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Kiwirob
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Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:54 am

Even with a Police Officer wearing a bodycamera which clearly shows absolutely nothing was happening a cop gets away with murder.

You can hear the cop penny drop when he says "what the hell were you reaching for man", when all he was doing was holding up his baggy pants. Fot the DA to call this justified, WTF.

Quote:
On August 11, 2014, Dillon Taylor walked out of a local Salt Lake City, Utah, convenience store minding his own business. He wasn’t armed. He wasn’t committing a crime. He was listening to music on his headphones, probably in his own world.

Just two days after Officer Darren Wilson shot and killed an unarmed Mike Brown in Ferguson, Taylor would soon face a similar fate at the hands of a local officer. And on October 1, the district attorney in Salt Lake City, Sim Gill, ruled that the killing of 20-year-old Taylor was justified. Even in his determination, though, he stated that “Taylor’s shooting was justified not because he posed an actual threat, but because (Officer) Cruz reasonably perceived a threat.”

Now that the full video has been released, it’s disturbingly clear that nothing about this police shooting was justified. Nothing at all.
http://revolution-news.com/shocking-...-headphones-when-killed-by-police/
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:31 am

Quoting kiwirob (Thread starter):
You can hear the cop penny drop when he says "what the hell were you reaching for man", when all he was doing was holding up his baggy pants. Fot the DA to call this justified, WTF.

Sure did look like he was reaching for something to me.

What was that he shouted back at the officer? You know, in answer to the command that he could not hear?

Does he say "No fool"?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Kiwirob
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:41 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
Sure did look like he was reaching for something to me.

What was that he shouted back at the officer? You know, in answer to the command that he could not hear?

Does he say "No fool"?

Looks like he was pulling his pants up to me.

The voice saying "no fool" appears to be the other cop, the kid doesn't even know he's about to be murdered, he doesn't react to the commands at all, he's got earphones in and listening to music, I know when i've got buds in listening to loud music I hear nothing except the music.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 2):
Looks like he was pulling his pants up to me.

Looks like he was pulling his shirt up. I know that when I'm practicing my draw, the first thing I do is raise my shirt with my support hand to gain access to my firearm.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 2):
The voice saying "no fool" appears to be the other cop,
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=31772096

"No, fool," Taylor is heard saying"

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 2):
I know when i've got buds in listening to loud music I hear nothing except the music.

You may want to rethink that. People get hit in traffic all the time because of that. I've stopped running with buds in for the very reason, and because I tend to run when it's dark out and I want to hear everything going on around me.

[Edited 2015-06-04 23:54:24]

[Edited 2015-06-04 23:54:48]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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tommy1808
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
I know that when I'm practicing my draw, the first thing I do is raise my shirt with my support hand to gain access to my firearm.

so that kid is dead because the cop had to expect him to conceal carry?

Best regards
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Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:22 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 4):
so that kid is dead because the cop had to expect him to conceal carry?

Yes.

A witness claimed three men were flashing a gun in the area.

Cruz was in the area and arrived first. He spotted the three men based on the witness description and observed their actions. As they went into a 7-Eleven, 2102 S. State, he called for backup and waited for the trio to walk out, believing that at least one of them was armed, Gill said.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=31772096

So, yes the police officer was expecting, based on witness reports, that at least one person was armed. And, considering no firearms were evident, he reasonably assumed that at least one person was carrying a concealed firearm.

[Edited 2015-06-05 00:35:46]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Airstud
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 4):
so that kid is dead because the cop had to expect him to conceal carry?

Yes.

It still doesn't wash with me that the kid had to be shot dead though... Why can't cops shoot first with tasers, or tranquilizer darts, to neutralize a threat (if there even is one). I absolutely don't get why the first and only force these types of cops apply in cases like these is deadly force.
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:31 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 10):
Why can't cops shoot first with tasers,

Not sure if these officers are equipped with a Tazer, but I suspect when you are dispatched to a gun call, you are anticipating finding someone with a gun.

But, I'll ask my buddy what the "man with a gun" protocol is. It may be a few days before I get a chance to ask him.

Maybe a couple of our law-enforcement types can answer what their department SOP is for "man with a gun".

Quoting Airstud (Reply 10):
or tranquilizer darts,

Seriously?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
of course you can, just do the practice like it was loaded.

Is there any other way to train?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 6):
So, yes the police officer was expecting, based on witness reports, that at least one person was armed. And, considering no firearms were evident, he reasonably assumed that at least one person was carrying a concealed firearm.

