gkirk
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Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:02 am

So, it seems that the French authorities are being overrun (or quite possibly, simply not caring) by the illegal migrant camps in Calais as they try to storm the Channel Tunnel in a bid to reach the UK.

The problem has probably been worsened by Europes Open Doors policy with Neighbouring countries making it far too easy to make it from the southern European coast to North West Europe.

What more can be done, should the Army be deployed to prevent these migrants from breaking down the fences, and possibly shooting them in an effort to resolve this situation, or should we just fill in the Chunnel?
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:04 am

You reap what you sow, they want to go to the UK because they have family there. And the UK was also part of the invasion of Iraq that started this mess.
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gkirk
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:08 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):

Many of them are Africans, so I don't see what the War has got to do with it.

No doubt, the UK Gov's soft policies on Immigration has attracted many of them, but if they want to come, they should do it legally.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:30 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
they want to go to the UK because they have family there.

No the main reason is language, most of them speak English.

I have a friend who works in a refuge centre in my town, Africans end up in Norway because they are told there is a ferry link to the UK from here, there isn't it closed a long time ago, they don't wan to stay in Norway even though the benefits are better, the UK is the holy grail.


Quoting gkirk (Thread starter):
possibly shooting them in an effort to resolve this situation

We have to get tough on illegal immigration, these aren't refugees they are mostly illegal economic migrants, if you have to shoot a few to stop the rest coming, so be it.
 
gkirk
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
No the main reason is language, most of them speak English.

One of them interview on Sky News the other day had a strangely Cockney accent...
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TheCommodore
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
No the main reason is language, most of them speak English.

And very well too I might add.

Heard a few of them interviewed on the TV last night, eloquent and conscious !

These a economic refugees, nothing more IMHO.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
We have to get tough on illegal immigration, these aren't refugees they are mostly illegal economic migrants, if you have to shoot a few to stop the rest coming, so be it.

I agree. That will stop them !

Quoting gkirk (Reply 4):
One of them interview on Sky News the other day had a strangely Cockney accent...

Yes I heard that one too....!
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 2):
Many of them are Africans, so I don't see what the War has got to do with it.

No doubt, the UK Gov's soft policies on Immigration has attracted many of them, but if they want to come, they should do it legally.

They are from your former colonies and have connections to the UK, even if it is just the language they are speaking, and maybe an education from a similar system as the UK's. The ones from former French colonies stay in France.
Those Africans who arrive in Europe are btw. not the really poor. They are mostly from the local middle class, often with some education, who don't see a future in their own countries, as any economic progress is blocked by their own elites.
The really poor ones don't have the money to pay for the traffickers.

Btw., Germany is accepting the highest number of refugees in Europe, the UK is way behind.

Jan
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
They are mostly from the local middle class, often with some education, who don't see a future in their own countries, as any economic progress is blocked by their own elites.

Which is not Europe's problem and we shouldn't have to bear the brunt of their dissatisfaction in the political situation in their homelands.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:56 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Btw., Germany is accepting the highest number of refugees in Europe, the UK is way behind.

Indeed. There is just one way to get to the UK dry, via the channel tunnel, so thats why so many are located in Calais. Just blocking everything is no solution for the problem. They are building a refugee camp in my backyard right now. I cannot say I am so happy but NIMBY mentality does not help. We have to stop the issues in their home countries.
 
aloges
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
We have to get tough on illegal immigration, these aren't refugees they are mostly illegal economic migrants, if you have to shoot a few to stop the rest coming, so be it.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 5):
I agree. That will stop them !

Apart from the fact that the two of you are advocating murder, let's see why this wouldn't work:

• Not afraid to leave home, possibly forever, for the vague promise of economic success in a completely different culture?   
• Not afraid to pay huge sums of largely borrowed money to the extremely shady human traffickers?   
• Not afraid to cross the Sahara illegally in convoys where the drivers may at any time decide to leave you for dead?   
• Not afraid of the risk of being arrested by someone and thrown into a sweltering, overcrowded "prison" with barely any food and water?   
• Not afraid to cross the Med in a dinghy/rusty fishing boat/coaster with more holes than rivets?   
• Not afraid to cross half of Europe clandestinely and with little to no money?   
• Not afraid to walk through the Chunnel where you may quite possibly be hit and obliterated by a train?   

And then you're supposed to be scared off by a couple of BNP/EDL bullets coming your way? That's just not going to happen.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 8):
ndeed. There is just one way to get to the UK dry, via the channel tunnel, so thats why so many are located in Calais. Just blocking everything is no solution for the problem. They are building a refugee camp in my backyard right now. I cannot say I am so happy but NIMBY mentality does not help. We have to stop the issues in their home countries.

