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TheCommodore
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Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:45 pm

I think this sums it up pretty well...

So glad Obama has come out publicly in this interview and said it. Hopefully more of the worlds leaders will come out and say it too, we all know thats what many think privately.

What Ive believed for a VERY long time  http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Oba...us-about-two-state-solution-404855
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CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:41 am

I agree with you, Netanyahu is an idiot. He doesn't give a rats ass about the Palestinians, but then again, none of their Arab brethern do at this stage. The problem is, and this might be the only valid point that Bibi makes, how to stop a new Palestinian state from being controlled by Hamas, or worse, some form of ISIS? The only way a Palestinian state is going to be successful is if everyone pitches in to improve the current state of daily life in the WB and Gaza. Israel, however much you don't like the country, does have legit security concerns, which have to be addressed. It doesn't help that the Palestinian side still talks about kicking the Jews out, taking over all of Israel, and all of that. Both sides need to face facts. Israelis aren't going anywhere and neither are the Palestinians. They need to grow up, stop the hate, and start negotiating...
 
jetwet1
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:43 am

Oh well, the winners keep the spoils.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 1):
He doesn't give a rats ass about the Palestinians, but then again, none of their Arab brethern do at this stage.

Oh he cares. He cares a lot.

He'd like to build gas chambers and use them to solve his "Palestinian Problem." But he knows that he can't look too much like the very reason Israel was created in the first place.

For me, as someone who was raised as a Jew and who was taught in excruciating detail about Hitler and the Nazis, the parallels are just too much.

And before anyone trivializes the comparison by invoking Godwin's Law, let's not forget that little editorial that was "oops!" pulled wondering exactly when genocide was acceptable.
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CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):

Oh he cares. He cares a lot.

He'd like to build gas chambers and use them to solve his "Palestinian Problem." But he knows that he can't look too much like the very reason Israel was created in the first place.

For me, as someone who was raised as a Jew and who was taught in excruciating detail about Hitler and the Nazis, the parallels are just too much.

And before anyone trivializes the comparison by invoking Godwin's Law, let's not forget that little editorial that was "oops!" pulled wondering exactly when genocide was acceptable.

I get what you are saying Doc, but stuff like this: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4934.htm , from the other side, does not help the situation, and only keeps Bibi in place. In fact, Bibi couldn't have asked for a better wider Middle East now. The Gulf States are secretly cooperating with Israel AND fighting a war in Yemen, Assad and Syria are being torn apart, ISIS is going nuts in Iraq, and meanwhile, Israel is an oasis in the conflargaration. Bibi is going to ride this till the cows come home, at this point.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 4):
Bibi is going to ride this till the cows come home, at this point.

Or until just one MK leaves the coalition, which may happen sooner rather than later.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 1):
Israel, however much you don't like the country, does have legit security concerns, which have to be addressed.

The 2007 Arab Peace Proposal takes care of such concerns: all Arab countries will end hostilities with Israel and engage in a security cooperation for the region. If Israel's main concern is Iran, having all Arabs on its side (including two buffer countries) is protection enough. Even Syria agreed to the plan so the idea that "Syria is Iran's ally and therefore a threat" is preposterous. Syria may be Iran's ally but it's still Arab.
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OMP777X
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Oh he cares. He cares a lot.

He'd like to build gas chambers and use them to solve his "Palestinian Problem." But he knows that he can't look too much like the very reason Israel was created in the first place.

I was just thinking the exact same thing.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
For me, as someone who was raised as a Jew and who was taught in excruciating detail about Hitler and the Nazis, the parallels are just too much.

And before anyone trivializes the comparison by invoking Godwin's Law, let's not forget that little editorial that was "oops!" pulled wondering exactly when genocide was acceptable.

Doc, I couldn't have said that any better myself, so I won't.

P.S. The state of Israel wouldn't have to worry about securing so much land if it would simply stop stealing it.

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pu
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:05 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
So glad Obama has come out publicly in this interview and said it.

