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itsjustme
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Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:24 am

I just watched a "Frontline" documentary titled "Death By Fire." It addressed the capital murder case of a small town Texas man named Cameron Todd Willingham. While Mr. Willingham was home with his three young daughters, the home caught fire and his three children perished. Mr. Willingham was able to escape with only minor burns. Willingham was charged with arson and the capital murder of his three children. The court case lasted three days and the jury took just an hour to find him guilty and they sentenced him to death. That sentence was carried out on February 17, 2004. However, three months prior to his execution, several arson experts, a few of them holding PhD's in the science of arson investigation, came forward and disputed the findings of the sole firefighter who titled the fire at the Willingham home an arson over a decade earlier. Thanks to new technology that was now being used to investigate suspected arson fires, it was readily apparent that the fire Willingham was accused of and convicted of starting was, indeed, an accidental fire. Yet the Texas State Supreme Court and the United States Supreme court refused to hear the appeals and Texas executed an innocent man it knew to be innocent on February 17, 2004. What's even more maddening is the political game (at that time) Governor Rick Perry played in deciding not to stay Mr. Willingham's execution. Mr. Perry was up for reelection at the time and as one campaign expert noted, "If you want to get reelect as Governor in Texas, you don't go soft on criminals and you don't take a man off of death row who has been convicted of setting a fire that killed three young children." So, even though six arson experts had determined the fire was accidental, Mr. Perry refused to stop the execution of an innocent person.

Those of you who have resided in Texas since the early 90's are probably aware of this tragic story. I encourage those who are not familiar with the story to watch the Frontline documentary, "Death By Fire."
 
Elite
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:53 am

A quick search reveals not only did Mr. Perry refuse to grant him clemency but has also been accused of impeding the investigation itself.

Sadly, he is not the first nor last innocent man to be executed.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
While Mr. Willingham was home with his three young daughters, the home caught fire and his three children perished. Mr. Willingham was able to escape with only minor burns.

Something doesn't ring true here IMO. He got out with barely a burn on him whilst his daughters perished, as a father I'd die trying to save my kids if in the same situation, they mean everything to me, this guy was a coward, so he gets what he desirved IMO.

If the witness statements are correct, then the father wasn't much of a dad.

Quote:
According to their sworn statements, both Brandice Barbee and Diane Barbee urged Willingham to return into the house to rescue his children, as according to Brandice Barbee, "all I could see was smoke".[10] According to Brandice, he refused, and went to move his car away from the fire before returning to sit on a nearby lawn "not once attempting to go inside to rescue his children". Once the fire had reached flashover and the fire department arrived, Willingham became far more agitated, to the point of being restrained by emergency services.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
Something doesn't ring true here IMO. He got out with barely a burn on him whilst his daughters perished, as a father I'd die trying to save my kids if in the same situation, they mean everything to me, this guy was a coward, so he gets what he desirved IMO.

Thing is, he wasn't convicted and killed for being a coward. He was convicted and killed for a crime that, not only he didn't commit, but never even occurred.

A friend of his said Willingham admitted to her he was a "coward" (his word) for running out of the house. She said he admitted to concocting the story about trying to rescue his kids because he felt guilty for not dying while trying to save his children. He also told her that it doesn't matter what people say about burning alive trying to save the kids. It's not humanly possible to let yourself catch on fire.

Quoting elite (Reply 1):
A quick search reveals not only did Mr. Perry refuse to grant him clemency but has also been accused of impeding the investigation itself.

Perry wasn't the only one who impeded the investigation. The prosecutor in the case, John Jackson is now under investigation by the Texas State Bar for misconduct as well. As the documentary illustrates, a fellow inmate of Willingham's, Johnny Webb testified that Willingham had confessed to him and admitted to starting the fire and killing his kids. However, Webb later recanted his story, saying he had been told by the prosecutor to say what he did with the promise of early release from prison. And court documents uncovered by a group calling themselves "The Innocence Project" corroborate everything Webb said about Jackson and being told to lie about Willingham's "confession."

[Edited 2015-06-28 01:23:33 by ManuCH]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting elite (Reply 1):
A quick search reveals not only did Mr. Perry refuse to grant him clemency but has also been accused of impeding the investigation itself.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:58 pm

It seems these investigating reporting shows, are starting to point out the flaws in the Texas justice system. Recently Texas did disbarred Charles Sebesta for his role in keeping Anthony Graves behind bar for 18 years he withheld favorable evidence and used false testimony to secure a conviction that sent Grave to Death Row.