My county and community is asking local landlords for flats and houses the county could rent to house refugees. If I were a landlord with an empty flat, I would do so, though I don't know what the others in the village would say. We have a row of houses, a bit outside the village, called "refugee houses". They were built in the 1950s to house German refugees, who were driven out of the old Eastern provinces by the Russians, Poles and Czechs after WW2. These people were not welcome then either, but somehow managed to fit in.
As long as the refugees would adhere to some basic rules as making living together easier, I'd take anyone.

But the thing in rural German villages (and probably rural communities everywhere) is that if one's great grandparents hadn't been playing together as children, you are always a stranger. I have been living here in the village since ten years and I'm not included in the village community (not that I give a damn).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):

Apart from the fact that the two of you are advocating murder, let's see why this wouldn't work:

One man's murder is another man's defence of the realm.

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
• Not afraid to cross the Med in a dinghy/rusty fishing boat/coaster with more holes than rivets?

And this is where Europe needs to look towards Australia's successful policy of turning back the boats.

It's this kind of unfair treatment of immigrants over citizens which annoys many.

Quote:

Angry homeowners in Treviso set fire to mattresses and flat-screen TVs from migrants’ homes after more than 100 were moved into their apartment buildings by the local authorities.

Furious to find the apartments were fully kitted out with furniture and the latest mod-cons, the residents of two apartment buildings in the Quinto di Treviso area of the city removed the items and burnt them in the street, Corriere del Veneto reported.

Some people mounted tents outside, refusing to sleep under the same roof as the 101 migrants who started to move in on Wednesday, while others stopped food supplies from reaching the newly inserted community.

The buildings contain the privately-owned apartments of some ten Italian families, who are furious at a decision by the local authorities to move the migrants in.

As Italy struggles under the weight of the migrant influx, and as reception centres become full beyond capacity, the government has called on leaders across the country to find much-needed housing, a request that has sparked revolt, especially in the north.

“They have transformed our homes, which we paid for with our mortgages, into a refugee camp,” one resident told Corriere del Veneto.

Luca Zaia, the far-right president of the Veneto region who is opposed to his region housing more migrants, showed his support for the protesters, describing the mayhem as “the Africanization of Veneto”.

“They have been sleeping here [in the Veneto region] for four years,” Corriere reported him as saying.

"The government shouldn't send us any more refugees...we don't agree with this violence but we are here and will protest to the end.”

The leader of the Northern League, Matteo Salvini, also expressed his solidarity with the families.

“The immigrants need to go away,” he said. “But let's be clear: we don't endorse any kind of violence.”

Salvini is expected to visit Quinto di Treviso this weekend, while also visiting the areas of his party's stronghold damaged by a tornado last week.

Treviso prefect, Maria Augusta Marrosu, said: "They are staying, because they don't have the choice."

Graffiti sprayed on the side of a building in Quinto in large red letters said: "Prefect Marrosu, take them home."
http://www.thelocal.it/20150717/angr...homeowners-burn-migrants-furniture
 
JJJ
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):
And this is where Europe needs to look towards Australia's successful policy of turning back the boats.

There is another major issue.

Where do you turn the boats? The ones crossing the Med or jumping the fence in Morocco are not legally in Morocco either.

Morocco doesn't want them unless the EU (or Spain) gives them more funds.

Likewise for the ones crossing Turkey overland, or from Libya/Tunis to Italy.
 
offloaded
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 12):

Right. As most destroy their documents, if they refuse to say where they are from, where exactly are you going to send them to?

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 8):
We have to stop the issues in their home countries.

Right again, but how?
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moo
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):

And the UK was also part of the invasion of Iraq that started this mess.

Uh, no.

This has been a problem for more than 20 years - the Sangatte refugee camp opened in 1998, 5 years before the Iraq invasion in 2003. And it was opened in response to the thousands of illegal campsites in and around the area created by those people trying to get across the Channel into the UK.

So no, it wasn't an issue caused by the UK's involvement in the Iraq invasion. How utterly ridiculous to suggest so.
 
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moo
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 13):
Right. As most destroy their documents, if they refuse to say where they are from, where exactly are you going to send them to?

The other side of the border. I don't particularly care where they go from there.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 12):
Where do you turn the boats? The ones crossing the Med or jumping the fence in Morocco are not legally in Morocco either.

I think we should build and fund some refugee camps in North Africa, I'm sure local authorities wouldn't mind if it was profitable and offered jobs to locals. Due to lower cost of labour and goods it would be much cheaper to host these refugees (and "refugees" ) there instead of giving them welfare money here in Europe with high cost of living.

