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akiss20
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Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:24 pm

Just as the Aurora shooter is going to trial, we have another one. Thankfully not as many victims, but still horrible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/25/us...-theater-shooting-john-houser.html

[Edited 2015-07-24 06:29:41]
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910A
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:57 pm

Another day, more Americans killed senselessly in a location where they should be safe, because some idiot has a grudge and weapon he decided to use.

The hero again is an unarmed teacher: During that moment, they said, a patron, identified as a teacher, was able to pull the fire alarm, potentially saving more lives.

I'm personally becoming numb to to these senseless acts of violence, nothing is going to change until we get politicians willing to stand up to the NRA.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:06 pm

R.I.P. to the victims and I sincerely hope that their families can somehow find closure and peace.
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ltbewr
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:23 pm

Mass and multiple murders by one person or a small group of persons by guns of the general public in the USA were pretty rare until the 1960's. The rise of modern TV media, later cable/satellite TV newschannels like CNN and the Internet seem to just give too much attention to the perpetrators and perhaps encourages too many with causes, issues and mental health problems. Angry with the world, have problems - then just kill yourself, not take others in a perverse 'blaze of glory'.
We have a culture in the USA that is very violent and encourages deadly gun use. This is especially true in our low income city districts but exists all over our country.
There is especially in the USA, our terrible structure of mental health care, that since the 1960's severe limits on institutional confinement of potentially dangerous persons, drugs with horrible side affects, family shame as well as privacy based limits on disclosure of mental health problems that limits the ability of a person with mental health problems from legally getting a gun.
Far too many of these situations have happened since the 1960's, we must take real action, not by taking away guns as politically impossible, to begin to reduce these mass/multiple deaths.
 
Mir
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:36 pm

The gun tax at work. A shame that it normally gets paid by non-users.

-Mir
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Boeing717200
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):

Its interesting the correlation between these kinds of events, the explosion of homelessness and the decline in taking care of mental health patients. We decided in the early 60's asylums were unacceptable and people with psychiatric issues were largely released to the public. At least in our state, patients must voluntarily go for treatment which leaves friends and family helpless when they know someone needs help.

While the asylum model was more like a prison than a hospital, perhaps we need to rethink things when it comes to people who are a threat to themselves and others. Maybe it's time we build some hospital like facilities for these people so they can get the right kind of treatment, voluntarily or involuntarily, in an environment where they can be treated and cared for properly. The present state is a mess.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 1):
I'm personally becoming numb to to these senseless acts of violence, nothing is going to change until we get politicians willing to stand up to the NRA.

  

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
The rise of modern TV media, later cable/satellite TV newschannels like CNN and the Internet seem to just give too much attention to the perpetrators and perhaps encourages too many with causes

The "violent media" myth has been debunked so many times it's in the same crate as Ken Ham's 4000 year old dinosaur bones

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
The gun tax at work. A shame that it normally gets paid by non-users.

  

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 5):
the decline in taking care of mental health patients.

Mentally ill people are a tiny percentage of the perpetrators
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

Mentally ill people are a tiny percentage of the perpetrators
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.o...reports-studies-backgrounders/2531

Even though the 30 killings took place over a 50-year period, 21 of them (70 percent) took place in the most recent years, from 1986-1998. This suggests that there has been an increase in the incidence of such killings. Twelve perpetrators had psychotic symptoms at the time of the killings and another 8 individuals “exhibited behavior suggestive of psychosis;” thus 20 of the 30 perpetrators (67%) had definite or probable psychosis. The most common diagnoses were schizophrenia, delusional disorder, and major depression. Fifteen of them had a previously documented psychiatric history of psychiatric hospitalization or visits to a mental health professional. Alcohol was said to play a role in only 3 of the 30 killings.

Because different people, have different criteria and conclusions:

http://www.propublica.org/article/my...vs-fact-violence-and-mental-health

Of course neither supports the idea of tiny percentage.

[Edited 2015-07-24 11:45:01]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 7):
Because different people, have different criteria and conclusions:

http://www.propublica.org/article/my...vs-fact-violence-and-mental-health

Of course neither supports the idea of tiny percentage.

So, you have a sudden rise in mentally ill people that no other place on the planet has?

