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einsteinboricua
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Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Wed May 27, 2015 12:40 pm

Quote:

The Nebraska legislature has passed a bill to repeal the state's death penalty and replace it with life without parole.

The measure, which passed Wednesday on a 32-15 vote, faces a promised veto from Gov. Pete Ricketts.
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Nebraska's senators voted to repeal the death penalty on a 32-15 vote, making it the first conservative state in decades to repeal it. Gov Ricketts, however, vetoed the bill. Nebraska's senators are now lining up to override the veto. As of the time of writing, at least one senator had decided to not vote for the override. That leaves the majority with just 31 senators; if two more back out, the override fails.

Causes for the repeal include costly litigation for the state as well as personal beliefs. The bill, however, is retroactive, so those currently in death row would be sentenced to life in jail.

I find it interesting that the pro-life folks want to defeat the override. Nothing says pro-life like being able to put people to death.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 12:07 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):

I find it interesting that the pro-life folks want to defeat the override. Nothing says pro-life like being able to put people to death.

You're equating the life of an unborn child with the life of a convicted killer?

The Pro-Life movement is really just an anti-abortion movement, just like the Pro-Choice movement is a pro-abortion movement.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 12:38 am

Call me old fashioned, but there are times when death is an appropriate sentence. We have the theatre shooter and his notebook, and we have the Boston Bomber who set the bomb behind a child and then calmly walked away as recent examples of those who have earned the sentence to my way of thinking.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
You're equating the life of an unborn child with the life of a convicted killer?

Yeah, that argument pretty much defines argument fail.  banghead 

[Edited 2015-05-27 19:29:49]
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
I find it interesting that the pro-life folks want to defeat the override.

Convicting a fetus of a felony would definitely be interesting.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
I find it interesting that the pro-life folks want to defeat the override. Nothing says pro-life like being able to put people to death.

And there it is folks, the typical liberal moral relativism at work... equating an unborn child with a criminal convicted of the most heinous of crimes (the ones to whom the death penalty typically would apply).
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 2:58 am

Despite a veto by the Governor as to ending the Death Penalty in NE, the legislature overrode it with a minimum number of votes to do so. Take another USA state off the list of those without the death penalty.

Sadly, the reason it is declining in use is not so much about morals bur money, the high costs of endless legal appeals and related expenses tipping over the costs of life without parole attracting the financial conservatives. Still, I can accept their reasons for the greater good versus the continuing use of the Death Penalty.
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
And there it is folks, the typical liberal moral relativism at work... equating an unborn child with a criminal convicted of the most heinous of crimes (the ones to whom the death penalty typically would apply).

You know, if the criminals convicted were actually guilty all of the time, I might agree with you.

They often aren't, so I can't.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
And there it is folks, the typical liberal moral relativism at work... equating an unborn child with a criminal convicted of the most heinous of crimes (the ones to whom the death penalty typically would apply).

And there you have it, folks, the typical conservative bizarre logic at work. Don't kill a few cells that don't yet have a brain more developed than an insect's--because you have arbitrarily decided that life begins at conception--but you can kill a living person, one who may turn out to be innocent if the trial was flawed?

Just saying, you can turn your Fox soundbite around the other way and it makes no less sense logically.

The Catholic church takes a consistent view that pro-life means no death penalty as well as no abortion. Do you consider the Catholic church to be a hippy liberal organization of moral relativists? Of course, in the US, many "conservatives" who happen to be Catholic ignore what the Popes say about the death penalty (and for that matter the Iraq war), but cleave to what they say about abortion.

In the end, one can divorce the issue of the death penalty from the issue of abortion quite easily, OR one can link them.

Anyway, CONGRATS TO NEBRASKA'S LAWMAKERS FOR VETOING THE BILL!
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 3:30 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
but you can kill a living person, one who may turn out to be innocent if the trial was flawed?

And in how many of the cases currently sitting in death row in Nebraska is there any doubt about the author of the crimes, versus punks not even trying to pretend they are innocent but just trying to nuance their way out of a lethal injection like that Chechen dweeb in Boston?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
Do you consider the Catholic church to be a hippy liberal organization

Yes.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
You're equating the life of an unborn child with the life of a convicted killer?
Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 3):
Yeah, that argument pretty much defines argument fail.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Convicting a fetus of a felony would definitely be interesting.
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
And there it is folks, the typical liberal moral relativism at work... equating an unborn child with a criminal convicted of the most heinous of crimes

Im gonna ask all of you this then: if you were 100% certain that a fetus would grow into a criminal and commit one or more crimes, would you abort it?

If you tell me it has to be born because it's alive (as in, you're killing), why is there no qualm to kill someone? If abortion is not in line with Christian values (the reason many, including the Church, advocate against it) why is capital punishment? If we have a commandment that says "thou shalt not kill", why does it apply just to a fetus but not a criminal?

I'm not trying to bring in the topic of abortion here (and apparently the 4 posters not only deflected the topic but didn't even bother to have a detailed analysis); what I'm bringing are two things:
1. A conservative state stood up to its values of small government and religious views.
2. The hypocrisy of many when it comes to life. In the same way I find baffling that those who are for oil are concerned that wind turbines might kill birds but an oil spill is nothing, I find baffling that a fetus needs to be born because it's alive but a criminal is to be put to death. Where are the Christian values that many in this country like to pride themselves upon?

"Oh, a criminal killed someone so they must indeed be killed too". An eye for an eye. Well, interesting that Middle Eastern countries have this in their books too; we're outraged about such punishments there but cheer them on here. But I digress.

Even as an atheist I do not believe we have any authority to put anyone to death no matter what crime they commit. Lock them away, take away all their rights and perks that come with US citizenship. Put them to work without pay. Kill them? Even I think that's going to far. A fetus is alive, but its life is not more or less valuable than that of someone who is already born, regardless of their actions. Would the world be better off without a criminal? Absolutely. But what would killing them do, besides bring satisfaction? The dead will still be dead.