This is Salt Lake City, give me a break. They haven't had a officer shot and killed on duty since 2001/ 14 years ago. This policeman over reacted, and is poorly trained. Yes, of course he's not going to be charged. but, it doesn't mean that anybody thinks he's a great police officer. It just shows he's paranoid and probably should find another line of work.

Not everybody wearing a uniform should be a cop.

none of the three men were carrying a gun. The kid was lifting his shirt up, with one hand and the other hand cannot be seen on the video. I suspect he was reaching in his pocket to turn off his player.


the thing is, he had been following them while waiting for back up. He had to realize that he was listen to music.



[Edited 2015-06-05 01:39:55]

[Edited 2015-06-05 01:47:25]
 
Airstud
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:41 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
Quoting Airstud (Reply 10):
or tranquilizer darts,

Seriously?

As serious as that WKRP episode...


Edit: Also, it's like 4am o'clock the hell in the morning; what are you doing up?

[Edited 2015-06-05 01:50:46]
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 13):
This is Salt Lake City, give me a break. They haven't had a officer shot and killed on duty since 2001/ 14 years ago.

Irrelevant.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 13):
This policeman over reacted, and is poorly trained.

Opinion, that is unsupported by the video.

-The officer was responding to a person(s) flashing a firearm.
-The officer was issuing commands that were being ignored.
-The "victim" turned around and was aware that the officer was addressing him.
-The "victim" issued a defiance to the officer: "No fool!"
-The "victim" continued to move, backing away from the officers...trying to make space.
-The "victim" then raised his shirt, allowing access to his waistband.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 13):
but, it doesn't mean that anybody thinks he's a great police officer.

I don't think anybody has.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:57 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 14):
Edit: Also, it's like 4am o'clock the hell in the morning; what are you doing up?

I'm at work, waiting for airplanes to break...what about you?

Quoting Airstud (Reply 14):
As serious as that WKRP episode...

Which episode is that? I don't recall it.

But, to my point:

Tranquillizer darts are not generally included in military or police less-than-lethal arsenals because no drug is yet known that would be quickly and reliably effective on humans without the risks of side effects or an overdose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranquillizer_gun

[Edited 2015-06-05 02:07:29]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Airstud
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
I'm at work, waiting for airplanes to break...what about you?

I'm at work, waiting for mainframes to break.

(Or I should say, watching mainframes break.   )
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Aesma
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:33 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
-The officer was responding to a person(s) flashing a firearm.
-The officer was issuing commands that were being ignored.
-The "victim" turned around and was aware that the officer was addressing him.
-The "victim" issued a defiance to the officer: "No fool!"
-The "victim" continued to move, backing away from the officers...trying to make space.
-The "victim" then raised his shirt, allowing access to his waistband.

You put "victim" in quotes as if he wasn't a victim. I guess it was a victimless crime, then.
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:46 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
You put "victim" in quotes as if he wasn't a victim. I guess it was a victimless crime, then.

The descriptor, victim, leads us to suspect that there was a crime committed by the officer. There was not.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Aesma
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:06 am

There was not according to one person that gets to decide arbitrarily.

According to a layman, there certainly was. Keep that discrepancy between justice and Justice going and your civilization will collapse.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:37 am

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 13):
Yes, of course he's not going to be charged. but, it doesn't mean that anybody thinks he's a great police officer.

I'm sure the civil suit will do a good job bankrupting this guy and take a big chunk of city money.

It's incompetent policing by a poorly trained coward in a uniform. What would have happened in NZ is Dillion most likely would have been taken down by a dog, it's standard practice in situations like this, nobody would have been killed, just a few bite marks.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:37 pm

Holy crap you are so full of it.

Quoting kiwirob (Thread starter):
Even with a Police Officer wearing a bodycamera which clearly shows absolutely nothing was happening

Wrong. The cop had his gun drawn and was screaming commands at the guy to show his hands and get down on the ground. The guy was not complying and trying to walk away, with his hands in his pants as if he were reaching for something.

Whole lot more than "absolutely nothing was happening".

Quoting kiwirob (Thread starter):
when all he was doing was holding up his baggy pants.

While evading a police officer giving lawful commands with a gun drawn on him.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 2):
he doesn't react to the commands at all

Are you for real dude? He turns around and openly defies the officer by continuing to walk away with his hands moving around in his pants.