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 5):
Maybe it's time we build some hospital like facilities for these people so they can get the right kind of treatment, voluntarily or involuntarily, in an environment where they can be treated and cared for properly. The present state is a mess.

Splendit. I think paranoia is a good reason to send people to involuntary treatment. Start with the "I need a gun for protection" paranoids, right?

And after the fact it is fairly easy to conclude "mentally ill", a killing spree is a fairly good indicator for that after all. How many where known to be mentally ill before the fact?

Well, and of course there is this:
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/article.aspx?articleid=203874

Quote:
There was no significant difference between the prevalence of violence by patients without symptoms of substance abuse and the prevalence of violence by others living in the same neighborhoods who were also without symptoms of substance abuse.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:27 pm

We'll also likely see dozens of people shot in Chicago this weekend, as is the "norm" for the summer.

The last 10 weekends have had the following body count (dead/wounded):

3/31
6/26
9/53 (4th of July weekend)
3/18
3/32
3/22
5/33
6/24
12/43 (Memorial Day weekend)
2/47

That's 52 dead, 329 wounded over 10 weekends. I'm going to take a wild guess that these aren't all stabbings...

For comparison, Denmark had 47 homicides in 2012.

But nothing to see there - business as usual. Barely registers in the news media anymore.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 7):
Mentally ill people are a tiny percentage of the perpetrators

Mental disorders affect one in four people., please don't pretend that it isn't a big contributing factor to these mass shootings.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:04 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 7):
Of course neither supports the idea of tiny percentage.

"Only 23 percent had a documented psychiatric history of any kind ― which means 3 out of 4 did not." And that's just for mass shootings, which are indeed, a tiny percentage of total gun deaths. So yes, mental health is involved in a tiny percentage of gun deaths.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 9):
So, you have a sudden rise in mentally ill people that no other place on the planet has?

  

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 9):
Splendit. I think paranoia is a good reason to send people to involuntary treatment. Start with the "I need a gun for protection" paranoids, right?

Don't take my rights! Take that guy's! It's pretty disgusting the NRA wants to throw the mentally ill under the bus but I wouldn't expect any better.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 11):
Mental disorders affect one in four people., please don't pretend that it isn't a big contributing factor to these mass shootings.

See above. But again, mass shootings are still a small percentage of all gun deaths. Even if you exclude suicides.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
of any kind ―

I'd like to point that out. That includes a lot of stuff that isn't going to turn you in a mass murderer. And as per the study I lnked above, those people are no more likely to turn violent than anyone else.

And, well.. If 3/4 of everyone is effected by mental illness as per DLFREEBIRD, but only 23% of all mass shooters... well, I guess we have to lock up the normal people.

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/images/backgrounders/rampage-killings-nyt.png

Didn't Fox News go on the Air in 1996? Big grin

Best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2015-07-24 15:31:55]
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 13):
Didn't Fox News go on the Air in 1996? 

too funny!
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 13):
And, well.. If 3/4 of everyone is effected by mental illness as per DLFREEBIRD, but only 23% of all mass shooters... well, I guess we have to lock up the normal people.

you misquoted me it's 1 in 4 . While i agree killers like Andrea Yates are rare. she was totally gone. most mass murderst don't stick around, and most family and friends will tell you that they had problems or were acting strange, as in this case.

I realize people are unpredictable, and it's nearly impossible to predict when something like this will happen. But arming people with more guns, is not the solution.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:46 pm

Where are all the good guys with guns that the NRA says is the way to stop a bad guy with a gun?
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
photopilot
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
The rise of modern TV media, later cable/satellite TV newschannels like CNN and the Internet seem to just give too much attention to the perpetrators and perhaps encourages too many with causes, issues and mental health problems.

Ummmm.... a big NO!!!!

I'm in Canada where some 75% or more of our population lives within 100 miles of the US border. We get all the American TV channels, movies, internet, yada, yada, yada..... but we DON'T have the same problem. Could it be the Violent American culture of guns, and the Ready Access to guns is the problem?

The USA has some 300 million guns in the country. Maybe if you doubled it to 600 million guns you'd all be safe. Nah.... let's up that to 1 Billion guns in the USA. Do ya feel safe now? Why not? Maybe that's the question you should be asking.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:47 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 17):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
The rise of modern TV media, later cable/satellite TV newschannels like CNN and the Internet seem to just give too much attention to the perpetrators and perhaps encourages too many with causes, issues and mental health problems.