You have your views; I have mine. If someone can successfully explain to me how both abortion and the death penalty fit in with Christian values, I'll gladly give it up. For now they're two opposing sides...but hey, feel free to bash once more and not discuss the topic at hand. After all, deflecting is definitely a skill.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
The Catholic church takes a consistent view that pro-life means no death penalty as well as no abortion.

Correct, but not all pro-capital punishment types are Catholic, are they? And, quite simply, while not being Catholic, my positions on capital punishment and abortion do not flow from my religiosity, or lack thereof, but from my sense of morality.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
In the end, one can divorce the issue of the death penalty from the issue of abortion quite easily, OR one can link them.

Again, correct, but when the OP linked them, I felt free to point out that the death penalty executes a person convicted of murder, while abortion terminates an incipient life that has, quite simply, done no wrong.


Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
Don't kill a few cells

While, they are a few cells, they constitute life. When pro-abortion types use terms like: "lump of cells", "blobs", "organic matter", all they're doing is dehumanizing the embryo or fetus in order to assuage any lingering doubts they have about terminating an innocent life.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
-but you can kill a living person, one who may turn out to be innocent if the trial was flawed?

I made my position clear on capital punishment and why it doesn't work in the US fairly clear in the thread about the Boston bomber. I can only support capital punishment if:

a) guilt is assured
b) execution is timely

I say well-done to Nebraska for taking a stand and trying to end capital punishment, because I can't see where my 2 conditions will ever be met. But, if they could be met, I'm all for it.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 4:03 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I made my position clear on capital punishment and why it doesn't work in the US fairly clear in the thread about the Boston bomber. I can only support capital punishment if:

a) guilt is assured
b) execution is timely

Which, as you say, are two impossible requirements. And that's more or less my take.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
are two impossible requirements.

They are not impossible; one is actually fairly simply and the other is politically, judicially and, quite possibly, constitutionally inconvenient.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
They are not impossible; one is actually fairly simply and the other is politically, judicially and, quite possibly, constitutionally inconvenient.

Proving guilt to mathematical certainty in enough cases to actually make it worth doing? Impossible.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Proving guilt to mathematical certainty in enough cases to actually make it worth doing? Impossible.

Doc, I talked about it in the other thread. Basically, if you're relying on witness testimony...you boot the case as a capital case. If you need CSI type forensics...you boot the case. But, when you have events like Boston and Aurora, they're no-brainers.

I suspect there are plenty of cases that are clear-cut. They're just not spectacular enough for us to know about them.

I do suspect that the majority of death-row inmates would be booted to life under "my" burden of proof requirements.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 6:22 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Im gonna ask all of you this then: if you were 100% certain that a fetus would grow into a criminal and commit one or more crimes, would you abort it?

as a side note: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
Don't kill a few cells that don't yet have a brain more developed than an insect's--because you have arbitrarily decided that life begins at conception--but you can kill a living person, one who may turn out to be innocent if the trial was flawed?

Well, apparently you can't abort kids in Amerika, since it is immoral. You have to wait until it is born, fully grown and walks down a street in rainy night wearing hoodie in order to legally kill it. Being a sissy is legal justification enough, not wanting a child, no matter how thought through, can't be reason enough.
After all sex is evil, hence you need to live with the consequences of your immoral behavior and guns are good, so there missuse doesn't have consequences.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I say well-done to Nebraska for taking a stand and trying to end capital punishment,

one less state with state sponsored murder would be nice.

Rebublicans and the tea party should be cheering in joy, nothing says "small government" more than taking "rights" away from a government that it's citizens don't have! Since as a citizen you can only kill in self-defense, why can states carry out premeditated murder?

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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 6:37 am

Some good rational thinking there in the GOP members that voted.

Is it too painstaking to acquire the drugs used to kill someone via lethal injection? then just abolish it.

Rational economic thinking. Nice work, sens.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 6:39 am

I'm against the death penalty, and it has nothing to do with the "sanctity of life" (which is a made up concept - life on a macro scale really isn't that sacred when you think about it). For me it comes down to a simple concept - does the death penalty actually deter someone from committing murder? I contend there is zero evidence that the death penalty does no more to deter murder than life in prison does. If one is highly motivated enough to kill someone else, then precise levels of consequences don't even enter the thought process. If you can prove my wrong on this contention, I'm all ears.

Any viewpoints in favor of the death penalty that extend beyond that question amount to varying levels of revenge porn. If the state endorses revenge murder to satiate the victim(s)' family and friends, then whatever moral high ground you thought you may have had over the murderer is lost.

I don't mean to go too off topic, but the 2nd worse punishment you could hand out to someone after the death penalty is the 40 year prison sentence (or really any sentence greater than 30 years but short of life). Society changes so much that someone who has been trapped away from it for so long becomes useless and unable to adapt upon release (not to mention how much having a felony on your record hinders your ability to gain employment). That person will be unable to get by without government assistance and probably won't live much longer (I call it the Brooks Hatlen corollary). If someone commits a crime heinous enough to deserve more than 30 years, you might as well make the sentence life - it's really more humane.


Edit: Brooks Hatlen's name

[Edited 2015-05-27 23:43:14]
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 7:01 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 18):
For me it comes down to a simple concept - does the death penalty actually deter someone from committing murder?

Yes, I think it can, if the execution is carried out in a timely manner. What's the average time on death row? 15 years? 20? That's not a death sentence. Execute within a couple of months of sentencing and, I suspect, there will be a decrease in violent crime.

Plus, when you execute someone, that person is no longer a threat to anyone. He, most certainly, has been deterred from causing any more harm.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 18):
I don't mean to go too off topic, but the 2nd worse punishment you could hand out to someone after the death penalty is the 40 year prison sentence (or really any sentence greater than 30 years but short of life).