Totally disgraceful, what Texas did to BOTH these men. That is why i don't believe in the death penalty.

https://www.texastribune.org/2015/06/12/prosecutor-anthony-graves-case-disbarred/
 
910A
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:03 pm

Here is some more information regarding the prosecutor:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...n_charges_corrupt_prosecution.html


http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...eath-row-are-wrongfully-convicted/
Since 1973 144 death-sentenced defendants have been exonerated in the U.S.
The researchers also note that a 4.1 percent rate of false conviction is conservative
 
Maverick623
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 6):
It's not humanly possible to let yourself catch on fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 13):
Quoting itsjustme (Reply 6):
It's not humanly possible to let yourself catch on fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

He's not the only one to set himself ablaze in protest of something or to commit suicide by self incineration. I'm not saying I agree with what Willingham said, I just reported how he rationalized his "cowardly" actions (or, in actions).
 
DDR
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):

KiwiRob I agree with you. I had to write a 15 page paper on this case in a university class. This man was not a nice man by any definition of the word. After reviewing all the evidence, I believe the jury made the right decision. Did you know that while his kids were inside dying, he moved his car away from the house so it would not get burned? I mean really!!!
 
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Aesma
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:27 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):

Kill them all, God will know His own.

Very Catholic.

Quoting DDR (Reply 15):
KiwiRob I agree with you. I had to write a 15 page paper on this case in a university class. This man was not a nice man by any definition of the word. After reviewing all the evidence, I believe the jury made the right decision. Did you know that while his kids were inside dying, he moved his car away from the house so it would not get burned? I mean really!!!

Either he committed a crime or he didn't. Not helping the children might be a crime, I don't know Texas law, but he wasn't convicted of that crime anyway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

Either he committed a crime or he didn't. Not helping the children might be a crime, I don't know Texas law, but he wasn't convicted of that crime anyway.

The thing is the guy was a POS, he let his kids die, putting him to death was the right thing to do. In this case I don't for one second believe they put an innocent man to death, he's probably not guilty of the crime he was convicted of but allowing his children to die like they did when he could have saved them, he got what he deserved.
 
GDB
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:07 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
not guilty of the crime he was convicted of but allowing his children to die like they did when he could have saved them, he got what he deserved

A road down a very slippery slope indeed.
Last I looked, being coward is not a capital offence, not even in the military these days.
(So are you really invoking what was done by the British Army to shell shock victims in WW1 here, IIRC people from your part of the world, did not even agree with that 100 years ago in a world war).
 
Rara
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:40 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
Something doesn't ring true here IMO. He got out with barely a burn on him whilst his daughters perished, as a father I'd die trying to save my kids if in the same situation, they mean everything to me, this guy was a coward, so he gets what he desirved IMO.

This comment beautifully sums up the prevailing attitude of those in favour of death penalty. Who cares if the odd innocent man is killed, chances are it's not a great loss anyway.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 19):
Who cares if the odd innocent man is killed, chances are it's not a great loss anyway.
 
GDB
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:58 pm

I have not got a stupid pic to avoid addressing a point.
However, 'there for the grace of god go I' might be something to consider.
Or common sense and a basic idea of what justice is.
 
sccutler
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:46 pm

While I cannot address the particulars of the case cited at the top, because I haven't researched it myself, I have come around to the way of thinking that it is difficult to support the death penalty, if for no other reason than every now and again, you will inevitably execute an innocent person (or, perhaps, a person whom the state has failed to properly prove guilty which, in our system with its presumption of innocence, amounts to the same thing).

Does the death penalty, in fact, serve as a legitimate deterrent to the commission of crimes? How many criminals, in deciding whether to commit the crime, ask themselves, "self, am I willing to endure the risk of death by lethal injection in exchange for the benefit of committing this crime?" I sincerely doubt it.

So then, you get the moral questions associated with making the decision to extinguish a life.

We are told that, after accounting for the costs of defending automatic appeals and the like, it costs more to put a convicted felon to death than it does to incarcerate them for the balance of their lives.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 15):
This man was not a nice man by any definition of the word.

So now we execute people for not being nice? Rick Perry said basically the same thing when asked why he didn't stay the execution after receiving compelling statements from renowned experts on arson investigation that the Willingham fire was accidental. His response was, "This was a very bad man." Pathetic.

Quoting DDR (Reply 15):
I had to write a 15 page paper on this case in a university class.

