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Bongodog1964
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 46):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 39):
Thats the Kashmir war, partition was the really nasty part whereby Muslims gravitated towards Pakistan and Hindus towards India

You can't 'have it both ways,' Bongodog1964?

I think you've misunderstood my stance on this

The majority of the partition death toll was after Independence, in many ways it was the forerunner of what subsequently happened in many other Countries.
Whilst colonised the local population have a common enemy to fight, with them gone, they then start reverting to tribal/cultural/religious backgrounds and fighting each other.

The then British Government were between a rock and a hard place, India was demanding independence and having been almost brought to its knees by 6 years of war was in no place to conduct an orderly withdrawal from India. It would have been best, considering that India was a Country with two major religions somewhat intermingled it would have been good if a permanent arrangement could have been reached for them to all live together in peace and harmony, instead it was divided into firstly two and then three nations on the basis of religion with lots of people being displaced.
Ghandi and Co were the ones pushing for immediate independence and should bear the responsibility for the chaos that ensued.
 
us330
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 21):
'The Ghosts of King Leopold'

It's a good book, but it does have some flaws. Mainly in it's portrayal of Stanley.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 21):
You will, at the same time, lose any rose tinted image you may have had of Stanley (he of Dr. Livingstone fame); he was nothing but a glorified slave driver

I would highly suggest you read Tim Jeal's magnificent biography of Stanley, which is one of the best books I've ever read. He was far from "a glorified slave driver" and by the standards of the time, he was actually much more friendly to the Africans he encountered on his expeditions. He actually took relatively good care of the Africans he employed on his expeditions, and helped end the Indian Ocean/East African slave trade that was carried out by figures like Tippu Tip.

Jeal specifically refutes Hochschild's depiction of Stanley by relying on previously unavailable sources that reveal that Stanley's heroic image was used by Leopold II and the Congo Free State as a cover for their actual activities, even though Stanley had little to do with what actually took place in the CFS
 
IADCA
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 47):
You seem to hold the assumption that the Indian people were in a position to vote for or against Churchill in an election. Heck, we had to fight just to vote for one of our own. From our perspective he was very much the dictator du jour of our land - someone arbitrarily foisted upon us, who ruled by fiat. That is the very technical definition of a dictator.

No, I don't hold that assumption. A dictator is not beholden to a legislature, which Churchill was. Granted, not one in which your countrymen had any say, but blaming him alone when there were plenty of other decisionmakers involved seems like a bit of an intentional targeting rather than actual fair apportionment of blame. Nobody denies that Churchill did not like Indian people and that he did not take steps to prevent the famine. That doesn't equate to being a dictator. He was the head of a colonial power that indifferently stood by in the face of multiple competing priorities while large numbers of people starved, probably based on a heavy dose of racism. But the fact that shortly afterward his party lost an election (in the UK, of course) and was replaced by a different prime minister seems to give the lie to being a dictator.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 48):
Are you seriously suggesting that if the Japanese had succeeded in capturing Bengal, they would have poured in food supplies?

No, I'm asserting that your arguments are hypotheticals that depend on 'would', 'could'. This quoted sentence is yet another 'would'. I'm solely focusing on what actually happened:
* Churchill was the final executive authority for the territory of India
* During the time he was in charge, he presided over the death of 4 million
As you can see, I'm not debating revisionist possibilities. I'm speaking in definitives, not hypotheticals.

Your defense focuses on what could have happened otherwise. My argument focuses on asserting what actually happened. Mine is a stronger argument because it's a statement of fact. It's really logically straightforward.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 48):
You appear to be saying that that was Britain's fault? But surely, if anyone was to blame, it was the Japanese?

I'll accept that if you accept that the Jewish Holocaust was the fault of Britain/France/US . Why ? Because they pushed Germany into a corner in Versailles, humiliating a proud nation and causing a vengeful maniac to bubble to the surface.

See, that's the problem with this passing the buck. When you're in charge, you get the accolades, and the blame. Don't pass it on.

