jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:25 pm

It's just sad to have that attitude towards everything you don't understand.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 140):
I wonder if Kiwirob understands the question: when did you choose to become heterosexual? When did you choose that lifestyle?

Why waste our time? She has already heard it and I'm sure she understands it, she just doesn't care

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 141):
I am male, just like Bruce is

There you go, that's a perfect example of you either simply misunderstanding it or are choosing to be willfully ignorant. You both were born and have a penis and a Y chromosome but obviously you two have something different going on in your brains, I mean, duhhhh. That is, unless you're saying you're like her in that you identify as a girl? No? Well congrats, there is your difference

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 147):
it's just something for me to kick around.

That's sad, did you have some sort of issue growing up? Who just picks on people? How can you think you're a good person?

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 150):
It's just sad to have that attitude towards everything you don't understand.

Exactly, it's sad. Hopefully she keeps the damage to herself and doesn't needlessly belittle transgenered, gay, or any other non-kiwirobbish person in need. Very destructive, sad, and sociopathic state of mind
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:18 am

Another question, doe the chromosone a person was born with, do change by time or he/she is born with the opposite chromosone and it takes time for the person to notice it? Do he/she feels the change before or after puberty?
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:03 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 152):
doe the chromosone a person was born with, do change by time or he/she is born with the opposite chromosone and it takes time for the person to notice it? Do he/she feels the change before or after puberty?

I have read many accounts that trans just don't "feel right" as their birth gender. I would think it would hit harder at and after puberty.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 151):
Why waste our time? She has already heard it and I'm sure she understands it, she just doesn't care

I would like to hear it from him. I want him (and anyone else who thinks sexuality is a choice) to really think about that question. Pinpoint a year or time of their lives when they made that choice.
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 152):

Another question, doe the chromosone a person was born with, do change by time or he/she is born with the opposite chromosone and it takes time for the person to notice it? Do he/she feels the change before or after puberty?

The karyotype of course does not change, but here's an interesting case to think about:



This individual has karyotype 46XY. This individual was born with testes. They were surgically removed.

The reason is that Sarah Gronert has a mutation in her androgen receptor. She has complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, so although she had testes that produced huge amounts of testosterone (given no feedback signal to stop them, her testosterone levels would have been higher than any adult man's), but her testosterone receptors were nonfunctional, so the signals that testosterone is supposed to send never got relayed to cell nuclei and the male phenotype never developed.

In these cases, the testes must be removed because they are at risk for development of testicular cancer and they, of course, serve no functional purpose. The vagina ends in a blind pouch and there is no cervix or uterus. Often, we do not identify this condition until puberty when the girl fails to start menstruation. Sometimes it is discovered in infancy when there is a mass in the labia majora that is ultimately identified as a testis.

So are we right to call her a woman?
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Braybuddy
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:53 am

Just discovered this thread and I'll go and get some popcorn.   The Vladimir Putin school of sexuality is alive and well and living on these forums . . .  Wow!
 
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:24 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 151):
That's sad, did you have some sort of issue growing up? Who just picks on people? How can you think you're a good person?

Oh I know I'm a good person, helping old people across the road, standing up for preggy women on public transport and all that. Had Kinsey and his friend Dr Benjamin not experimented on a gay man back in the 50's physically changing genders would probably never have happened. The genie was let out of the bottle and now people are mutilating themselves in an attempt to become something they only think they are. The PC lefty brigate and the LGB community jumped on the bandwagon and here we are today.

Maybe you should read up on some of the history behind this daft surgery. Why do some of the best hospitals in the world no longer perform it, why in the US is this surgery mostly performed by Private Clinics, where is the oversight?

People far more intelligent than our baby Doc think this is BS so who are we to argue with them

Quote:
Results from Johns Hopkins: Surgery Gives No Relief

Dr. Money became the co-founder of one of the first university-based gender clinics in the United States at Johns Hopkins University, where gender reassignment surgery was performed. After the clinic had been in operation for several years, Dr. Paul McHugh, the director of psychiatry and behavioral science at Hopkins, wanted more than Money’s assurances of success immediately following surgery. McHugh wanted more evidence. Long-term, were patients any better off after surgery?

McHugh assigned the task of evaluating outcomes to Dr. Jon Meyer, the chairman of the Hopkins gender clinic. Meyer selected fifty subjects from those treated at the Hopkins clinic, both those who had undergone gender reassignment surgery and those who had not had surgery. The results of this study completely refuted Money’s claims about the positive outcomes of sex-change surgery. The objective report showed no medical necessity for surgery.