Ummmm.... a big NO!!!!

I'm in Canada where some 75% or more of our population lives within 100 miles of the US border. We get all the American TV channels, movies, internet, yada, yada, yada..... but we DON'T have the same problem. Could it be the Violent American culture of guns, and the Ready Access to guns is the problem?

Photopilot beat me to it.

I will add that every developed country and many developing ones have access to the same movies, video games, TV shows and news.

The cause for this is two things.

Americans is more subject to mental illness, antisocial behaviour and aggression than essentially all of the people in the developed world.
Or you have such easy access to guns (the easiest way to kill) that someone with a grudge can obtain one easily and at a low cost.

It's the latter.
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skywaymanaz
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 16):
Where are all the good guys with guns that the NRA says is the way to stop a bad guy with a gun?

Wasn't there an Uber driver who was conceal carry that stopped a shooter in Chicago recently? Uber responded by banning drivers from carrying weapons. No doubt solving the problem forever  
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
I will add that every developed country and many developing ones have access to the same movies, video games, TV shows and news.

This type of violence has started to happen in other countries as well. There was a mass stabbing incident in China not that long ago. I agree it is still more common in the US though.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 15):
you misquoted me it's 1 in 4

uops.. sorry.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 19):
There was a mass stabbing incident in China not that long ago. I agree it is still more common in the US though.

That was a terror strike. Unless you mean the Republic of China, they had one. And that's it.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
slider
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 10):
That's 52 dead, 329 wounded over 10 weekends. I'm going to take a wild guess that these aren't all stabbings...

For comparison, Denmark had 47 homicides in 2012.

But nothing to see there - business as usual. Barely registers in the news media anymore.

215 YTD in Chicago. Black lives matter, remember that.

http://homicides.suntimes.com/

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 11):
Mental disorders affect one in four people., please don't pretend that it isn't a big contributing factor to these mass shootings.

It's the BIGGEST reason, especially when you juxtapose these shooting events with the usage of SSRI drugs. There is a very clear correlation of psychotropic drug use and these violent outbursts.

But the libtards continue to blame the gun, blame the tool and implement and not the underlying reasons.
 
Redd
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
not by taking away guns as politically impossible, to begin to reduce these mass/multiple deaths.

Maybe by giving more guns to more people? That should solve the problems you have with gun deaths right?

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 16):
Where are all the good guys with guns that the NRA says is the way to stop a bad guy with a gun?

Getting harder and harder for the NRA to argue that one.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 17):
Could it be the Violent American culture of guns, and the Ready Access to guns is the problem?
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Or you have such easy access to guns (the easiest way to kill) that someone with a grudge can obtain one easily and at a low cost.

Everyone already knows this, even the gun supporters, it's the guns & only the guns. Australia took away the guns and away went the gun related murders and mass shootings.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 19):
Uber responded by banning drivers from carrying weapons. No doubt solving the problem forever  

Yup, cause having un-screened gun toting vigilante wanna be hero drivers is not bound cause problems.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:54 pm

Here's your "Gun Control" "Mr." Obama ! ! ! ! !

http://apnews.myway.com/article/2015...us-oklahoma-deaths-91ec97eca3.html

A teenager, Robert Bever, 18, of Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, has been accused in the stabbing deaths of his parents and three siblings during a late-night attack that left bodies strewn through the family's home.

---------------------------------

Perhaps if there had been a "gun" in the home, this murder spree could have been stopped at some point.

Wherever there is violence you need guns....

[Edited 2015-07-25 11:24:49]
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 16):
Where are all the good guys with guns that the NRA says is the way to stop a bad guy with a gun?
Quoting Redd (Reply 22):
Getting harder and harder for the NRA to argue that one.

Why? The vast majority of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones. Places where law-abiding gun owners/carriers are barred by law or policy from bringing a firearm into the facility. Of course those laws and regulations don't do a darn thing to stop someone bent on evil.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
The vast majority of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones.

... and the "armed citizens could make a difference" argument just went out of the window at supersonic speed.
I guess those killers are not stupid...