You are also so wrapped up in your cognitive dissonance that you do not see the obvious insult here: I'd like you listen with a straight face to a German claiming "yeah well those Jews died, but you guys were all attacking us and I got really upset and took it out on them. It's not my fault. It's your fault for humiliating me and then attacking me." See if you can swallow that with a straight face, the way you claim "yeah yeah they died, but the Japanese were attacking. It's their fault." You'd probably lynch any German who dares to make such a claim. I hope there'll one day be enough civility for the holocaust in Bengal to be viewed with as much sensitivity.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 52):
Granted, not one in which your countrymen had any say, but blaming him alone when there were plenty of other decisionmakers

You heard the phrase "the buck stops here" ? Churchill was the PM, and head of the British forces. Mountbatten reported to him. Would you concurrently argue that the blame lay with Goring, Eichmann etc and not Hitler ? After all, Adolf didn't actually hold a gun and herd people into the ovens. Your argument applies to every other case. It wasn't all Mao's, Pol Pots, Saddam's, Churchill's or Hitler's fault - sure there were plenty of others, and plenty of external factors affecting their actions.

The common factor for why they get the blame is the same: They. Were. In. Charge.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:32 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 53):
I'll accept that if you accept that the Jewish Holocaust was the fault of Britain/France/US . Why ? Because they pushed Germany into a corner in Versailles, humiliating a proud nation and causing a vengeful maniac to bubble to the surface.

Uhhh... the Holocaust was a determined and planned execution of people for their religion. The famine in India wasn't planned. Not much of an attempt to stop it, but Churchill didn't order famine.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 53):
You are also so wrapped up in your cognitive dissonance that you do not see the obvious insult here: I'd like you listen with a straight face to a German claiming "yeah well those Jews died, but you guys were all attacking us and I got really upset and took it out on them. It's not my fault. It's your fault for humiliating me and then attacking me." See if you can swallow that with a straight face, the way you claim "yeah yeah they died, but the Japanese were attacking. It's their fault." You'd probably lynch any German who dares to make such a claim. I hope there'll one day be enough civility for the holocaust in Bengal to be viewed with as much sensitivity.

The Holocaust was the result of one man's hatred for Jewish people. Hitler had desired their demise long before WWII started. Not any comparison.

I kindly request that you stop this anyway. The thread is about Dictators who killed the most.
 
NAV30
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 50):
I think you've misunderstood my stance on this

Yes, Bongodog1964, misunderstanding - apologies...........
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:34 am

Quoting iakobos (Reply 34):

Wether or not Leopold II ordered violent acts is, quite frankly, irrelevant. The Congo Free State was a personal domain of Leopold, and the deaths that happened -- undisputedly in the millions -- were his responsibility.


The ten million figure is a ballpark number, since there are no records whatsoever -- and no one claims that these people were outright slaughtered; rather, that millions perished due to the exploitative nature of Leopold's actions in the Congo.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 53):
You heard the phrase "the buck stops here" ? Churchill was the PM, and head of the British forces. Mountbatten reported to him. Would you concurrently argue that the blame lay with Goring, Eichmann etc and not Hitler ? After all, Adolf didn't actually hold a gun and herd people into the ovens. Your argument applies to every other case. It wasn't all Mao's, Pol Pots, Saddam's, Churchill's or Hitler's fault - sure there were plenty of others, and plenty of external factors affecting their actions.

This is fairly absurd. The failures of a government to provide can't be equated to the intentional massacre of citizens.

I'm fine with refocusing the public dialogue about the root causes of the famine and indicting previously inviolable people, but this line of thinking goes far beyond that. I'm sorry, it just doesn't make sense.

Also, there's the issue that Churchill was not a dictator, but rather the elected head of a colonial power. I'd argue that a root cause of the Famine were structural issues over which Churchill had limited power (and which he certainly did not institute).

[Edited 2015-07-24 04:40:38]
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tommy1808
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
Wether or not Leopold II ordered violent acts is, quite frankly, irrelevant. The Congo Free State was a personal domain of Leopold, and the deaths that happened -- undisputedly in the millions -- were his responsibility.

he knew what was going on in his land, first time crimes like that have been widely reported in the media. He didn't send an order to stop it.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
and no one claims that these people were outright slaughtered; rather,

no, they only got slaughtered if they fail to meet their impossible quotas, or if they actually killed a Kautschuk plant. Or if they said no to slave labour in the first place and had their whole village slaughtered. Denial seems to be big in Belgium, I find it noteworthy that articles about the atrocities in the Congo Free State on Wikipedia only exist in German and English, but neither in French or dutch.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
diverted
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 41):
No, but I will. Around 4,500 killed in the WTC on Sept 11th just so he could invade Afghanistan

I'm not going to touch Sep 11, as it'll get out of hand, but I think we can all agree that the whole war in Iraq was well deserving of mention. Him and Rumsfeld had the Iraq war on their minds before the election was over.