The refusal to cave into the hard-line pro-Netanyahu clique is like refusing to cave into the hard-line anti-Castro clique - Obama is now happily able to say good-riddance to certain electoral demographics here. In large part it's because he is not running for re-election but an even larger part is that the Democratic Party wins among Hispanics (and women, and under 35s) by putting Israel less in the driver seat of US middle east policy than the other party prefers.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 1):
none of their Arab brethern do at this stage.

In practical terms I agree with you.

In ideological terms AFAIK the Palestinians are still a lightning rod of anti-US and anti-Western sentiment used by various governments to distract from their domestic problems and blame outsiders for internal troubles. (Dick Cheney wrote the book on distractions and blaming foreigners for domestic problems but I digress). If it weren't for the injustice committed onto the Palestinians by America and it's client state Israel -according to a certain narrative- America might seem as irrelevant as Europe to most people living in the Middle East.



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TheCommodore
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 2):
Oh well, the winners keep the spoils

Not when you have been caught out cheating and lying !


Quoting pu (Reply 7):
In large part it's because he is not running for re-election

If only more US Presidents in their final term of office, would voice concerns about Israel's behaviour and actions, on ALL fronts.
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 4):
I get what you are saying Doc, but stuff like this: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4934.htm , from the other side, does not help the situation, and only keeps Bibi in place.

Palestinians are kept living in poverty and basically in the 15th century. Their homes are bulldozed for new settlements at whim. They do not have legal rights and no legal recourse.

So is it surprising that they turn to the one recourse they have, which is violence? In fact, Israel provokes the violence as a justification to continue their own campaign of violence against the Palestinians.

Now, I am not arguing that the Palestinians are angels who commit no wrong, but there is definitely a Palestinian side to this narrative.
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L-188
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:12 am

Well that is par for the course for Obummer.

His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:59 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.

That really is an hysterically outrageous statement to come out with, and undermines your very statement that President Obama and his office has been "marked" with anti-Semitism. Marked by who....?

Who exactly is saying that Obama is anti-Semitic or is office is that ?

Nobody wants to see that every Jew in Israel killed, nobody. And to suggest is completely ridiculous.
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QF29
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.

Right...... http://abcnewsradioonline.com/politi...s-passover-at-the-white-house.html

Why is it that when anyone is a critic of Israel he/she are labeled as anti-semitic?
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NorthstarBoy
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.

And yet Obama blocked the Middle East Nuclear Conference being proposed by the UN which would have forced Israel out into the open on whether they have nuclear weapons. At the same time we're wrestling Iran to the ground diplomatically in regards to their nuclear program. Why are we doing that? In my estimation we dont want any Muslim state in the region to have anything in the way of parity with Israel militarily. Also, I find it very convenient that we're staying out of Syria. My conclusion on that is again-Israel. The last thing we want is for a bunch of islamic extremists to have access the kind of firepower that could allow them to at the very least challenge Israel militarily.

Personally, I have no trouble with Iran having nuclear weapons for the simple reason that it might force Israel to stop acting like a bully if they knew that any future military action against an ally of Iran could raise the specter of a mushroom cloud over Jerusalem. Of course, I do not believe that Iran is stupid enough to actually fly a nuclear missile over Tel Aviv because as fast as Tel Aviv would be reduced to rubble so would Tehran. I do believe however that if the capability was there, it might give Israel reason to pause.

While I'm glad Obama is calling out Netanyahu on his unwillingness to accept a 2 state solution, we have to be realistic: Israel does not, has never, and will never care what the rest of the world thinks. Now, when it comes to the rest of the middle east we have a good track record of forcing the opinion of the rest of the world upon their governments. When it comes to Israel, we look the other way and whistle dixie.

Now, of course, many will argue that Israel is our only Ally in the middle east. To that I suggest that we made that choice. We could easily have backed Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Lebanon, Syria and whoever else over Israel. I would even tend to argue that we should have backed the established states in the region. Of course, our sense of collective guilt over the holocaust would never allow that to happen. Israel has been taking advantage of that sense of collective guilt to build itself up into an 800 pound gorilla that we dont know how to kill, so, we have to play nice with it. Israel will continue to take advantage of that collective guilt until we as a nation start saying "And your point is?" When AIPAC starts screaming holocaust when they dont get what they want.

