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einsteinboricua
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Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:28 pm

So now the debate is not whether the flag should be flown on government buildings but where if at all. I can understand the reasoning behind state governments being required to not hoist the flag: they are part of the Union and, unless it's a private area or a space set aside for Confederate topics (museum, memorials, etc.) I do not believe they should have it there.

I was listening to MSNBC about how some people are looking to remove the flag from cemeteries and the graves of Confederate soldiers because they're on public land. Now I think this is just crossing the line. I think that, even if someone died fighting for the Confederacy, if they were buried in an area where public funds are invested (similar to Arlington National Cemetery) I don't see why they should be barred from having the flag on their graves.

What say you?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:40 pm

Like the Nazi flag: in a museum.You won't find swastika flags on war cementaries in Germany, even if the soldiers fought under it.

Jan
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moo
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
Like the Nazi flag: in a museum.You won't find swastika flags on war cementaries in Germany, even if the soldiers fought under it.

Germany has fairly strict anti-Nazi laws in place tho, including banning the sale or glorification of the swastika in most circumstances (its been a right pain for model aircraft enthusiasts).

Such laws would not withstand the first amendment in the US.
 
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seb146
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:29 pm

I wrote something on FB about how a piece of cloth has only as much power as we give it. Nikki Haley signed the order to take down the battle flag of Northern Virginia army from the South Carolina state house and the comments were awful. I think the flag should stay around for private use. Partly to let the rest of us know who is racist and also to remind us how far we have come as a nation and how far we have yet to go.
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D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:27 pm

In a museum or a textbook.

Hell, maybe some of the people that fly it will then actually learn about it.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 3):

I wrote something on FB about how a piece of cloth has only as much power as we give it.

Well, clearly that's not true, since a majority of the people in this country don't think the flag has any potency at all, while others completely rally around it. So it's nice that you as an individual may not give it any power. Others will not necessarily follow your lead.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:59 pm

I have to admit I struggle with figuring this one out in my head.

On the one hand, I just can't really make myself care, on a personal level. But on the other hand, I understand it represents something that is VERY negative for a lot of people.

Flying it over state houses and public offices is stupid, though. I can't believe that ever happened in the first place.

Public cemetaries? Seems kinda pointless, but it doesn't bother me.

People flying it on their cars/houses/whatever? Go for it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 4):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 3):

I wrote something on FB about how a piece of cloth has only as much power as we give it.

Well, clearly that's not true, since a majority of the people in this country don't think the flag has any potency at all, while others completely rally around it. So it's nice that you as an individual may not give it any power. Others will not necessarily follow your lead.

Sounds to me like you're proving his point, rather than refuting it. Some people give said piece of cloth no power, while others give it a lot of power.
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us330
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
if they were buried in an area where public funds are invested (similar to Arlington National Cemetery)

Arlington National Cemetery has a Confederate Memorial, but they do not fly the flag. It's sort of a hidden secret that isn't openly advertised or talked about.

If you are ever there, walk past the amphitheater by Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, walk past the mast of the U.S.S. Maine, and you will find it towards the back of the cemetery, in a circular plot of grass.

The graves of the CSA dead are arranged to face the memorial, and their gravestones are engraved with "CSA."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_(Arlington_National_Cemetery)
 
luckyone
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
Flying it over state houses and public offices is stupid, though. I can't believe that ever happened in the first place.

"As a people we are fighting maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race;" -- William T. Thompson, designer of one of the three official confederate flags (none of which are the current "Confederate flag.") The fact that there are still an appreciable number of people who think this way, should tell you why so many had no problem with flying it in the first place.

I personally believe that private individuals should be allowed to fly the flag. But don't come whining when crap hits you in the face because you have attempted to falsely romanticize what the flag represents. I'm willing to bet that a significant majority of these individuals have no clue what the real Stars and Bars were, or that the "Confederate flag" as we know it was actually the Battle Flag of the armies of Virginia (first) then Tennessee, and unless you come from one of those states...flying that flag is a bit like me flying Empire of Japan's flag. It has ZERO place on government (aka state-sanctioned) property.
 