On August 10, 1979, Dr. Meyer announced his results: “To say this type of surgery cures psychiatric disturbance is incorrect. We now have objective evidence that there is no real difference in the transsexual’s adjustments to life in terms of job, educational attainment, marital adjustment and social stability.” He later told The New York Times: “My personal feeling is that the surgery is not a proper treatment for a psychiatric disorder, and it’s clear to me these patients have severe psychological problems that don’t go away following surgery.”

Less than six months later, the Johns Hopkins gender clinic closed. Other university-affiliated gender clinics across the country followed suit, completely ceasing to perform gender reassignment surgery. No success was reported anywhere.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/...istory-of-sex-change-surgery/16113

What about the ethical issues behind it?

Quote:
Abstract

Is it ethical to perform a surgery whose purpose is to make a male look like a female or a female to appear male? Is it medically appropriate?

Sexual Reassignment Surgery (SRS) violates basic medical and ethical principles and is therefore not ethically or medically appropriate.

(1) SRS mutilates a healthy, non-diseased body. To perform surgery on healthy body involves unnecessary risks; therefore, SRS violates the principle "primum non nocere (first, do no harm)."

(2) Candidates for SRS may believe that they are trapped in the bodies of the wrong sex and therefore desire, or more accurately demand SRS; however, this belief is generated by a disordered perception of self. Such a fixed, irrational belief is appropriately described as a delusion. SRS, therefore, is a "category mistake"-it offers a surgical solution for psychological problems such as a failure to accept the goodness of one's masculinity or femininity, lack of secure attachment relationships in childhood with same sex peers or a parent, self-rejection, untreated gender identity disorder, addiction to masturbation and fantasy, poor body image, excessive anger, severe psychopathology in a parent, etc.

(3) SRS does not accomplish what it claims to accomplish. It does not change a person's sex; therefore, it provides no true benefit.

(4) SRS is a "permanent," effectively unchangeable, and often unsatisfying surgical attempt to change what may be only a temporary (i.e., psychothepeutically changeable) psychological/psychiatric condition.

If anything trans people are not a lot different from people with body integrity identity disorder or xenomelia.

Quote:


BIID is typically accompanied by the desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs to achieve that end. BIID can be associated with apotemnophilia, sexual arousal based on the image of one's self as an amputee.

Removing penis or breasts is no different, it's mental condition. Most people would think someone removing a limb is crazy, so is removing a healthy functioning penis or breasts. The difference is the LGB community has gotten in behind the transpeople movement and now we all have to get in line.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:28 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 156):
People far more intelligent than our baby Doc think this is BS so who are we to argue with them

You're going to pull up an almost 40-year-old opinion as "evidence?"

Honey, you're gonna have to do better than that.
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:06 pm

Do John Hopkins perform gender surgery today, if they don't then it's still valid little doc.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 154):

I think i got it, thanks Doc.
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63):
4) This isn't just a publicity stunt. You don't do that to yourself just to get a reality TV show. Bruce had plenty of fame factor before he transitioned to Caitlyn. He didn't need to transition to merit a reality show.

Look, what gets up people's nose is his lack of perspective and, frankly, sanity. A man who had his features surgically altered to (sort of) resemble a woman proclaims himself “the new normal.” No, it’s not normal. It is something than can be tolerated or accepted, but it is not normal. But we are ordered not only to pretend it is normal, but to celebrate his “courage.” And anyone who refuses to buy into the delusion that a person with a penis is a woman is equated to a Klansman or a Nazi.

There used to be a joke about "the inmates have taken over the asylum". Well, it's happening. Jenner is mentally ill. Body dysmorphic disorder, for one. You have society (especially at universities) bending over backward to address the "problem of microagressions", a construct that gives hypersensitive, narcissistic people an unlimited license to find offense in the ordinary behavior and language of normal, well-adjusted people. Universities and social groups respond by restricting the speech and behavior of well-adjusted people so that hypersensitive types don’t feel “unsafe.”

Basically we are telling our children (and their parents) that it is no longer required to be a well-adjusted person, fit into society and try to work and play well with your fellow humans. Any desires or anxiety you may have - it's not your responsibility - it society being unfair to you.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 156):
something they only think they are.

You think someone's entire mental state and identity is some insignificant little part of someone? I mean I guess you do since you believe completely incorrect things like gay people choose to be gay. It's like you've never even talked to a gay person but I know you have, so you just flat out refuse to believe them for some reason.

It's also in line with your thoughts on suicide, if I remember correctly. You refused to believe that someone's mind would function so differently that they think it's better if they were not there any more, you just believed they were rationally thinking and simply chose to be greedy

I figured everyone learned this at like 3 years old but everyone thinks differently. What goes on in your mind is different than everyone else's mind. Just because you don't like penis doesn't mean it's impossible that another guy would and they're just choosing to be gay and hated. Also, people can once again think differently than you and have a different gender identity.