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 23):
Perhaps if there had been a "gun" in the home, this murder spree could have been stopped at some point

a gun would have made a difference: the victims would have different wounds.

Best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2015-07-25 11:57:51]
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
... and the "armed citizens could make a difference" argument just went out of the window at supersonic speed.
I guess those killers are not stupid...

Your argument is that armed citizens can not make a difference because the government has made it illegal to carry a gun in certain places? And, I understand, it's not just the government, public places are also free to ban weapons.

What would happen if there were no "helpless victim zones"...errr, gun free zones?

Certainly, there would still be shootings, but at least there is a possibility that the potential victims could end the incident rather than wait helplessly for the authorities.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 25):
a gun would have made a difference: the victims would have different wounds.

Supposition on your part. But, you seem to admit that it is not the weapon, but the person.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
Supposition on your part. But, you seem to admit that it is not the weapon, but the person.

well, since everyone is already dead, a gun in the house could not have made it worse. Which it statistically would do by a factor of about 4.5 If a gun is in the house and about 5.5 if the owner actually tries to use it for his self defense.
But yeah, if someone is determined to kill, he will find a way to try. His chances of success are just much bigger if he does have access to a gun
So, it is supposition in my side, but one that is a few times more likely than the opposite supposition.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
Your argument is that armed citizens can not make a difference because the government has made it illegal to carry a gun in certain places? And, I understand, it's not just the government, public places are also free to ban weapons.

It's the combination of freely available guns and gun free zones as nice hunting grounds. The point is: this type of purp aparently thinks the plan through, without gun free zones they would just adapt. Since incidence in which a gun was used in, alleged, self defense are far and between and half of them are probably illegal use of guns all by themselfes, the chance of guns actually defending someone are slim to none and they have absolutely zero chance of getting even within sight of an overall positive net result.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 27):
Since incidence in which a gun was used in, alleged, self defense are far and between and half of them are probably illegal use of guns all by themselfes,

Yes, that study. The one that bases its conclusions, for the entire US, on, what 40 or 50 accepted reports. That's fine.

Let me ask you a question: would you break the law to save your life? The life of a loved one? The life of a stranger?

Would you break the window of a car in order to save an infant that was left in a hit car? That is a crime in many jurisdictions in the US, but I don't know one person that would not hesitate to perform an illegal act to save the child.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
The one that bases its conclusions, for the entire US, on, what 40 or 50 accepted reports. That's fine

It is hardy the scientists fault that self defense use of guns is so darn rare that a bigger sample is hard to optain.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Would you break the window of a car in order to save an infant that was left in a hit car? That is a crime in many jurisdictions in the US, but I don't know one person that would not hesitate to perform an illegal act to save the child.

Well, I always knew you have some screwed up laws.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Let me ask you a question: would you break the law to save your life? The life of a loved one? The life of a stranger?

Well, I live in a jurisdiction where saving someone's live can never be against the law, so the question is quite bogus. But yes, I would break the law for it, simply because it would never ever occur to me that it could be illegal.
But the question isn't even applicable in this case afaik, or could you please name the places in the US where use of a gun in an actual self defense situation would be illegal.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 29):
But yes, I would break the law for it, simply because it would never ever occur to me that it could be illegal.

Bingo. As a lawful gun owner, so long as I act as a reasonable person would, I am not breaking the law if I'm defending myself.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 29):
could you please name the places in the US where use of a gun in an actual self defense situation would be illegal.

Anywhere that 'stand your ground' laws or 'castle doctrine' laws are not enacted. It is easy to find a situation where someone who defended himself would face criminal charges.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 29):
It is hardy the scientists fault that self defense use of guns is so darn rare that a bigger sample is hard to optain.

Even Hemenway, the author of your study, suggests between 100,000 and 300,000 uses of a firearm to deter crime.

By the way, search "armed citizen" for some actual sourced news articles on defensive use of firearms.

[Edited 2015-07-25 13:42:50]

[Edited 2015-07-25 13:46:53]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
photopilot
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
Certainly, there would still be shootings, but at least there is a possibility that the potential victims could end the incident rather than wait helplessly for the authorities

So let's stop a moment and think this thru. After all, we have LOTS of time to think and debate.