Having done, what I am sure was exhausting research to write your paper, I would think you'd be outraged over the injustice that was carried out. I wrote my opening post shortly after viewing the Frontline documentary which, apparently, was an update to a previous segment. I probably didn't have a fraction of the knowledge you did when writing your paper yet seeing and hearing the ignorance of the people involved in allowing the execution to be carried out made my blood boil.

Quoting DDR (Reply 15):
After reviewing all the evidence, I believe the jury made the right decision.

Based on the evidence they were given, I, too believe the jury made the correct decision. The problem is, the "evidence" was found to be either falsified (the coached testimony of Willingham's cellmate) or simply wrong due to poor investigative technique and outdated technology.

Quoting DDR (Reply 15):
Did you know that while his kids were inside dying, he moved his car away from the house so it would not get burned? I mean really!!!

I'm not condoning Willingham's actions or in-actions. But, people do some strange things when in a state of shock or panic. Maybe he was afraid the car would catch fire and explode; I don't know. But, again, he wasn't charged and executed because he moved his car, or because he beat his wife, or because he didn't react the way he should have while his kids were being burned to death or for being the pos he was. He was executed not only for something he didn't do, but for a crime (arson) that never occurred.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 21):
Or common sense and a basic idea of what justice is.

His daughters got the justice they deserved.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 23):
I'm not condoning Willingham's actions or in-actions. But, people do some strange things when in a state of shock or panic. Maybe he was afraid the car would catch fire and explode; I don't know. But, again, he wasn't charged and executed because he moved his car, or because he beat his wife, or because he didn't react the way he should have while his kids were being burned to death or for being the pos he was. He was executed not only for something he didn't do, but for a crime (arson) that never occurred.

His very actions are exactly why he was executed, they are not the actions of a caring parent, they stink of the actions of a parent who wanted his kids dead.

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
That sentence was carried out on February 17, 2004. However, three months prior to his execution, several arson experts, a few of them holding PhD's in the science of arson investigation, came forward and disputed the findings of the sole firefighter who titled the fire at the Willingham home an arson over a decade earlier.

From reading up on this there were two fire investigators, Douglas Fogg and Manuel Vasquez, Vasquez had investigated over 1200 arsons, they were both experts, what makes the new experts any more accurate than the original experts who actually had access to the site, the other experts were investigating based on photos, it's not the same as actually being on the scene.

Sorry but the just stinks of a beat up on a death sentence case done by people with an anti death sentence agenda.
 
GDB
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
His daughters got the justice they deserved.

Are you about to don your Superman outfit?
Have YOU ever been in a similar situation?
As the answer will be very likely, as with most people, 'no', you have no idea how you would have reacted.
Thinking how you hope you would react is not the same thing.
You no more know than I or anyone else.
Unless you are in some Walter Mitty world of your own.

The overwhelming parental instinct of course is to do anything to try and save your children, we've all heard of fires on the news when one goes back in and also never comes out.
We also hear of those who tried but were physically beaten back by smoke or flames.
Then there are others also distraught who just scream in despair.

IF, and it is an 'if' the aspects of the case, such as how he drove his car away to protect are true, whatever we think about that, was it part of a deliberate plan to murder by fire?
Did he start the blaze with the intention of murder?
If yes, as much as I oppose Capital Punishment if you do that in a state where it still exists then you must expect to face that.
But he did not, therefore he is not a murderer, therefore he was murdered by the State of Texas.

For all you in favour of it, cases like this undermine it and make the day it is gone in all US States that bit closer.
Clear cases of injustice undermined it the UK too in the 1950's and early 60's.
If you think that will never happen, well it's not been much more than a decade since GWB in part won in 2004 by hitting hard against the idea of gay marriage.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:37 pm

Put it this way GDB, he's dead, I'm glad he's dead, another monster gone.

The problem with the death penalty in the US is they let them linger to long, there needs to be a concrete time limit then lights out. It's just not efficient enough.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):

your suggested viewing couldn't be more one sided. historically the pbs show is one sided, for the recorded.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
Something doesn't ring true here IMO. He got out with barely a burn on him whilst his daughters perished, as a father I'd die trying to save my kids if in the same situation, they mean everything to me, this guy was a coward, so he gets what he desirved IMO.

  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

Gives a lot more info that the one sided 'Frontline' short.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
Put it this way GDB, he's dead, I'm glad he's dead, another monster gone.

Amen.