Speaking of mental conditions (and no, this is not an ad hominem attack) it sounds like you have some sort of mental condition, maybe minor, that makes you incapable of empathy and believing others can be inherently different from you. I'm being serious. Either that or you're trolling. Your refusal to accept some of these basic premises goes beyond simply disagreeing. How else can you explain someone covering their ears saying "la la la no there's no way people turn out gay against their will, they obviously choose it la la la." Hopefully you have a sound mind and are just trolling, and that you'll grow out of it

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 156):
Maybe you should read up on some of the history behind this daft surgery. Why do some of the best hospitals in the world no longer perform it, why in the US is this surgery mostly performed by Private Clinics, where is the oversight?

Yes, maybe we should look at what the peer review literature says and what the respected scientific organizations say. What do they say? Better than throwing random opinions by random doctors at each other
 
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
Basically we are telling our children (and their parents) that it is no longer required to be a well-adjusted person, fit into society and try to work and play well with your fellow humans. Any desires or anxiety you may have - it's not your responsibility - it society being unfair to you.

Before I make a LONG reply, I want for you to define what you mean by "well-adjusted person".
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 162):
Before I make a LONG reply, I want for you to define what you mean by "well-adjusted person".

The Cambridge dictionary says "A well adjusted person is reasonable and has good judgment and their behaviour is not difficult or strange"

On my office wall I've had a framed version of Max Ehrmann's "Desiderata", which I got as a graduation present from my grandfather 30 years ago. I think a well-adjusted person is someone who lives more or less along those lines:

Quote:

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
Look, what gets up people's nose is his lack of perspective and, frankly, sanity. A man who had his features surgically altered to (sort of) resemble a woman proclaims himself “the new normal.”

Did she say that?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 158):

Do John Hopkins perform gender surgery today, if they don't then it's still valid little doc.

Believe it or not neither Paul McHugh nor Johns Hopkins is the end-all-and-be-all authority on medicine. In fact, Paul McHugh was a bad doctor who got to high rank; it happens. He claims that homosexuality is a choice (and I know for a fact it isn't) and claimed that the Catholic sex abuse scandal was about "homosexual predation on America's children."

Meanwhile, back in the world, the foremost institutions of medicine (and I've trained at two of them):

UCSF: http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/
University of Michigan: http://www.uofmhealth.org/medical-services/transgender-services
Columbia University Medical Center: http://newsroom.cumc.columbia.edu/bl...xploring-transgender-health-terms/
Harvard Medical School: http://physiciandirectory.brighamandwomens.org/Details/1119

Paul McHugh is out of practice now and with good reason. Anyone who loathes his patients as much as he does should never be permitted to practice medicine.
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
But we are ordered not only to pretend it is normal, but to celebrate his “courage.”

There are people who go through gender reassignment all the time and no one ever talks about this they way this country has with Caitlyn. That is the part that I find sad. If our country makes this much fuss over a semi-celebrity, we need to make this much fuss over all trans people. Or, else, just make Caitlyn like all other trans people and move on.

As far as the rest of your post, it is disgusting. So many other threads you complain about how the government is too big and taking away rights and the government just needs to let people be. Except it has been proven people can not be trusted to treat everyone equally. Look at the Natives and the Japanese during WWII or Blacks or gays and Hispanics. And, now, people are upset because we need to add trans to the long list of people who are equal. If history had proven that we can not discriminate on our own, there would be no need for legislation and "narcissism" like including ALL Americans. If you have a problem including ALL Americans under a blanket of "equal rights for all" that is on you, not on us who are demanding equality.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 158):
Do John Hopkins perform gender surgery today, if they don't then it's still valid little doc.

Maybe look into the past 10 years to see if/why they are not doing it? Because we have better equipment and better controls and better ways of studying, many past studies have been invalidated. Tobacco studies, for example. It was thought that tobacco was wonderful. Doctors even endorsed it. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with tobacco? I mean, there was that study done decades ago that proved it, right?
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
But we are ordered not only to pretend it is normal, but to celebrate his “courage.” And anyone who refuses to buy into the delusion that a person with a penis is a woman is equated to a Klansman or a Nazi.

You are "ordered?" By whom? What happens if you disobey? Are you writing this post from your prison cell? From your bunk in the FEMA Liberal Muslim Commie Atheist concentration camp?

Please tell me how you are so victimized.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 154):
Sarah Gronert

Intersex is something entirely different and should not be confused with someone like Bruce, stop trying to muddy the waters.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 161):

You think someone's entire mental state and identity is some insignificant little part of someone?