You are a gun advocate, NRA member, and have a permit to carry your concealed weapon of choice. You're sitting in a darkened theatre munching popcorn and guzzling a coke. BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG!!!! Shots are being fired, there's bedlam in the theatre. Civic citizen that you are, you stand up and yank out your gun and start blazing away at who you THINK is the shooter. (remember, the theatre is still dark, only seconds have passed and others are reacting, screaming, jumping up, etc)
First question is how do YOU identify the shooter and start shooting back.
Next, NRA member B sitting somewhere else in the theatre is fractionally slower than you, and HE sees TWO people shooting and immediately thinks TERRORIST. He starts blazing away at BOTH of you.
CITIZEN NRA member C, also thinks a full blown terrorist attack is underway and decides HE is going to save the day and starts ripping rounds off at anything that moves, or he THINKS is a bad guy.

BEDLAM, tons of dead bodies and yup, you guys seem to think that more guns is the solution.

Geezus.... give your heads a shake!!!!
 
petertenthije
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 30):
Geezus.... give your heads a shake!!!!

I would advise against that. They got a screw loose somewhere in their head. If they now start shaking their head it might fall off.
Attamottamotta!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 30):
First question is how do YOU identify the shooter and start shooting back.
Next, NRA member B sitting somewhere else in the theatre is fractionally slower than you, and HE sees TWO people shooting and immediately thinks TERRORIST. He starts blazing away at BOTH of you.
CITIZEN NRA member C, also thinks a full blown terrorist attack is underway and decides HE is going to save the day and starts ripping rounds off at anything that moves, or he THINKS is a bad guy.

BEDLAM, tons of dead bodies and yup, you guys seem to think that more guns is the solution.

Simple. Most advocates of the "I'd have pulled out my XXXX and shot back" crowd think they are action movie heroes who instantly know what to do and where to shoot and never make mistakes.

I haven't spoken to a single one who has ever actually been in a shooting situation.

I have been in a shooting situation when two bullets came through our house while we were at home. What these self-styled action movie heroes don't realize is that in the situation it takes a good 2-4 seconds to even register that there is gunfire when it hits in a place like your living room or in a movie where it's completely unexpected. By the time you hear the gunfire, the bullet has already gone past your radius from the gun (you will never hear the bullet that hits you in the head). They also move *way* too fast for the eye to see and you have no idea what direction they are going until you see the muzzle of the gun. In a confused, dark, crowded movie house you might never see the gun. Bullets also pass through things (in our house one passed through a window and two walls) including human bodies and strike people behind them. This all happens faster than nerve impulses travel.

Yes, there have been cases in which armed citizens have stopped would-be shootings, but these are much less common than the shootings themselves.
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mikelive
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:48 am

This is what I say to anyone who wants to bring up gun control laws. I'll be willing to consider giving up my gun if you'll consider banning alcohol which causes just as many deaths as guns due to drunken driving.

Case-in-point: four ladies in a limo who died as a result of a drunken driver in NY. Of course, this doesn't merit a discussion on Anet, but guns do because all gun owners are bad. Does this mean all alcoholics are bad?

Of course not; however, alcohol is limited to 21+ in the US yet people under 21 get their hands on it quite easily despite all the laws on the books about it. Just like guns: despite already tough gun control laws in some states, the criminals still manage to get their hands on them. A complete ban is not going to stop that.

How many more innocent people have to die before the US considers banning alcohol? And people want to legalize marijuana throughout the country? If you thought that gun owners were nuts, consider what it would be like if some politician said that they wanted to reinstate prohibition on all alcohol in the US.

Just my opinion.


http://nypost.com/2015/07/18/4-women...it-and-run-driver-plows-into-limo/

http://nypost.com/2015/07/24/driver-...ed-limo-was-below-legal-dwi-limit/

http://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/crime/article28621822.html
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting mikelive (Reply 33):
This is what I say to anyone who wants to bring up gun control laws. I'll be willing to consider giving up my gun if you'll consider banning alcohol which causes just as many deaths as guns due to drunken driving.

False equivalence.

Alcohol is primarily an intoxicant. It isn't primarily designed to kill as its function. Same with cars; they are not designed to kill as their primary function.

The primary function of a gun is to kill. No, don't play words and say "defense." It defends because it can kill.