[Edited 2015-06-28 01:26:12 by ManuCH]
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
His very actions are exactly why he was executed, they are not the actions of a caring parent, they stink of the actions of a parent who wanted his kids dead.

You say you've read up on this story. What in Willingham's history provides a motive for him "wanting his kids dead?" Everyone who knew him said he loved his kids. Even his ex wife said he'd never harmed the kids and she couldn't fathom him murdering them. There was no monetary motive as the $15,000 life insurance policy taken out in the kid's names was done so by a grandfather and he was the sole beneficiary.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
From reading up on this there were two fire investigators, Douglas Fogg and Manuel Vasquez, Vasquez had investigated over 1200 arsons, they were both experts, what makes the new experts any more accurate than the original experts who actually had access to the site, the other experts were investigating based on photos, it's not the same as actually being on the scene.

First, I want to make sure you know what makes someone an "expert." It simply means they have "special skill or knowledge in a particular field." That being said, I think you'll agree that it's feasible there are different levels of "experts" in various fields. You said Vasquez had investigated over 1200 arsons but that's incorrect. Vasquez testified he had investigated between 1200-1500 fires and had determined "most all of them were arson." Yet, according to the Texas State Fire Marshall's Office, that was an "oddly high estimate as typically only about half of the fires investigated are found to be arson." Don't you think it's odd that this "expert" in arson investigation found that nearly every fire he investigated was determined to be arson? As to your point that the two original investigators, Fogg and Vasquez actually had access to the site, whereas the subsequent investigators only had photos to rely on, this is also incorrect. The two lead investigators who contested the findings of Fogg and Vasquez actually used Fogg's and Vasquez shoddy investigation against them without ever having to visit the scene of the "arson." John Lentini and Dr. Gerald Hurst, both recognized as being in the top of their field as arson investigators examined the "20 arson indicators" documented by Fogg and Vasquez and were able to discount each and every one of them. For example, according to Fogg and Vasquez’s theory of the crime, Willingham had poured accelerant throughout the children’s bedroom and down the hallway. Officials at the scene had tested extensively in those areas—including where all the areas identified by Fogg and Vasquez as "pour patterns" were—and turned up nothing. It's impossible for a pour pattern to exist without existence of an accelerant. Another example of the ineptness of Fogg and Vasquez was their identifying the front porch as being not only another area where a "pour pattern" existed but that also tested positive for an accelerant; specifically charcoal lighter fluid. They also found remnants of a container that once held charcoal lighter fluid laying near the front door. Surmising Willingham had used it to start the fire inside the home and then discarded the container once he exited the home, they called this their "smoking gun." Scanning the files for clues, Dr. Hurst found a photograph of the porch taken before the fire, which had been entered into evidence. Sitting on the tiny porch was a charcoal grill. The porch was where the family barbecued. Court testimony from witnesses confirmed that there had been a grill, along with a container of lighter fluid, and that both had burned when the fire roared onto the porch during post-flashover. By the time Vasquez and Fogg inspected the house (four days after the fire occurred), the grill had been removed from the porch. In other words, their "smoking gun" evidence was easily explained. All one of these two arson "experts" had to do was either listen to the testimony given by witnesses who clearly stated a grill and charcoal lighter were kept on the porch or do as Hurst had done and look at a picture of the front porch taken prior to the fire.

You apparently have your mind made up that Willingham deserved to die because he was a bad person but I'll still suggest that you or anyone else interested in this case read this excellent article from "The New Yorker." It's six years old but it's very well written and, just like the Frontline documentary, shows what a travesty of justice occurred in this case.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 28):
You say you've read up on this story. What in Willingham's history provides a motive for him "wanting his kids dead?" Everyone who knew him said he loved his kids. Even his ex wife said he'd never harmed the kids and she couldn't fathom him murdering them. There was no monetary motive as the $15,000 life insurance policy taken out in the kid's names was done so by a grandfather and he was the sole beneficiary.

In the entire history of a killer saying they didn't do it he is the exception? Who cares about monetary gain when your a psycho? Read the above linked wiki link and Rick Perry is barely a step above George Bush on the intelligence scale. He was on death row since 1994, why didn't Dubya commute the sentence?
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 27):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

Gives a lot more info that the one sided 'Frontline' short.