That would all depend on the person, wouldn't it? Yes, institutionalization is an issue, but being returned to prison isn't really that hard, is it?
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 8:03 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
Yes, I think it can,

how about proving it? There are 150 nations on this planet that don't carry out capital punishment, many of then had it at some point, so there should be ample data available to proof that capital punishment serves as a deterrent. There should be a 5 sigma correlation in there somewhere. ...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
but being returned to prison isn't really that hard, is it?

With people not coming back for lockup after their last days out of prison two weeks before their release, pissing away their parole in doing so, I am pretty sure you underestimate being locked up quite a bit.

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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 20):
I am pretty sure you underestimate being locked up quite a bit.

I'm pretty sure I do, and I hope never to find out.

Those folks all made their choices.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 20):
how about proving it?

We don't really need to. Deterrence is only part of it. It's the part that too many folks tout, but it's really just a small part. The real goal of capital punishment is to remove the offender from society and deny him any opportunity to do anyone any harm. Only one way to do that.

I suggest that deterrence can occur only if the sentence is carried out quickly.

A simple question for you about deterrence and capital punishment:

If the law said that capital punishment would be applied to any murderer (meeting the criteria for capital punishment) that commits his crime on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday; all other days, the maximum would be life imprisonment...which days do you think most violent crimes would be committed?
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
Yes, I think it can, if the execution is carried out in a timely manner.

But there's no evidence to support the argument.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
What's the average time on death row? 15 years? 20? That's not a death sentence. Execute within a couple of months of sentencing and, I suspect, there will be a decrease in violent crime.

Great. I guess it's just tough shit for those wrongly convicted of murder. Hasn't there been a couple of well publicised examples of people being released from death row recently? If you had your way, they'd have been murdered by the state long ago.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
If the law said that capital punishment would be applied to any murderer (meeting the criteria for capital punishment) that commits his crime on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday; all other days, the maximum would be life imprisonment...which days do you think most violent crimes would be committed?

Using that logic, the murder rate in the UK (no death penalty) should be much higher than the US. Oops, the murder rate per capita is about five times higher in the US.   
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 10:07 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 22):

Great. I guess it's just tough shit for those wrongly convicted of murder.

I guess you missed my first condition:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
a) guilt is assured
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
Doc, I talked about it in the other thread. Basically, if you're relying on witness testimony...you boot the case as a capital case. If you need CSI type forensics...you boot the case.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 22):
Oops, the murder rate per capita is about five times higher in the US.

See, the problem is "the murder rate". Most murders in the US, probably don't qualify for the death penalty. I'm not even sure if the numbers break out proper classifications. Crimes of passion, 2nd degree murder, etc. don't qualify for the death penalty. In most cases, for a murder to be considered for the death penalty, it must be premeditated or committed during the commission of another violent felony.

So, without qualifying data, your statistic is about as useless as nipples on a breastplate.

After a quick look for data, I can't find anything that breaks out death penalty eligible murders vs. all other murders.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
. The real goal of capital punishment is to remove the offender from society and deny him any opportunity to do anyone any harm.

The data does not support your claim. Please proof that the chance of a convicted murderer to murder again after his release is significantly higher than the chance of an ordinary criminal becoming a murderer. If you can't proof that to be a 3 sigma or so correlation, you have to execute everyone that even commits a minor crime based on that logic.
I am pretty sure that you can find a positive correlation between excessive speeding and likelihood of becoming a murderer....since you advocate murdering people for crimes they may or may not commit in the future, why not start with them?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
I'm pretty sure I do,

quite obviously you don't, otherwise you couldn't dream up a deterrence effect of capital punishment.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
If the law said that capital punishment would be applied to any murderer (meeting the criteria for capital punishment) that commits his crime on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday; all other days, the maximum would be life imprisonment...which days do you think most violent crimes would be committed?

The question is as stupid as the answer is obvious. Please proof that there is an excessive tourism of murderers across state lines to commit murder in states w/o capital punishment. That is the real world equivalents to your question after all.

Between 1991 and 2011, the first statistics I stumbled upon, show a 55% reduction in murder rates in non-death penalty states and just 51% for capital punishment states. If anything, statistically speaking, capital punishment promotes murder instead of deterring it.

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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Is it too painstaking to acquire the drugs used to kill someone via lethal injection?

Actually, last night I tuned in to the news. It turns out Gov. Ricketts was trying to convince lawmakers to keep it. Nebraska does not have the drugs required for lethal injection and he said he would buy them from India. But one little thing escaped from Mr. Ricketts: the FDA's regulations and the particular drug he would have bought from India is illegal in the states.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
He, most certainly, has been deterred from causing any more harm.

You can do that by locking them up and throwing away the key. I've (jokingly) advocated for criminals to be thrown into a desert compound, left to fend for themselves. Once they're in, there's no going out. Consider it a version of the Hunger Games. Meals provided, but no other things. Of course, human rights will quickly come in to play, but aside from sparing their lives, let nature do the rest. A criminal has no rights.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
Most murders in the US, probably don't qualify for the death penalty.

Then why keep it? Frankly, with the flawed system that we have, where unless you have concrete evidence (Aurora and Boston), it's subject to what the jury thinks, I'd be concerned. People who are wrongly accused as well and even executed only to find some time later that they were never even involved. And we can't deny that race also plays into this. Had Casey Anthony been black instead of white, would the jury have thought that there wasn't enough evidence?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 18):
For me it comes down to a simple concept - does the death penalty actually deter someone from committing murder?

Yes, I think it can, if the execution is carried out in a timely manner.