The least restrictive way to reduce drunk driving deaths is to ban drunk driving and enforce the ban. The least restrictive way to end mass shootings is to ban and enforce a ban on weapons that are primarily designed to kill humans (as opposed to hunting rifles).

Quoting mikelive (Reply 33):
Of course not; however, alcohol is limited to 21+ in the US yet people under 21 get their hands on it quite easily despite all the laws on the books about it. Just like guns: despite already tough gun control laws in some states, the criminals still manage to get their hands on them. A complete ban is not going to stop that.

Incorrect. Firearms are complex manufactured goods. If their production and sale to the public is restricted, then ownership goes down significantly. This has been demonstrated in 100% of other industrialized nations where there are bans on personal ownership of weapons designed primarily for shooting at people. Unlike alcohol, which can be distilled in bootleg stills, firearms require complex infrastructure for manufacturing precision components and dismantling that infrastructure will serve a major barrier to ownership.

Are there other logically flawed talking points you would like to parrot?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18197
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:18 am

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 22):
A teenager, Robert Bever, 18, of Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, has been accused in the stabbing deaths of his parents and three siblings during a late-night attack that left bodies strewn through the family's home.

Guns kill like 5x as many people as knives. Try again.

Quoting slider (Reply 20):
But the libtards continue to blame the gun, blame the tool and implement and not the underlying reasons.

What is this underlying reason, that only exists in the US of A and no where else?

Quoting slider (Reply 20):
It's the BIGGEST reason,

It ABSOLUTELY is not. I know the NRA is allergic to data but that is downright foul that the NRA wants to throw mental illness under the bus, yet what would you expect from an organization that uses dead children to sell more guns.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/26/stop-blaming-mental-health-for-gun-violence-the-problem-is-guns/

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
The vast majority of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones.

Few if any of the perpetrators have chosen gun free zones on purpose--they almost always have a personal connection to their site of choice. But consider that the entire EU, most of Asia, and Australia are largely gun free zones. Why aren't people being shot all the time there?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
Certainly, there would still be shootings, but at least there is a possibility that the potential victims could end the incident rather than wait helplessly for the authorities.

There are about 100 accidental shooting deaths per year. When all these 'armed citizens' started guarding recruitment centers, at least one guy accidentally discharged his weapon. They were quickly asked to scram because they increased the threat, rather than reduced it. If you can barely trust people to drive properly, what in god's name makes you think they'll know how to use a gun properly? Let alone in a tense situation where the shooter is not clear? Cops regularly injure innocent bystanders; what the heck do you think Jim Bob with a god complex is going to do?
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StarAC17
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 28):
Well, I live in a jurisdiction where saving someone's live can never be against the law, so the question is quite bogus. But yes, I would break the law for it, simply because it would never ever occur to me that it could be illegal.

One thing you forget about the US is how much they sue people there.

You could save someone in the US from choking by performing the heimlich and break a couple of rips and that person you saved can sue you for the broken ribs and win taking you for perhaps all your money.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 24):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
The vast majority of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones.

... and the "armed citizens could make a difference" argument just went out of the window at supersonic speed.
I guess those killers are not stupid...

I think you miss the point here.

The fact that some of these recent shooting have occurred in areas like schools, churches, military bases etc. No guns are permitted in those places so they would be an easier target for a shooter and if guns were allowed perhaps the shooting would be stopped by an armed bystander.
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 30):
Civic citizen that you are, you stand up and yank out your gun and start blazing away at who you THINK is the shooter. (remember, the theatre is still dark, only seconds have passed and others are reacting, screaming, jumping up, etc)
First question is how do YOU identify the shooter and start shooting back.
Next, NRA member B sitting somewhere else in the theatre is fractionally slower than you, and HE sees TWO people shooting and immediately thinks TERRORIST. He starts blazing away at BOTH of you.
CITIZEN NRA member C, also thinks a full blown terrorist attack is underway and decides HE is going to save the day and starts ripping rounds off at anything that moves, or he THINKS is a bad guy.

Just because that's how you think I or any other person would react, doesn't mean that's how we would react. Truth be known, unless I'm in that situation, I have no idea how I would react. I would just be content to know that I have an option other than cowering in fear praying (or hoping, as the case may be) that the incident ends before he gets to me.

