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wilco737
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Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:18 am

Continue part 3.

Link to part 2:

Greece Default Imminent - Part 2 (by ManuCH Jul 5 2015 in Non Aviation)

Additionally:

Do not start flamewars, disrespecting posts or anything like that. We want to keep the thread open as it is a topic which many wants to discuss. So do discuss it and don't start any personal attacks and behave properly.

Thanks.
 
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mariner
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:47 am

From the previous thread:

"If the debts a just cancelled and brushed under the carpet, as many would hope is going to be the case. That is not being held accountable in my book."

Given that hasn't happened - yet at least - presently the Greek people are being held accountable, whatever anyone here says.

The often uncounted social cost of this austerity is, of course, alarming.

mariner
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tommy1808
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:37 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Given that hasn't happened

you mean it hasn´t happened aside of 107 Billion EUR that where already swept under the rug of course.

best regards
Thomas
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OA260
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Given that hasn't happened - yet at least - presently the Greek people are being held accountable, whatever anyone here says.

You are indeed correct. They are not asking to write it all off and not be accountable despite what the ''experts'' say.
Tsipras in his speech in Strasbourg yesterday noted responsibility for the failings of previous governments.


WASHINGTON--International Monetary Fund Managing Director Christine Lagarde on Wednesday reiterated that Greece needs debt restructuring as part of a bailout deal, but warned that Athens won't receive special treatment as the government seeks to delay its loan repayments to the IMF.

Debt restructuring "is needed in the particular case of Greece for it to have debt sustainability," Ms. Lagarde said at a Brookings Institution event.

Although the comments repeat the assessment issued by the IMF last week saying debt-maturity extensions are required "at a minimum" to ensure the country doesn't drown in its obligations, they underscore growing pressure by the IMF, the U.S. and others for Germany to allow debt relief as a core part of an emergency financing deal.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/imf...eeds-debt-restructuring-2015-07-09
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:49 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 2):
you mean it hasn´t happened aside of 107 Billion EUR that where already swept under the rug of course.

I mean that in this present situation - that Tsipras inherited when he came to power - there has been no relief of Greek debts.

mariner
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OA260
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:26 am

Already having effects beyond Greece's borders. People who want to let Greece go are also happy for Russia to take their place it seems.


Once Swarming with Greek Visitors, a Bulgarian Town Reels as Business Languishes
Escalation of Greece crisis has sparked fears of contagion in neighboring countries

SANDANSKI, Bulgaria—Like many of his Greek compatriots, Evangelos Emmanouil voted in Sunday’s referendum. But after casting his ballot in the city of Serres in the morning, he drove about an hour north, across the border to his home in Bulgaria.

Mr. Emmanouil lives and works as an accountant in Sandanski. Though not in Greece, the town isn’t a good place to be these days, he said.

“Bulgarian cities along the border have deep links with Greece, and they are now suffering along with the people on the other side,” said Mr. Emmanouil, who as a Greek citizen was eligible to vote in the referendum.

The escalation of the Greek debt crisis has sparked fears of contagion in neighboring countries and across Europe. Eastern European central banks in recent weeks have rushed to ease concerns among investors and depositors that the Greek crisis could infect their fragile economies.

But in Sandanski, contagion is already real. Famed for its thermal springs, this town of 30,000 people caters to Greek visitors. Most shops boast bilingual signs, and local restaurants and bars are filled with the sound of Greek music.

Today, however, there are fewer Greek tourists, shops are no longer bustling and the main shopping street, where Greek was more often heard than Bulgarian, is often deserted. Last year, more than 150 buses packed with Greek visitors arrived here every weekend. Now it is just two or three, bus operators said.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-c...ntagion-among-neighbors-1436359613
 
Rara
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
People who want to let Greece go are also happy for Russia to take their place it seems.

If Russia want to ruin themselves, let them go ahead. They're already paying through the nose for the Crimea, suffering from low oil prices, getting ripped off by China in gas deals and so on. If they now want to sink some billions into the Greek economy, why not!

In fact the Russians aren't that stupid, they've already ruled out any engagement.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:17 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
If Russia want to ruin themselves, let them go ahead. They're already paying through the nose for the Crimea, suffering from low oil prices, getting ripped off by China in gas deals and so on. If they now want to sink some billions into the Greek economy, why not!