So you would think that someone removing there leg was normal because they did not believe having two legs was part of their identity, I'm pretty sure you would think that person had a mental disorder, they do it's called it's no different to someone removing there penis or breasts but we are supposed to see this as normal but someone removing there leg is not.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 165):

Maybe look into the past 10 years to see if/why they are not doing it?

We know why they are not doing, we know why all the major university and teaching hospitals in the US are not doing it, these are some of the best and most respected hospitals in the world, you can read the reasons in the link I posted.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 165):
Because we have better equipment and better controls and better ways of studying, many past studies have been invalidated.

Gender reassignment fixes nothing, the person removing there penis is still a man, just a man without a penis, you cannot change biology.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 164):
Did she say that?

he did indeed say exactly that.

Quote:
Bruce Jenner declares himself the “new normal” in a commercial for his upcoming E! television documentary, the Associated Press reports.

“Put it this way, I’m the new normal,” Jenner said in the promotional trailer.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 167):
So you would think that someone removing there leg was normal because they did not believe having two legs was part of their identity, I'm pretty sure you would think that person had a mental disorder, they do it's called it's no different to someone removing there penis or breasts but we are supposed to see this as normal but someone removing there leg is not.

How are you equating a woman being born in a man's body with someone, uh, legless being born in a "legged body?" Just like with the cat guy thing, no, we aren't cats and no parts of us are cats, it's not possible. No where in our lineage do we have cat people. But having a human female mind in a human male body? That is possible. Although it seems foreign to me, I can accept that not everyone in the world is like me and that it's possible and that it happens. I don't see why you care so much anyway.

I can see how someone thinks these cases are similar but they are apples to oranges. Matching one's internal gender and switching your junk is much different than chopping your legs off, even you have to admit that

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
No, it’s not normal. It is something than can be tolerated or accepted, but it is not normal. But we are ordered not only to pretend it is normal, but to celebrate his “courage.”

I would just say look past all the craziness surrounding Jenner... I really don't care about celebrities and don't care whether this is a fame grab or not. I can see how annoying it is to hear about it all the time.

Look at the issue for everyday transgender people, like the transgender teen that committed suicide not too long ago. They don't want to be celebrated and on air 24/7, they just don't want there to be hatred towards them. While you aren't hating on them, many people do, and that is where the pressure is being directed towards, not towards people like you (that are indifferent to them) so that you praise them

I'm glad you can accept and tolerate them, that's all anyone is asking. Whether anyone is "ordering you" to celebrate or not is debatable but again, I say that we shouldn't get lost in it and to instead treat them like any other group of people--without praise but without hate
 
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 168):
How are you equating a woman being born in a man's body with someone, uh, legless being born in a "legged body?"

You're being purposely obtuse, it's exactly the same issue.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 168):
Matching one's internal gender and switching your junk is much different than chopping your legs off, even you have to admit that

It is not, they are both mental issues where a person thinks they need to be changed from the way they were born. They are both removing healthy body parts due to a mental issue.
 
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johnboy
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 163):

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 162):
Before I make a LONG reply, I want for you to define what you mean by "well-adjusted person".

The Cambridge dictionary says "A well adjusted person is reasonable and has good judgment and their behaviour is not difficult or strange"

Oh my sides!

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 158):
Do John Hopkins perform gender surgery today, if they don't then it's still valid little doc.

You do seem to have a hard-on for Johns Hopkins!

Meanwhile back to reality....

“It is important to remember that the opinions of Dr McHugh fly in the face of currently accepted medical practice and the positions of many major medical associations.........Despite his authoritative sounding title at a respected medical institution, Dr McHugh’s opinions do not represent the views of the mainstream medical establishment, rather they are the erroneous, bigoted beliefs of a scientist who appears far too invested in his own antiquated, disproven theories and his anti-LGBT political position than the current state of medical affairs”. http://www.transadvocate.com/worlds-...x_n_13924.htm#sthash.Bz3Iwxme.dpuf

(Hmmm, kinda sounds like Ben Carson, another Johns Hopkins alum....what ARE they putting in the water there??)
As far as transgender care (including gender confirmation surgery, GCS)......


UCSF Transgender Care (last time I checked, which was, oh about yesterday, UCSF is in the top 10 hospitals in the US).


Ban lifted on Medicare coverage for sex change surgery
Transgender Resources at Stanford University Ugh, why are all these awful universities promoting such unproven surgeries? Why god, why?? 


I know of two physician groups personally, one in Marin County that does all their GCS at Davies Medical Center in the Castro (in SF). And of course UCSF. Now that GCS is reimbursable, I think we'll see more public universities go down that pathway, and not leave it to private practice.
 