In my opinion, it doesn't. For the same reason we have rule breakers and law breakers. They will always think they can get away with it. Do you think the Aurora or Boston criminals even paused to think about the death penalty? Colorado still has it in its books; that didn't stop the guy from going to the cinema and going on a killing spree. Puerto Rico doesn't have the death penalty (the ban is enshrined in the Constitution as well). That didn't mean that I was going on a killing spree either.
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Rara
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
If the law said that capital punishment would be applied to any murderer (meeting the criteria for capital punishment) that commits his crime on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday; all other days, the maximum would be life imprisonment...which days do you think most violent crimes would be committed?

I'm pretty sure it would make no difference. Murders are committed because people believe they won't be caught. Or because of alcohol or drugs, or sudden affect, or a chain of events people have little control over.

The "I really hate my mother-in-law and want to see her dead, now how do I best go about this?" kind of murder, which you seem to be thinking of, really hardly ever happens.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
just like the Pro-Choice movement is a pro-abortion movement.

But it's not that black and white. It's a pro-choice movement. Many pro-choice people are squeamish about abortion, but understand that allowing a woman to have that choice is important in a free and democratic society.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
You know, if the criminals convicted were actually guilty all of the time, I might agree with you.

They often aren't, so I can't.

   Nevermind that it's often applied overwhelmingly against black defendants.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Quoting n229nw (Reply 8):
Do you consider the Catholic church to be a hippy liberal organization

Yes.

Oh dear god...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I made my position clear on capital punishment and why it doesn't work in the US fairly clear in the thread about the Boston bomber. I can only support capital punishment if:

a) guilt is assured
b) execution is timely

I say well-done to Nebraska for taking a stand and trying to end capital punishment, because I can't see where my 2 conditions will ever be met. But, if they could be met, I'm all for it.

I would still be opposed to the death penalty, but at least I could believe that its application wasn't as worrisome as it is now.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Which, as you say, are two impossible requirements. And that's more or less my take.

Agreed. I don't think we could ever have absolute certainty, nor can we execute in a timely fashion given legal considerations.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
Agreed. I don't think we could ever have absolute certainty, nor can we execute in a timely fashion given legal considerations.

We can in certain cases like Dzokhar Tzarnev. But those are a small minority of cases.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 24):
The data does not support your claim. Please proof that the chance of a convicted murderer to murder again after his release is significantly higher than the chance of an ordinary criminal becoming a murderer.
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 25):
You can do that by locking them up and throwing away the key.

I thought we were talking life vs. execution? A person who is put in prison for life is still a threat to the guards, other prisoners and any incidental (medical, legal, pastoral, etc) folks he may come in contact with. Or, would you deny a prisoner access to medical help or pastoral counseling?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 25):
Then why keep it? Frankly, with the flawed system that we have, where unless you have concrete evidence (Aurora and Boston), it's subject to what the jury thinks, I'd be concerned.

We don't have to keep it, as Nebraska and, 19(?) other states have shown. I'm arguing that, given the right circumstances, it can be effective. And, the states that want to keep it, should retain it. I would just like to see how it's applied changed.

Quoting Rara (Reply 26):
. Or because of alcohol or drugs, or sudden affect, or a chain of events people have little control over.

Which would not be eligible for the death penalty.

Quoting Rara (Reply 26):
The "I really hate my mother-in-law and want to see her dead, now how do I best go about this?" kind of murder, which you seem to be thinking of, really hardly ever happens.

I think you're right. But, I do think that the death penalty should be an available punishment for those that do commit premeditated murder...and those that commit murder while committing other violent felonies, which is where I suspect the bulk of death penalty cases come from..

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
Many pro-choice people are squeamish about abortion, but understand that allowing a woman to have that choice is important in a free and democratic society.

I disagree. You want to allow one-half of the population the ability to terminate a life. Or, to put it more bluntly...kill an unborn child.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
I don't think we could ever have absolute certainty,

sure, we can. Do you have any doubt that the soon-to-be martyr of Boston killed 3 people and maimed or injured 250+ more? Or that the asshole in Aurora killed 12 and injured 70? Those are just he high-profile cases. I'm sure there are many others that don't fit the national media landscape, but are just as clear-cut.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 26):
Murders are committed because people believe they won't be caught

Over 80% of the murders committed in the states are committed by someone the victim knew. Now to prove it is a different story, the reason why the clearance rate in some jurisdictions is around 60%. In Arizona according to the Department of Public Safety states there were 312 homicides in 2013 with a clearance rate of 77.9%. I would bet a large number of the 22% not solved were people murdered by persons unknown to them.

Here is some facts about murders in California for 2013

z 82.1 percent of homicide victims were male, 17.9 percent were female. (Table 5)
z Of the homicides where the victim’s race/ ethnicity was identified, 42.4 percent of victims were Hispanic, 30.7 percent were black, 21.2 percent were white, and 5.7 percent were categorized as “other.” (Table 6)
z While the largest proportion of Hispanic and black victims were aged 18-29 (47.4 and 48.3 percent, respectively), over half (56.4 percent) of white victims were aged “40 and over.” (Table 9)
z When the victim-offender relationship was identified, 46.9 percent were killed by a friend or acquaintance, 30.9 percent by stranger, and 16.5 percent by their spouse, parent, or child. Males were more likely than females to be killed by strangers (37.9 percent vs. 12.5 percent respectively). Females were more likely than males to be killed by their spouse (24.2 percent vs. 0.6 respectively). (Table 12)





https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/cjsc/publications/homicide/hm13/hm13.pdf

Now about Nebraska: other metropolises dominate headlines, the city with the highest incidence of black murder victims might raise some eyebrows: the seemingly peaceful, farming state of Nebraska's largest city, Omaha, a city of 420,000, located along the banks of the Missouri River.

http://www.ibtimes.com/omaha-nebrask...ous-place-america-be-black-1548466

[Edited 2015-05-28 13:03:07]
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Thu May 28, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
Doc, I talked about it in the other thread. Basically, if you're relying on witness testimony...you boot the case as a capital case. If you need CSI type forensics...you boot the case. But, when you have events like Boston and Aurora, they're no-brainers.