Even with all that time to prepare the media blitz about how Saddam was involved with Al-Qaeda, and was ready to gas and or nuke a bunch of people, they couldn't figure out what to do once all of the "Shock and Awe" part was over.

Great way to gain support of the locals? Take the army, and dissolve it. All of a sudden you've left a bunch of disenfranchised military aged males with guns and army training. One could definitely make the case that the Bush family/administrations are responsible for the deaths going on in Iraq to this day, and the creation of ISIS/ISIL/whatever those filthy scum rats are calling themselves these days.
 
NAV30
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
It wasn't all Mao's, Pol Pots, Saddam's, Churchill's or Hitler's fault

Have to register a mild protest at Churchill being 'lumped in' with all those other (downright evil) guys.

Given that from 1940 to 1942, Britain and the Commonwealth (led by Churchill) were just about the ONLY people who opposed Hitler and Mussolini? It's no exaggeration to say that, had they not done so, Europe (and quite a lot of the rest of the world) would have ended up in what Churchill himself called "a new dark Age.'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKOuS0pmEEk
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:00 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 57):
he knew what was going on in his land, first time crimes like that have been widely reported in the media. He didn't send an order to stop it.

  

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 57):
no, they only got slaughtered if they fail to meet their impossible quotas, or if they actually killed a Kautschuk plant. Or if they said no to slave labour in the first place and had their whole village slaughtered

Absolutely. I only meant to say that all the deaths were not executions or the like.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 57):
Denial seems to be big in Belgium, I find it noteworthy that articles about the atrocities in the Congo Free State on Wikipedia only exist in German and English, but neither in French or dutch.

If that's true - not saying it isn't, just that my French is awful - that's very amusing and not at all surprising.
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bmacleod
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 41):
Quoting gkirk (Reply 40):
Has nobody mentioned George Dubya Bush yet?

No, but I will. Around 4,500 killed in the WTC on Sept 11th just so he could invade Afghanistan.

How exactly is George W Bush a dictator?   

And it was Bin Laden and Al Qaeda who killed around 3000 in the WTC and Pentagon, not 4,500.

[Edited 2015-07-24 06:16:52]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
na
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 53):
* Churchill was the final executive authority for the territory of India
* During the time he was in charge, he presided over the death of 4 million
As you can see, I'm not debating revisionist possibilities. I'm speaking in definitives, not hypotheticals.

The main point is not that Churchill didnt react in time altough that was a major factor. The main reason however was that simply ther was not enough transport available to bring enough food to Bengal. Much of the rail transport was used for transporting troops, guns, fuel to the borders attacked by the Japanese. Shipping, responsible for much of the food import to Bengal, was reduced by 50% due to sinking by the Japanese and taking away capacity for even more pressing issues than hunger (yes, defending a country from a cruel and reckless enemy can be even more important!). Add to it the millions of refugees who came in to that region from the east. Many, if not the most who died during the famine died from disease, malaria etc. due to flooding and other reasons. It was a wartime tragedy before anything else. Negligence is what can be laid on Churchill´s doorstep, but not a deliberate crime.

Btw where came Churchill´s hatred for the Indians come from? What bad experiences did he make?

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
This is fairly absurd. The failures of a government to provide can't be equated to the intentional massacre of citizens.

Well said.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
I'd argue that a root cause of the Famine were structural issues over which Churchill had limited power (and which he certainly did not institute).

Again, well put.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 60):
If that's true - not saying it isn't, just that my French is awful - that's very amusing and not at all surprising.

That would be indeed odd and a reason for questioning. On the other hand the biggest hero of France even today was the worst war criminal in European history before Hitler.
 
iakobos
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
Wether or not Leopold II ordered violent acts is, quite frankly, irrelevant. The Congo Free State was a personal domain of Leopold, and the deaths that happened -- undisputedly in the millions -- were his responsibility.

