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Francoflier
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France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:51 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33267581

The struggle continues for Uber around the World, this time with a French twist.
After Germany and Italy, France's Interior Ministry is calling for an end to UberPOP in the country following some rather violent unrest by the taxi driver community.

I am, once again, outraged at this. Not only taxi drivers have been wreaking havoc in the streets like a bunch of violent thugs, they are being humored by a government that's helping them destroy the competition.
It's not bad enough that they are often rude, try to extort tourists and protect their turfs like the mafia, the government is now helping them digging their trench deeper.

This is exactly like what the music and video industry did after the coming of age of the internet. Rather than prepare and adapt to the competition, they lean on the government to do the dirty work for them.

Yes, they do have to pay exorbitant fees for a license and there are insurance grey areas, but it is no reason to artificially protect a way of life that is outdated and dying and refuses to adapt, at the expense of consumers.

They will now probably try to shut down the server.
Hopefully, they can find a server outside of French jurisdiction and continue operating, as physically enforcing ride sharing is quasi impossible anyway.

/rant...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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mad99
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:52 am

I've got to side with taxi drivers on this. They have to pay licences pass tests etc and all this gets undermined by Uber.

Do you get a receipt using Uber?

Uber is probably a good service in areas that can't sustain a proper taxi service due to demand.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 1):
I've got to side with taxi drivers on this. They have to pay licences pass tests etc and all this gets undermined by Uber.

     
I am not 100% certain about france, but I don't think anyone is preventing Uber from starting a Taxi service in France

Uber's complains are just like the Medellín Cartel complaining that selling cocain isn't legal...

Best regards
Thomas
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aloges
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 1):
I've got to side with taxi drivers on this. They have to pay licences pass tests etc and all this gets undermined by Uber.

   You get qualified, pay for the required insurances and licences and play by the rules to keep the licences. All of this costs money and revenue. And then some people on a different continent go "Hey, all of that is just a load of rubbish! Anyone with a car can drive other people around and we can make a load of money off them!" after they (believe to) have found a legal loophole. I too would be at least annoyed.

[Edited 2015-06-26 02:03:02]
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CPH-R
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:53 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 1):
I've got to side with taxi drivers on this. They have to pay licences pass tests etc and all this gets undermined by Uber.

Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between Uber and the shady guy offering you a lift home from a night out at 4 in the morning in exchange for "gas money", is that the former has a slick interface.
 
Elite
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between Uber and the shady guy offering you a lift home from a night out at 4 in the morning in exchange for "gas money", is that the former has a slick interface.

Varies hugely from location to location and service to service, if you select the Uber Black instead of UberX, for example. Uber Black usually hails a professional driver in a very nice car (Mercedes S-class).

I've never had a good experience with French cabbies. But regardless of the debate, can anyone side with their behavior?
 
offloaded
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:03 am

And what happens when someone driving their Uber "friend" gets in an accident? Did they advise their insurance company that they are driving people around on what is actually a commercial basis? I doubt it. Insurance companies love to get out of claims.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
aloges
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:06 am

Quoting elite (Reply 5):
But regardless of the debate, can anyone side with their behavior?

It's the French way to do things. Truckers, farmers, taxi drivers and surely others as well aren't known to keep their protests quiet.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Elite
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:08 am

There's a reason why Uber and so many copycat apps are so successful - the demand is there! It fills a market demand that the current existing model doesn't fulfill. And its great for the consumer, who is given more choice. Are there more regulations that are needed? Sure, and there are a lot of things to be figured out, from driver screening to insurance, but the appropriate solution isn't to simply ban these apps, that would be ignoring the demands of the consumers, who have spoken loudly and clearly.
 
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mad99
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:24 am

Quoting elite (Reply 5):
can anyone side with their behavior?

no, not the behaviour but being cheated yes

Quoting offloaded (Reply 6):
Uber "friend" gets in an accident?

I believe they do have some type on insurance through Uber.

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
the demand is there!

Because its cheaper than a taxi by not being a taxi.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:26 am

Quoting elite (Reply 5):
Uber Black instead

The Uber limosine service is afaik fully licensed and doesn't have legal problems.