I suspect there are plenty of cases that are clear-cut. They're just not spectacular enough for us to know about them.

I do suspect that the majority of death-row inmates would be booted to life under "my" burden of proof requirements.

        
That is NOT how the justice system works.

How can you legally differentiate the two? What does "clear cut" mean? I think you're trying to say "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the standard used. So do you have cases that are beyond a reasonable doubt that do warrant the death penalty and cases that don't meet that burden? If they don't meet that burden then they aren't downgraded to non-capital cases, they are thrown out. Game over, no conviction.

The standard in which you setting out is completely contradictory to our justice system and needs an in depth explanation. I don't think it's possible to create this additional burden of proof without admitting that the other cases are lower than beyond a reasonable doubt.

All the convictions are beyond a reasonable doubt, cannot make that clearer. We are legally just as confident convicting someone based off solid DNA evidence as we are with the Boston Bombers for example, they both meet the highest realistic burden of proof we have. There isn't this splitting of hairs... if you have that, you're basically saying there is a reasonable doubt in which, again, we don't convict (vs just settling with life in prison.)

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
We can in certain cases like Dzokhar Tzarnev. But those are a small minority of cases.

Again, not the case if the justice system is working the way it should. EVERY death penalty case requires the jury to be "certain" (certain beyond a reasonable doubt.) That's not an opinion or my outlook, that is the legal definition.

We end up executing innocent people (finding out after the fact) and have exonerated people on death row. It's an imperfect system and we end up killing innocent people from time to time. Who is in favor of keeping the death penalty AND killing innocent people from time to time? 100% of pro death penalty people*, I would argue, there is no way around it. I most often see "but we KNOW X and Y did it, maybe not A or B, so give X and Y the death penalty and A and B life in prison." As discussed before, that is not how our justice system works and would require an overhaul of it... it demands a much more in depth explanation.

Any legal experts, please, correct me if I'm wrong. And anyone disagreeing with what I am saying, very meticulously lay out the differences between death penalty cases and non-death penalty cases and how the latter isn't providing a reasonable doubt that would throw out the case

Edit: *assuming the person fully understands how the legal system works in the US

[Edited 2015-05-28 14:58:06]
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
How can you legally differentiate the two? What does "clear cut" mean? I think you're trying to say "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the standard used.

I realize what the standard is, and I also realize that the evidence and witness testimony can be manipulated to meet the standard.

What I'm suggesting is that their should be some legislative guidance to direct a prosecutor to seek the death penalty only when the prosecution does not rely on witness testimony or, as I said, CSI type forensics. Right now, we rely, largely on prosecutorial discretion to decide whether or not a particular case is tried as a capital case. And, you know what? Prosecutors are political creatures...so, I tend to not trust their discretion on high profile stuff.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
What I'm suggesting is that their should be some legislative guidance to direct a prosecutor to seek the death penalty only when the prosecution does not rely on witness testimony or, as I said, CSI type forensics.

How do we define that, legally? Does the possibility of the death penalty kick in only if the prosecution calls no witnesses but only uses video or audio recordings? That seems like an impossible standard to meet. Can you even justify a conviction for premeditated murder on that sort of evidence? Let's say, for example, that Tsarnaev's lawyers suggested that he did the bombing but that he was coerced into it by someone. How is the prosecution supposed to defeat that argument without witnesses of their own?

And even if we could figure out the issue of establishing sufficient guilt, how do we deal with the fact that the death penalty is applied unequally with regard to race and income status? Whether it be prosecutors seeking it more for certain people than others (and your idea wouldn't prevent this) or juries awarding it more for certain people than others, you've got a better chance of being sent for execution if you're a minority. That's a problem.

At what point do we decide that even with the best of intentions we don't have a justice system that is capable of doing its job with regard to the death penalty, and that it's far easier to just not try to execute people than to reform the system to a point where it is capable (which, if even possible, is likely to bring along a lot of unintended consequences)?

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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):

Politicizing cases should no doubt be addressed but I think that is a different issue entirely.

My biggest criticism on the death penalty is the justice system is imperfect and it will always be. When you are killing people, a deed that cannot be undone/paid back, you CAN'T rely on anything less than 100%.

Are you (you and anyone on this board) ok with killing, let's say, 1 innocent person while executing 99 guilty people? Is it really worth it to kill people (vs letting them spend life in prison) when you're undoubtedly executing people you shouldn't? That is the reality of it

I have other moral objections but I hardly ever bring them up because I believe the killing-innocent-people argument is so common sense and rock solid that I don't even need to bring in any other arguments... yet, so many people are for the death penalty. I could be wrong, but it seems as if people want the death penalty so much they'll find ways around how they aren't executing innocent people but I don't see how you can honestly get past that. Maybe someone could explain that to me, and maybe some people are sadly ok with executing a few innocent people here and there, but I just am not seeing it
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Or, would you deny a prisoner access to medical help or pastoral counseling?

We went to the moon with less memory than my phone has right now. I'm sure there can be a way to provide these prisoners access to medical help (when needed) or pastoral counseling (a phone, perhaps?).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
thought we were talking life vs. execution?

What do both have in common? Death. One is an innocent while the other may have been guilty. But it all comes down to the same denominator.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
You want to allow one-half of the population the ability to terminate a life. Or, to put it more bluntly...kill an unborn child.