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 8):
The fact that there are still an appreciable number of people who think this way, should tell you why so many had no problem with flying it in the first place.

And even the battle flags had racist subtext.

The “Southern Cross” holds its place steadily in the Southern heart. It was in every mouth long before the war began; it remains in spite of all arguments against it. These arguments are ridiculous. First, we don’t see the Southern Cross in the heavens. Indeed! Do the British see the lion and the unicorn on the land or in the sea? Do the Austrians behold the double headed eagle anywhere in nature or out of it? What has seeing got to do with it? The truth is, we shall see the Southern Cross ere the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave is accomplished. That destiny does not stop short of the banks of the Amazon. The world of wonders in the animal and vegetable kingdom, of riches incalculable in the vast domain, watered by that gigantic stream, is the natural heritage of the Southron and his domestic slave. They alone can achieve its conquest and lay its untold wealth a tribute at the feet of commerce, the Queen consort of King Cotton.

-- George Bagby, “Editor’s Cable,” Southern Literary Messenger, January 1862, 68

[Edited 2015-07-10 12:27:22]
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
Sounds to me like you're proving his point, rather than refuting it. Some people give said piece of cloth no power, while others give it a lot of power.

And as long as the latter group exists, the flag will have power.

Sorry, but this is not a moment where you can ignore it and it will go away. It is a cancer. It is a swarm of rats. Ignore it and it will fester.
 
Ken777
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:01 pm

In terms of where the flag show be flown or shown from now own it is going to be a symbol of a racist, regardless of any other connotation one might want to give it. Not the best public declaration to make.

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
Arlington National Cemetery has a Confederate Memorial, but they do not fly the flag. It's sort of a hidden secret that isn't openly advertised or talked about.

That might be because Arlington National Cemetery is originally General Robert E Lee's home & land.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
And as long as the latter group exists, the flag will have power.

Of course.

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
Sorry, but this is not a moment where you can ignore it and it will go away.

Neither Seb nor I said that.
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D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
Sorry, but this is not a moment where you can ignore it and it will go away.

Neither Seb nor I said that.

Well, what other implication is there from the idea that "a piece of cloth has only as much power as we give it"? The obvious implication is that the reader should cease giving it power, is it not?
 
us330
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
That might be because Arlington National Cemetery is originally General Robert E Lee's home & land.

Except that the memorial was erected long after the property was originally used as a burial site for Civil War dead. There is no relation between the monument and the previous owner of land.
Lee isn't even buried on his former property. His tomb is located on the campus of Washington & Lee University in Lexington, Virginia.
 
BMI727
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK

Anywhere that isn't government property. If a private entity wants to fly an ISIS flag, I don't care.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:11 am

Privately? Anywhere. Publicly? As others have said, museums. I'd extend that to historical sites on a case to case basis. I've seen historical sites that have the flag of Great Britain or France or Spain and all the other countries a certain site has belonged to. If the flag can trace its significance to the war itself and not the influx of confederate flags that came about in the Civil Rights era, I'd be more inclined to be ok with it as long as it wasn't glorifying the CSA.

On a side note, what are they going to do with sites like Stone Mountain, GA? There are Confederate generals carved into the side of the mountain. Are we going to blast it away or modify it into non-Confederate generals? I have no love for the confederate flag or "glorifying the south" (as a southerner, I never really understood why it's such a big deal) but I wouldn't want them to destroy the Stone Mountain display. Maybe I'm being biased since I love Stone Mountain and have been there many times... hard to say what to do...
 
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):

History should not be altered or destroyed. Nobody should destroy the monuments such as Stone Mountain, it would be like book burning, denying what happened. A simple plaque would tell the story on Stone Mountain and other tribute sites. The war was fought, thousands died because of this flag and what it stood for. It should never be glorified or in position of honor which rises above or equals the U.S. flag. It is a symbol of a defeated rebellion. It should be in a Museum as other symbols of Tyranny are after they are defeated. A war trophy, nothing else.
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us330
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
History should not be altered or destroyed. Nobody should destroy the monuments such as Stone Mountain, it would be like book burning, denying what happened

Exactly. Do not erase. Explain and educate. Provide context. Relocate when necessary, but do not destroy.
 
luckyone
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I have no love for the confederate flag or "glorifying the south" (as a southerner, I never really understood why it's such a big deal) but I wouldn't want them to destroy the Stone Mountain display. Maybe I'm being biased since I love Stone Mountain and have been there many times... hard to say what to do...