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
- the demand is there!

There is also a demand for cheap TVs, that doesn't mean that can start TV Pop and charge an agency commission from thief's that steal and sell them for cheap.

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
Sure, and there are a lot of things to be figured out, from driver screening to insurance, but the appropriate solution isn't to simply ban these apps, that would be ignoring the demands of the consumers, who have spoken loudly and clearly.

It's all figured out and on the books. The only problem is that Uber somehow thinks they are above the law.

Best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2015-06-26 02:26:49]
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aloges
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
It fills a market demand that the current existing model doesn't fulfill.

a) It's simply cheaper for the customer - just like a minicab.
b) Ignoring legal standards and stretching whatever loophole(s) you've found beyond recognition to accommodate the aggressive growth of your exploitative business is hardly ingenious. It just means you're a bigger bastard than the other guys.

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
the appropriate solution isn't to simply ban these apps

If they're found to be in violation of existing laws, that is indeed the thing to do.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 11):
If they're found to be in violation of existing laws, that is indeed the thing to do.

I wish there would be jail time for managment involved. Those vultures only exist because the worst case is pretty much limited to less profit.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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mad99
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:49 am

if i'm bored on the way to the airport i ask the taxi driver what they think of Uber!!

Uber (or similar) might have a place in a small village that can't sustain a taxi.
 
Mir
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting francoflier (Thread starter):
Yes, they do have to pay exorbitant fees for a license and there are insurance grey areas, but it is no reason to artificially protect a way of life that is outdated and dying and refuses to adapt, at the expense of consumers.

The drivers didn't choose that way of life. They were never offered a choice to pay lots of money for a license or not - if they wanted to be a taxi driver, they had to do it. It was the cost of doing business. So they're more than justified in getting upset about someone else deciding that they can run the same sort of business they do but ignore the startup requirements they were legally obligated to shell out, and thus gain a competitive advantage by not following the rules.

-Mir
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teme82
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:16 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 1):

Do you get a receipt using Uber?

Yes you do. In your e-mail. No VAT's in it tho. And I bet that the drivers don't pay taxes either for the income from Uber...
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scbriml
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:17 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
The drivers didn't choose that way of life.

Except they all made a conscious decision to become taxi drivers, knowing exactly what the requirements were.   

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
So they're more than justified in getting upset about someone else deciding that they can run the same sort of business they do but ignore the startup requirements they were legally obligated to shell out, and thus gain a competitive advantage by not following the rules.

They may be justified in being upset, but nothing excuses their outrageous actions. With regard to following the rules, I've yet to meet a taxi driver that isn't prepared to ignore the rules when it suits them (e.g. an off-metre fare).
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mad99
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting teme82 (Reply 15):
Yes you do. In your e-mail. No VAT's in it tho. And I bet that the drivers don't pay taxes either for the income from Uber.

How do you pay? Can you pay with cash?
I'm sure the drivers report any earnings  
Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
knowing exactly what the requirements were

Exactly and now you have Uber that doesn't follow these rules.

Most taxis here in Madrid have some sort of protection between the driver and back seat, i would think driving drunk strangers around for money in our own car would not be fun.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
With regard to following the rules, I've yet to meet a taxi driver that isn't prepared to ignore the rules when it suits them (e.g. an off-metre fare).

off-fare trips in his Taxi area in Germany means that you don't have to pay him at all. Pretty cheap.....

Best regards
Thomas
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Dano1977
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 1):
They have to pay licences pass tests etc and all this gets undermined by Uber.

I was many years ago, an investor in a taxi company here in the UK.

Insurance costs were up to £900 per vehicle (depending on vehicle. Our VW Caravelle was in the £1500 range)

Every vehicle had to be licensed.

Every Year
Each vehicle licence £200
Plate Fee £38.20
Driver Licence £82.50
Local Authority Car test £90* (Check mechanical and cosmestic condition of vehicle)

*It didn't matter if the car was straight off the showroom floor or 3 years old, It needed this test at a nominated council garage for a licence to be issued.


So before you even start turning a profit, There is £1300 in fee's that need to be paid out.