1. You're assuming that ALL women will want to have an abortion. When contraceptives are not available, the next option (assuming condoms failed) is to abort. Now, let me make my point clear: if you had a test and found you were pregnant, I do not believe you should be allowed to abort once you have a belly showing. Two months should raise eyebrows if you haven't had your period. It's one thing if you're in a stable relationship and you're not ready; it's another if you're getting laid with every guy you meet. That oops moment shouldn't be an excuse to abort. Big enough to get laid: big enough to carry to term.
2. This is kinda runs counter to the previous point: I'd rather have a woman terminate her pregnancy if she's gonna drop off her baby at an adoption center. I don't know about you, but I don't know how I'd feel knowing that my original parents didn't want me. While I'd be grateful that I was and would consider my adoption parents as my true family, there's always that sense that, no matter how much you want it to be so, you're not truly related. Add to that that there are many households with same sex couples willing to provide a home for kids and the state doesn't want them to.
3. What if the baby has a serious condition or disease? Down syndrome child? I'd advocate for the pregnancy to be terminated. I wouldn't be able to raise a kid with a condition nor would I want them to feel left out because they have a condition.

Anyway...not abortion!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
Are you (you and anyone on this board) ok with killing, let's say, 1 innocent person while executing 99 guilty people?

I'm not, but no doubt there will be supporters who will argue that 1 innocent person is a small price to pay to get rid of 99 guilty people.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
I find it interesting that the pro-life folks want to defeat the override. Nothing says pro-life like being able to put people to death.

Because those people are hypocrites and have an agenda and will pick and choose scripture to serve their agenda.


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
The Pro-Life movement is really just an anti-abortion movement, just like the Pro-Choice movement is a pro-abortion movement.

The pro-choice movement means we give the women the right to choose what to do with her own body. I don't know any rational person who actually thinks an abortion is a good thing and unless you are a woman who has contemplated it then you really have no right to judge. I don't think that the women who have had them made that decision easily and the ones that it was easy probably are sociopaths.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
And in how many of the cases currently sitting in death row in Nebraska is there any doubt about the author of the crimes, versus punks not even trying to pretend they are innocent but just trying to nuance their way out of a lethal injection like that Chechen dweeb in Boston?

Probably more than you think.
Tsarnev wanted the needle, what would have really made him suffer would have had him been put into solitary for therest of his life.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 18):
For me it comes down to a simple concept - does the death penalty actually deter someone from committing murder?

Wouldn't deter me, if I committed murder one and got caught I would actually want it over life in prison. You could say that the fact that I wouldn't receive it in Canada is more of a deterrent to me at least.


Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 18):
I don't mean to go too off topic, but the 2nd worse punishment you could hand out to someone after the death penalty is the 40 year prison sentence (or really any sentence greater than 30 years but short of life).

I think 40 years in a supermax is much worse than the death penalty if you are actually guilty.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
Yes, I think it can, if the execution is carried out in a timely manner. What's the average time on death row? 15 years? 20? That's not a death sentence. Execute within a couple of months of sentencing and, I suspect, there will be a decrease in violent crime.

There have been dozens of people on death row for that amount of time whom have since been exonerated of their crimes due to improving technology in forensics. You kill them in a couple of months and if comes out that the DA messed up then the state is on the hook for millions to the families of a now innocent person.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
I have other moral objections but I hardly ever bring them up because I believe the killing-innocent-people argument is so common sense and rock solid that I don't even need to bring in any other arguments... yet, so many people are for the death penalty.

The people whom are for it tend to be more emotionally charged when it comes to crime and other events and conservatives (whom support it more than liberals) tend to apply more emotion to their opinions and they tend to support capital punishment. Liberals tend to be less emotional about their arguments and step back and look at it rationally as it costs more to execute due to appeals and it's not a deterrent.

Conservatives might flame me for that but if you were worked up reading my previous paragraph then you proved my point.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35):
I'm not, but no doubt there will be supporters who will argue that 1 innocent person is a small price to pay to get rid of 99 guilty people.

Maybe they'd think that to themselves, but I've never have anyone admit that. The closest I got (and it was on this very board years ago) was that if they were on death row, even if they were not guilty of the crime that got them the death penalty, they were no good people anyway for hanging out with that sort of crowd.

Yeah, WTF kinda reasoning is that??

I think that forcing someone to admit an uncomfortable thought, such as "yes, we WILL kill some innocent people," goes a far way towards arguing a case, even if they don't admit it publicly. If they have a justification they can just whip out that isn't that great and no one calls them out on it, they'll continue to use it, but once they get backed into the corner and realize it's no good, they usually change eventually, whether it's their position or which argument they use
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:42 am

The AG of NE apparently is saying the way the law that ended the death penalty in the state may have a flaw, mainly with those on death row having their death penalty commuted to life in prison. He believes the commutation by statute is in violation of the State's Constitution that only allows a State board to change a prisoner's sentence and related issues. Likely he believes those on death row were convicted and sentenced by a jury to get the death penalty and that cannot be changed by a change in state law.
Here is a article on this issue: http://www.aol.com/article/2015/05/2...6%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D-1944865190
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 2:57 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
How do we define that, legally?

You know, I just reviewed Kentucky's capital punishment statutes and found all kinds of information concerning aggravating circumstances and mitigating circumstances. You know what I learned? That, under Kentucky law, the soon-to-be martyr of Boston could argue that his religion was a mitigating circumstance and take capital punishment off the table. Yes, you can write that kind of stuff into the law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
Let's say, for example, that Tsarnaev's lawyers suggested that he did the bombing but that he was coerced into it by someone.

I just fired someone for violating the FAR's. He claimed that he was coerced into doing that. We asked that he provide the documentation that showed he reported the coercion to the union, the FAA or any other competent authority.

A little simplistic, but the point is that he violated the FAR, just like the idiot in Boston was caught on camera planting the bombs and wrote his own little blood-stained manifesto. There is no evidence of coercion.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 35):
You're assuming that ALL women will want to have an abortion.

No, I'm not. What I'm pointing out is that legalized abortion grants women (about one-half of the population) the ability to kill, or cause to kill, an unborn child. Whether they want to or not is irrelevant.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
Are you (you and anyone on this board) ok with killing, let's say, 1 innocent person while executing 99 guilty people?