I don't understand it anymore...but it required leaving the South for that to process (tangent, as I write this now that my marriage would be recognized I'm considering returning, and helping to change some things...sort of). I never realized what a bubble I was living in when I lived there. It's such a narcissistic society, so tender and sensitive about its past that all this bravado comes through in order to avoid dealing with the past, and in order for that mentality to perpetuate, it has to close in on itself. It was very difficult to get out of that. It's a society that as a whole does not encourage exploration outside its intellectual bounds. And I feel very sorry for people who are unable or aren't presented the opportunity to unlock themselves from that environment. Some people choose to stay in that space, and I feel that many others are institutionally discouraged from approaching the edge of that space, and like a lot of people never leave the comforts of what they know.

As for Stone Mountain, IMHO it should stay. There is a difference (and I'll admit that I'm talking about a very fine line) between preserving the memory of individuals who fought for their home, regardless of whether I disagree with why they fought, and government-sanctioned displays of the actual symbols of that fight, and what they represent. Now, as a native-born Georgian I do not want to see any celebration of the cause they fought for. Acknowledge who they are, what they were, and recognize it as a part of your history. And then move on. Heck, if the Germans can do it...anyone can.
 
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 18):
It's a society that as a whole does not encourage exploration outside its intellectual bounds.

Funny - that's exactly what I observed when I lived in southern California, about the people who lived there.
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:25 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
History should not be altered or destroyed. Nobody should destroy the monuments such as Stone Mountain, it would be like book burning, denying what happened.

  
We still have concentration and death camps standing, and you can not overestimate the effect it has to visit one. Want to see 20-year olds burst into tears about something they had no part in, that is the place to go.

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D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 19):

Quoting luckyone (Reply 18):
It's a society that as a whole does not encourage exploration outside its intellectual bounds.

Funny - that's exactly what I observed when I lived in southern California, about the people who lived there.


And I have the same feelings about Northern California from my time there.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
On the one hand, I just can't really make myself care, on a personal level. But on the other hand, I understand it represents something that is VERY negative for a lot of people.

Flying it over state houses and public offices is stupid, though. I can't believe that ever happened in the first place.

Public cemetaries? Seems kinda pointless, but it doesn't bother me.

People flying it on their cars/houses/whatever? Go for it.

This is my line of thinking. Public buildings (unless they are museums), I don't think so. Private land? Go crazy. Cemetery with a significant Confederate burials? Conflicted. I do not care; to me it's just a piece of cloth with no meaning, but for others it means another thing.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 19):
Quoting luckyone (Reply 18):
It's a society that as a whole does not encourage exploration outside its intellectual bounds.

Funny - that's exactly what I observed when I lived in southern California, about the people who lived there.

I think all places are like that. I don't think there are societies that encourage people to get outside their intellectual bounds. Each society tends to believe that THEIR way is the best and does not need changing, discouraging any attempts to change it. Of course, some are more inviting of change than others, but in the interest to preserve what has been (or regain what was) people are often told to keep their heads down and follow the herd.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ltbewr
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:37 pm

Clearly there is a social and political trend, most recently pushed to a new level from the massacre of 9 Black persons in a church in Charleston, SC, of the display of the CSA Battle Flag and other flags related to the CSA . It is deeply offensive to Black Americans and can no longer be tolerated with legal sanctions of display at places of honor by State and the Federal governments. There is also a trend to limit displays of it at some commercial/privately owned properties. The history of the CSA battle flag also includes from the 1930's a connection to white resistance to Federal laws and SCOTUS decisions that gradually ended official segeration of Blacks by state governments.

What is needed is a balance. Allow the placement of CSA Battle flags on the graves of those that died during the Civil War on the Federal Memorial Day, but not those that served but died later. Limit displays of flags of CSA government, the state flags of the CSA states used during the Civil War and related symbols in well understood historical context at Civil War battlefields and museums.
 