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mariner
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 169):
It is not, they are both mental issues where a person thinks they need to be changed from the way they were born. They are both removing healthy body parts due to a mental issue.

It isn't so very long ago - well within my lifetime - that the APA listed homosexuality as a mental illness.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...n-homosexuality-was-mental-illness

"When homosexuality was mental illness"

That the APA is still in the dark ages on trans-gender issues, as the article discusses, isn't exactly surprising.

"At present the committee responsible for deciding whether transsexuality is retained in the next edition of DSM is headed by a psychologist -- Kenneth Zucker -- who practices NARTH-style reparatist therapy on transkids, and has supported state interventions to take custody of transkids away from parents who were allowing them to live in the chosen gender. The committee is also stuffed with like-minded friends of Zucker. The chances of transsexuality being removed from the next edition of DSM seem very small at the moment."

mariner

[Edited 2015-06-07 12:00:28]
aeternum nauta
 
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 171):
It isn't so very long ago - well within my lifetime - that the APA listed homosexuality as a mental illness.

Indeed. We have this awesome thing called "scientific progress". The way it works is that we study a subject, and our understanding gets better. Apparently in this case we peaked in 1979 though....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
Basically we are telling our children (and their parents) that it is no longer required to be a well-adjusted person, fit into society and try to work and play well with your fellow humans. Any desires or anxiety you may have - it's not your responsibility - it society being unfair to you.

Yeah, those are much the same arguments made about gays. And blacks wanting equal rights. And women wanting to work instead of staying at home. Don't rock the boat! Things are fine as they are. I'm alright jack.

It's generally the people who have the courage to stand up and say "this is bullshit" that change the world for the better. Those who stay silent out of cowardice- or just desperately cling to the past out of fear- are just dead weight in terms of human progress.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 169):
You're being purposely obtuse, it's exactly the same issue.

Yep, ya got me. Female humans being born in a human male body is the same as an armless man being born in an armed body, a cat being born in a human body, a 737 being born in a human body. Exactly the same issue!

I hope for both your sons' sake they won't have to go through it and if they do, I hope you'll be more understanding to them. Having transgender sons (or gay sons for that matter) doesn't just "happen to other people," it could very well happen to you
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 167):
Intersex is something entirely different and should not be confused with someone like Bruce, stop trying to muddy the waters.

Sarah Gronert says she's a woman. But apparently you know more, so you call her "intersex." Because you're the authority on what gender everyone else is.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 167):
he did indeed say exactly that.

Well then I disagree with her. A transgender state can be normalized but given the fact that it requires surgical therapy, I'd never classify it as "normal."

Quoting mariner (Reply 171):
"At present the committee responsible for deciding whether transsexuality is retained in the next edition of DSM is headed by a psychologist -- Kenneth Zucker -- who practices NARTH-style reparatist therapy on transkids, and has supported state interventions to take custody of transkids away from parents who were allowing them to live in the chosen gender. The committee is also stuffed with like-minded friends of Zucker. The chances of transsexuality being removed from the next edition of DSM seem very small at the moment."

As I've said, I think it's essential that it remain classified as a disorder. Otherwise, there is no point in gender reassignment surgery. Being in a female body and desperately wanting to be male requires a diagnosis to qualify for surgical therapy. This is one place where the trans community can shoot themselves in the foot.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 167):
Gender reassignment fixes nothing, the person removing there penis is still a man, just a man without a penis, you cannot change biology.

Gender reassignment makes people happy. Why does other people's happiness bother you? Thousands of veterans who lost limbs and sight and hearing didn't want to. No one truly wants that. There are some men who decide they would rather live with a vagina than a penis. That makes them happy. I don't understand it, but as long as they are happy, who am I to tell them they are wrong?

Just like with gay marriage: just because it is possible does not mean one has to. It is possible for me to marry a woman. I don't want to because that is not me. Just like it is possible for me to have my penis removed. I don't because that is not me.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 173):
Female humans being born in a human male body is the same as an armless man being born in an armed body, a cat being born in a human body, a 737 being born in a human body. Exactly the same issue!

Nice to see you've finally got it, although thinking you're a 737 is going a tad far even for this website, you should seek help, before you strap on wings and jump off the roof.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 174):
Sarah Gronert says she's a woman. But apparently you know more, so you call her "intersex." Because you're the authority on what gender everyone else is.

Good for her and I'll agree with her, but Bruce is not the same as her, he wasn't born intersex, he just has a mental issue.
 
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 176):
he just has a mental issue.