In fact the Russians aren't that stupid, they've already ruled out any engagement.

Financial aid yes but trade and influence in the region no. Its not just Greece its the neighbours in the Balkans that are looking elsewhere. Tourists ( as per the article ) and soon maybe for their business trade. How that settles with EU sanctions and whether other countries are willing to turn a blind eye leaves to be seen.
 
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par13del
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
I mean that in this present situation - that Tsipras inherited when he came to power - there has been no relief of Greek debts.

Well if the Troika did not like who was elected is it beyond the realm of possibility that even though they all know that the debt cannot be repaid and restructuring is required they will not offer it to punish the government?

The Daily Mail is not always the best but for comments it's good enough, how many support this type statement from our "best" airline exec, how much of strict austerity measures were "personal" rather then logical?
If you have a country where the number of self employed persons are high how is that addressed if that is the only country with such number, try to understand it and work with it or change it into what you have?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-banks-stay-closed-rest-week.html

Guess he loves democracy just as much as the next guy  
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:15 pm

So we should give money to Greeks so they can vacation in Bulgaria ?
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
So we should give money to Greeks so they can vacation in Bulgaria ?

You miss the point. The economic effects are being felt already beyond Greece's borders. Maybe the French will go there?


Also what are your proposals for the migrant crisis in the Med? Will the EU send a fleet to take over from the Hellenic coastguard which due to collapse if Greece becomes a country without fuel wont be able to rescue them? Countries are already bitching about taking 40K from Italy and Greece to take in their pathetic share.

Also what about the Schengen zone which is already beginning to crack?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
So we should give money to Greeks so they can vacation in Bulgaria ?

Well, we could offer relieve fonds for the effected areas in Bulgaria. After all, they already talking about using the EU natural disaster fond to address humanitarian crisis in Greece, probably because Tsipras certainly qualifies as such, so why not for otherwise effected areas?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Will the EU send a fleet to take over from the Hellenic coastguard which due to collapse if Greece becomes a country without fuel wont be able to rescue them?

They probably will.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Also what about the Schengen zone which is already beginning to crack?

Is that one of your fantasies about the EU again or can you substantiate it this time?

best regards
Thomas
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JJJ
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
The economic effects are being felt already beyond Greece's borders. Maybe the French will go there?

That's a weather vs climate case.

Of course small villages close to Greece will suffer, but on the grand scheme of things, not a big deal.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
They probably will.

Do you have source or a link to a plan? They didnt do a anything until hundreds were already dead.


Migration Crisis: The EU's Shipwrecked Refugee Plan

When 800 refugees drowned on their way to Europe this April, leaders promised to act. Just over two months later, the EU's attempts at real reform have all but failed -- and thrown up some dark moral questions.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/...fugee-quotas-failed-a-1040226.html

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
Is that one of your fantasies about the EU again or can you substantiate it this time?

Cracks In Schengen As Europe Builds Walls Against Migrants

From Hungary to Switzerland, fortifications are rising in the heart of Europe, where the once-heralded borderless zone is being diminished by the day.


GENEVA — The Hungarian government announced plans earlier this month to build a 175-kilometer-long, four-meter-tall barrier along its border with Serbia. Ostensibly for protection, the project is yet another barricade built at the edges of the European Union, where the foundations of the borderless Schengen Area are weakening by the day.

Faced with the growing difficulty of leaving Greece by sea or air, migrants are choosing the long land route through the Balkan peninsula to reach the Schengen Area. As we near its 30th anniversary, tensions between member states are intensifying. In France, Austria and Switzerland, the specter of closing borders to keep out migrants is rearing its ugly head.

A quarter-century after the fall of the Iron Curtain, Hungary wants to rebuild a physical frontier with Serbia, this time to block access to the EU for thousands of northward-bound asylum seekers. Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto declared that his government would launch technical and diplomatic preparations for the erection of a fence spanning the Serb-Hungarian border between the Hungarian cities of Mohacs and Szeged. (Late Monday, Hungary's parliament approved the plans for the giant barrier.)

The border is one of the last open land routes left in the peninsula, where refugees fleeing the Middle East wars and southern Europe's failing economies make their way through Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Kosovo and Serbia to reach the holy grail of Schengen. EU border surveillance agency Frontex reported 43,360 illegal border crossings in the Balkans in 2014, up from 6,400 in 2012. An alarming 50,000 have been recorded since January of this year, half from Kosovo alone.