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 31):
I would advise against that. They got a screw loose somewhere in their head. If they now start shaking their head it might fall off.

Ahh, the ad-hominem attack. The refuge of the person that can't add to a debate or has already lost it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
I have been in a shooting situation when two bullets came through our house while we were at home

So have I, except my friends and I were shot at in a drive-by, in that gun-free utopia known as Brooklyn, NY. And, you are absolutely correct, it happens fast. Yet, in the real world, people do successful defend themselves.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Few if any of the perpetrators have chosen gun free zones on purpose

That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that the shootings do occur in gun-free zones and the victims and potential victims are prevented from defending themselves with a firearm by law or policy.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Jim Bob with a god complex is going to do?

Again, I ask, where are the news stories that indicate this is happening? The laws of probability say they must should be happening and the antigun crowd claims it is happening. With the bulk of the established media being firmly in the camp of the anti-gun crowd, you'd expect headline after headline. But, we don't have that. Why?

The yahoo that discharged his firearm was handling his firearm. How many CCW types handle their firearm after it goes in the holster? I have quite a few problems with the guys 'standing guard'. And, one of those problems is that they are casually handling their firearms.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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scbriml
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 16):
Could it be the Violent American culture of guns, and the Ready Access to guns is the problem?

No, it couldn't be that simple, could it?      

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 31):
I would advise against that. They got a screw loose somewhere in their head. If they now start shaking their head it might fall off.

Zinger!   

Quoting mikelive (Reply 33):
I'll be willing to consider giving up my gun if you'll consider banning alcohol which causes just as many deaths as guns due to drunken driving.

Epic comparison fail. What is the main purpose of alcohol? What is the main purpose of a car? Compare those answers to the answer to this question - "What is the main purpose of a gun?"
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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ltbewr
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:46 pm

I wonder if this jerk was inspired by the end of the trial of the Aurora, CO movie shooting, figuring he would get a lot of attention for his perverse cause.

It is well understood from documents and investigations this shooter had a vile hatred for women in general, that they should be treated as inferior and subservient to men. Some believe he targeted his attack for this movie 'Trainwreck' one with a movie with a lead female character who is independent, the type of woman he despised. I wonder if he had serious relationship issues with women from he was a child including physical abuse. He was also a confused neo-Nazi, a racist, an ultra right wing nutcase with appearances on webcasts of RWNJ's.

Apparently he got his gun legally but only due to a failure by someone to properly enter his psychiatric hospitalization into the database to be used by gun dealers to verify if such a condition exists and if so, deny the sale. Even then he could have stolen a gun or got one illegally or in a private sale.
 
diverted
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:29 pm

Rather than getting into a pro vs anti gun debate, let's step back and think about this for a moment. Why does the US seem to suffer so much more violent crime than other first world nations? Why is it that we're routinely hearing about people shooting up a school, theatre, place of work, stabbing their family etc?

So far we've heard the normal arguments, those against guns say the guns are the problem, those for guns say the user has mental health issues.

If it's the guns, then simple, taking away guns solves the problem (assuming you can rid the streets of illegal firearms)
If it's mental health issues, then more guns either exacerbates the problem by putting guns into the hands of people with mental problems, or it solves the issues by allowing "normal" citizens to "deal with" the mentally unwell person, but doesn't solve the root of the problem. A fork can easily kill someone...

However, it seems that people will never agree, and as such, taking away guns is against ones rights, and locking people up because they have a mental health issue also goes against ones rights(unless they pose a danger to themselves or others, which is hard to tell until after they've committed the crime)

So, then, what is it about America, its society and citizens, that mass shootings seem to happen, and it's hardly noticed aside from the initial few days news reports.

These shooters seem to often be young males (though not always) who were picked on, made fun of, or otherwise disenfranchised. But that happens to lots of kids, they deal with it, grow up and move on. These people can't. Why?

Why, in the most powerful country in the world, are members of a civilized society going out and killing random, innocent people? Particularly members of the military, who, you would think have signed up to defend their country and what it stands for, and watch out for each other. Not walk in and shoot up a base.

We aren't talking about a war torn 3rd world country where people don't know anything but fighting. We're talking about the country that prides itself on freedom, life, liberty, happiness, and those sorts of things.
 