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:09 pm

Try as I might, I have a hard time understanding the support for the Confederate flag, especially from the South, from private individuals and elected officials alike.

Elected officials take an oath of office by which they pledge to defend the United States against foreign and domestic enemies. Southerners often claim to be more patriotic than most and know the Pledge of Allegiance by heart, by which they pledge allegiance to the Republic.

Yet the Confederation was clearly a domestic enemy of the United States and a threat to the Republic. Even if the Confederate flag came without its racial history, I still wouldn't understand how one can fly the Confederate flag and be a loyal American citizen at the same time. That doesn't mean I'd deny them the right to fly the flag, but I simply don't get it.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
People flying it on their cars/houses/whatever? Go for it.

I share the same sentiment, but I'd add that it gives me permission to judge them, and I judge them as I judge individuals who choose to fly the Nazi flag. They cannot choose which element of Southern history they wish to honor by displaying the flag anymore than anyone who claims to fly the Nazi flag exclusively out of respect for pre-war Germany's influence.
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
History should not be altered or destroyed. Nobody should destroy the monuments such as Stone Mountain, it would be like book burning, denying what happened.

Huh?

You know what's like book burning? Book burning.

I haven't made up my mind on taking down the Stone Mountain sculptures, but doing so would be nothing like book burning. Book burning erases events from the history so that no one knows it even happened. Taking down the Stone Mountain scultures in no way takes it out of the history books and museums that documented its existence.

Let's put it this way: should they have taken down the statues of Stalin? Of Saddam? Was it book burning when they did?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 24):
and know the Pledge of Allegiance by heart

Most of the people that know it by heart don't actually understand the words it is saying. They break it up into little pieces that kindergartners can remember. Like this:
1. (I pledge allegiance)
2. (to the flag)
3. (of the United States of America)(period)
4. (And to the republic)
5. (for which it stands)
6. (one nation)
7. (under God)
8. (indivisible)
9. (for liberty and justice for all)(period)

I think these people think hard about #s 1 2 and 3, and maybe 7, while ignoring the meaning of 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 25):
I haven't made up my mind on taking down the Stone Mountain sculptures

It's not like a statue that you can simply take down and move to a museum or on private property. You would have to destroy it. Again, maybe it's just a GA boy's bias but I really like Stone Mountain and its sculpture even if I don't like what it stands for.

It is history, it's not a museum but it fits the same role IMO. I have no love for the CSA but it is indeed part of our history, every tiny trace of it doesn't need to be removed. It was a dark period in our nation's history, one that should be remembered. Something confederate here and there reminds us of that point IMO
 
D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
Something confederate here and there reminds us of that point IMO

That's what textbooks and museums are for. Stone mountain and all the statues etc. are veneration.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:30 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 20):
We still have concentration and death camps standing, and you can not overestimate the effect it has to visit one. Want to see 20-year olds burst into tears about something they had no part in, that is the place to go.

I have no doubt about that. I have never been, but I know some who have. They have said the same thing. It is fitting they still stand to remind the youth. I feel the same about the Confederate Flag. It was raised to support a great evil. It should be a reminder of that evil, nothing else.
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WarRI1
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 25):
Huh?

You know what's like book burning? Book burning.

I haven't made up my mind on taking down the Stone Mountain sculptures, but doing so would be nothing like book burning. Book burning erases events from the history so that no one knows it even happened. Taking down the Stone Mountain scultures in no way takes it out of the history books and museums that documented its existence.




A ridiculous reply. I used book burning as an example of trying to change, modify, erase history, nothing more, nothing less. All that is needed is one book to survive, or one person to read the book and remember. Certainly not an absolute as you portray. Changing history is not wise if one is trying to teach future generations.
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D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 29):
A ridiculous reply. I used book burning as an example of trying to change, modify, erase history, nothing more, nothing less. All that is needed is one book to survive, or one person to read the book and remember. Certainly not an absolute as you portray.

It was a very apt reply to a ridiculous analogy.