[Edited 2015-06-04 00:22:50]
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OMP777X
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:55 pm

Quoting QF29 (Reply 12):
Why is it that when anyone is a critic of Israel he/she are labeled as anti-semitic?

That is the Zionist's trump card. Zionism hijacked Judaism and has been saying this to any of their detractors ever since.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 13):
Of course, our sense of collective guilt over the holocaust would never allow that to happen. Israel has been taking advantage of that sense of collective guilt to build itself up into an 800 pound gorilla that we dont know how to kill, so, we have to play nice with it. Israel will continue to take advantage of that collective guilt until we as a nation start saying "And your point is?" When AIPAC starts screaming holocaust when they dont get what they want.

I'm sure many many good hearted folks who were slaughtered mercilessly during the Holocaust are rolling over in their graves at every point Israel plays the victim role in this way to justify their murder of innocent Palestinian civilians and other arabs they seem to love to hate so much. The Zionist mentality preys upon the colective fears off those who's relatives were murdered, and attempts to convince them that Nazi concentration camps are hiding around every corner if we don't surrender all of our tax dollars and political support to AIPAC and Israel. 3,000,000,000+ comes out of the US tax coffer each and every year for them in order to quell that fear and build up our U.S. military base in the Middle East known as Israel. Yet, as we all know and as Doc touched on up above, they're essentially commiting genocide out in the open on the Palestinians while the majority of the world turns a blind eye for fear of being labeled anti-semitic. Propaganda at its finest, and billions of US tax dollars in aid each year, and you have the huge mess we have stepped in over there known as the state of Israel. An illegal country claimed to be a land without people for people without a land. I how I wish that the Zionists had settled on having southern Argentina for their homeland instead of Palestine. Somehow I feel that the racism and self entitlement of the zionists and Israelis that I'm personally acquainted with since being raised around the religion wouldn't be as severe and they'd not be so smug if that were the case.

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DocLightning
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.

Yes, that's why he hosts a seder every year and marks every Jewish holiday and why he employs a whole slew of Jews.

Oh, I suppose I'm an anti-semite, too. I wonder what made me so anti-semitic? Was it my Bar Mitzvah? I mean, I may not follow the religion but I'll be a Jew the day I die.

Nice try, but no. Criticism of Israel ≠ antisemitism.
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solarflyer22
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:45 am

The real problem is that they are in fact lying and doing so publicly and consistently. I naturally keep tabs on Israel and having Persian Jewish friends actually inside AIPAC, it's quite apparent they know. Majority of Jewish Americans and Israelis are in fact aware of their own political lying, find it slightly amusing and are keenly aware of just how much a liar Benjamin Netanyahu in particular is.

The Iran saga was a real turning point. There isn't a Persian (Jewish, Islamic or Zoroastrian) out there who can read that hasn't seen their lying on Iran first hand. The nuclear bomb fear mongering, mistranslations of Ahmadinejad's persian language comments, alleging Iranians would "wear blue jeans if they could" etc. etc. etc.

They have no credibility on anything political. 0. All the good will they had around the world after Munich and even in Iran up until the 2000's they have totally burned.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
All the good will they had around the world after Munich and even in Iran up until the 2000's they have totally burned.

And after the whole "Arabs are loading into buses and going to vote", at least Bibi won't have it so easy.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
The real problem is that they are in fact lying and doing so publicly and consistently.

It really is something isn't it, and Bibi does it so blatantly, and along with a straight face too.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
I naturally keep tabs on Israel and having Persian Jewish friends actually inside AIPAC, it's quite apparent they know.

Yeah I like to keep tabs on Bibi/Israel as well. Almost every other day, there is yet another example of back tracking, lying, twisting of words, misrepresentation etc. Staggering really. Im sure the international news desks have dedicated reporters, just to keep an eye on things over there, full time job i'd say.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
I naturally keep tabs on Israel and having Persian Jewish friends actually inside AIPAC, it's quite apparent they know. Majority of Jewish Americans and Israelis are in fact aware of their own political lying, find it slightly amusing and are keenly aware of just how much a liar Benjamin Netanyahu in particular is.