Plus we were subject to random local authority checks - Any discrepancies in paperwork or condition of vehicle would result in a loss.

Each driver needed to be Criminal record checked every 3 years.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting francoflier (Thread starter):
I am, once again, outraged at this.

As am I. You're practically the only one here who allows that those who earn their own money know best how to spend their own money.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 1):
Uber is probably a good service in areas that can't sustain a proper taxi service due to demand.

Are you living on a different planet?

Uber is a great service everywhere, wildly popular with consumers. Hence the problem for the monopolistic taxi union.

Is it ok if I use the money I worked for to decide for myself which service I want to pay for?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 2):
Uber's complains are just like the Medellín Cartel complaining that selling cocain isn't legal..

Yes, offering cheaper rides managed in a vastly more efficient way for the consumer is exactly equivalent to selling illegal drugs that can kill you.

Cab drivers can be alright but they also often suck. Uber drivers are great in the dozen or more countries where I've used them. Don't have to go to a cabstand, don't have to know you're address, don't have to have cash or a credit card: Uber is wonderful.

Quoting aloges (Reply 3):
pay for the required insurances and licences and play by the rules to keep the licence

Let them get a job with Uber and let the public decide which they prefer. All the licenses never prevented me from having rude, unhelpful, over-charging cab drivers in Paris. Or other cities.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between Uber and the shady guy offering you a lift home from a night out at 4 in the morning in exchange for "gas money",

Good for you! Don't use Uber then!

Will you kindly continue to overpay and dutifully walk to the taxi rank while the rest of us choose our own transport options????

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 12):
Those vultures

Vultures = providing a highly popular service at a cheaper cost that the public very much loves.




Pu.
 
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scbriml
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 18):
off-fare trips in his Taxi area in Germany means that you don't have to pay him at all.

Again, that's a rule (and is the same in several countries I've visited) that the taxi driver is happy to ignore if his customer agrees an off-metre fare for a journey. It's different to a situation where the driver neglects to start the metre in a deliberate attempt to rip off the customer.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 19):
uoting mad99 (Reply 1):
They have to pay licences pass tests etc and all this gets undermined by Uber.

I was many years ago, an investor in a taxi company here in the UK.

Insurance costs were up to £900 per vehicle (depending on vehicle. Our VW Caravelle was in the £1500 range)

Every vehicle had to be licensed.

Every Year
Each vehicle licence £200
Plate Fee £38.20
Driver Licence £82.50
Local Authority Car test £90* (Check mechanical and cosmestic condition of vehicle)

*It didn't matter if the car was straight off the showroom floor or 3 years old, It needed this test at a nominated council garage for a licence to be issued.


So before you even start turning a profit, There is £1300 in fee's that need to be paid out.

Plus we were subject to random local authority checks - Any discrepancies in paperwork or condition of vehicle would result in a loss.

Each driver needed to be Criminal record checked every 3 years.

In the UK at least, all the above apply, when carrying passengers for "hire or reward" Drivers working via Uber have to comply.
 
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larshjort
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 20):
Yes, offering cheaper rides managed in a vastly more efficient way for the consumer is exactly equivalent to selling illegal drugs that can kill you.

WHO is paying if somebody dies in a crash? My Insurance certainly won't pay if I was running an illigal taxi scheme. which is what Uber is. I agree with the principle in Uber, but the way it is done with unlicensed drivers driving in cars that may or may not be insured is not the right way to do it.

/Lars
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 23):
WHO is paying if somebody dies in a crash? My Insurance

Uber requires or provides (depending on local rules) insurance that covers the damage their drivers may do while on the job, including kill someone.

Next objection?
 
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mad99
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 20):
Are you living on a different planet?

nope
I don't think we have Uber in Madrid

Quoting pu (Reply 20):
Is it ok if I use the money I worked for to decide for myself which service I want to pay for?

As long as you don't take my money when your Uber taxi crashes and is not covered.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 20):
Yes, offering cheaper rides managed in a vastly more efficient way for the consumer is exactly equivalent to selling illegal drugs that can kill you.

