran to mock ISIS this week in Tehran (see link). Granted they did the same on the Holocaust but that was to prove the point the West doesn't believe in Freedom Of Speech when it comes to Judaism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ure-of-islamic-state-10275768.html

Hate on the Ayatollahs as much as you like but they immediately and persistently attacked ISIS ideology while your allies did nothing and if anything funded them.

And they did same to the Taliban long before 9/11.
 
bennett123
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 11:28 am

Mandala499

Who currently holds Dabiq.

If they were beaten there, the whole gameplan could implode.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8635
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 71):

I'm not sure where you got the notion that I'm referring to Iran. Iran is a separate case in that:
1. It is not participating in the conflict
2. Its Shiite population differs from the Sunni one involved in the conflict.

Go to Saudi Arabia and tell people to denounce ISIS. Odds are, if you do make it back, it will have been due to diplomatic pressure.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
voodoo
Posts: 1984
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RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 61):

Islamic extremism is a problem for Europe, India, China, Israel, North America, and Africa. Both because they don't like you too much, and also because inside your nations live these extremists which then leave for the battle fields.

It is not any threat or problem for us, so there is no reason for us to care or get involved. Your problem, you deal with it, you know.

Latin America is on the Islamic radar screen though. After all, we are 'all born Muslim'. Some just don't know that yet. Apparently.
http://www.whyislam.org/muslim-world/islam-in-latin-america/
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
bhill
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Isis Is Winning And World Is Apathetic

Thu May 28, 2015 3:06 pm

Isis Is Winning And the Arab World Is Apathetic....."

There, fixed it for you....no way, no how does the US need to get involved in "Religious Patricide Part Deux".....time we left them to themselves...and contain it. at OUR borders.
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