Amazing, yet these people were probably the ones to vote him back into office for the 4th time      

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
The nuclear bomb fear mongering, mistranslations of Ahmadinejad's persian language comments, alleging Iranians would "wear blue jeans if they could" etc. etc. etc.
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
The nuclear bomb fear mongering, mistranslations of Ahmadinejad's persian language comments, alleging Iranians would "wear blue jeans if they could" etc. etc. etc.

All done to discredit Iran in the international community.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
They have no credibility on anything political.

Unfortunately, he still enjoys some support from various different groups, but it does appear to be waining somewhat these days. Opposition is building on several fronts, especially with the campaign that the BDS is putting up, very successful indeed. Also from within Europe towards his endless infatuation to lie all the time. People simply can't trust the man (Bibi) or the Nation of Israel itself anymore, and with VERY good reason too.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ikramerica
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:30 am

Amnesty international is starting to believe Israel. They had a scathing summary report about the most recent conflict. From Palestinians killing their own children to hiding artillery and missile batteries in schools and hospitals. Just as Israel had claimed at the time v
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TheCommodore
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:04 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):
mnesty international is starting to believe Israel.

Really ?

Id like to see the link if possible

The report I found blamed Israel, at least partially for many of the civilian deaths.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...civilian-casualties-in-Gaza-380797

And the latest UN report blames Israel but also Palestinian militants for many of the deaths

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-2...e-for-gaza-shelter-attacks/6426288
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EA CO AS
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Was it my Bar Mitzvah? I mean, I may not follow the religion but I'll be a Jew the day I die.

Bullpucky. You had your Bar Mitzvah, collected your five grand and got outta the business...  
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:11 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
Bullpucky. You had your Bar Mitzvah, collected your five grand and got outta the business...

It was only 3 grand.  

1990 and all...
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Maverick623
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting QF29 (Reply 12):
Why is it that when anyone is a critic of Israel he/she are labeled as anti-semitic?

It's a common propaganda technique. The US started using it again back in 2001: if you're not with us, you're against us.

I don't think L-188 is one (given his use of "Obummer"), but there are a LOT of paid Israeli propagandists out on social media these days. It's fairly common knowledge that Israel actively recruits young men and women to create mostly fake profiles on various sites (mostly Facebook and Twitter).

I've seen them on here. A common tell is constantly and exclusively starting topics that are pro-Israel with headlines that look like they belong on the Opinions page of the Fox News website.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Alfons
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
ELECTED TEXT
_
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5919 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted Fri Jun 5 2015 20:23:36 your local time (7 hours 23 minutes 18 secs ago) and read 56 times:

Quoting QF29 (Reply 12):
Why is it that when anyone is a critic of Israel he/she are labeled as anti-semitic?

It's a common propaganda technique. The US started using it again back in 2001: if you're not with us, you're against us.

True, the US brought it out again in 2001. It was locked in a safe before.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

I don't think L-188 is one (given his use of "Obummer"),

I don't think either. "L-188" doesn't sound jewish.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

but there are a LOT of paid Israeli propagandists out on social media these days.

As I said, not just the world is infiltrated by jews, but also the WHOLE Internet. They are everywhere.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

It's fairly common knowledge that Israel actively recruits young men and women to create mostly fake profiles on various sites (mostly Facebook and Twitter).

It's a real army, also heard about that. The only fake accounts on Facebook and Twitter are from those young men and women recruits from Israel. Statistics show that 99% of accounts are not fake, and all opinion posts on Facebook and Twitter are usually well meant and unbiased. See, for example, "Maverick623", it's not fake, it's real. That's his real name. Poor schmock.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

I've seen them on here.

Mee too. I see them everywhere, really. I can even smell them from far. I'm so good in catching them, I'm trained in that. I SEE them in a forum, now think about that once... hilarious isn't it?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

A common tell is constantly and exclusively starting topics that are pro-Israel with headlines

I think every time they start such a thread, a mod should delete it. Otherwise it makes no sense as a.net will lose more and more objectivity, like in this thread.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

that look like they belong on the Opinions page of the Fox News website.

It's terrible, isn't it? One news site in the US is always pro-Israel. Luckily all the other 23'423 news sites in the US are fully objective and unbiased. That sum's it up as well, as said the thread starter.