Are you telling me that if a cop had a gun pointed at you and was telling you to "get down", that you would believe it reasonable to continue to walk away while fiddling with something in your pants?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 21):
I'm sure the civil suit will do a good job bankrupting this guy and take a big chunk of city money.

Shows how little you know. The cop is protected from a lawsuit, as he was acting lawfully in his official capacity as a police officer. The city may settle for less than the cost of a defense, but rest assured that the money spent is a drop in the bucket.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 13):
I suspect he was reaching in his pocket to turn off his player.

Which means he's either and idiot or planning something. The first thing you do when a cop with a gun pointed at you tells you to show him your hands and get on the ground, is to show him your hands and get on the ground. Even if he couldn't hear clearly, a gun pointed at you is a pretty sure sign that if you do anything besides put your hands up, you are probably going to get shot.
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 21):
What would have happened in NZ is Dillion most likely would have been taken down by a dog, it's standard practice in situations like this, nobody would have been killed, just a few bite marks.

And, if there were a dog available here, that would have probably happened also; along with the headline: police dog mauls unarmed man listening to music.

But, to the point: since there is no dog in evidence, it appears no dog was on the scene. Should the police have waited for a K-9 unit? How many are available? How much time to get that unit to the scene? What to do while waiting? Oh, I know, we can allow the subject to go free and worry about the "man with a gun" call later.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
There was not according to one person that gets to decide arbitrarily.

Hardly arbitrary. Gill, you know, the person charged with making this decision, made his decision based on evidence, not on emotion.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Kiwirob
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:58 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Wrong. The cop had his gun drawn and was screaming commands at the guy to show his hands and get down on the ground. The guy was not complying and trying to walk away, with his hands in his pants as if he were reaching for something.

Whole lot more than "absolutely nothing was happening".

SO basically you've justified any police shooting anywhere in America. Giving the cops a free hand to shoot anyone they like, whenever they like, for whatever reason they can come up with?
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 25):
SO basically you've justified any police shooting anywhere in America. Giving the cops a free hand to shoot anyone they like, whenever they like, for whatever reason they can come up with?

Where did you get that from Maverick's post?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cjg225
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
of course you can, just do the practice like it was loaded.

So... you recognize that the following is wrong?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 8):
The only unloaded firearm is a disassembled one. Rule drilled in my head probably 1000 times by my shooting instructor, mostly in the short form of "there is no such thing as an unloaded firearm".

So, which is it?

Is an unloaded firearm one that is disassembled or one that is assembled but has no ability to chamber a round by virtue of there being no rounds in the firearm?

Because the only way to reconcile those two comments is to assume you are saying that someone should practice with a disassembled firearm, which would be: 1) really weird; and 2) ridiculously ineffective for training.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:25 pm

Easy he's saying to people must completely and utterly comply with any and every instruction a police officer makes, failure to do so will result in death like this incident. Thank Christ I was brought up in and now live in civilized countries where this kind of police murder will never happen. This idiot cowardly cop could have and should have waited for a dog.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):
So, which is it?

got to ask my instructor from about 25 years ago.

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Tugger
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 8):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
(with an unloaded firearm),

The only unloaded firearm is a disassembled one. Rule drilled in my head probably 1000 times by my shooting instructor, mostly in the short form of "there is no such thing as an unloaded firearm".

The version I have learned is "Never assume a firearm is unloaded, always approach, inspect, and initially handle a firearm with the assumption that is it loaded and can harm you and others. Only after it is under control, has been inspected and verified by you to be "unloaded" (just using your term), should you handle a gun without said assumption.

This allows safe management of ones firearms (you remove and clears the rounds prior to placing them in your gun case, then lock it and go away. When you return and go to handle them again you again recheck and clear them prior to handling them, etc.)

So yes, you can safely handle your own weapon, knowing it is unloaded if you follow the above method. Of course someone else around you who has not participated in the clearing actions cannot (assuming a maximum safety stance, which since guns can kill is a wise mode to be in).

This is why "open carry" fails badly (most of the time) anyone knowledge of firearms must assume a firearm is loaded. Which is the right thing to do.

Tugg
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 28):
This idiot cowardly cop could have and should have waited for a dog.

How long should he have waited? Until the person that may have had a gun fled the scene? Until this same person that may have had a gun grabbed someone? Hurt someone?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 28):
Easy he's saying to people must completely and utterly comply with any and every instruction a police officer makes, failure to do so will result in death like this incident.

Actually, that's some pretty good advice there. These officers were dispatched to a "man with a gun" call. Which part of that do you not understand? They demand and expect immediate compliance.