With a population of just under 10 million, Hungary is finding itself on another frontline of the EU's burgeoning humanitarian crisis. The number of asylum seekers in Hungary grew to over 50,000 last year, a figure already surpassed in the first half of 2015.

"The EU is still looking for a solution, but Hungary can't keep waiting anymore," says Szijjarto. He notes that Budapest isn't violating any international agreements and that there is ample precedent for similar barriers to guard against illegal immigration.

"I'm shocked and surprised," Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic says of the Hungarian plan. He resents Budapest's decision not to consult Belgrade before opting to build the fence. "We count on discussing these issues with our partners in the EU," Vukic says. Hungary was among the countries most hostile to the European Commission's proposal to distribute 40,000 refugees currently in Greece and Italy among the bloc's 28 members.


http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-aff...ly-refugees/c1s19103/#.VZ5t3niBiRJ
 
Rara
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 7):
Financial aid yes but trade and influence in the region no. Its not just Greece its the neighbours in the Balkans that are looking elsewhere. Tourists ( as per the article ) and soon maybe for their business trade. How that settles with EU sanctions and whether other countries are willing to turn a blind eye leaves to be seen.

I don't care. I'm not a geostrategist. The Russians can "influence" whoever they want to. If they pay for their influence out of their own pocket, even better.

I believe that we as Europeans should maintain respectful and peaceful relations with Russia, treat them at eye level and stop trying to screw them over. We should buy their gas and sell them our manufactured goods. And that's all there's to it.

As for defense, if countries want to be safe from outside threats, they can remain in the NATO. If they choose to leave or ally with someone else, let them do so.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
Do you have source or a link to a plan?

If there was a plan i could link to, i would not have written "probably"....

Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-aff...ly-refugees/c1s19103/#.VZ5t3niBiRJ

Though so. It is your fantasy again. The headline is clickbait, the meat is about Schengen countries trying to keep non-Schengen Migrants out.
The only relevant part to this discussion is how the EU tries to distribute refugees from Italy and Greece into other EU countries. Again services free of charge provided to Greece by the oh-so-heartless EU.

Also interesting that you post a Le Monde article, but not directly from Le Monde... oh, the original sources headline doesn´t say anything about cracks in Schengen, that one was made up (well, i see a pattern there) by people that claim to provide translations into English. With that lack of source criticism in mind your position becomes more.. mm.. understandable.

So, do you have a source for your claim or just a fake translation from a French newspaper article that doesn´t say what you claim?

best regards
Thomas
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par13del
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
So we should give money to Greeks so they can vacation in Bulgaria ?

Probably cheaper than trying to pay off bad loans, it is always cheaper to cater to people versus companies with all their financial book keeping etc etc etc  
 
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OA260
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
they can remain in the NATO.

Seeing as you bring up NATO :


The Island of Crete is home to a US naval base.

NATO is also concerned about the recent signing of a contract between Cyprus and Russia to allow the Russian Navy access to its ports.


Greek debt crisis could give Russia opening to expand influence in region

The Greek debt crisis could ultimately pose a national security problem for the U.S. if Athens turns to Russia if it can’t solve its mounting problems with its European Union partners.

The Obama administration is “missing the bigger picture” by not taking a more active role in the Greek debt crisis, which, if not resolved, could both expand Russia’s influence in the region and decrease confidence in both the European Union and NATO, said Henry Nau, who served as a member of the National Security Council under President Reagan.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-could-give-russia-opening-to-ex/

Yet people keep saying Greece is ok to loose and no one cares. If Greece was not as strategically placed between East and West then I might agree but with this game of politics and fight for power in the region than Im not so sure.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
If there was a plan i could link to, i would not have written "probably"....

''Probably''? So to answer my question what will the EU do about the migrants should the Hellenic Coastguard go under due to no money or fuel? Shoulda coulda woulda.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
Though so. It is your fantasy again.

Not according to the Italians either. Keeping migrants out? No they are already in  


Do you know what ''PLAN B'' is Thomas? Is Italy not like Greece a Schengen member?