Yes, exactly. Offering cheaper fares by circumventing quality and safety standards for commercial people transport is exactly that. Cocain doesn't kill you if sourced in good quality and properly used, but it is still illegal for various reasons. Uber POP is the same: breaking the law and put lives in danger for profit.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 26):
the law and put lives in danger for profit.

1. how exactly does uber put lives in danger? Is this hypothetical or objective?

2. Is there any possible transaction in life where you will not insist you personally and the government know better than the rest of us?

3. You honestly think that 10s of millions of us who use the massively rewarding uber system and are thankful to be rid of taxis are incapable of deciding what is and is not a safe ride, but you are?

.
.
.
Typical taxi ride in Hamburg, Paris or New York: flag down taxi or have difficulty finding one outside of main roads. Get in and the driver does not speak the local language. Often a taxi cannot be found at all. Taxi smells of cigarettes, incense. After calling his hq to figure out where he's going, the ride is a high speed ride of terror with an unresponsive driver. The route is mysterious. The meter says its 40 euros for a 20 minute ride, cash expected. A nightmare.

Tyical uber ride in Germany, France or America: uber driver arrives within a couple minutes anywhere I'm at. The driver is a coherent and well spoken bored housewife or student in a new, clean, comfortable car. The route we take is predetermined and delivered to my phone. They are technologically hip and expect no payment at the end of the journey. I get an email saying it was 20 euro for a 20 minute ride. A true pleasure.

You choose your ride and let the rest of us choose ours.




Pu.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting teme82 (Reply 15):
And I bet that the drivers don't pay taxes either for the income from Uber...

Uber drivers absolutely pay taxes for their Uber income. Though some I know of have deducted their earnings to a net 0. Not sure how it is overseas, but drivers are treated as independent contractors. Though that may change coming up with the California court decisions.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 17):
How do you pay? Can you pay with cash?
I'm sure the drivers report any earnings

It automatically charges a credit card, google wallet, or apple pay when you order. You can tip with cash, which I recommend since there is no tipping mechanism in the app.

Quoting larshjort (Reply 23):
WHO is paying if somebody dies in a crash?

Uber has an insurance that covers riders in any circumstance. Deaths in the other cars involved should be covered as well, but there has been some legal battles involving this type of thing.

Quoting larshjort (Reply 23):
I agree with the principle in Uber, but the way it is done with unlicensed drivers driving in cars that may or may not be insured is not the right way to do it.

You cannot sign up with Uber unless you have proper registration, valid licensing, or current personal insurance. Now Your insurance company will likely dump you if they figure out that you are driving for Uber, and that has also caused companies to start offering a "rideshare" insurance plan.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 26):
Offering cheaper fares by circumventing quality and safety standards for commercial people transport is exactly that.

Quality is far better in every Uber that I have ever been in versus taxis. Cheaper fares are a product of a different earning models than traditional cabs. I don't agree that Uber should be able to circumvent the law, but to think Uber is wholly unsafe is a silly notion. Then there is the whole part where Uber, Lyft, Sidecar, etc... Have measurably affected the number of drinking and driving instances in the US.
 
Mir
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Except they all made a conscious decision to become taxi drivers, knowing exactly what the requirements were.

Would they have paid all that money to follow the proper licensing requirements if there was the option not to? They had no choice in the matter, and now they're being undercut by people who don't feel like they have to follow the rules, and they're rightfully pissed about it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MaverickM11
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
There's a reason why Uber and so many copycat apps are so successful - the demand is there! It fills a market demand that the current existing model doesn't fulfill. And its great for the consumer, who is given more choice.

   This reminds me a lot of the ME3 v US3 debate...almost all the same arguments apply. "Compete and improve your product!"

Quoting pu (Reply 20):
Uber is a great service everywhere, wildly popular with consumers. Hence the problem for the monopolistic taxi union.

   ...and in a large number of cases, taxis are *terrible* with ridiculous regulations and costs that Uber doesn't face...not my problem as a passenger.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Mir
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):
...and in a large number of cases, taxis are *terrible* with ridiculous regulations and costs that Uber doesn't face...not my problem as a passenger.