As a person that is approached by an officer, it is your job to do your best to put that officer at ease. He is entering an unknown scene. He does not know what your motives are. He does not know what you have done, nor what you plan to do. The only information he has is what he's been told and what he observes. In this case:

Told: Person(s) with a gun
Observed:
Man not complying with commands
Man backing away from officer with hands in waistband
Man quickly lifting shirt to expose.........what?

Quoting Tugger (Reply 30):
Only after it is under control, has been inspected and verified by you to be "unloaded" (just using your term), should you handle a gun without said assumption.

And, even then you follow all the other rules. Because you never want to break habit.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Kiwirob
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
How long should he have waited? Until the person that may have had a gun fled the scene? Until this same person that may have had a gun grabbed someone? Hurt someone?

He didn't have a gun. He wasn't threatening anyone, the cop was simply a gun ho coward who shot first rather than making a proper assessment of the situation. I could 100% guarantee this would never have happened in NZ, Australia, Norway, UK and probably the rest of Europe. IMO Police training academies in the US to graduate inadequate people for law enforcement positions.
 
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cjg225
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 29):
got to ask my instructor from about 25 years ago.

Not sure why I would have to since you're the one who supported your instructor's view and then shortly thereafter totally contradicted it.
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Maverick623
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 25):
SO basically you've justified any police shooting anywhere in America.

Nope. I justified this one.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 25):
Giving the cops a free hand to shoot anyone they like, whenever they like, for whatever reason they can come up with?

Yes and no. Cops can shoot anyone they like, whenever they like, as long as the reason is sound. Responding to a man with a gun call, and coming across someone who is acting EXACTLY like someone who has a gun and is intending to pull it out and not listening to commands is a pretty darn good reason to shoot that guy.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 28):
Easy he's saying to people must completely and utterly comply with any and every instruction a police officer makes, failure to do so will result in death like this incident.

When a cop has his gun pointed at you, yes, you must completely comply with their instructions or risk being shot.

I don't know why you think this is some sort of game or academic exercise.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 32):
He didn't have a gun.

He sure as hell acted like he did.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 32):
He wasn't threatening anyone

Yes, he was. Openly and brazenly telling a cop "no" when he tells you to get on the ground while reaching in your waistband in the exact motion one would to pull a gun is a threatening gesture.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 32):
I could 100% guarantee this would never have happened in UK

Oh, really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

Sorry, you just lost all credibility with that one.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Maverick623
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
And yet a whole lot less than this cop actually ever being in any danger.

If I walk up to you with my hand in my coat pocket with something pointing at you, and say "give me your wallet", would you perceive yourself do be in danger? Would you take necessary defensive actions?

What if, after the fact, you discover that I was unarmed and using my finger to give the appearance I had a weapon?

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
The facts however show that less than 100 or so cops die every year, and most of them are in traffic accidents -- NOT because they were shot by a citizen.

Baloney statistic. How may cops are shot at, stabbed, or otherwise attacked and seriously injured or at risk of serious injury without being killed?

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
It's time to stop this absolutely asinine assumption that a guy pulling up his pants, reaching for his wallet, pulling out his ID,
saying hello, asking for help, adjusting his hearing aid, etc. etc. is an attack on a cop in disguise.

Asinine assumption?

Do me a favor: go to YouTube and type in "police officer shot".

And then I want you to find a widow, or child, of an officer that was shot and killed, and look them in the eye and tell them that their loved one did the right thing by taking a bullet, because you think cops shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves.

That goes for kiwirob as well.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 37):

I don't see that at all, to me it looks like he was pulling up his pants.

I saw a guy who was specifically told to keep his hands up (because the cop rightly suspected he had a gun), and instead put them in his pants.

You know, you're confusing sometimes. Didn't you go on a rant not to long ago about youth in Norway not respecting adults?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 37):
Saying no to a cop is no justification for being killed.

Yeah, that's not what got him shot. What got him shot was reaching into his pants after being told to keep his hand up and to get on the ground.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 37):
go one find me another example over the past 10 years
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...th-safety-unarmed-anthony-grainger

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...odney-seven-years-ago-8084763.html

And I saw links for a few more. But that's okay. You just keep living in your fantasy land where everyone is innocent, all cops are bad guys, and people should never have to listen to them.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):

And I saw links for a few more. But that's okay. You just keep living in your fantasy land where everyone is innocent, all cops are bad guys, and people should never have to listen to them.
http://killedbypolice.net/

493 people killed by police in the US this year already.