No one here is saying that we should avoid teaching about the confederates' true role in history (other than the State of Texas). In Nazi Germany, they burned books in order to eradicate certain things from the public knowledge. Remember, this was before the internet, and book burning and other written censorship was a pretty good way to prevent an entire area of people from knowing something.

How can you possibly think removing the Stone Mountain sculptures would be the same?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 29):
Changing history is not wise if one is trying to teach future generations.

Removing the statues does not "change history." It stops venerating confederates when there is no place in today's America for their veneration.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:51 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 25):

9. (for liberty and justice for all)(period)

With liberty and justice, I think you mean  

With regards to the discussion of Stone Mountain, there's another aspect that I'm surprised nobody has brought up. That being that the bas-relief was funded largely by the KKK and that Stone Mountain itself was a venerated site by the Klan as it marks the birthplace of the second iteration of the Klan. Indeed, the original owner of Stone Mountain, prior to its purchase by the State of Georgia, granted the Klan a perpetual easement to use Stone Mountain for ceremonies whenever they wished. That easement went away with the purchase by the State of Georgia. That combined with the enshrinement of not only Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee but also Jefferson Davis on the mountain makes me wonder, not to invoke Godwin, what we'd have done to a monument in post-World War II Germany that was the site of SS ceremonies as well as featuring a similar bas-relief of Hitler, Guderian, and Rommel.
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PHX787
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:55 am

I personally don't want it on public property or business property. If it is a non-government funded business (i.e., receiving gov. tax breaks, loans, etc) then they have all rights to fly it.

same with private individuals on their own land.


That flag to me is the sign of the ultimate redneck d-bag, so seeing a flag on their property = not gonna shop there or give any respect towards that individual. It's like they're self-labling, and allows me to not have to do any research on them.
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WarRI1
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 30):
Removing the statues does not "change history." It stops venerating confederates when there is no place in today's America for their veneration.

Of course there is, it is called freedom. You like it, or you do not, Which I do not, it is your right to think as you want in this country. The people who built this monument thought it was a just cause. We do not, that is our right. Erasing this monument to an evil cause will not change thoughts, but it will change historical fact. The fact that many people, our fellow Americans thought these people were Hero's for their cause and wanted to honor them. This started as a private development, later bought by the state. The American flag flies over this mountain, that in itself is an historical lesson. Our cause was just. Theirs was not. They lost the war. You can look at these figures on the mountain and according to your convictions think what you will. It is our right. Just my thoughts on the subject.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:47 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 27):
That's what textbooks and museums are for. Stone mountain and all the statues etc. are veneration.

So chisel it away? I'm not convinced that all controversial things need to be confined to a building we call a museum. Some sites are historic, some of them can be museum-ish. A random small park in the middle of a city in AL with a confederate general statue? Yeah, take it down. Having a confederate flag on Ft Sumter? A pretty famous sculpture on the side of a mountain (Stone Mountain?) A fort that flies the Spanish flag, British flag, the CSA flag, and the USA flag, symbolizing all the flags that flew over a fort?

I don't think these are all necessarily wrong. I'm willing to argue them out on a case to case basis. I'm not saying I support the CSA flag over Fort Sumter, I haven't really thought of it, but flying the CSA flag over the fort that started the devastating Civil War? I don't see that as crazy, I see it as a somber, strong reminder of the past, and not necessarily glorifying the CSA and slavery.

I'll even go further and say that it is not wrong to have confederate flags on confederate graves. Do we see Nazi flags on Nazi graves? No, so I guess that is one argument against it. I don't know, I don't see it as a black and white issue. Some things are pretty obviously unacceptable (flying the confederate flag over the SC capital) but on the other end of the spectrum you can get pretty ridiculous too
 
D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 33):
The people who built this monument thought it was a just cause.

Not only were they wrong, but they are also dead.

Why do we have to give half a damn about what those dead people think? We don't. They are irrelevant.

And you can't really believe what you said about leaving it because they thought it was just. What if the mountain were engraved "F black people?" We know from Garnetpalmetto's post that is what the people that commissioned that sculpture thought. Do we just say, "well, that's what they thought, so even though I disagree with it, oh well, it's cool?"