What it sums up I don't know, but for sure it sounds good.
 
jetwet1
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:35 am

Quoting pu (Reply 7):
In ideological terms AFAIK the Palestinians are still a lightning rod of anti-US and anti-Western sentiment used by various governments to distract from their domestic problems and blame outsiders for internal troubles. (Dick Cheney wrote the book on distractions and blaming foreigners for domestic problems but I digress). If it weren't for the injustice committed onto the Palestinians by America and it's client state Israel -according to a certain narrative- America might seem as irrelevant as Europe to most people living in the Middle East.

Do those injustices include the $5B given to the Palestinian Authority which of course was spent on education and health care of the Palestinian citizens and wasn't in any way shape or form taken by Yasser Arafat and his successors.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Not when you have been caught out cheating and lying !

We have had this debate before, at some point, you will figure out that Israel does not care if it is caught lying and cheating, the only thing they care about is taking care of their own interests.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
So is it surprising that they turn to the one recourse they have, which is violence? In fact, Israel provokes the violence as a justification to continue their own campaign of violence against the Palestinians.

Now, I am not arguing that the Palestinians are angels who commit no wrong, but there is definitely a Palestinian side to this narrative.

Both sides provoke each other, the best thing that could happen is for every Palestinian to run to the Med and throw every weapon they have into the sea, call Israels bluff, it will never happen though, sadly, to many people put their own interests before those of the people they are supposed to serve.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Well that is par for the course for Obummer.

His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.

I would ask for proof, but there isn't any, though I am sure "Obummer" is also trying to take your guns, the proof for that is that every now and again a van passes your house...which must be the ATF keeping an eye on you, just waiting for the right moment.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 25):
Both sides provoke each other, the best thing that could happen is for every Palestinian to run to the Med and throw every weapon they have into the sea, call Israels bluff,

Israel would call it an illegal formation of heavily armed terrorists and would start dropping bombs on them.

Quoting Alfons (Reply 24):

That has to be the most seriously passive-aggressive, sarcastic post I've ever seen here. Well done. The only thing I have to say is this:

Quoting Alfons (Reply 24):
It's terrible, isn't it? One news site in the US is always pro-Israel. Luckily all the other 23'423 news sites in the US are fully objective and unbiased.

That sounds like a 5 year old crying "he started it!", or, to be more accurate (and slightly more mature), "Fox shouldn't be called out for lying and being biased because every single other news outlet does the same thing even though I call them out for doing it regularly."
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:31 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Well that is par for the course for Obummer.

His term in office has been constantly marked with anti-Semitism and I have no doubt that he would like to see every jew in Isreal killed.

Please admit yourself to the nearest facility with padded walls where nice men and women in white coats will take good care of you.
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GIANCAVIA
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:15 am

The commodore making an anti Israel thread is like finding German beach towels on a holiday resort recliner at 0500 in the morning.

The tears that are going to flow when Obama is gone and the next president carries on the tradition of backing Israel to the hilt will be amusing.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting giancavia (Reply 28):
carries on the tradition of backing Israel to the hilt will be amusing.

So backing Israel "to the hilt" is something that every president should do? No wonder Arabs resent the US.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
A332DTW
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
So backing Israel "to the hilt" is something that every president should do? No wonder Arabs resent the US.

Yes, but It's not just Arabs, and it's not because every president seems to have unconditional support for Israel. It's the fact that Israel violates international laws and violates basic human rights, and still gets that unconditional support. It's the fact that so many in the West choose to ignore this, even when Israeli Jews themselves call them out. This interview is pretty much the scenario we have today... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmucDToEek

Those who know the facts, and those who just want to yell over you so they don't hear you talk about the facts.

[Edited 2015-06-11 13:32:06]
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting giancavia (Reply 28):
The tears that are going to flow when Obama is gone and the next president carries on the tradition of backing Israel to the hilt will be amusing.

Ahhh giancavia....Your a funny man !

Im so glad to see you haven't forgotten about me.