Then fix the regulations. Don't force the taxi drivers to just accept that now they're out a significant amount of money because they played by the rules. If governments are going to mandate high license fees as a barrier to entry into a market, they have an obligation to protect those that pay them and ensure they're able to recoup that money without unfair competition.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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teme82
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 17):
How do you pay? Can you pay with cash?
I'm sure the drivers report any earnings

Uber charges your credit card. Then takes 20% to them selves and the rest is paid for the driver. Now from that the should pay all the taxes and expenses. For example 20€ Uber ride the driver would have to pay 10% of VAT in here, insurance costs, fuel and finally income tax to the government. So in the end the driver will have around 4€ in his pocket. At least in here in Finland.
Flying high and low
 
PhilBy
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting elite (Reply 5):
I've never had a good experience with French cabbies. But regardless of the debate, can anyone side with their behavior?

Any French trade unionist!!!!

Quoting elite (Reply 8):
but the appropriate solution isn't to simply ban these apps

They should be licensed as a class of taxi. In some countries anyone offering transport for profit is required to do so.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 15):
And I bet that the drivers don't pay taxes either for the income from Uber...

Let's have revenue services demanding Uber accounts to check whether the income has been declared. A few big fines would soon sort that out.

Quoting pu (Reply 20):
Vultures = providing a highly popular service at a cheaper cost that the public very much loves.

Given the forum that we have here - imagine if GA pilots start offering to take passengers for a fee without being licensed as a public airline. On this forum, would we see the same level of support for amateur pilots running an air-taxi service as we see for Uber?

I suspect not!
 
canoecarrier
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:11 pm

I'd have more sympathy for the taxi drivers if they weren't operating on such an archaic business model. I don't know how well Uber runs in other parts of the world, but here for fun I downloaded 3 apps to see how long it would take for me to get a cab:

Uber: 5 min
Lyft: 8 min
Flywheel (cab app): 21 minutes

Taxis here still use a manual credit card imprinter, meaning they have to physically make a carbon copy for you to sign. I get grief from the driver every time I pay with a credit card. Uber has your information on file and emails you a receipt the second the ride is over. Taxi companies here didn't even develop a mobile app until well after Uber was established and they were losing tons of business.

Is Uber a predatory company? Sure, but they are responding to market demand. And, as in many other industries regulations are well behind the technology.

Also, using UberX I've always got a driver with a new or almost new clean car. One driver told me they get special discounts through Uber to buy new cars, and as others mentioned the Uber Black or Uber XL drivers show up in towncars or SUVs.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
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teme82
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 33):
Let's have revenue services demanding Uber accounts to check whether the income has been declared. A few big fines would soon sort that out.

Well that would be nice. Not for the poor drivers who are paying the fines.
Flying high and low
 
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
Then fix the regulations. Don't force the taxi drivers to just accept that now they're out a significant amount of money because they played by the rules. If governments are going to mandate high license fees as a barrier to entry into a market, they have an obligation to protect those that pay them and ensure they're able to recoup that money without unfair competition.

Your empathy for the cab drivers is admirable. I'm with you to some extent. Your argument is simply that it is unfair to those taxi drivers who did what they were told. Your argument is not the ridiculous "uber is unsafe" and "uber is equivalent to a murdering drug cartel," which I appreciate. However, it's not quite that these Paris taxi drivers are hard working average guys trying to make a living. It's more like (in American terms) they are the old phone company when there was only one phone company: you either use them or use nothing.

Getting a taxi medallion in NYC was upwards of 20 grand last time I checked. It's a rigged system controlled by a handful of wealthy guys who hire immigrants who just fell off the boat to do the dirty work. This has to go.

In Paris and London it isn't quite that bad but the system is nevertheless controlled mainly to keep taxis in short supply so prices can stay high. Uber is MUCH MORE open to those with a spirit of work who want to begin making money than playing the corrupt taxi driver licensing game.

Just curious why are taxi drivers, a few thousand people at most, held in such high esteem versus the needs and wants of 10s of millions of uber customers? And what about uber drivers: can't they be given some value here?