Missing from your rant was that this was ab initio a KKK grounds. Does knowing that not alter your opinion in any way?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
So chisel it away?

I wasn't convinced, but WarRI1 is helping me reach a conclusion.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
Not only were they wrong, but they are also dead.

Exactly, part of history.

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
They are irrelevant.

No they are not, they are woven into our history. Never to be forgotten.

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
Missing from your rant was that this was ab initio a KKK grounds.

Well aware of that fact. A hate group, one of many in this country. All part of the history of this country. Are we to rip, tear, destroy all evidence of our past history of hatred and racism? How will the next generation learn and see what took place in our past history? Leave the mountain as is, let it show how far the haters of men will go to glorify their cauae., evil as it was. Educate the youth , show them the monumental evidence up close. I do not think it says F the black people on the mountain, so that is not an issue. It's intent is not honorable for sure. Those who know not history are doomed to repeat it.
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Beardown91737
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:30 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
On a side note, what are they going to do with sites like Stone Mountain, GA? There are Confederate generals carved into the side of the mountain. Are we going to blast it away or modify it into non-Confederate generals? I have no love for the confederate flag or "glorifying the south" (as a southerner, I never really understood why it's such a big deal) but I wouldn't want them to destroy the Stone Mountain display. Maybe I'm being biased since I love Stone Mountain and have been there many times... hard to say what to do...

Do we want to do anything which reminds the world of the Taliban and the Buddha carvings? Not the same at all, but we should stand for free speech no matter how much we can't stand it.

.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
NAV30
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:37 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
Well aware of that fact. A hate group, one of many in this country.

Having once taught history, and met up with some fellow historians on several visits to the South, I have to point out that, as I understand it, the undoubted 'hatred' arguably did not emerge from 'thin air.'

Prior to the Civil War, a huge number of people in the South were unemployed 'poor whites' - why would landowners in the South pay white people to work for them when there were ample 'supplies' of virtually-captive blacks who were only too glad to work on a subsistence basis only? As I understand it, that is why the Southern leaders had no problem assembling large and 'highly-motivated' armies; and the North was unable, at first, to form armies with anything like the same level of motivation?

Call it an army motivated by 'hatred' if you like - but, as far as I know, the initial motivation of Southern recruits was much more chronic financial need, rather than any sort of 'hatred.' At first, anyway.........

[Edited 2015-07-13 23:41:38]
 
na
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:12 pm

The only places where the Southern Cross should be seen is in museums, school and history books and at reenactor events.
Its a symbol of racism like few others in the world. No individual should be allowed to display it where others can see it, and no community should show it all.
Sometimes you can see the flag here in Germany. Mainly on old American cars at Classic car shows. I always felt somewhat irritated by it and I hope not to see it again.
 
D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
Exactly, part of history.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
No they are not, they are woven into our history. Never to be forgotten.

And what part of removing the sculpture removes history? That's what I think you're not getting.

Have you ever seen this sculpture in person? If not, how do you know it exists? You know it exists because of all of the literature out there that tells of its existence. And besides that, you don't need to see it in person to know who Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis were. In fact, you don't need to see it in person to know that some people venerated those three men. BEING ABLE TO SEE IT IN PERSON OR NOT HAS NO BEARING ON ITS EXISTENCE IN HISTORY, and nothing at all that you have said changes that.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
How will the next generation learn and see what took place in our past history?

In a textbook.


I'l ask you again: should they have taken down the statues of Stalin? Of Saddam?

Look, you would be right if this thing were actually USED by confederates. I'm not at all in favor of removing Appomattox Courthouse, or building on famous battlefield lands. These are museums where people can visit and actually see the settings in which everything happened. Here in Virginia, there are LOTS of reminders of the civil war. (Perhaps there aren't so many in Rhode Island.) But there is a big difference between keeping a historical record, and protecting a shrine to the traitors that was dedicated a hundred years after their deaths.

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 37):
Do we want to do anything which reminds the world of the Taliban and the Buddha carvings?

Are you comparing a religious relic to traitors and the Klan?

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 37):
Not the same at all, but we should stand for free speech no matter how much we can't stand it.

This is not a free speech issue.