1104 2014
770 2013

Compared to 55 people killed by UK police since 1990.

http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings
 
Redd
Posts: 1232
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 39):
http://killedbypolice.net/

Really puts the scale in perspective seeing the names. There isn't barely a day that doesn't go by where multiple people are shot by Police in the USA.

Here's an interesting one, officer tries to shoot non-aggressive dog because it startled him, misses and kills a 34 year-old woman in front of her 4 year old son.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...oting-vicious-burlington/24078037/
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 32):
He didn't have a gun.

Unknown at the time.

Once again, the police was dispatched to "man with a gun" call.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 32):
He wasn't threatening anyone

Once again, he failed to follow the police officer's commands. He failed to show his hands. Then, he abruptly raises his shirt, gaining access to his waistband.

All his action were threatening, in that situation.

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
This notion that every time a cop interacts with a citizen, his life is in danger is simply not borne out by the statistics.

Correct. The vast majority or officer/civilian interactions result in violent action at all.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
But, I'll ask my buddy what the "man with a gun" protocol is.

So, I was expecting a "it depends" type answer. A "man with a gun" call gets police officers with guns. Response with a Tazer is not allowed. A Tazer has limited range. Different people hit by a Tazer will react differently. The fear is that when the muscles begin to contract/convulse, the firearm will discharge.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
D L X
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:57 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
If I walk up to you with my hand in my coat pocket with something pointing at you, and say "give me your wallet", would you perceive yourself do be in danger?

  
Not even remotely analogous. Nobody came up to this cop pointing anything at him, saying "give me your wallet."

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
Baloney statistic.

Are you calling me a liar?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
How may cops are shot at, stabbed, or otherwise attacked and seriously injured or at risk of serious injury without being killed?

That's my whole point. It's a lot less than you think.

Cops kill citizens more than citizens kill cops.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):

Do me a favor: go to YouTube and type in "police officer shot".

When I did that, I got these results:

- FULL GRAPHIC VIDEO Of S.C Police Officer SHOOTING ...
- Police Officer Accidentally Shoots Himself in Elevator (FULL ...
- Amvid: White police officer shoots dead unarmed black man ...
- Video shows police officer crying on his car after shooting unarmed man | Mashable

What exactly were you trying to prove with this?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
And then I want you to find a widow, or child, of an officer that was shot and killed, and look them in the eye and tell them that their loved one did the right thing by taking a bullet, because you think cops shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves.

 

Ahh. The "ignore statistics and facts, and appeal to emotion" argument. Perhaps you should go talk to the widow of Eric Garner, the fiance of Walter Scott, and the mother of Freddie Gray, and look them in the eye and tell them that their loved one was dead, but that the cop did the right thing.

And then you follow it up with the straw man argument that I don't think cops should be allowed to protect themselves. There's so much bull in this post, it's hard to respond to it all.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
Correct. The vast majority or officer/civilian interactions result in violent action at all.

So why is the law set up to assume that every interaction with a citizen is likely to end the cop's life?
 
Maverick623
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):
Not even remotely analogous. Nobody came up to this cop pointing anything at him, saying "give me your wallet."

Your argument was "the suspect wasn't armed". I was making the point that it doesn't necessarily matter if someone is armed or not.

And it is analogous. Just like saying "give me your wallet" is threatening, lifting your shirt up and going into your waistband is also threatening; just in a nonverbal way.

Unless you think threats are only ever verbal.

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):

That's my whole point. It's a lot less than you think.

Got a source for that?

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):

Cops kill citizens more than citizens kill cops.

Well, frankly, that's how it should be. Zero dead cops, and the only dead citizens are ones that presented an immediate threat to someone's life.

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):

When I did that, I got these results:

- FULL GRAPHIC VIDEO Of S.C Police Officer SHOOTING ...
- Police Officer Accidentally Shoots Himself in Elevator (FULL ...
- Amvid: White police officer shoots dead unarmed black man ...
- Video shows police officer crying on his car after shooting unarmed man | Mashable

What exactly were you trying to prove with this?

Ah, yes. Conveniently skip over the ones where a cops was ambushed or otherwise assaulted with a gun or another weapon.

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):

Ahh. The "ignore statistics and facts, and appeal to emotion" argument.

An appropriate response to "twist the statistics and facts" argument.

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):
Perhaps you should go talk to the widow of Eric Garner, the fiance of Walter Scott, and the mother of Freddie Gray, and look them in the eye and tell them that their loved one was dead, but that the cop did the right thing.