Mir
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting mikelive (Reply 33):
Just like guns: despite already tough gun control laws in some states, the criminals still manage to get their hands on them. A complete ban is not going to stop that.

No, it won't. It would, however, significantly reduce it.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
No, it won't. It would, however, significantly reduce it.

Maybe after a generation or 2 or 3. It is estimated that there are over 300,000,000 firearms in non-government hands. Short of kicking in doors at every address in the union, only a fraction of those guns would exit circulation.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Short of kicking in doors at every address in the union, only a fraction of those guns would exit circulation.

those gun owner that are in fact law abiding citizens will build lines to surrender them whereever the law says they have to hand them over. Otherwise they are no law abiding citizens and shouldn't have a gun in the first place.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Anywhere that 'stand your ground' laws or 'castle doctrine' laws are not enacted. It is easy to find a situation where someone who defended himself would face criminal charges.

"Anywhere" doesn't cut it. In which US jurisdictions exactly could you actually walk out of a court room because you used a gun in a legit selfsefense situation.
That doesn't even happen in Germany if I use an illegal gun to defend myself. I would get punished for the illegal gun, but not for having defended myself with it.

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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
those gun owner that are in fact law abiding citizens will build lines to surrender them whereever the law says they have to hand them over.

Correct. That would leave "who" with the guns? That's right, the criminals. Those that ignore the law. Those that prey on the weak and defenseless.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
"Anywhere" doesn't cut it.

Sure it does, but I'll play. New York State. In NYS, a person has a duty to retreat when presented with a threat. If I were confronted with a threat of severe physical injury or death and I have an avenue of escape, I must use that avenue. If I engage and kill my aggreessor, regardless of weapon used, I can be subjected to prosecution.

The laws are similar in any jurisdictions that do not have a "stand your ground" statute.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Mir
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Maybe after a generation or 2 or 3.

I didn't say it would happen overnight.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
those gun owner that are in fact law abiding citizens will build lines to surrender them whereever the law says they have to hand them over.

Correct.

Not exactly. Many in NYS are refusing to comply with the law that requires them to register certain weapons.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
In NYS, a person has a duty to retreat when presented with a threat. If I were confronted with a threat of severe physical injury or death and I have an avenue of escape, I must use that avenue. If I engage and kill my aggreessor, regardless of weapon used, I can be subjected to prosecution.

As it should be. Unless you're in your own home and the person isn't retreating, the obligation should be to de-escalate a situation if possible, not to jump to conclusions and kill people who may very well not deserve it.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
So have I, except my friends and I were shot at in a drive-by, in that gun-free utopia known as Brooklyn, NY. And, you are absolutely correct, it happens fast. Yet, in the real world, people do successful defend themselves.

Very rarely and under extraordinary circumstances. By the time your hand is on your gun, a bullet has gone through your brain.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Maybe after a generation or 2 or 3. It is estimated that there are over 300,000,000 firearms in non-government hands. Short of kicking in doors at every address in the union, only a fraction of those guns would exit circulation.

That's OK. It will take time for the guns currently in circulation to be lost to attrition.
-Doc Lightning-

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-Carl Sagan
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
Not exactly. Many in NYS are refusing to comply with the law that requires them to register certain weapons.

Which makes them potential felons, should NYS decide to go after them.

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
As it should be.

I disagree. You're asking someone in stressful situation, not of his making, to make a life or death judgement call. That judgement call: whether he could have retreated in absolute safety, will be dissected with the benefit of hindsight by a prosecutor, who may or may not have political ambitions.

I much rather prefer the affirmative defense provided by me that simply states that I would have acted as a reasonable person would have acted given the same circumstances.

I most certainly can still be brought to trial, but the burden for the prosecution is much higher. As it should be. I am the victim, not my aggressor.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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scbriml
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Maybe after a generation or 2 or 3.

Just because something's difficult, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
not to jump to conclusions and kill people who may very well not deserve it.

Like a tourist looking for directions?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Movie Theater Shooting In Louisiana

Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 15):
Where are all the good guys with guns that the NRA says is the way to stop a bad guy with a gun?

If they exist and are present at one of these mass shooting events I suggest they are probably to scared (or smart) to act.

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