So don't fret, the bar has been well and truly set in place now, for any future President to deal with Israel and her shenanigans

Europe is....

http://www.smh.com.au/world/eu-moves...ment-products-20150610-ghkfcx.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4667000,00.html

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
No wonder Arabs resent the US.

Crazy US foreign policy. It will change, especially now as the US has lost the appetite for war mongering in far off places. Not to mention the fact they are broke.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 30):
Yes, but It's not just Arabs,

Right, its not just the Arabs. The entire world is slowly coming to grips with Israel's ugly motives.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
josepha1
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting QF29 (Reply 12):

Why is it that when anyone is a critic of Obama he/she are labeled as racist?

I could care less what happens with Israel but all I know is that the powers that be in Israel, Palestinians and Jews, do not want there to be a solution where everyone gets along. They need to keep every hating each other so they stay in power and make their money.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
So backing Israel "to the hilt" is something that every president should do? No wonder Arabs resent the US.

The Arabs won't ever be happy, that's why there is so much crap going on over there. Might as well throw all in for with the Israelis. They are the closest thing to a Western style country over there.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 33):

No, there's so much crap going on over there because as josepha1 mentioned no one is sincerely interested in a peaceful solution. And if apartheid, racism, and land theft is a Western styled principle, good on them.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 34):
No, there's so much crap going on over there because as josepha1 mentioned no one is sincerely interested in a peaceful solution. And if apartheid, racism, and land theft is a Western styled principle, good on them.

I don't think Israel is practicing apartheid, at least the way the South Africans did it. It certainly isn't even as bad as it was for Blacks in the US before the Civil Rights movement. The land theft angle, is obviously the biggest issue. The Arabs are no saints either though.
 
777way
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:37 pm

Arabs might not be saints and nobody is painting them as such, even if they were teh biggest thugs on earth Israel has no reight to take over their lands, more so since its supposed to be the paragon of western democratic virtues and lifestyle in that region.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 33):
The Arabs won't ever be happy

Some won't, but "Arabs" aren't some single entity. I guarantee you the bulk want to live peacefully. Do many/most of them have biases, hatred, etc like anyone else would in a conflict (including the Israelis?) Sure. Are they perfect? Nope. Are they often used as pawns? Of course

But you could just as easily say that the Israelis will never be happy so just throw it in with the Arabs. Of course you'd object with a list of reasons... and you can do the same thing with the Palestinians. So it's pretty give-up-ish to just write one side off and go with the other when you could be just as (in)consistent doing the same thing and going with the other side
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
Some won't, but "Arabs" aren't some single entity. I guarantee you the bulk want to live peacefully. Do many/most of them have biases, hatred, etc like anyone else would in a conflict (including the Israelis?) Sure. Are they perfect? Nope. Are they often used as pawns? Of course

The problem is that both sides are being used as pawns. Both Bibi and Abbas suck ass, as leaders. Abbas is better than Hamas though, MUCH better, if that says anything.

Bibi won precisely because he played up on the genuine fears of the Israeli populace (Hamas/ISIS/Iran/, etc). There is nothing to guarentee that the Palestinians will give up their desire to "push the Jews into the sea", etc. I think the Settler movement might actually get marginalized if there is a peace deal. I don't think the Palestinians will give up their hatred of Jews/Israel though, maybe not for a very long time.

Quoting 777way (Reply 36):
Arabs might not be saints and nobody is painting them as such, even if they were teh biggest thugs on earth Israel has no reight to take over their lands, more so since its supposed to be the paragon of western democratic virtues and lifestyle in that region.

My biggest problem with your argument is the whole "no right to take over their lands". Throughout human history, land was taken over, more often than not, by force. If Israel "has no right to take over their lands", then what do you say about the Islamic conquest of the middle east, south east asia, near asia, etc? Its the same argument. Same as the British taking over North America, European countries in South and Central America, etc. Nazi's and Japan during WWII, the Soviet Empire, the list goes on and on.