The crisis “should not be underestimated”, prime minister Matteo Renzi said, as Austria, France and Switzerland expelled asylum seekers back onto Italian soil.

“Let me be clear, Europe’s answers so far have not been good enough,” Renzi added.

The EU is having difficulty achieving consensus for its proposed migrant distribution plan – under which 24,000 refugees would be taken in by other countries – but Italy is hoping an EU summit on 25-26 June will go even further.

“Redistributing just 24,000 people is almost a provocation,” Renzi said.

“If Europe chooses solidarity, good. If it doesn’t, we have Plan B ready. But it would first and foremost hurt Europe,” he said, without providing details.

Renzi has come under pressure to take a stronger stance with the 28-member bloc, with the anti-establishment Five Star movement suggesting Italy threaten to freeze its EU budget contributions if aid is not forthcoming.

“I cannot reveal our Plan B,” interior minister Angelino Alfano told Sky TG24, “but if Europe is not supportive, it will find itself dealing with a different Italy. We will not accept a selfish Europe.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...fixed-says-italian-pm-matteo-renzi
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:02 pm

Let's keep track of the scare tactics: contagion, the evil Russians, and now, being overrun by hoards of dark skinned illegal immigrants! Next we'll read that the Greeks are the stalwarts preventing plagues of locusts from sweeping across Europe so the EU should forgive their debts!

Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
If Russia want to ruin themselves, let them go ahead. They're already paying through the nose for the Crimea, suffering from low oil prices, getting ripped off by China in gas deals and so on. If they now want to sink some billions into the Greek economy, why not!

Greece: the next Cuba! At least the Cubans could provide sugar, rums and cigars in exchange. It seems like Greece is having a hard time producing a stale Baklava.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Also what are your proposals for the migrant crisis in the Med? Will the EU send a fleet to take over from the Hellenic coastguard which due to collapse if Greece becomes a country without fuel wont be able to rescue them? Countries are already bitching about taking 40K from Italy and Greece to take in their pathetic share.

Surely even you can see this is just a scare tactic. 10M Greeks refuse to pay their debts but instead the EU should worry about 40k illegal immigrants?
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
Not according to the Italians either. Keeping migrants out? No they are already in

distracting from the fact again that you are making stuff up, again?

So, where is the source that Schengen is cracking, because otherwise the whole shabang about Italy is pointless.

Best regards
Thomas
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OA260
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Let's keep track of the scare tactics: contagion, the evil Russians, and now, being overrun by hoards of dark skinned illegal immigrants! Next we'll read that the Greeks are the stalwarts preventing plagues of locusts from sweeping across Europe so the EU should forgive their debts!

This is not coming from the Greek media or people its coming from outside.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Surely even you can see this is just a scare tactic. 10M Greeks refuse to pay their debts but instead the EU should worry about 40k illegal immigrants?

Not at all its an aspect of what can happen should Greece go under. Not a scare tactic just the reality of what can happen. One reason why people with nothing to do with being Greek or pro Greek are raising alarms.
 
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OA260
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 20):
distracting from the fact again that you are making stuff up, again?
Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Also what about the Schengen zone which is already beginning to crack?
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
Is that one of your fantasies about the EU again or can you substantiate it this time?
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
“I cannot reveal our Plan B,” interior minister Angelino Alfano told Sky TG24, “but if Europe is not supportive, it will find itself dealing with a different Italy. We will not accept a selfish Europe.”

What is your understanding of the Schengen area Thomas? Why was the Schengen area set up and what are its principles? And also answer what you think PLAN B is? It is very relevant. Both Greece and Italy are members of it. Italy is not even in the situation that Greece economically is in and already they are talking about PLAN B. You go on about links and sources and things not being relevant to suit your argument but when pressed yourself you fail to answer which somewhat brings into doubt over your credibility which you claim my posts dont have.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
Not at all its an aspect of what can happen should Greece go under. Not a scare tactic just the reality of what can happen. One reason why people with nothing to do with being Greek or pro Greek are raising alarms.

Sure its a scare tactic, and one with deep racist undertones. Surely if 10m Greeks are becoming destitute then why are the 40k immigrants being raised as in issue? Answer: Greeks are mostly white, illegal immigrants are mostly black!
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
Sure its a scare tactic, and one with deep racist undertones. Surely if 10m Greeks are becoming destitute then why are the 40k immigrants being raised as in issue? Answer: Greeks are mostly white, illegal immigrants are mostly black!