I'm with Blackstone; that 10 guilty should go free before we convict 1 innocent. In fact, I'll say 99 or 999 guilty should go free before we convict one innocent person. That's why I would insist on a legislative standard beyond the reasonable doubt for guilt. A person can be guilty as hell for a murder, but if the murder does not fit the legislative framework, it doesn't qualify for capital punishment. We do it now. We just need to expand the exceptions.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 3:20 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
That's why I would insist on a legislative standard beyond the reasonable doubt for guilt. A person can be guilty as hell for a murder, but if the murder does not fit the legislative framework, it doesn't qualify for capital punishment.

That's the thing though, there is nothing above "beyond a reasonable doubt," well there is, "beyond all doubt." That is an unrealistic, impossible standard to meet. It's saying that we know the person did it and there is no way space aliens or time travelers, for example, didn't interfere. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the absolute highest, most sure anyone can be, realistically

Again, anything "above" beyond a reasonable doubt is unneeded and redundant since every criminal conviction requires you to be 99.9999% sure (or however high beyond a reasonable doubt is.) Why add these additional exceptions? If it's beyond a reasonable doubt, it's beyond a reasonable doubt. Doesn't matter if half the world saw it, you have DNA evidence that is a sure match but no witnesses, whether it's a high profile case, whether it's a low profile case, etc.

If you get convicted for burglary the legal standard says the jury should be just as confident you did that as they are the Boston bombers bombed the marathon.

To sum it all up, there are no "legal standards beyond the reasonable doubt." That is just saying that our system has holes in it so we should fill up some of the holes... and on top of that, we're going to convict and kill people based off this undoubtedly imperfect system? No matter how we refine it, I don't think we can kill 100% of the people we should and 0% of the ones we shouldn't. If that means throwing away the entire idea of capital punishment to save 1 person over the span of decades then so be it. I don't see how you can have it any other way

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
We do it now. We just need to expand the exceptions.

Why? What is the point at the end of the day? To kill less innocent people? All this to protect the death penalty, what for? I can weigh costs and benefits, for example, raising the speed limit to something above 20mph on interstates even though raising it will result in more deaths. Why? Accidents happen and we'd rather be in a bit more danger so we're not going 20mph everywhere. It's the cost of living.

I just don't see the desire to kill people vs life in prison when it means that we could potentially kill innocent people. Executing people is just not worth it, at all
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
That's the thing though, there is nothing above "beyond a reasonable doubt,"

Correct, that's why we convict using that standard. But, we are not talking about conviction anymore, we're talking about sentencing.

Sentencing is a completely different animal and can be subject to legislative constraints.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
Executing people is just not worth it, at all

Opinion.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
You know, I just reviewed Kentucky's capital punishment statutes and found all kinds of information concerning aggravating circumstances and mitigating circumstances. You know what I learned? That, under Kentucky law, the soon-to-be martyr of Boston could argue that his religion was a mitigating circumstance and take capital punishment off the table. Yes, you can write that kind of stuff into the law.

But that's not the issue. The issue is how you define "not relying on witness testimony" in a death penalty case. If you're going to tell prosecutors that if they call a witness they lose the death penalty, you're pretty much doing away with the death penalty altogether - no prosecutor worth their salt is going to accept handcuffs on how they can prosecute a case just so that they might be able to get a stricter sentence. So why leave the loophole? Loopholes only exist to get abused, and that's precisely the sort of thing that you're trying to prevent. Just decide to abolish the death penalty and be done with it.

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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
The issue is how you define "not relying on witness testimony"

Who says you can't call witnesses? What I'm saying is that the witness statements should corroborate physical and/or forensics evidence. The witness testimony should be the "icing on the cake", not the batter.

If the prosecutor can't make the death penalty case without witness testimony, then it shouldn't be a death penalty case.

There is no loophole.
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 8:25 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):

I thought we were talking life vs. execution?

Life imprisonment w/o chance of parole is torture and just as repulsive as capital punishment.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
A person who is put in prison for life is still a threat to the guards, other prisoners and any incidental (medical, legal, pastoral, etc) folks he may come in contact with.

so, lets get rid of prisons and just kill every criminal, each and every prison inmate qualifies as a risk to guards, other prisoners and such.
Please proof statistically that a convicted murderer posses a bigger thread to the rest of the prison population than any other inmate. And better make sure that the rate isn´t higher for convicted murderers on death row than for convicted murderers serving a long prison sentence, because is you genuinely care about everyone else in prison, that would be a strong point against capital punishment...

But you won´t, you just repeat an unsupported opinion over and over again and never ever come up with any evidence to support your point of view. One can only conclude that you know very well that there are no objective facts supporting your claims, hence you ignore any attempt for a more scientific discussion.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
I'm arguing that, given the right circumstances, it can be effective.

No, you are not arguing, you are stating. Making an argument requires facts to back it up. Please show proof that capital punishment can be effective. Why not start by clearing up how states w/o capital punishment see a steeper reduction in murder rates compared to states with it?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):

I disagree. You want to allow one-half of the population the ability to terminate a life. Or, to put it more bluntly...kill an unborn child.

I think a pregnant man would have exactly the right to terminate his pregnancy as any women. How about every man has the right to refuse being a father, how can we force women to be mothers? Why does only half of the population have the right to chose not to be a parent, while the other half should be forced to go through at least 9 month of discomfort, nausea, vomiting, pain and a still real risks for her health and physical integrity? 18.5 deaths per 100,000 live births in the USA in 2013. Congratulations, you just killed about 1000 fellow American citizens....

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Do you have any doubt that the soon-to-be martyr of Boston killed 3 people and maimed or injured 250+ more? Or that the asshole in Aurora killed 12 and injured 70?