...and as mentioned it REALLY HELPS curb drunk driving. I press a button on my phone and uber is there is 3 minutes, no address, no cash needed.....
Quoting PhilBy (Reply 33):
Given the forum that we have here - imagine if GA pilots start offering to take passengers for a fee without being licensed as a public airline. On this forum, would we see the same level of support for amateur pilots running an air-taxi service as we see for Uber?

Judging by this thread it seems most of the pointy-head EUropeans are against uber ... but anyway your analogy is not quite correct. It would be correct if private aviation pilots with clean records and full insurance started an internet app that connected those 1-3 people who want to fly on small Cessna's to the pilots and owners of small Cessnas who could fly them. Nothing wrong with that.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 33):
Let's have revenue service

The EUrocrats on this thread would react to a Google startup by saying, "We can't have this! It's dangerous! It will cost lives! It is unlicensed! People will be able to read dangerous things, look at the Nazi flag, search for child pornography and worst of all by pass the government provided libraries and licensed book stores that already do a MUCH better job than Google ever could giving access to information. What about all those librarians and professors and book publishers who trained for years to keep knowledge under control????

one reason why there is no European Facebook, Twitter, instagram, Google, McDonald's, Marriott, Starbucks, Nike, etc. is seen right here on this thread: Never mind giving the ignorant masses what they want to buy with their own money, We Shall Govern and Tax and Regulate untill there is no innovation in Europe ever again.....

Most of these anti-uber guys have never stepped foot in uber: they are governing the rest of us from their imagination of what things are like.....Thank God they're here to save us from the horrid, unsafe, but licensed, fully insured drivers at uber who are daily killing people with their cheap and efficient service....




Pu.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11125
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 27):

1. how exactly does uber put lives in danger? Is this hypothetical or objective?

stricter checks re required for taxis for a reason. Just like an Airline operates under different rules than a private plane.

Quoting pu (Reply 27):

2. Is there any possible transaction in life where you will not insist you personally and the government know better than the rest of us?

You can hop.in any car you like, even in any illegal taxi you like. I leave that to your judgement. But when you offer that as a service to the public, there are different rules in place. Just like you can cook bad meat at home and eat it if you like, but you can't serve that in a restaurant.

Quoting pu (Reply 27):
. You honestly think that 10s of millions of us who use the massively rewarding uber system and are thankful to be rid of taxis are incapable of deciding what is and is not a safe ride, but you are?

How could i? But the safety, security, service level and so on requirements the government put in place can.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 28):
but to think Uber is wholly unsafe is a silly notion.

Well, I'd like an independent 3rd party in charge of commercial vehicle safety, and not just Ubers word for it, that has a little conflict of interest in the matter.
No one is standing in the way of Uber doing business, they just have to follow the law of the land.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 37):
they just have to follow the law of the land.

>>>>>>>>They are following the law of the land. What you really can't stand is that individuals make up their own mind without your help or the government's help.

+ But we better make up some new laws to catch up with all the freedom of choice technology is bringing, right?

.....We can't have mere individuals making up their minds, the state must approve all decisions. Why are you so insistent that government must intervene in the transaction between a perfectly safe licensed driver and someone willing to pay that person to drive?

+ Answer this: WHY are you refusing to allow individuals to make up their own minds about transport? WHY don't you simply trust people to make up their own minds????

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 37):
when you offer that as a service to the publi

+It's not really offered to the general public the way an open restaurant or prowling taxi is. You have to sign up for uber, provide a credit card, etc... It's like joining a club. A ride-sharing club. There are other options and there is no way to accidentally get in a dangerous, life-killing unregulated uber car - you have to willingly know what you're doing and proactively agree to take the vast, dire, incredibly dangerous risks that kills 1000s every day.

+ Uber owns no cars and provides no transportation services. Just as it's perfectly legal to friend a stranger on Facebook and offer them 20 euro to take you to the airport, it's perfectly legal to use an app to introduce you to an uber driver who will happily drive you to the airport. Let's have Brussels form a committee, tax it, and restore the price-gouging taxicab monopoly!

DOES THE WILL OF THE ACTUAL CONSUMERS OF CAR TRANSPORTATION IN PARIS HAVE NO IMPORTANCE FOR YOU?

If Taxis were so great, I'd agree with you. But don't let facts on the ground interfere with your hypothetical ideals of government perfection and regulation.