Not at all how is it racist? Europe are fighting over taking their fair share of the immigrants coming into Europe. The issue is that these countries where they first turn up can't cope. Its nothing racist at all. Who are you calling racist? The EU because they wont take their fair share? Its not a scare tactic its reality. If Greece goes under how will they cope?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 22):
What is your understanding of the Schengen area Thomas?

again distracting from the fact that you made a claim that you couldn't back up when asked to?

May I remind you of the board rules?

Quote:
When stating facts, statistics or newsworthy bulletins, please be sure to include an HTML link or reference to a publication. If you are merely providing an opinion, please MENTION THIS in your post. It is each member's responsibility to avoid arguments based on rumors or misinformation.

So, do you have a source, or was that just your opinion?

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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
again distracting from the fact that you made a claim that you couldn't back up when asked to?

May I remind you of the board rules?

Again avoiding the questions and the rules apply to you equally. If you want to answer the questions I put to you and give me your answers I am more than willing to have an adult conversation with you. I still maintain the Schengen agreement is cracking but until you answer the questions put Im afraid we can't go any further. I have asked you in a polite and detailed manner. I respect you as another member but equally you can't make posts over the last two threads attacking me for lack of credibility and fantasy.
 
Rara
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 26):
Again avoiding the questions and the rules apply to you equally. If you want to answer the questions I put to you and give me your answers I am more than willing to have an adult conversation with you. I still maintain the Schengen agreement is cracking but until you answer the questions put Im afraid we can't go any further. I have asked you in a polite and detailed manner. I respect you as another member but equally you can't make posts over the last two threads attacking me for lack of credibility and fantasy.

This is really just a long way of saying "I don't have a source".
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
victrola
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
Yet people keep saying Greece is ok to loose and no one cares. If Greece was not as strategically placed between East and West then I might agree but with this game of politics and fight for power in the region than Im not so sure

There seem to be signs in Europe that traditional split between Orthodox Eastern Europe and Western Europe is emerging again. It is not inconcievable that a Greece alienated from its EU partners could find it has more in common with its Russian Orthodox brothers.

[Edited 2015-07-09 07:49:44]
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 27):
This is really just a long way of saying "I don't have a source".

Where did I break the forum rules? On quoting a source ? Why dont you press Thomas to answer the questions and just target me?

Quoting victrola (Reply 28):
It is not inconcievable that a Greece alienated from its EU partners could find it has more in common with its Russian Orthodox brothers.

Well personally I hope not but anything is possible.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 26):
Again avoiding the questions and the rules apply to you equally.

If i state a fact, i have the obligation to provide a credible source, but i am not stating facts, i am asking for your source. You have to provide a source, or say that it is just your opinion, and that is not contingent to me engaging in a discussion about anything else. I generally find it a waste of time to discuss with people that make up their "facts". This appears to be the 2nd time you claim a fact and fail to back them up when asked to, even after being provided with proof to the contrary. Oh, btw, where is yours source for EU members needing permission to leave the EU?

Discussion only works with facts, anything else is just propaganda.

Quoting Rara (Reply 27):
This is really just a long way of saying "I don't have a source".

  

And it is so easy to use "if i recall correctly", "as far as i know" and "in my humble opinion". And no shame in it either.

best regards
Thomas
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 8):
Well if the Troika did not like who was elected is it beyond the realm of possibility that even though they all know that the debt cannot be repaid and restructuring is required they will not offer it to punish the government?

That wouldn't shock me in the least. In fact, I suspect this is part of the reason they are taking such a hard line on debt reduction when it's become abundantly clear Greece cannot pay its debt. They couldn't effect regime change on Sunday, so they're now trying a different route to punish a regime they despise.
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 30):
If i state a fact, i have the obligation to provide a credible source, but i am not stating facts, i am asking for your source

Again you fail to answer the questions put but I dont think you will answer them anyway. What I consider to be a credible source and you do may be two different things. Where does it say in the rules that I broke them? I may not like a source that someone has linked to but where is the violation ? Did I not post a link to a source with the title ''Cracks In Schengen As Europe Builds Walls Against Migrants''

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
Quote:
When stating facts, statistics or newsworthy bulletins, please be sure to include an HTML link or reference to a publication. If you are merely providing an opinion, please MENTION THIS in your post. It is each member's responsibility to avoid arguments based on rumors or misinformation.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
Cracks In Schengen As Europe Builds Walls Against Migrants

I didnt make that up its not my website the fact you dont like the source I linked to is not a violation with due respect.