Are you sure of that? Are you her therapist? What evidence do you have of this?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting johnboy (Reply 170):

It's profitable. That's why.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:30 am

Quoting johnboy (Reply 170):
Ugh, why are all these awful universities promoting such unproven surgeries? Why god, why??

They make money from it.
 
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 179):
They make money from it.

Why are you against American corporations being profitable and making money hand over fist? Why do you care if a person can pay so much money for a surgery? Why is that an issue with you people? Why do you people hate capitalism?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:01 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 127):
Frankly this thread makes the biggest "stupid lifestyle choice" seem like being kiwirob.

Zinnnnng!




Quoting kiwirob (Reply 147):
His problem, it's just something for me to kick around.

Which says soooo much about you as a person. Wow.  Wow!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 181):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 147):
His problem, it's just something for me to kick around.

Which says soooo much about you as a person. Wow.  

Indeed it does.

Many of my buds like to 'kick around' things like sports scores, opinions on different beers, cars, movies, professional athletes etc.

Kiwi likes to 'kick around' (obsess, focus, zero-in on?) another persons sexual orientation, gender identify, and whether or not they have a penis and what that means for their sex life...

If only Freud was around to comment.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting skyservice_330 (Reply 182):
If only Freud was around to comment.

He would offer some silly theory.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 177):

He was born a man, had three wives, countless girlfriends, many children, and always liked to dress up in women's clothing. Doesn't make him a post menopausal woman at age 60 who was "always" a woman. Makes him a man who likes women's clothing and is cashing in on fame in a new way. And he hasn't had surgery to make things look womanly down there. He's Rupaul.

Personally, I think he's "coming out" now to deflect from recently KILLING A WOMAN. Notice how everyone has forgotten about the fact he very recently slammed his car into two cars on the PCH sending one car into the front of an SUV and causing the death of another person?

No, he's now a national hero again...

Meh.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 183):
he hasn't had surgery to make things look womanly down there. He's Rupaul.

RuPaul is a fabulous dresser. He is an entertainer. But, when someone says "I have always felt like a woman" it is just a matter of time before the dramatic surgeries happen.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 183):
I think he's "coming out" now to deflect from recently KILLING A WOMAN.

The accident is still under investigation. While I think it is a stretch to call Caitlyn/Bruce a national hero, this is still a very important conversation to have.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:06 pm

Neither of them are hot. Simples.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 183):
He's Rupaul.

No.

RuPaul is a drag queen. Drag queens are costume and performance artists with over-feminized personae and costuming. Their characters are female, but they remain male. When we speak of Jackie Beat (an absolutely hilarious drag queen who I've met in person...youtube some of her stuff; you'll die laughing), we speak of "her." I have no idea what Jackie's name is when out of costume and that's part of the wonderful thing about being a drag queen: utter anonymity when out of costume and out of character.

At any LGBT event, the master of ceremonies will be a drag queen. At Stonewall, it was the drag queens who started throwing bricks. They are an important part of our community's culture. I didn't "get" drag until I'd been out for some time and realized that in many ways, it is a gender-bending manifestation of our community. They are there, among other things, to bring attention to the ways in which we challenge traditional gender roles merely by going about our day.

I have a couple of drag queen friends and all of them are quite male when out of costume. However, Jackie Beat has had breasts added. I don't know why. I don't know if she is now a "she" when out of costume. It's not my business.

Drag isn't just for gay men, either. I would argue that Dolly Parton is a drag queen, even though she is a straight woman when she is out of costume. I'm not sure if she would think of herself that way, but she also dresses in overtly flashy, hyper-feminine style for performance reasons and she is intensely private about her life when she is not in costume. Tammy Faye Baker was very similar.

Drag is a complicated topic and I'm no expert on it, but there is a big difference between being a drag queen and transgendered.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 186):

A good post all around.

I would add Barry Humphries to your list as well. He has been playing Dame Edna Everage for over 50 years - a drag queen if there ever was one - yet he has been married to women and has children.
 
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OA412
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 103):
I don't hate

         Thanks ma'am. I needed a good laugh!

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 105):
For all the straight members, would you want him using the same changing room as you wife or daughter?

Are you afraid your wife will be attracted to her?

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 104):
I'm sure there are people who don't want me, as a dangerous dangerous gay man

Exactly!

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 108):
IMO being gay is no different than being a vegitarian it's a stupid lifestyle choice nothing more than that.

Wrong again toots!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 111):
Sorry, girl. I was born this way. The only choice I've made is not to live in hiding.

Preach!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 111):
And the fact that you just called me a "stupid lifestyle choice" pretty much proves my point about you.

And then some!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 114):
I used to be confused myself on it til I realized gender includes a multitude of things. If my penis suddenly turned into a vagina, I doubt I'd magically become very different, I'd still feel like a guy.