....the fact that the Paris cabbies are upset is because the consumer is making a better choice over cab drivers there are rude, overpriced and not readily available except at cab stands. How is it possible the sacred power of government regulation and licensing produces such an undesirable taxicab product?????????



Pu.

[Edited 2015-06-26 10:12:18]
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 36):
However, it's not quite that these Paris taxi drivers are hard working average guys trying to make a living. It's more like (in American terms) they are the old phone company when there was only one phone company: you either use them or use nothing.

The drivers are hard working average guys trying to make a living by, in essence, running their own business. Those who run the system are a different story, but I'm not really concerned about them.

Quoting pu (Reply 36):
Getting a taxi medallion in NYC was upwards of 20 grand last time I checked. It's a rigged system controlled by a handful of wealthy guys who hire immigrants who just fell off the boat to do the dirty work. This has to go.

You're not wrong. But the solution is not to let Uber, which provides the same service as the taxis, operate under a different set of rules. The solution is to come up with a new set of rules by which both taxis and Uber can operate alongside one another, ensuring that those who have made the investment in the proper licenses because they were told by the government they had to in order to run their business are still able to run their business.

Quoting pu (Reply 36):
Just curious why are taxi drivers, a few thousand people at most, held in such high esteem versus the needs and wants of 10s of millions of uber customers?

The wishes of the majority should not necessarily trample over those of the minority.

Quoting pu (Reply 36):
And what about uber drivers: can't they be given some value here?

Unfortunately, they're working for a company that's cheating the system. So while I respect their attempts to make a living, they've still hitched their wagons to a problematic horse.

Quoting pu (Reply 36):
...and as mentioned it REALLY HELPS curb drunk driving. I press a button on my phone and uber is there is 3 minutes, no address, no cash needed.....

I don't dispute the convenience, certainly. But that's an entirely separate issue. Letting companies cheat the system based on how good their product is doesn't work.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 38):
They are following the law of the land

Nope, they are not. They have been told that what they are doing is illegal, they kept going (just like any common criminal would) and now France decided to enforce the law.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 37):
Well, I'd like an independent 3rd party in charge of commercial vehicle safety, and not just Ubers word for it, that has a little conflict of interest in the matter.

In the US, UberBlack and UberSUV drivers are required to obtain commercial licensing. UberX, UberXL, and UberSelect are ride share services, which are subject to regulations any other motorist would be subject to. Additionally, Uber requires ride share drivers to submit a 3rd party inspection done at a pre-approved auto inspection location.

The fact that governments haven't addressed ride share services is no fault of Uber. I don't feel Uber should be so brash in how it goes about bringing about change, but when there is a power dynamic that is standing in the way of warranted innovation Uber has determined that continuing to operate until regulators address the situation is the best course of action for them.
 
blueflyer
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:09 pm

While the taxi drivers' behavior is inexcusable, it is understandable from a political science point-of-view: violent protests (defined as violence used by either protesters or law enforcement) tend to generate more positive results for the protesters than peaceful protests. It is as true in France as in other democracies and many non-democratic countries as well.

Quoting pu (Reply 38):
Why are you so insistent that government must intervene in the transaction between a perfectly safe licensed driver and someone willing to pay that person to drive?

Some might argue that regulating commerce to ensure its safe and fair provision is very much the role of government through steps such as ensuring that the driver is licensed and perfectly safe. If safety includes having appropriate insurance coverage, perfect safety may be an illusion on the platforms of the likes of Uber and Lyft.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
The solution is to come up with a new set of rules

The belief in rules, government and regulation that you and Tommy seem to have such confidence in has given us the failed system of taxicabs we have today. The reason why the drivers are rioting in Paris is because everyone in Paris hates the taxis and wants to use uber.

I just don't agree that regulation makes things better. It has made things terrible and is merely a tool to enforce a monopoly. How about you ride in regulated taxis and I join a ride-sharing club and pay whoever I want to drive me around?