Did I not post another link showing where I believe those cracks are showing. But when I asked you questions about Schengen they are conveniently ignored. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Then to say its irrelevant is simply not the case because Greece is a member of Schengen with the same migrant crisis as Italy and people have called for Greece to be kicked out of the Eurozone and the EU so that would have massive implications on Greece and its ability to cope. The cracks are showing.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 31):
They couldn't effect regime change on Sunday, so they're now trying a different route to punish a regime they despise

BINGO. They had all bets on the Greeks voting Yes and giving into fear and the government falling. It didnt happen and now its a battle of wills. The thing is how do they now both come to an agreement that doesn't give either side too much egg on their face.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
BINGO. They had all bets on the Greeks voting Yes and giving into fear and the government falling. It didnt happen and now its a battle of wills. The thing is how do they now both come to an agreement that doesn't give either side too much egg on their face.

Agreed with this. I wish I had an answer to how that can be accomplished. I suspect the parties don't have one either.
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 34):
Agreed with this. I wish I had an answer to how that can be accomplished. I suspect the parties don't have one either.

Thats the problem really. Often things in the EU/Eurozone dont get done until after the horse has bolted. We often see it in war zones,economic crisis and the current migrant crisis. They are too busy fighting with each other and no one wants to address things. Of course they are not alone in that regard but still the whole response times and solutions to things need to be looked at.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
Not at all how is it racist? Europe are fighting over taking their fair share of the immigrants coming into Europe.

The issue is that drawing attention to 40k immigrants when 10m are on their way to abject poverty is nothing more than a distraction, one with deep racial undertones.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 24):
If Greece goes under how will they cope?

If Greece goes under the 10m destitute Greeks are the problem not the 40k destitute immigrants. The 40k immigrants are being used as a scare tactic because it grabs the focus away from the 10m Greeks who refuse to pay their debts.
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 31):
In fact, I suspect this is part of the reason they are taking such a hard line on debt reduction when it's become abundantly clear Greece cannot pay its debt.

If they wanted to, they could have wrecked Greece any time they liked. They could have even argued that the help will seize because Greece doesn´t comply with the agreement. A pretty groundless conspiracy theory imho. Much more likely that the Greek government is playing hardball because they know the other EU states don´t want them to leave EURO/EU and that 300 Billion are pretty much pocket change in the great scheme of things.

On the other hand, what reason do the other nations have to piss of their own citizens with a debt restructuring? Especially without any reason to believe that it will help? Austerity isn´t the way to go, but how much better will they fare after restructuring? After all, there was a time before austerity and Greece failed to accomplish anything with the free 108 or so Billion EURO they got from the EU since they became a member another member quoted in part II i believe.

Even if they could offload all their debt, would they suddenly start collecting taxes? Would they suddenly stay within their budget? Invest money in future technologies and infrastructure to be competitive beyond agriculture, wine and tourism (yes, i know i am exaggerate)? Where are the signs that they would suddenly, suddenly be budget conscience? Especially with a government that is busy finding jobs for relatives instead from tackling problems? Heck, they even refuse to go after tax evaders if they get them on a silver platter (someone brought that up in part II i believe). How long did it take Alexis Tsipras to get his cousin a good job? I mean after he stopped promising the citizens that he would end nepotism in Greece?
http://panteres.com/2015/05/07/greec...iza-government-nepotism-continues/

The thing is, without the reasonable expectation that things will change long term, why bother, why piss of your own electorate? The Greek government so far doesn´t offer much more than "for a couple of 100 Billion you can buy yourselves a few years before we revisit the topic".

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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
The issue is that drawing attention to 40k immigrants when 10m are on their way to abject poverty is nothing more than a distraction, one with deep racial undertones.