Did you actually read the wikipedia article? All it does is confirm everything reported by (and then some) the Frontline documentary and subsequent articles on the Willingham case. For example, the Wiki article you quoted states, "An August 2009 Chicago Tribune investigative article concluded: "Over the past five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by nine of the nation's top fire scientists – first for the Tribune, then for the Innocence Project, and now for the commission. All concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify the determination of arson. The only other evidence of significance against Willingham was twice-recanted testimony by another inmate who testified that Willingham had confessed to him. Jailhouse snitches are viewed with skepticism in the justice system, so much so that some jurisdictions have restrictions against their use." To recap, nine of the nation's top fire scientists concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify their determination of arson. The Wiki report also states, "A four-person panel of the Texas Forensic Science Commission investigating evidence of arson presented in the case acknowledged on July 23, 2010, that state and local arson investigators used "flawed science" in determining the blaze had been deliberately set." The Wiki article talks of Willingham's odd or suspicious behavior and alleged statements made shortly after the fire occurred. All of which were covered in the Frontline report. So what? Are you suggesting it's OK for us to kill someone just because they exhibit odd behavior after the tragic death of their three children?
 
AR385
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 25):
IF, and it is an 'if' the aspects of the case, such as how he drove his car away to protect are true, whatever we think about that, was it part of a deliberate plan to murder by fire?

I would think that if you are going to deliberately start a fire, you´d move your car FIRST. then go and start the flames.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 29):
n the entire history of a killer saying they didn't do it he is the exception? Who cares about monetary gain when your a psycho? Read the above linked wiki link and Rick Perry is barely a step above George Bush on the intelligence scale. He was on death row since 1994, why didn't Dubya commute the sentence?

In my tenure as a cop, I've heard plenty of killers and other criminals say, "I didn't do it" or, "Musta been some other guy," or "Musta been some other dude look like me." And yeah, probably 9 out of 10 times they're lying. So what? Are you saying that out of every 10 times we kill someone, as long as we get it right nine of those times, that's acceptable? What if you happen to be that tenth person? I'm guessing your glib attitude would be a tad different.

I'll ask you again, did you actually read the Wiki article you linked? It reinforces everything Frontline, the Chicago Tribune, The New Yorker magazine, and a few others have stated about the "flawed case." Texas executed a man who was not only innocent of a crime he was said to have committed, but he was executed for a crime that never even occurred. This wasn't even a case of mistaken identity or Willingham being present while a capital crime was being committed. Aside from an innocent man being put to death, what makes this case even more preposterous is the fact that a man was put to death for a crime that never happened. Was Willingham a Saint? Nope. Was he convicted and executed because he wasn't a Saint? Nope. Was Willingham a wife beater? Yep. Was he convicted and executed because he was a wife beater? Nope. Was Willingham an arsonist who killed his three young kids? According to all nine of the nation's top experts in arson investigation asked to review the case, nope. The fire wasn't arson. Was Willingham convicted and executed for a crime that never occurred? Yep.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 30):

Wiki was a joke when I posted it I guess you couldn't gather. The case wen to the US Supreme Court and they denied to overtone. The "fire science" and your top however many investigators were wrong. It was chronicled in an officially report. The "Front Line" report on PBS made no mention of any outside state appeals.

http://www.fsc.state.tx.us/documents/FINAL.pdf
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 32):
Was Willingham convicted and executed for a crime that never occurred? Yep.

Nobody can be 100% certain he wasn't a triple murderer either.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
Nobody can be 100% certain he wasn't a triple murderer either.

You're obviously not familiar with the "Reasonable Doubt" standard in the U.S.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:57 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 35):

You're obviously not familiar with the "Reasonable Doubt" standard in the U.S.

Still don't care, he's dead just like his kids, if he hadn't let them die then none of this would have happened.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 33):
Wiki was a joke when I posted it
Quoting fxramper (Reply 27):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

Gives a lot more info that the one sided 'Frontline' short.

Yeah, right. Your Wiki link didn't become a "joke" until I pointed out that it only reinforced everything Frontline, New Yorker, The Chicago Tribune, and basically every other publication that's investigated the killing of an innocent person has said: Texas got it wrong.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 33):
The case wen to the US Supreme Court and they denied to overtone.

I'll assume you meant to write "overturn" (spell check is a wonderful thing) but, again you're wrong. The US Supreme Court didn't deny to overturn anything. The declined to hear the case. World of difference.
 
Rara
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
Nobody can be 100% certain he wasn't a triple murderer either.

Nobody can be 100% certain that YOU aren't a triple murderer either.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
itsjustme
Topic Author
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Still don't care, he's dead just like his kids, if he hadn't let them die then none of this would have happened.