Garner was a career criminal who died because he resisted a lawful arrest with violence and had a medical condition which made him susceptible to heart and breathing problems during a struggle. I guess we should just let suspects go free when they resist arrest, lest they fail to take responsibility for their actions and die because of it.

The other two were murdered, plain and simple. I will not defend the officers in those cases.

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):

And then you follow it up with the straw man argument that I don't think cops should be allowed to protect themselves.

It's hardly a straw man. You used the Eric Garner case as evidence of excessive force. Please, tell me how a cop is supposed to arrest someone who has made clear his intention to fight anyone who tires to put cuffs on him?

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):

So why is the law set up to assume that every interaction with a citizen is likely to end the cop's life?

Well, that's not how the law is set up. A cop just can't shoot anyone he comes into contact with without a good reason.

I've been pulled over five times. Three of those times the cop approached with his hand on his gun (still holstered but ready to be drawn). Guess what: I made no threatening gestures and complied with every command, especially the ones that had me keep my hands in sight. Guess what: never had to worry about losing my life, and neither did the cop.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
tommy1808
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):
Not sure why I would have to since you're the one who supported your instructor's view and then shortly thereafter totally contradicted it.

Thinking about it, there is no contradiction. A disassembled gun isn´t a gun, it is an assortment of gun pieces. Something as a disassembled gun therefore doesn´t exist. Hence only a disassembled gun is unloaded and no gun is unloaded mean the the same thing. A gun is always loaded.
I didn´t think that gruff old guy was such a philosopher, but apparently we should have called him Sensei.

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):
So why is the law set up to assume that every interaction with a citizen is likely to end the cop's life?

It probably isn´t, but its application is. Simple case of confirmation bias. Cops and guns are good, hence pretty much whatever happens with both has to be ok. The mind races to find excuses for inexcusable behavior. Even for the cops shooting Scott Walker some users tried to make up excuses. It is also very noticeable that statistical data almost always provokes ad hominem and tu-quoque arguments, also in this thread, Police is much less violent in the UK, and right away someone digs up...

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):

Oh, really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

Sorry, you just lost all credibility with that one.

So, one case vs. 1000s ..... typical tu quoque. It is just like "oh, you did Iraq, so stop complaining" in the Ukraine threads or "What about Iran Air 655" in the MH17 ones. Only a few orders of magnitude less applicable of course.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Kiwirob
Topic Author
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:12 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 35):
It is just like "oh, you did Iraq, so stop complaining" in the Ukraine threads or "What about Iran Air 655" in the MH17 ones. Only a few orders of magnitude less applicable of course.

Well Iraq is a far bigger mess than Ukraine will ever be and Iran Air 655 and MH17 are very similar, both happened to due to the incompetance of the people firing the missile.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 35):
Cops and guns are good, hence pretty much whatever happens with both has to be ok.

If you changed that to well trained cops with guns are good then I agree with you. How many people have German police gunned down this year, it's 1. The US has 5 x the population and 500 times the number of people killed by police, it's a shocking statistic.

Every 8 hours someone in the US gets killed by police. If that's not a problem and people can't see it's a problem, it will only get worse.

Quote:

In fact, being a police officer isn’t even close to being in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in this country. According to the 2013 report by the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics on work-related fatal injuries, “Police and sheriff’s patrol deputies” ranked as the 41st most dangerous occupation.

Also, according to an FBI report, Americans are less violent than ever; its the police who have been increasingly violent.

With job related danger so low, there is no excuse for the police to be so trigger happy, acting like they are Batman and every citizen is a violent villain hell bent on their death.

As Liberation News pointed out, a vast majority of those killed by the police in 2015 have again been young African Americans and Latinos. The two youngest were both 17-years-old, Kristiana Coignard of Texas and Jessica Hernandez of Colorado. The oldest was 87-year-old Lewis Becker from rural upstate New York.

Officers who cannot bring 17-year-old girls or 87-year-old men into custody safely have absolutely no business “protecting and serving” anyone. A person who cannot control a situation with a 90 pound high school girl or an elderly gentleman, and “fear for their life” so severely that they need to pull a trigger, is not a hero, they’re a coward.

It is time for the United States to get over its love affair with idolizing the badge.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop...led-8-hours-2015-early-graves-day/
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12882
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:06 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):
Well Iraq is a far bigger mess than Ukraine will ever be and Iran Air 655 and MH17 are very similar, both happened to due to the incompetance of the people firing the missile.