[Edited 2015-07-14 08:47:39]

[Edited 2015-07-14 08:49:20]
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 37):
Do we want to do anything which reminds the world of the Taliban and the Buddha carvings? Not the same at all, but we should stand for free speech no matter how much we can't stand it.

  

Another horrible example of removing history so it will not be available to future generations.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 38):
Having once taught history, and met up with some fellow historians on several visits to the South, I have to point out that, as I understand it, the undoubted 'hatred' arguably did not emerge from 'thin air.'

Prior to the Civil War, a huge number of people in the South were unemployed 'poor whites' - why would landowners in the South pay white people to work for them when there were ample 'supplies' of virtually-captive blacks who were only too glad to work on a subsistence basis only? As I understand it, that is why the Southern leaders had no problem assembling large and 'highly-motivated' armies; and the North was unable, at first, to form armies with anything like the same level of motivation?

Call it an army motivated by 'hatred' if you like - but, as far as I know, the initial motivation of Southern recruits was much more chronic financial need, rather than any sort of 'hatred.' At first, anyway.........

The same conditions economically exist even today in the US . Economic slavery then and now. I sure hope Pope Francis spells it all out. We have plenty of deniers around as usual.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:18 pm

I didn't know those carvings so took a look at wikipedia, and not only where they commissioned by the KKK, but they were only finished in 1972, with the help of the state. Not exactly historic in my book.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):

I didn't know those carvings so took a look at wikipedia, and not only where they commissioned by the KKK, but they were only finished in 1972, with the help of the state. Not exactly historic in my book.

  
The more I think about it, the less Stone Mountain should be seen as the poster child for keeping confederate relics. It entered modern life in almost exactly the same way as the confederate flag did, which of course was reintroduced in response to civil rights.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):


I didn't know those carvings so took a look at wikipedia, and not only where they commissioned by the KKK, but they were only finished in 1972, with the help of the state. Not exactly historic in my book.

Exactly. The comparison to the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas is just wrong on multiple levels. The Buddhas stood for nearly 1500 years and had great historical and religious significance. The Stone Mountain bas-relief doesn't. The whole "Laser show in mountain view" while tacky, could still continue on even without Jeff, Bobby, and Tommy looking down on the crowds.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:57 pm

United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Japan, Australia and many other countries were racist. Should we change these flags too?

When I see British flag, I think of all the injustices they did to Indians, Irish people, Aboriginals, English people and the Africans. Perhaps British flag should have its future in museums too.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
I'l ask you again: should they have taken down the statues of Stalin? Of Saddam?

That's up to the countries and their citizens.

Really, my only issue with Stone Mountain is that it's owned by the State of Georgia. If it were on private land, I wouldn't care.

How about Robert E. Lee's statue in the National Statuary Hall in the U.S. Capitol Building?

Quoting ALexeu (Reply 45):
United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Japan, Australia and many other countries were racist. Should we change these flags too? When I see British flag, I think of all the injustices they did to Indians, Irish people, Aboriginals, English people and the Africans. Perhaps British flag should have its future in museums too.

You realize that the Confederate Flag doesn't actually represent a nation anymore, right?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
D L X
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 46):
Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
I'l ask you again: should they have taken down the statues of Stalin? Of Saddam?

That's up to the countries and their citizens.

That's really not an answer to the question though. If you were they, would you take down those statues?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 46):
How about Robert E. Lee's statue in the National Statuary Hall in the U.S. Capitol Building?

I think it's about as fitting as would be a statue of Benedict Arnold.
 
bhill
Posts: 1708
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:28 pm

Removing them is silly...just do not replace them. Here is what I do not understand..Why on Earth anyone would want to fly any flag of the losing team is stupid....constant reminder that you support losers....
Carpe Pices
 
ALexeu
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RE: Confederate Battle Flag: Where Is It OK?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 46):

You realize that the Confederate Flag doesn't actually represent a nation anymore, right?

But it represents rebel against centralized gov't more than anything. Paradoxically, the flag now represents liberty and freedom. And it also represents the South, it's people, culture and history. Yes it was racist at one time, but it became a completely different symbol now.

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