I dont believe there is anything racist about it to be honest. As someone who has been the brunt of racism I would be the first to say if it was racist. My concern is with everyone currently on Greek soil. Whether they be Greek,EU,Migrants. For some its not a huge deal they can get out of the country on buses,flights,ships but for the majority they can't.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
If Greece goes under the 10m destitute Greeks are the problem not the 40k destitute immigrants. The 40k immigrants are being used as a scare tactic because it grabs the focus away from the 10m Greeks who refuse to pay their debts.

Not at all. Im sure you will agree the last two threads were full of posts about Greece paying its debts and the arguements for and against. The thread is looking at the aspects of the current debt crisis and the impacts of a default. This is one of them sadly. Its the human impact on both Greeks and the migrants who have made it to Greece. I dont know if you have followed the migrant crisis in Greece but its got to a stage where some Islands are completely overwhelmed. Locals have done what they can to provide clothes and food along with severely over stretched local government resources. Its been widely reported. So for me I dread to think that a failed state which many seem to suggest Greece already is would be able to cope with that. When people say ''Oh who cares we can let Greece go out of the EU and Eurozone'' then my argument is its not that easy. Unless of course they are ready to let a duty of care to both Greeks and migrants go purely the humanitarian aspect of what a default does.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Did I not post a link to a source with the title ''Cracks In Schengen As Europe Builds Walls Against Migrants''

You posted the link to an English translation of a french article that says nothing about cracks in Schengen. The source of that article is Le Monde. Hence, you didn´t post a link to a source, since that would have been the link to the Le Monde article, and that doesn´t back up your claim. You just posted a link to the first result google yiels when you search for "cracks in Schengen". The important part is that the link you provided doesn´t back up your claim, only the headline does. And that headline has nothing to do with the article, that you can find here: http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article...n-des-frontieres_4656787_3214.html

Nothing about Schengen cracking.

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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:02 pm

Greek island refugee crisis: local people and tourists rally round migrants
Residents and even holidaymakers on Lesbos are exposing themselves to threats and possible legal action by helping newly arrived refugees

On the northern coast of Lesbos, on the shore outside a famous local hotel, the footfall is usually limited to tourists. But on a recent morning, there was an unusual interloper. It was the president of the local village, Thanassis Andreotis, standing on the back of his white pick-up and tuggin the remains of a huge inflatable dinghy up from the beach below. Every morning, refugees use dinghies like this one to get from the Turkish shore – six miles away in the distance – to the Greek islands. And Andreotis saw it as his human duty to pick up the debris.

“It’s way, way, way more than last year,” Andreotis, a retired policeman said. “Last year I’d be doing this once a week. Now it’s once a day.”

There have long been refugees trying their luck in these waters. But this year, amid the world’s biggest wave of mass-migration since the second world war, the numbers arriving on this isolated shoreline have reached record levels. Arrivals to the Greek archipelago are already 50% higher than for the whole of 2014 – and have even now out-paced Italy. Lesbos, hitherto known as an exquisite tourist destination, has become the frontline – the Greek Lampedusa.

It could not have happened at a worse time. The Greek economy is close to collapse, with the European Central Bank threatening on Wednesday to withdraw its support for Greek banks by the end of the week.

Not that Andreotis blamed the refugees. “They’re hunted by their government and they’re running everywhere from horrible things,” he said, hauling the last bits of dinghy up from the beach. And he said that lots of local people – some of whom are themselves descendants of migrants who left Turkey in 1922 – agree with him. When he recently went into the centre of town with a megaphone and called for donations for the migrants, “within 10 minutes there were four cars of supplies”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-and-tourists-rally-round-migrants
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
It is your fantasy again.
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 20):
distracting from the fact again that you are making stuff up, again?

So, where is the source that Schengen is cracking
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
May I remind you of the board rules?

Quote:
When stating facts, statistics or newsworthy bulletins, please be sure to include an HTML link or reference to a publication. If you are merely providing an opinion, please MENTION THIS in your post. It is each member's responsibility to avoid arguments based on rumors or misinformation.

So, do you have a source, or was that just your opinion?
Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
Cracks In Schengen As Europe Builds Walls Against Migrants
Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-aff...ly-refugees/c1s19103/#.VZ5t3niBiRJ

Sorry Thomas Im still wondering where I broke the forum rules and was in violation of them as you posted.