How do you make sure beyond any reasonable doubts that someone doing stuff like that is mentally sane? As said before, if you think god wants you to go and kill unbelievers, that is a pretty good pointer that someone is positively insane.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
That's the thing though, there is nothing above "beyond a reasonable doubt," well there is, "beyond all doubt." That is an unrealistic, impossible standard to meet. It's saying that we know the person did it and there is no way space aliens or time travelers, for example, didn't interfere. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the absolute highest, most sure anyone can be, realistically

Looking at 170 executed innocent people (iirc someone posted in another thread on topic) that bears an obvious question. How is it possible to reach a verdict w/o reasonable doubt vs. someone that is in fact innocent? That should be mathematically impossible and there should be three possibilities:

1) Someone manipulated Jury/Evidence/Witnesses to have someone else convicted for his crimes.
2) The Jury had reasonable doubts, but chose to ignore them for some "higher purpose" like "Oh, he has been such a terrible criminal before, he deserves to die even if he didn´t commit this murder" or a equivalent train of thought.
3) The prosecution/law enforcement misrepresented the evidence to achieve the conviction despite not having an ironclad case.

All of the above should be either premeditated murder or conspiracy to commit murder. Where are the murder investigations into Jury, Prosecution and law enforcement?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
What I'm saying is that the witness statements should corroborate physical and/or forensics evidence.

Thats cute, didn´t we just learn that 32 death sentences where handed out based on forensic evidence corroborated by eye witness testimony with forensic evidence being overstated by the forensic experts? How long did it take for that one to break and how many of those convicted would be dead if executions where done in a timely fashion?
There is not much in the way of forensic evidence that isn´t subject to interpretation and therefore is effectively not that much better than any other eye witness reports? One reports what they think they heard and saw, one reports what he concludes from the physical evidence he could look at.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Mir
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 8:41 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
If the prosecutor can't make the death penalty case without witness testimony, then it shouldn't be a death penalty case.

If the prosecutor calls witnesses, it's because they provide something of value to their case. So if you're going to say that you can't apply the death penalty in cases where you're relying on witness testimony, then the mere presence of a witness means the rule comes into effect - the argument could be made that without that witness the prosecution's case would be weaker (perhaps a certain piece of physical evidence would be uncorroborated) and thus might not have resulted in a conviction. In other words, by your rule, if you call witnesses, you're not having a death penalty case.

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fr8mech
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 8:49 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
How do you make sure beyond any reasonable doubts that someone doing stuff like that is mentally sane? As said before, if you think god wants you to go and kill unbelievers, that is a pretty good pointer that someone is positively insane.

As I said in the other thread, the only thing the state need prove, refuting the insanity defense, is that the defendant knew right from wrong. Not that he agrees with our notion of right from wrong.

Here's a little tid-bit; the killer from Sandy Hook? Based on what I saw, he would not get the death penalty, because I really don't think he would have known right from wrong. Of course, he did everyone a favor and put himself out of our misery, so we never had a chance to question/test him.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
Life imprisonment w/o chance of parole is torture and just as repulsive as capital punishment.

So, your answer is...? Release a mass murderer back into society? Or a violent criminal who has killed?
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B8887
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 9:49 am

First time posting in the non-aviation thread. Always a first...

Just to add that I think I do not support the death penalty and it has no place in a modern society. Although it will not happen overnight, I think more US states will follow through over the years.

Regards.

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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 46):

As I said in the other thread, the only thing the state need prove, refuting the insanity defense, is that the defendant knew right from wrong. Not that he agrees with our notion of right from wrong.

And how do you proof that beyond reasonable doubt?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 46):
So, your answer is...? Release a mass murderer back into society? Or a violent criminal who has killed?

There is no justification to ever torture a person, let alone lifelong, so of course everyone has to have a realistic chance of regaining his freedom.

But your point is bogus anyways, since you still fail to proof that a convicted murderer is more likely to commit another murder than any other criminal.

Germany had life imprisonment w/o chance of parole until it was abolished 1977, there was no adverse effect on murder rates....

Murder rate Germany in 1976 (last year with life imprisonment w/o parole): 1.3 per 100.000 inhabitants
Murder rate in Germany 2012: 0.7
=46% reduction in Murders per 100.000

In the same timespan the murder rate increased in England & Wales (have life imprisonment w/o parole, and love it), France (has life imprisonment w/o parole, and barely uses it) sees increase, but less and Spain and Portugal, that got rid of life imprisonment in whole a long time ago, have seen reductions pretty much like Germany.
Murder rates seem to fall, with some consistency, steeper w/o capital punishment and life imprisonment w/o chance of parole. Even in the US, a fact you repeatedly refuse to even address.

Again, there is no indication that either capital punishment, nor life imprisonment w/o chance of parole has any deterrence effect on would be murderers. But there is a slight statistical indication that having capital punishment actually INCREASE the murder rate.

So, even if you could make mathematically sure to only execute the guilty and sane, society as a whole would still lose.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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RE: Death Penalty On The Line In NE

Fri May 29, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 38):
The AG of NE apparently is saying the way the law that ended the death penalty in the state may have a flaw, mainly with those on death row having their death penalty commuted to life in prison.

NE did go through in an uncommon way in that it abolished it retroactively. The other states that had abolished the death penalty clearly stated it would not be applied retroactively. So the AG of NE may get his wish to execute the 10 remaining death row inmates (which still baffles me how someone would want to kill someone and go against the law that saves those 10 inmates).

There's also talk about having a referendum on it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
In other words, by your rule, if you call witnesses, you're not having a death penalty case.

Well, the downside of calling a witness is that testimony can be altered such that it's no longer true. Unless you have a truth serum which allows you to extract all relevant details without modifications, witness testimony should not be considered for a death penalty case.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 46):
Release a mass murderer back into society? Or a violent criminal who has killed?

I still advocate for the desert compound. Have a secured center building where, in the case of urgent evacuation of an inmate (health, not guilty, etc.) you can allow access to them. The only way out: helicopter...or gondola to the outer walls.
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