I always wonder, did Pawlow really have a dog and if so, what was his name?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):
The US has 5 x the population and 500 times the number of people killed by police, it's a shocking statistic.

just 4 times the population, unless i missed how the US got beyond 400 million people. Being shot by a cop is about as likely in the US as it is to be murdered at all in lets say Iceland or Japan. They still fight murder in those places....

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):

If you changed that to well trained cops with guns are good then I agree with you

In a country where about 50% of all self defense uses of firearms by civilians are probably against the law and gun owners being more likely to escalate situations, cops do have a lot more to worry about. Criminals get guns because civilians have them, and cops are scared of being gunned down because criminals often have guns. Self-preservation instinct kicking in and good judgment hardly ever play along nicely.
The hostile environment they work probably contributes a lot to the carnage.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3509
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
and coming across someone who is acting EXACTLY like someone who has a gun

But acting exactly like someone who has a gun does not mean that he wasn't acting exactly like someone who didn't have a gun (evidently).

Cats have 4 legs.
Animals with 4 legs are cats.
Dogs have 4 legs.
All dogs are cats.

Fred
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):
So why is the law set up to assume that every interaction with a citizen is likely to end the cop's life?

Because it can. Cops are attacked all the time during "routine traffic stops". Injured and shot during a "routine domestic call." Lately, we've had officers "minding their own business", being ambushed.

It is up to the citizen to put the officer at ease during any interaction. He does not know what is in your mind. He does not know what is happening, other than what he's been told and what he sees. He has to stabilize the situation.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 35):
A disassembled gun isn´t a gun,

Tell that to the BAFTE. Google an image of a stripped AR15 Lower. That is a firearm according to the government.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 38):
But acting exactly like someone who has a gun does not mean that he wasn't acting exactly like someone who didn't have a gun (evidently).

But, isn't it prudent of the police to act as though someone has a gun when they are dispatched to a "man with a gun" call? Especially, when that person fails to follow clear commands and makes a move/motion that may be perceived as threatening?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12882
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
It is up to the citizen to put the officer at ease during any interaction

so I guess when I eat at an restaurant I have to make the server feel all peachy following the same logic. Cops should serve (!) and protect ..... I didn't know serving is new speak for "Obey me!" and protect is so focused on themselfs. Police killing more people than other countries murderers speaks volumes.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 40):
so I guess when I eat at an restaurant I have to make the server feel all peachy following the same logic.

Only if the server's job is to enforce laws and routinely puts him in situations that may become violent.


Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 40):
and protect is so focused on themselfs.

Let's understand something:

A police officer's first duty is to himself. His end-game should be to go home at the end of his shift. Every action he takes should center around that goal. Any risks he takes should be balanced against that goal. He has training, tools and legal authority that allow him to take risks that you and I shouldn't and/or wouldn't, but his goal should be to go home when the day ends.

Now, let me ask this: why wouldn't you want to put a police officer at ease when he first comes on scene? Do you want to keep him on edge? Do you want him to to see you as a possible, elevated threat the whole time you're dealing with him? Of course not.

That's what I mean when I say a citizen's job is to put an officer at ease during an interaction.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12882
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 41):
A police officer's first duty is to himself.

and here I always thought the first duty is to the innocent and victims.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 41):
why wouldn't you want to put a police officer at ease when he first comes on scene?

Because as a citizen I expect him to perhaps, because he is there for me? You guys have the most twisted expectations towards your cops. He is trained in citizen encounters, I am not. Heck, I could probably still count all the times I even talked to a cop in an official capacity in my life. What's next? Role plays "how not to get shot when encountering a cop" in school? Right next to the "You can say no" classes against child abuse perhaps?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Tugger
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 41):
A police officer's first duty is to himself. His end-game should be to go home at the end of his shift. Every action he takes should center around that goal. Any risks he takes should be balanced against that goal. He has training, tools and legal authority that allow him to take risks that you and I shouldn't and/or wouldn't, but his goal should be to go home when the day ends.

Actually, I expect the police officer to put his/her life between me (the innocent public at large) and the bad guys. They go first, that's what the public hired him for, that is the job and position they accepted. Doesn't mean they go out to get hurt intentionally or otherwise or that the officer has to stand there and take a bullet not defending himself. But in the end I disagree with your statement. Doesn't mean many officers don't agree with it, but I do and I suspect the public at large would too.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 42):
and here I always thought the first duty is to the innocent and victims.