When you click on the link whats the title of the article on the link I posted?
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
The thread is looking at the aspects of the current debt crisis and the impacts of a default. This is one of them sadly. Its the human impact on both Greeks and the migrants who have made it to Greece.

Yet why the focus on the immigrants? 10m destitute are now 10.04m destitute when you lump in the immigrants - nothing significant in the great scheme of things, no? If it was a non-racist issue then there really is no difference between 10m and 10.04m. What's unique about the 0.04m immigrants? One clear difference: the lily-white parts of Europe will pay more attention when you scare them with 40k more potential black neighbors.
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
Yet why the focus on the immigrants? 10m destitute are now 10.04m destitute when you lump in the immigrants - nothing significant in the great scheme of things, no? If it was a non-racist issue then there really is no difference between 10m and 10.04m. What's unique about the 0.04m immigrants? One clear difference: the lily-white parts of Europe will pay more attention when you scare them with 40k more potential black neighbors.

Sadly they only took note when 800 drowned in the Med. That was tragic. Like I said too little too late and the situation can only get worse. I do wonder how long local Greeks and tourists as above can go on like this. Its everything Italy is also complaining about help is needed now and you can be sure if Greece defaults it will be needed more than ever.

This may have just been news to you now but its been going on long before the current crisis and reported. Its hitting the news again because its getting more desperate.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
the lily-white parts of Europe will pay more attention when you scare them with 40k more potential black neighbors.

Why do you think they are racist? They are not all black BTW not that it should matter what colour they are. Migrants come from Syria,Palestine,Egypt,Turkey,Kurdistan,Iran,Iraq.

The media has been reporting on the various aspects of what a default means this is one of them. Just like they report on what it means for regional stability and Europes economies. The mass exodus of the youth because they can't find work and the pensioners who have to choose between food and medicine.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 41):
Sorry Thomas Im still wondering where I broke the forum rules and was in violation of them as you posted.

By not providing a source for your claim. Did you know that Marilyn Monroe is still alive? http://www.inquisitr.com/1189088/mar...nnon-and-tupac-in-a-dutch-beer-ad/
"Marilyn Monroe Alive!" the headline says...... see, i proved it.

So, please provide a source for your claim, you know, one that actually does say what you claim, and post it.
And while your add it, please post the source for your claim EU members can´t leave the union without consent of the other member states.

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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
By not providing a source for your claim. Did you know that Marilyn Monroe is still alive? http://www.inquisitr.com/1189088/mar...nnon-and-tupac-in-a-dutch-beer-ad/
"Marilyn Monroe Alive!" the headline says...... see, i proved it.

Sorry as per forum rules I posted a link which is what it states are the rules. It makes no mention of whether the source is something you like or agree with. It says a link to what Im referring to not what the content is. I posted the correct title of what the website had named it and the text. As per rules. It doesn't matter that you dont like that its a translation or quote of another media source. The fact is a link was provided as per the rules to advise you what I was referring to. I did not break the forum rules. Please do not accuse me of breaking forum rules again when the fact is I have not. That is quite below the belt.
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 45):
It makes no mention of whether the source is something you like or agree with.

..and here i always assumed that common sense tells us the link should support that claim that has been made. But hey, at least Marilyn is alive...

So, you have no source for your claim beyond a random clickbait headline, that has nothing to do with the source it claims to be a translation of?

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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 46):
..and here i always assumed that common sense tells us the link should support that claim that has been made. But hey, at least Marilyn is alive...

So, you have no source for your claim beyond a random clickbait headline, that has nothing to do with the source it claims to be a translation of?

Did I break the forum rules?
 
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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:12 pm

Since this is an aviation forum after all, let's see what Mr. O'Leary thinks about the issue at hand:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-boss-michael-oleary-tells-6031106

Quote:
Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary tells Greece to stop drinking coffee and get back to work

... always the Diplomat!

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RE: Greece Default Imminent - Part 3

Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:19 pm

Take that as a No then.  
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 48):
Since this is an aviation forum after all, let's see what Mr. O'Leary thinks about the issue at hand:

Well if MOL is saying it then Im 100% convinced they are not. Great publicity for him though as always. He is very miffed about having to actually sell tickets at the desks at Greek airports. I guess with his Domestic network they are bound to get burnt if we dont see an agreement. Of course he is anti unions and always fighting with various airports and unions. Nothing different I see.
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