He understood that there were abuses (far) exceeding what could be seen as "normal" at the time and place.
The thorough and remarkable report of the 1904 commission, ordered by Leopold, bears testimony.
Polish your French and you will be surprised.

Contrary to what seem to be the angle-Saxon (superficial) understanding there is no denial at all.
There are piles of French and Dutch studies and books on that facet of Belgian history with conclusions ranging from one extreme to the other. I can provide a shortlist.

A bit of rational thinking would lead one to understand that 175 guys (number of CFS servants begin 1890's), even 4,000 at the 1908 transition, established in a few posts along the river and with 95% of the country unexplored, and desperately in need of labor (!) would not have killed "millions". Simple enough ?
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 59):
Have to register a mild protest at Churchill being 'lumped in' with all those other (downright evil) guys.

Well more than a mild protest is in order -- except that I never said that. Bloody A.net...

Quoting na (Reply 62):
The main reason however was that simply ther was not enough transport available to bring enough food to Bengal.

Even then, Churchill's responsibility on that particular matter was, I'd argue, limited -- the massive bureaucracy that constituted the colonial government was responsible for the day to day, and I think a great deal of the blame lies there.


Quoting na (Reply 62):
It was a wartime tragedy before anything else. Negligence is what can be laid on Churchill´s doorstep, but not a deliberate crime.

  
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tommy1808
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 63):
and desperately in need of labor (!) would not have killed "millions". Simple enough ?

well, I guess the Holocaust didn't happen then.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 63):
there is no denial at all.

and that in the same post in which you just denied it happened. Classic.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 63):
e understood that there were abuses (far) exceeding what could be seen as "normal" at the time and place.
The thorough and remarkable report of the 1904 commission, ordered by Leopold, bears testimony.
Polish your French and you will be surprised.

I don't need to understand French too well to read the British diplomat Roger Casement's report, which was the impetus for Leopold to look inward. Even then, he didn't relinquish the CFS until 1908, which makes me doubt the integrity of his intentions.

Because there was no census in the CFS, it is indeed impossible to know the death toll. However--and what you seem to repeatedly ignore--is that consensus amongst historians puts the killings at the very least in the single digit millions. And, again -- a great deal of the deaths came about due to indirect actions by the colonizing forces; famines, disease, etc. These are all attributable to Leopold, wether you like it or not.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 63):
A bit of rational thinking would lead one to understand that 175 guys (number of CFS servants begin 1890's), even 4,000 at the 1908 transition, established in a few posts along the river and with 95% of the country unexplored, and desperately in need of labor (!) would not have killed "millions". Simple enough ?

This logic doesn't make too much sense. The historically-accepted practice of cutting off people's hands seems to contradict the notion that the colonizers gave half a damn about preserving their labor force.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 63):
Contrary to what seem to be the angle-Saxon (superficial) understanding there is no denial at all.

No denial at all? From my superficial standpoint, that doesn't make too much sense in this context, but so be it.
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rwessel
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 57):
I find it noteworthy that articles about the atrocities in the Congo Free State on Wikipedia only exist in German and English, but neither in French or dutch.

While there's not a separate article for the French and Dutch Wikipedia's about the Atrocities in the Congo Free State, it's discussed in both of those Wiki's articles on the Congo Free State:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tat_ind%C3%A9pendant_du_Congo

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo-Vrijstaat
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:58 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 47):
He could have abdicated responsibility, in which case those deaths or the consequence of a Japanese invasion would be someone else's responsibility

So.... you are saying you would have preferred to have been invaded by the Japanese instead? Because thats surely what would have happened if Churchill and Britain abdicated their responsibility towards India and allowed it to become independent in 1942. I think you greatly disrespect all those Commonwealth soldiers who lost their lives fighting for your liberty.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 59):
Mussolini

Probably barely factors in compared to Hitler & Stalin, but this guy deserves a mention too.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
NAV30
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:37 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 68):
Probably barely factors in compared to Hitler & Stalin,

Italy suffered a great deal in WW2, YVRLTN. About 300,000 military deaths, and 150,000 civilian ones - about the same level of casualties as Britain. And the Italians distinguished themselves by throwing out Mussolini in 1943, joining the Allied side, and helping to finish off Hitler and his gang. I hope you'll agree that they 'deserve a mention.'  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

[Edited 2015-07-24 22:42:16]
 
us330
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 56):
The ten million figure is a ballpark number, since there are no records whatsoever -- and no one claims that these people were outright slaughtered; rather, that millions perished due to the exploitative nature of Leopold's actions in the Congo.