  

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 42):
and here I always thought the first duty is to the innocent and victims.

So, you expect him to run head-long into an unknown situation without regard to his safety?

Do you expect firefighters to enter a burning building to save life and property regardless of the danger to themselves?

Same type of question for EMS: should they enter an unsecured shooting scene to save the innocent? How about an unstable car accident?

Sorry, anyone who has been trained in emergency services will tell you that the training is drilled into you every damn day:

You can not help anyone if you are killed or injured while trying to help them.

The first duty is to yourself. Your training, equipment and doctrine allow you to take risks to help others.


Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 42):
Because as a citizen I expect him to perhaps, because he is there for me?

So, you want to keep him on edge? That's fine. That's up to you.

For me...when I get pulled over, I lower the window, shut-off the radio and engine, take off sunglasses or turn on the overhead light (as the case may be) and place my hands on the steering wheel and await the officer.

That is putting the officer at ease.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3509
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
But, isn't it prudent of the police to act as though someone has a gun when they are dispatched to a "man with a gun" call? Especially, when that person fails to follow clear commands and makes a move/motion that may be perceived as threatening?

He did not have a gun therefore:
- It was either a man "suspected" of having a gun
-There was "a" man with a gun - what's to say it was him?

He did not respond the police officers clear commands:
-He may not have heard them either because of the headphones or through lack of hearing.
-Acted irrationally because he had a gun pointed at him by a man with a distinct lack of control in his voice.

I still don't see why the best course of action was to shoot him, it looked very much like a lack of self control.

Fred
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Tugger
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
For me...when I get pulled over, I lower the window, shut-off the radio and engine, take off sunglasses or turn on the overhead light (as the case may be) and place my hands on the steering wheel and await the officer.

That is putting the officer at ease.

I don't do anything to "put the officer at ease". I do much of what you note simply because it is the right and proper and polite thing to do (someone want to speak with you, someone you respect/have to respect at least initially, what do you do?). However when asked for my registration I do just reach over and open my glove box and dig into my pocket for my licence (unless I know I just got busted for something I did and already know why I am being stopped, then I may have those things ready but I tend to avoid admitting anything and would rather an officer tell me the reason for a stop and what they need). I don't expect the officer to draw on me for doing such things or be nervous seeing me do such things (I could have "gotten the gun" out of the glove box before they walked up to my window etc. so it is relatively meaningless).

But I am initially always polite and will listen and respond appropriately in a way that is respectful (of both myself and my rights and the officer). Of course I also do not generally do things/find myself in situations where an officer would need to approach me hostilely. If I were I probably would specifically do things to put an officer at ease so they could focus on the real problem and not me/worry about me.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
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Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
Do you expect firefighters to enter a burning building to save life and property regardless of the danger to themselves?

Well, if your FDs worked like the modus operandi of the PDs you support so much, no figherfigher would ever enter a burning building, because... hey.. it's on fire, I my be arme... äh...collapse.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 45):
He did not have a gun therefore:

And, the responding officers knew this, how?

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 45):
-He may not have heard them either because of the headphones or through lack of hearing.

Yet, he turned around and responding to the officer in a defiant manner, "No fool!"

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 45):
-Acted irrationally because he had a gun pointed at him by a man with a distinct lack of control in his voice.

A gun pointed at him by a uniformed police officer. A police officer yelling commands, which were ignored. "No fool!"

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 45):
I still don't see why the best course of action was to shoot him, it looked very much like a lack of self control.

Please point out where I have written that it was the best course of action. I maintain that the officer's response was legal and within department policy. And, within control. The officer made a conscious decision to shoot based on available evidence, not the evidence that comes to light after the event.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 46):
However when asked for my registration I do just reach over and open my glove box and dig into my pocket for my licence

In response to a request or command from the officer.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 47):
Well, if your FDs worked like the modus operandi of the PDs you support so much, no figherfigher would ever enter a burning building, because... hey.. it's on fire, I my be arme... äh...collapse.

Well, having spent 10 years as a firefighter/EMT, with 3 of those years as a Captain, I can assure you, when we entered a building, we did so after weighing the risks and "rewards".

You may not see it, but the information is collected and processed in seconds and a decision made.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
D L X
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RE: Police Body Camera Failure

Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 41):
A police officer's first duty is to himself.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

This is why policing is so out of control right now.

A police officer's first duty is to the citizenry that it represents!

So incredibly wrong that nothing else said is even remotely important.

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