Exactly. You'd still be a man, and would still have the same desires you have today. You wouldn't suddenly be attracted to men. Being trans is a whole different animal.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 114):

It's a very rare and complicated issue, but it's not as if it's some arbitrary thing someone decides one day

Hey Doc, I'm tired of this whole man/woman thing, mind performing some gender reassignment surgery on me?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
the penis being a big one

I knew it!

Unlike Doc, I have little sense of self-control. 
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 126):
it's a webforum nothing said here impacts my life at all.

In other words, you're not here to learn? Thought so ma'am.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 128):
And yet you keep coming back, spending your time on this topic...

It does make you wonder...

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 144):
I'm sure there were plenty of people around too cowardly to stand up to the lynch mob, who stood by even though in their hearts they thought it was wrong. You or I might have been one of those, but probably not a very active participant.

There certainly were. It's an unfortunate fact of life that a lot of otherwise very good people don't stand up for what is right because they are too afraid to do so.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 155):
The Vladimir Putin school of sexuality is alive and well and living on these forums . . .

Bahaha!
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15057
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 186):

Yes. Drag Queens are comfortable with their predilections, even if other people in their lives aren't. "Trans" whatever you want to use at this time in history think there is something wrong with them and can't come to terms with being Gay, Bi, cross dresser or whatever other thing they are, and think that somehow cutting things off will finally make them whole (for men). Post surgery suicide rates and mental health studies tell a different story.

Right now, Jenner is a really glammed up man (which is why I mentioned Rupaul, maybe the most glammed up of our generation). From what I've heard his family doesn't buy into the whole dog and pony show he's running right now in the press, and as media whores, they know hype. Family friends don't buy it either. People who were "born a woman" don't spend 60 years without any outward signs that even his family and friends don't see. Accepting or not, they aren't shocked...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mariner
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 186):
I have a couple of drag queen friends and all of them are quite male when out of costume. However, Jackie Beat has had breasts added. I don't know why. I don't know if she is now a "she" when out of costume. It's not my business.

I've known some drag queens who are quite male when they are in costume. I once met a couple of Italian drag queens at the port in Genoa who scared me - LOL - I'd want them on my side in a punch-up.

I've known some drag queens with (male) partners who looked very butch and yet who loved to be the passive one in the sexual relationshi - taking it up the butt from men who were dressed like women. Two such friends in Boston recently got married - "he" had been previously married and has a daughter who now lives happily with "him" and her drag queen "mum" who is the active partner in the marriage bed.

The variations and permutations of human relationships, sexual or amatory, seem almost endless to me.

mariner

[Edited 2015-06-11 12:43:32]
aeternum nauta
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 186):
I would argue that Dolly Parton is a drag queen, even though she is a straight woman when she is out of costume. I'm not sure if she would think of herself that way, but she also dresses in overtly flashy, hyper-feminine style for performance reasons and she is intensely private about her life when she is not in costume. Tammy Faye Baker was very similar.

And of course, who could forget:



.....whom I always thought was a drag queen in the common sense, before finding out that she was a ciswoman. Who knew? lol

I mean, she even had an Equality Sign in her hair, a decade before it was "in."  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 188):
Hey Doc, I'm tired of this whole man/woman thing, mind performing some gender reassignment surgery on me?

Yes, I mind. I'm not a surgeon. Screw that. I had to "be" one for three months in medical school and...no. Not for me.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 189):
Right now, Jenner is a really glammed up man (which is why I mentioned Rupaul, maybe the most glammed up of our generation). From what I've heard his family doesn't buy into the whole dog and pony show he's running right now in the press, and as media whores, they know hype. Family friends don't buy it either. People who were "born a woman" don't spend 60 years without any outward signs that even his family and friends don't see. Accepting or not, they aren't shocked...

Would you do it? Even for millions? I sure as hell wouldn't.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 192):

Would you do it? Even for millions? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Exactly. We're talking therapy sessions that aren't exactly easy to bullshit through. Endocrinologist sessions that put you on hormones that essentially kill all the testosterone in your body, making it impossible to do things like, oh, get an erection. We're talking multiple laser hair removal sessions. We're talking facial femininization surgery. We're talking voice coaching/therapy lessons. We're talking living and presenting 24/7 as your identified gender for a full year, requiring a whole new wardrobe, dropping old habits and adopting new ones. We're talking top and bottom surgery, but ONLY once your therapist and endocrinologist sign off on it. That's a hell of a lot of irreversible steps to put one's self through if one isn't sincere about it.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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seb146
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:07 am

Did anyone read the VF article? The brosband has been ooh-ing and aah-ing and pointing over it just now. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/...jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz
I think the car accident is something independent of the surgery.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:48 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 184):
But, when someone says "I have always felt like a woman" it is just a matter of time before the dramatic surgeries happen.