They tried to keep some semblance of records in a rather gruesome way: Belgian troops in the Force Publique were forced to keep track of every bullet that they used, and one way that they did was by cutting the hand off the Congolese that was killed by said bullet. Of course, not all bullets were used to kill Congolese, so some times the troops would cut off the hand of a living Congolese instead.

This account comes from "King Leopold's Ghost" and there are photos in the book that demonstrate that such actions occurred.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 54):
Uhhh... the Holocaust was a determined and planned execution of people for their religion. The famine in India wasn't planned. Not much of an attempt to stop it, but Churchill didn't order famine.

The same applies to Mao and Stalin. They didn't order 'go starve X million people' in the Great Leap Forward, or the Holodomor. They clucked up exactly the same way as Churchill did.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 54):
The Holocaust was the result of one man's hatred for Jewish people. Hitler had desired their demise long before WWII started. Not any comparison.

Here's previously quoted reference material about Churchill's hatred:
www.tehelka.com/2014/06/remembering-indias-forgotten-holocaust/
http://www.ibtimes.com/bengal-famine-1943-man-made-holocaust-1100525
What is remarkable about the scale of the disaster is its time span. World War II was at its peak and the Germans were rampaging across Europe, targeting Jews, Slavs and the Roma for extermination. It took Adolf Hitler and his Nazi cohorts 12 years to round up and murder 6 million Jews, but their Teutonic cousins, the British, managed to kill almost 4 million Indians in just over a year, with Prime Minister Winston Churchill cheering from the sidelines.

Australian biochemist Dr Gideon Polya has called the Bengal Famine a “manmade holocaust” because Churchill’s policies were directly responsible for the disaster. Bengal had a bountiful harvest in 1942, but the British started diverting vast quantities of food grain from India to Britain, contributing to a massive food shortage in the areas comprising present-day West Bengal, Odisha, Bihar and Bangladesh.

Author Madhusree Mukerjee tracked down some of the survivors and paints a chilling picture of the effects of hunger and deprivation. In Churchill’s Secret War, she writes: “Parents dumped their starving children into rivers and wells. Many took their lives by throwing themselves in front of trains. Starving people begged for the starchy water in which rice had been boiled. Children ate leaves and vines, yam stems and grass. People were too weak even to cremate their loved ones.”

Churchill could easily have prevented the famine. Even a few shipments of food grain would have helped, but the British prime minister adamantly turned down appeals from two successive Viceroys, his own Secretary of State for India and even the President of the US .

Subhas Chandra Bose, who was then fighting on the side of the Axis forces, offered to send rice from Myanmar, but the British censors did not even allow his offer to be reported.

Churchill was totally remorseless in diverting food to the British troops and Greek civilians. To him, “the starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis (was) less serious than sturdy Greeks”, a sentiment with which Secretary of State for India and Burma, Leopold Amery, concurred.

Amery was an arch-colonialist and yet he denounced Churchill’s “Hitler-like attitude”. Urgently beseeched by Amery and the then Viceroy Archibald Wavell to release food stocks for India, Churchill responded with a telegram asking why Gandhi hadn’t died yet.

Wavell informed London that the famine “was one of the greatest disasters that has befallen any people under British rule”. He said when Holland needs food, “ships will of course be available, quite a different answer to the one we get whenever we ask for ships to bring food to India”.

Churchill’s excuse — currently being peddled by his family and supporters — was Britain could not spare the ships to transport emergency supplies, but Mukerjee has unearthed documents that challenge his claim. She cites official records that reveal ships carrying grain from Australia bypassed India on their way to the Mediterranean.

Churchill’s hostility toward Indians has long been documented. At a War Cabinet meeting, he blamed the Indians themselves for the famine, saying they “breed like rabbits”. His attitude toward Indians may be summed up in his words to Amery: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.” On another occasion, he insisted they were “the beastliest people in the world next to the Germans”.