Those who don't want to join one of those camps should be just offloaded to Libya, that's the country where most of them started their crossing of Mediterranean from anyway.
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OA260
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting gkirk (Thread starter):
The problem has probably been worsened by Europes Open Doors policy with Neighbouring countries making it far too easy to make it from the southern European coast to North West Europe.

Its a huge failure of the EU and whilst countries like Greece and Italy have been crying out for help the can gets kicked down the road and no one does anything. I can see countries bringing back borders and checks throughout the Schengen area. The only reason why its not happened already is because it shatters the idea of the Schengen project.

Something should have been done ages ago but of course it was the massive failure to do something after the horse had bolted. People only took notice when hundreds drowned in the Med. This is just part of the wider issue including Calais.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 12):
Where do you turn the boats? The ones crossing the Med or jumping the fence in Morocco are not legally in Morocco either.

Indonesia doesn't want them either, but they allowed them to transit their country so I don't see the issue with Australia returning the boats to Indonesia or Europe returning the boasts to Morocco or whichever North African country they departed from. It's then up to those countries to shore up their borders.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
Its a huge failure of the EU and whilst countries like Greece and Italy have been crying out for help the can gets kicked down the road and no one does anything.

Greece and Italy should be responsible for their own borders, they have navy's and coast guards, use them to turn the boats back rather than using them to rescue and bring them ashore.
 
JJJ
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
It's then up to those countries to shore up their borders.

They want money for that.
 
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OA260
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Greece and Italy should be responsible for their own borders, they have navy's and coast guards, use them to turn the boats back rather than using them to rescue and bring them ashore.

They are overwhelmed and part of the nature of the EU is about working together. Of course with fights breaking out
( verbally ) between Western Europe and Southern Europe the cracks are showing. The attitude of ''we are alright Jack'' so get on with it is really not in keeping with the spirit of the EU or at least thats what was fed to us for years as ''EU Citizens''.



The Mediterranean migrant emergency is not Italy’s. It is Europe’s

We shouldn’t let selfishness and fear divide us. We need a humane, European Union-wide strategy on asylum seekers – the soul of Europe depends on it

However, while lives are being saved we also know that there isn’t enough room for everyone. Whoever has the right to asylum must be welcome in Europe, not just in Italy, despite the EU’s Dublin regime. But it is inconceivable that one country should tackle the entirety of this problem on its own. Responsibility and solidarity are concepts that go hand in hand.

Anyone who doesn’t have the right to remain in Europe must be repatriated. And in those countries, the European Union – including Italy – must do more in terms of providing aid, to support international development projects, and cultural and technological exchange programmes.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...igrant-crisis-not-italy-but-europe
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 19):

They want money for that.

If we're turning the boats back these guys are going to be overrun and they'll pretty quickly do something about the problem themselves. Indonesia is now making it tough for the migrants to reach Indonesia to transit the country on the way to Australia.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
I have been living here in the village since ten years and I'm not included in the village community (not that I give a damn).

I know that. You find this kind of Dorftrottel behaviour in every german rural town, even between cologne and Bonn.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 13):

Right again, but how?

I would be a rich man if I knew the answer. A few hints, though:

1. Opening our markets for african africultural products might help - but my experience tells me this will never happen with the French and neither will those african countries be able to produce sustainable growth and wealth for their own people even if they had access.

2. Finally get the Syrian crisis sorted. Unfortunately this is not working with the current rediculours russian government. Nevertheless it is worth trying.

3. Maybe a kind of a Marshall-plan-free trade investment into african countries, binding them closer to Europe.

And 4th- a strong military mission with 50.000+ soldiers against those people in charge for the transports.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 22):
2. Finally get the Syrian crisis sorted. Unfortunately this is not working with the current rediculours russian government. Nevertheless it is worth trying.

I think Syria would be even more messed up without the Russkies. If there's a side that deserves support in that conflict (apart from the Kurds) that's Assad, no the shady Islamists fighting against him.
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
We have to get tough on illegal immigration, these aren't refugees they are mostly illegal economic migrants, if you have to shoot a few to stop the rest coming, so be it.

Good idea, why don't we just start shooting random people!   
I used to think conservative Americans had backwards views on immigration, but you Europeans really take the cake. Granted, the US is a land of immigrants, so it's not exactly comparing apples to apples, but these are other human beings we are talking about, not cattle. They deserve to be treated with dignity and not shot for trying to find a better life for themselves. If you were in their situation, you would probably do the same thing.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
Which is not Europe's problem and we shouldn't have to bear the brunt of their dissatisfaction in the political situation in their homelands.