Well now you're just being ridiculous and no longer worth debating. The last word is yours. Go crazy.
 
GDB
Posts: 13667
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:08 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
The problem with the death penalty in the US is they let them linger to long, there needs to be a concrete time limit then lights out. It's just not efficient enough.


Yes, much better in say Iran, China, or even DPRK - get the AA cannon out.
The problem with it is that we now know that in the US dozens over the just past two decades alone have been murdered by the state after very unsatisfactory trials, as well as others on death row then released after new evidence has proved them innocent, presumably they should have been more efficiently done away with too?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31):
I would think that if you are going to deliberately start a fire, you´d move your car FIRST. then go and start the flames

Quite.

Quoting Rara (Reply 38):
Nobody can be 100% certain that YOU aren't a triple murderer either.

Anyone who gets off of executions and thinks it's fine to execute even if the defendant has not murdered anyone has a bit of a screw loose.
Who should not ever be allowed near a jury even for so much as a more minor criminal case since they have no understanding of the basic concept of justice, whatever you think of the death penalty.
 
Redd
Posts: 1232
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
If the witness statements are correct, then the father wasn't much of a dad.

And that is justification to be punishable by death in your opinion? You and Rick Perry would make great pals.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):
The thing is the guy was a POS, he let his kids die, putting him to death was the right thing to do.

Being a POS is not a crime punishable by death. If he's innocent of the crime he was accused of the man should have never been executed.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 24):
o recap, nine of the nation's top fire scientists concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify their determination of arson.

Folklore is hard evidence it seems....... Who needs knowledge or facts?
 
GDB
Posts: 13667
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:01 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 35):
Folklore is hard evidence it seems....... Who needs knowledge or facts?

Well Perry likes folklore, witness his response to a drought in his state a few years ago, pray for rain.
Small wonder his state became the epicentre of US injustice with that level of logic.

A veteran observer of the TX political scene once remarked the only creatures dumber than many members of the legislature needed watering twice a day.
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 5):
That is why i don't believe in the death penalty.

Sums it all up in one sentence.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6165
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:51 am

Quoting Redd (Reply 35):
Folklore is hard evidence it seems....... Who needs knowledge or facts?

Indeed, I'm surprised the ducking stool hasn't been reintroduced as a legal method of establishing guilt yet...
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:28 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 32):
Nobody can be 100% certain that YOU aren't a triple murderer either.

So far my telly of dead bodies is zero.

I don't believe the death penalty is a deterant at all, what the death penalty is for IMO is revenge, if someone kills my kids I'd want them dead, I can't do it myself but if I lived in the US and some other countries there is a pretty good chance the state will do that for me.

Why should a murderer be kept alive at the taxpayers expense, dispatching them quickly and efficiently is better for everyone concerned.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 39):
Why should a murderer be kept alive at the taxpayers expense, dispatching them quickly and efficiently is better for everyone concerned.

That's not the same as killing someone wrongly convicted of murder. If it's ok for the state to kill someone just because they may not be a nice person, why not just take a gun and start shooting? You seem very sure that he let his children die, but you have no way of knowing that he ever had the chance to save them.

I suppose that even if it was impossible for him to save his kids, that he still deserved to die, regardless of whether or not he started the fire.

Should every parent who can't save their child from death, be put to death? There are probably thousands of cases where parents couldn't make their way through flames to save their child...should they also be put to death?

You are certainly entitled to your opinions but they seem more appropriate for Saudi Arabia than any supposedly civilized country.

I reckon you should just take your gun and start shooting people at random. Some of them must be guilty of something, and if they aren't, it's ok to kill a few innocents if the occasional guilty person is killed.
What the...?
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
Something doesn't ring true here IMO. He got out with barely a burn on him whilst his daughters perished, as a father I'd die trying to save my kids if in the same situation, they mean everything to me, this guy was a coward, so he gets what he desirved IMO.

If the witness statements are correct, then the father wasn't much of a dad.

So cowardliness is punishable by death?! Killers only deserve the death penalty, it's that simple, even here in the US a lot of murderers get away with a life sentence sometimes with a chance of parole.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5840
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 36):
Small wonder his state became the epicentre of US injustice with that level of logic.

"The epicentre of US injustice?"
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Max Q
Posts: 8254
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Texas Knowingly Executed An Innocent Man

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:40 am

He may have been too busy studying the three branches of government to worry about it..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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