Quoting NAV30 (Reply 59):
Given that from 1940 to 1942, Britain and the Commonwealth (led by Churchill) were just about the ONLY people who opposed Hitler and Mussolini? It's no exaggeration to say that, had they not done so, Europe (and quite a lot of the rest of the world) would have ended up in what Churchill himself called "a new dark Age.'?

A possibly touching sentiment that I would care of, if the British under Churchill weren't killing as many in India as the Germans were in Europe. In fact, your argument is precisely what is quoted above - that the survival of Europeans is more important than that of Indians, and that the latter can justifiably be genocided to save Europeans.

Read the quoted material above, to appreciate the beast you're defending. It's the same predicament a defender of Mao faces. A man who fought for reunification of the Chinese nation, and also killed millions of them while running it.

Quoting na (Reply 62):
The main reason however was that simply ther was not enough transport available to bring enough food to Bengal.

Formal research proves otherwise. See the quoted material above. No, this was an explicit 'leave them to their deaths - we'll be out of there as soon as we're done sucking the place dry for this war' mentality.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Thread starter):
For example Hitler was probably the most important figure in the starting of WWII, but for this thread, I ask that those deaths caused by WWII (so upwards of 70m) be ignored

OK, but Hitler killed directly 6 Millions jews !

According to this site: http://www.contrepoints.org/2013/06/24/128859-les-genocides-de-staline , Staline ordered the death of 15 to 20 Millions people, giving him the first place.
 
NAV30
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RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 71):
Churchill could easily have prevented the famine. Even a few shipments of food grain would have helped

As it happens, BarfBag, I was born in 1939 and lived through WW2 as a small child on the outskirts of (heavily-bombed) London.

I can assure you that there just wasn't enough food. Britain was effectively 'blockaded' by German submarines. We mostly lived on bread and margarine - fresh meat once a week (on Sundays); eggs or fish, and 'endless' potatoes, were all we mostly got for the rest of the time. From 1940 until 1944, the Germans occupied the whole of Europe, from Norway to the Mediterranean - no food reached us from there.

And even if we'd had food to spare, more than half the British merchant marine was sunk by U-boats between 1941 and 1943 - there'd have been no way of getting it to you guys.

So please don't blame Britain for your undoubted hardships. The people to blame were the German Nazis and the Italian Fascists........ and later the Japanese.......

[Edited 2015-07-29 06:00:52]
 
Braniff747SP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:56 am

RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 71):

You're completely ignoring the two arguments made above: first, and most importantly, that one can't equate the failure to provide to something like the Holocaust, an intentional slaughter; and, secondly, that there were a myriad of structural issues -- mostly controlled by the bureaucracy of the Empire -- which hindered the ability to dispense aid.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 71):
Churchill’s excuse — currently being peddled by his family and supporters — was Britain could not spare the ships to transport emergency supplies, but Mukerjee has unearthed documents that challenge his claim. She cites official records that reveal ships carrying grain from Australia bypassed India on their way to the Mediterranean.

This doesn't prove a conspiracy on Churchill's part -- only that the government was facing a famine in the UK itself unless it continued food deliveries.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 73):

So please don't blame Britain for your undoubted hardships. The people to blame were the German Nazis and the Italian Fascists........ and later the Japanese.......

Indeed, the Germans deserve much more blame here than the British. After all, they started the war...
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7136
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 71):

Dear Barfbag, you hate the British, or at least Churchill. Here follows a letter which Churhill wrote. You may call that "too little too late". But if Churchill had been in a position to save the whole world overnight, then he was the man who would have done exactly that. He did - more than anyone else - save the world, just not overnight.

Comparing that to the world's worst murderers, that is plain, aeh... irrelevant. I could use other words than "irrelevant", but I will let it stay here.

“ London , April 29 1944. Prime Minister to President Roosevelt Personal and Top Secret.

1. I am seriously concerned about the food situation in India and its possible reactions on our joint operations. Last year we had a grievous famine in Bengal through which at least 700,000 people died. This year there is a good crop of rice, but we are faced with an acute shortage of wheat, aggravated by unprecedented storms which have inflicted serious damage on the Indian spring crops. India 's shortage cannot be overcome by any possible surplus of rice even if such a surplus could be extracted from the peasants. Our recent losses in the Bombay explosion have accentuated the problem.