Furthermore, Israel gave Gaza back, and look what happened over there. What is the guarentee that the day Israel pulls out of the WB, rockets and mortars won't come flying over? Now, I think the settlers should leave, as they are complicating everything, but a joint Palestinian-Israeli security force should stay on. I don't think the PA has any interest in a possible Hamas/ISIS bunch of wackos coming in and causing havoc. The whole right of return thing, has to be given up. Israel was allotted the space in the pre 1967 borders, and the Palestinians have to adhere to that, regardless of the past.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:25 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 38):
My biggest problem with your argument is the whole "no right to take over their lands". Throughout human history, land was taken over, more often than not, by force. If Israel "has no right to take over their lands", then what do you say about the Islamic conquest of the middle east, south east asia, near asia, etc? Its the same argument. Same as the British taking over North America, European countries in South and Central America, etc. Nazi's and Japan during WWII, the Soviet Empire, the list goes on and on.

I think the real debate is what are acceptable outcomes of wars today? Wars through history are filled with the slaying of all men on the losing side... is that acceptable today*? Wars through history are filled with the rape/capture of the enemy's women... is that acceptable today*?

Now apply that with land transfer and settling. Sure, conquest through war is as old as civilization, doesn't mean we condone it today*. I realize that Israel wasn't trying to go on a conquest and that they were attacked themselves but still, do they have a right to all the land*? Under our morals today? I think it's worthy debate, but simply saying "to the victor lies the spoils" and "that's what happened in all past wars" is not a convincing argument

*I know, we can talk all day about what is "acceptable" in war but it is often broken. Regardless of that, I think we're more or less fighting better more of the time than in wars past
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:44 am

In CGN, upon the insistence of the Israeli embassy an exhibition of photographs by the Israeli soldier activist group "Breaking The Silence", planned for autumn to take place at an adult education center (Volkshochschule), was cancelled. They thought the celebration of 50 years of diplomatic ties between Israel and Germany didn't deserve a critical exhibition.

Jesus effing Christ... is it the same country Netanyahu is from? And Netanyahu was the same guy who paraded himself in Paris a few months ago, at the front a funeral march for the Charlie Hebdo victims?


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
scamp
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Yes, that's why he hosts a seder every year and marks every Jewish holiday and why he employs a whole slew of Jews.

Oh, I suppose I'm an anti-semite, too. I wonder what made me so anti-semitic? Was it my Bar Mitzvah? I mean, I may not follow the religion but I'll be a Jew the day I die.

Nice try, but no. Criticism of Israel ≠ antisemitism.

Your attempt to use logic and reason on small minded commentary is laudable.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting scamp (Reply 41):
Your attempt to use logic and reason on small minded commentary is laudable.

Hey, I seem to have shut him up. For now.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
I think the real debate is what are acceptable outcomes of wars today? Wars through history are filled with the slaying of all men on the losing side... is that acceptable today*? Wars through history are filled with the rape/capture of the enemy's women... is that acceptable today*?

Now apply that with land transfer and settling. Sure, conquest through war is as old as civilization, doesn't mean we condone it today*. I realize that Israel wasn't trying to go on a conquest and that they were attacked themselves but still, do they have a right to all the land*? Under our morals today? I think it's worthy debate, but simply saying "to the victor lies the spoils" and "that's what happened in all past wars" is not a convincing argument

*I know, we can talk all day about what is "acceptable" in war but it is often broken. Regardless of that, I think we're more or less fighting better more of the time than in wars past

I agree with you, and Israel as a country probably doesn't have a right to all the land, at least the West Bank and Gaza. The problem is that we saw what happened when Israel gave Gaza back. It turned into a cesspool of terrorist scumbags, i.e Hamas.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 43):

And why do we have terrorist scumbags? Because of the diffident kind of scumbags in Israel, the ones in suits and ties. Everyone seems to forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims, Israelis and Palestinians, lived together just fine before Israel decided to go all Nazi Germany on Muslim Arabs, and Christians for that matter. And let's not forget who introduced the whole concept of terrorism through its false flag operations decades ago. Everything has a catalyst. Terrorism did not just become like the Big Bang. Cause and result.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 44):
And why do we have terrorist scumbags?

Well, a couple of reasons. First of all, you and I both agree that Israel provokes this with their actions, but there's also the fact that violence is written into the way that Islam is practiced.