Which makes no sense when you consider below.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 183):
He was born a man, had three wives, countless girlfriends, many children, and always liked to dress up in women's clothing. Doesn't make him a post menopausal woman at age 60 who was "always" a woman. Makes him a man who likes women's clothing and is cashing in on fame in a new way.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 189):
Right now, Jenner is a really glammed up man (which is why I mentioned Rupaul, maybe the most glammed up of our generation). From what I've heard his family doesn't buy into the whole dog and pony show he's running right now in the press, and as media whores, they know hype. Family friends don't buy it either. People who were "born a woman" don't spend 60 years without any outward signs that even his family and friends don't see. Accepting or not, they aren't shocked...

That's why I think it's all about the money and his continuning to garner media attention, he had fame in the 70's then became a nobody, gained fame again after his step daughters sex tape sent the world into a Kardashian frenzy, he was about to become a nobody again, hence this cry for attention, it's fantastic self promotion for his new tv show.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 192):
Would you do it? Even for millions? I sure as hell wouldn't.

He hasn't had his penis removed and he's still into women, he's going to make millions and will be laughing at everyone whilst he's doing it.

This guy had implants for a 100,000 dallar bet back in 96, Bruce is going to make many millions more than that from this stunt.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 194):
I think the car accident is something independent of the surgery.

If he's found guilty, which he should be, he caused the accident which led to the death, now he's a women he'll have a much easier time of it in a female facility than a mens prison.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 195):

If he's found guilty, which he should be, he caused the accident which led to the death, now he's a women he'll have a much easier time of it in a female facility than a mens prison.

Are you serious? Do you just like to act like you have any idea about issues you don't have the foggiest idea about? That's quite a clever schtick you've got. Haven't seen that before.

There is a snow balls chance in hell that there is jail time for this accident. That is ridiculous.

This transformation was obviously well underway at the time of the accident. Are you really saying he is becoming a woman to have an easier jail time hes not going to get as a woman... like he would have had any trouble in the relatively hospitable facility he would've been given as a guy, that he still wont get?

I feel stupid even dignifying your tripe with a response.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 196):
Are you serious? Do you just like to act like you have any idea about issues you don't have the foggiest idea about? That's quite a clever schtick you've got. Haven't seen that before.

In 99.999999% of cases where a person rear ends another car it's the car behind which is at fault, in this instance someone died, if that's not vehicular manslaughter than I have no idea what is. If found guilty, he might serve time.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 196):
Are you really saying he is becoming a woman to have an easier jail time hes not going to get as a woman... like he would have had any trouble in the relatively hospitable facility he would've been given as a guy, that he still wont get?

No I never said that, but I suggest if he is convicted he'd probably have a much nicer time inside a female lockup than a male one, the nightly butt raping wouldn't be much fun.

But I suspect he'll get let off, as with almost any celebrity incident in LA famous people appear to be treated far more leniently than the average person.

[Edited 2015-06-12 06:00:05]
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5352
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 195):
He hasn't had his penis removed and he's still into women,

You know there are women that are into other women, right?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 195):
now he's a women he'll have a much easier time of it in a female facility than a mens prison.

Ignorance strike 2. Just about everybody I know who's worked in a penal environment insists - women are worse than men.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 197):
if that's not vehicular manslaughter than I have no idea what is.

What is vehicular manslaughter? According to the state of California one must act with negligence or "gross negligence." That, my dear New Zealander, is first up to a district attorney's office to decide if there's any case to be made, then up to a grand jury to indict, and finally up to a petit jury to convict.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 197):
the nightly butt raping wouldn't be much fun.

  Yes, because there's no sexual assault that EVER happens in a women's prison. Seriously, just stop. You're doing yourself no favors here and it's becoming all too easy to crush these softballs you're throwing.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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OA412
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RE: Is Bruce "Caitlyn" Jenner Hotter Than His Ex?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 192):
Yes, I mind. I'm not a surgeon. Screw that. I had to "be" one for three months in medical school and...no. Not for me.

  

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 198):
Yes, because there's no sexual assault that EVER happens in a women's prison. Seriously, just stop. You're doing yourself no favors here and it's becoming all too easy to crush these softballs you're throwing.

Amnesty International released a report years ago regarding the conditions in women's prisons. While I don't know if it is still the case, we were then one of the very few countries in which men served as guards in women's prisons. Unfortunately, that often leads to sexual assault of female prisoner's by the guards who are ostensibly there to protect them from each other.
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