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
ensuring that those who have made the investment in the proper licenses because they were told by the government they had to in order to run their business are still able to run their business

It's like people who become pilots right before the massive layoffs come around. Or people who train to become film developers right before electronic photography. Technology changes things and it's wrong to hold the vast majority of us hostage to high fares and bad service just because some people guessed wrong about their careers. I'm happy to chip in for their retraining, btw.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
The wishes of the majority should not necessarily trample over those of the minority.

You're coming dangerously close to saying democracy is wrong and that consumers shouldn't buy what they want but instead what the government says is ok for them to buy. No one wants or needs your approval to choose a ride and requiring your (or government) approval has only made things expensive and unpleasant.

You and Tommy are acting like everyone is now forced to use Uber. They aren't. It's just that we CHOOSE to use uber. What about my free choice, and the choice of everyone in Paris dissing taxis and taking uber? This is more important than the taxi-drivers union and thank you for your concern, but I'd prefer to live my life without your efforts to protect a privileged minority like taxicab drivers.

Why aren't you comfortable with those of us who like uber making our own decisions? Why do you insist its better for government to approve before hand who can drive me around?

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
they're working for a company that's cheating the system

When a system is failed, corrupt and provides crappy expensive service - like the taxi cab system in Paris and New York, I for one am tickled beyond belief that Uber cheats this disastrous system. But feel free to pay twice as much for a taxi, just kindly let me choose my own transport options.

But again, I appreciate your arguments much more than the red-herring that uber is unsafe.....




Pu.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 41):
The fact that governments haven't addressed ride share services is no fault of Uber. I don't feel Uber should be so brash in how it goes about bringing about change, but when there is a power dynamic that is standing in the way of warranted innovation Uber has determined that continuing to operate until regulators address the situation is the best course of action for them.

I think if drug cartels had PR people, they would say exactly that.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
I think if drug cartels had PR people, they would say exactly that.

It is pretty simple. Selling drugs=illegal. Driving people around=not illegal. Driving people around to make money=not illegal. I can pick up my neighbor and take him to the airport for $10, am I breaking the law? Am I a criminal? Am I equitable to a drug cartel?
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
I think if drug cartels had PR people, they would say exactly that.

Furthermore the rest of the world is addressing the exactly what I mentioned in regards to Uber and other ride services. If the EU wants to be left in the dust when it comes to disruption technologies so be it.
 
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pu
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 41):
but when there is a power dynamic that is standing in the way of warranted innovation

           

The proof this innovation is warranted is the profound impact uber has had on Paris taxis. People are voting by giving their business where they choose.

However, there are some especially proud people enormously impressed with their own intellect who hate the fact that others can make decisions in their own life without obtaining outside approval or government regulation first.

Thankfully, these profoundly gifted regulators and the taxi union are here to protect us since they alone know whats best for us even as we freethinking rebels who ride uber dangerously cannot perceive the danger. WORSE: what starts with uber may spread elsewhere and soon people will believe they don't need the government to regulate so much.

A typical tactic from government fans and entrenched unions (who stand to lose a lot by new innovations) is to say those who upset the status quo are like terrorist criminals and a threat to our safety, such as:
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
drug cartels





Pu.
 
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 46):
f the EU wants to be left in the dust when it comes to disruption technologies so be it.

The will and enforcement ability of the EU governing mechanisms to quash disruptive technologies is peerless in the world.


Uber is the equivalent of Ryanair or Southwst...It's the equivalent of open skies and deregulation in the airline world: the consumers win and the entrenched players fight like hell to keep their cozy monopolies in place.




Pu.
 
tommy1808
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RE: France Vs. Uber...

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 45):
It is pretty simple. Selling drugs=illegal. Driving people around=not illegal. Driving people around to make money=not illegal.

In France it appears to be illegal, because there you have to be licensed. Doing illegal business because "legislation is behind demand" is exactly what a drug cartel does.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 46):
If the EU wants to be left in the dust when it comes to disruption technologies so be it.

Yeah.. we are all going to die, because we don't have Uber POP service. Right. Anyone that wants to drive for Uber, can do so, he just needs to quirk the proper license.
But obviously the Uber concept is not disruptive enough (at all?) to compete with classical taxis when they have to play by the same rules. Otherwise they wouldn't be complaining.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

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