"The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

A meeting with an ambassador from ISIS? Al-Qaeda? Saddam's Iraq? Hardly. This is from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Secretary of State, John Jay in 1786 while he was busy trying to negotiate the Treaty with Tripoli. So the idea that the Q'uran is used to justify violence is not exactly new.

In fact, in just about every Muslim country today, religious transgressions (blasphemy, apostasy, etc.) are violently punished. Now, if this is ethical in Karachi or Jeddah, then surely it is ethical anywhere. After all, it's not as if God only controls and establishes basic rules of morality in one geographic area; God controls the whole universe, right? So Islam, especially as it is practiced in the Mid-East expressly encourages religious violence.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 44):
Terrorism did not just become like the Big Bang. Cause and result.

The WORD "terrorism" is relatively new, but the activity is not. Before, it was the Barbary pirates. Why do you think we call them "Barbarians?"

Now, one thing that I will grant is that terrorism is not used when a country has a large military force. Say what you will about Saddam Hussein, but he was not a terrorist. He had a large police and army force to carry out his brutality. They were horrible, yes, but they wore uniforms and fought under a flag. Thus, they did not meet most definitions of terrorism, which is a civilian force not fighting under a flag attacking civilian targets.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 44):
before Israel decided to go all Nazi Germany on Muslim Arabs, and Christians for that matter. And let's not forget who introduced the whole concept of terrorism through its false flag operations decades ago. Everything has a catalyst. Terrorism did not just become like the Big Bang. Cause and result.

Israel didn't go "Nazi Germany" on anyone. If that was true, all the Arabs would have been dead.
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:03 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
but there's also the fact that violence is written into the way that Islam is practiced

And there lies the problem. Ask any religious scholar and they will tell you that the Quran is the most difficult peace of literature to accurately translate into other languages. It is difficult to interpret in Arabic, let alone in a latin derived language, just because each word in Arabic can have various meaning depending on the context. Islam, if placed in proper context, does teach peace at times of peace, and violence at times of war and violence. Now look at the history of conflict in the Middle East and how much of it has been instigated by nations outside the Middle East. Half the population in the Muslim world believes that the West is at war with them (and this is where ISIS does so well in recruitment BTW). What context do you think they will use to learn about Islam and the Quran? This is why President Obama made the effort he did to reach out to the Muslim world and say that the West is not at war with Islam. Unfortunately he was a little too late.

I have read parts of the Quran (English translated), the same peace of literature that an ISIS terrorist reads, yet I find no reason to behead my neighbor because he does not prostrate to God; Reason being we understand it in different contexts. Just like any other holy book, the Quran will satisfy just about anyone. You want to spread peace and tolerance? The Quran will do that. You want to spread violence and intolerance? The Quran will do that. I choose to believe in the Quran in the context of the 21st century. Unfortunately, too many of my fellow Muslims decide to believe in the Quran in a predated context.
 
777way
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 38):
My biggest problem with your argument is the whole "no right to take over their lands". Throughout human history, land was taken over, more often than not, by force. If Israel "has no right to take over their lands", then what do you say about the Islamic conquest of the middle east, south east asia, near asia, etc? Its the same argument. Same as the British taking over North America, European countries in South and Central America, etc. Nazi's and Japan during WWII, the Soviet Empire, the list goes on and on.

Is that a joke, you are comparing invasion of your ancentral lands and other places centuries ago to what 21 century democratic, western value system Israel is doing and approving it based on doings of a so called backward times? what those people did in some circumstances was wrong, unecessary invasion and taking over others lands to expand your empire or spread your religion is wrong, but it happened hundreds of years ago, you trying to justify Israel doing that is you simple hypocricy, immorality and religious bias, and you know it deep down.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1686
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RE: Obama: World Does Not Believe Israel

Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 48):
s that a joke, you are comparing invasion of your ancentral lands and other places centuries ago to what 21 century democratic, western value system Israel is doing and approving it based on doings of a so called backward times? what those people did in some circumstances was wrong, unecessary invasion and taking over others lands to expand your empire or spread your religion is wrong, but it happened hundreds of years ago, you trying to justify Israel doing that is you simple hypocricy, immorality and religious bias, and you know it deep down.

Not trying to justify what Israel is doing, but I'm merely making comparisons.

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