2. Wavell is exceedingly anxious about our position and has given me the gravest warnings. His present estimate is that he will require imports of about one million tons this year if he is to hold the situation, and so meet the needs of the United States and British and Indian troops and of the civil population especially in the great cities. I have just heard from Mountbatten that he considers the situation so serious that, unless arrangements are made promptly to import wheat requirements, he will be compelled to release military cargo space of SEAC in favour of wheat and formally advise Stilwell that it will also be necessary for him to arrange to curtail American military demands for this purpose.

3. By cutting down military shipments and other means, I have been able to arrange for 350,000 tons of wheat to be shipped to India from Australia during the first nine months of 1944. This is the shortest haul. I cannot see how to do more.

4. I have had much hesitation in asking you to add to the great assistance you are giving us with shipping but a satisfactory situation in India is of such vital importance to the success of our joint plans against the Japanese that I am impelled to ask you to consider a special allocation of ships to carry wheat from Australia without reducing the assistance you are now providing for us, who are at a positive minimum if war efficiency is to be maintained. We have the wheat in Australia but we lack the ships. I have resisted for some time the Viceroy's request that I should ask you for your help, but I believe that, with this recent misfortune with the wheat harvest and in the light of Mountbatten's representations, I am no longer justified in not asking for your help. Wavell is doing all he can by special measures in India . If however he should find it possible to revise his estimates of his needs, I would let you know immediately.”
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
IADCA
Posts: 2214
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 53):
Would you concurrently argue that the blame lay with Goring, Eichmann etc and not Hitler ? After all, Adolf didn't actually hold a gun and herd people into the ovens. Your argument applies to every other case. It wasn't all Mao's, Pol Pots, Saddam's, Churchill's or Hitler's fault - sure there were plenty of others, and plenty of external factors affecting their actions.

The common factor for why they get the blame is the same: They. Were. In. Charge.

Yes, I would lay some of the blame at the people who implemented the plan, especially key operational drivers like the ones you listed, as well as folks like Heydrich, Himmler, Goebbels, etc. One man did not commit all those crimes. But in each of those cases, the people at the top made a deliberate governance decision that was the root cause of what happened: collectivization of agriculture, deportation and murder of Jewish people, political based population culls. Churchill may have stood by and not done enough in your opinion to prevent a famine, but he didn't cause the cyclones that destroyed the rice crop, and nor did he construct the internal trade barriers in India that prevented domestic commerce from filling the void from elsewhere in India (those were done by Indian provincial governments, elected by Indians); nor did he start the war that cut off world trade or ask it to turn into a worldwide seaborne battle that turned ocean-going commerce into a constant mortal peril. Considering that he didn't set the thing in motion, wasn't in a position of control over most of the intervening factors, and could have been removed from power at any time by his own government, I really don't see how he's a murderous dictator.

And by your logic "they. were. in. charge." I can blame Barack Obama for anything bad that happens to be and even tangentially involves the government. That's cool. I like that idea. No, wait, not really.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Dictators: Who Killed The Most.

Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:33 am

This may be a case where 'pictures speak louder than words.' Britain was mercilessly bombed by the Germans right through WW2 - and huge numbers of its ships were sunk by U-boats. Scenes like these were commonplace - having been born in 1939, and living on the outskirts of London, I saw plenty of them myself.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/15-powerful-photos-of-the-blitz

My father was a WW1 veteran, but being 40 years old in 1939 he remained in London, travelling into the centre every day. As it happens, he was by that time a malaria researcher, he spent most of his time training people from all over the world (including Indians) to treat malaria victims. My mother worked as a secretary in the Admiralty, and therefore also travelled into London every day in the teeth of the Blitz. Scenes like these were a commonplace at the time. The bombing went on right through the War. The RAF eventually stopped the bomber raids, but the Germans perfected V1 and V2 rockets and sent them over in numbers right through to 1945; I 'grew up' hearing them........

The short answer, BarfBag, is that Britain did everything it could to stop the Germans and the Japanese. In the particular case of India, much helped by the Commonwealth, they somehow found the resources to stop the Japanese in Malaya and Burma, and save India from occupation. And the Commonwealth, led by Australia, sent vast quantities of food to ward off starvation in India and Pakistan.

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