Sorry, but the way I see it, it kind of is Europe's (especially Britain's) problem. The Europeans colonized many of these countries, extracted natural resources and manpower, then in the 1950's-1970's decolonized and left many regions in chaos because no sustainable local governments had been established. It's called blowback and as an American, it is something I am all too familiar with due to our constant need to act as a world police.
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 24):
I used to think conservative Americans had backwards views on immigration, but you Europeans really take the cake. Granted, the US is a land of immigrants, so it's not exactly comparing apples to apples, but these are other human beings we are talking about, not cattle.

You Americans have it easy with Mexicans, the cultural differences between an average Mexican and an average American are nothing compared to those between an average European and those who cross the Mediterranean illegally. In the south you also seem to have plenty of low paying jobs to offer to them, we really don't.

Lack of jobs that require workforce with little education & enormous cultural and religious differences make integrating these people incredibly difficult. Thus it's no wonder why so many never really integrate, in many European cities we have growing immigrant ghettos where social exclusion, and its side effects such as crime and religious radicalization, are a huge issue. Those issues obviously create even more tension between the native populations and immigrants, unfortunately as always the bad apples easily also label those immigrants who earn a honest living and do their best to integrate.

The only solution is not letting masses of uneducated immigrants inside the EU zone in the first place.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 24):
Sorry, but the way I see it, it kind of is Europe's (especially Britain's) problem. The Europeans colonized many of these countries, extracted natural resources and manpower, then in the 1950's-1970's decolonized and left many regions in chaos because no sustainable local governments had been established.

Colonialism shouldn't be blamed forever. Germany and Japan were destroyed quite badly in WW2, and look at them now. After the war we Finns turned our country from a poor, agricultural society into a industrial welfare in just a few decades, despite having to pay war compensation to the Soviets and not receiving any Marshall aid.

The only ones who can fix Africa's problems are Africans themselves, development aid often does more harm than good for local economic development. What's particularly unfair is how the EU sends these immigrants to countries like Finland, despite us playing no part whatsoever in colonialism.
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
Colonialism shouldn't be blamed forever. Germany and Japan were destroyed quite badly in WW2, and look at them now.

That's because we gave Germany and Japan billions of dollars to rebuild their infrastructure and they had well educated populations that could immediately go back to work in skilled jobs. The latter part is also true of Finland. Comparing the defeated Axis powers to third world countries is comparing apples to oranges. Quite frankly, colonialism has never really ended, it's just that the west no longer directly controls the countries. The term is neocolonialism. Western nations still extract natural resources, prop up corrupt regimes with the mentality that "they can be a SOB as long as they're our SOB." We provide very little in terms of FDI and that coupled with the fact that it is largely due to the west that African economies still rely on cash crops and natural resource extraction deincentivizes any internal investment into infrastructure. I'm sorry, but the lack of development in African nations and the influx of immigrants into Europe is veru=y much a result of the West's policy towards Africa.
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 26):

Sure. yet ex Western colonies in Asia seem to be doing a lot better, despite the fact they too were simply used as producers of raw materials rather than something to be developed.

I think lack of development in Africa isn't really just fault of the west. Most of Africa was very underdeveloped when westerners arrived there, that's the very reason why colonies there could be exploited so badly compared to those in Asia for example.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 22):
1. Opening our markets for african africultural products might help - but my experience tells me this will never happen with the French and neither will those african countries be able to produce sustainable growth and wealth for their own people even if they had access.

Why should we throw local producers under the bus?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):

Sure. yet ex Western colonies in Asia seem to be doing a lot better, despite the fact they too were simply used as producers of raw materials rather than something to be developed.

I think it's simple Asians work there arses off.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 26):
Quite frankly, colonialism has never really ended, it's just that the west no longer directly controls the countries.

I disagree, Africans like to think all there problems stem from white people which is no longer true, Zimbabwe is the perfect example of this, a country were most people were educated, employed and could feed themselves, whilst providing an excess for export markets failed when Mugabe showed his true colours and replaced competent white people with cronies who don't have a clue. Look at the country which benefited from those farmers, Zambia, 100 white farming families moved to Zambia, in the space of 12 months they managed to turn around Zambia's agricultural industry and make it work, the country can no feed itself.

Quote:
LUSAKA, Zambia - Exiled white Zimbabwean farmers have helped neighbouring Zambia break a crippling food shortage that saw millions rely on food aid last season.

The roughly 100 Zimbabwean exile families have settled in central Zambia's fertile maize-growing district of Mkushi, where even critics concede they have revolutionised commercial agriculture by introducing hi-tech commercial farming techniques through partnerships with local landowners.

They have been so successful that Zambia's Investment Centre (ZIC) has just issued certificates to 31 Zimbabweans authorising them to begin commercial farming in their own name and on their own newly acquired land, while Zambia's national government intends luring even more disillusioned Zimbabwean farmers across the border - regardless of possible discomfort in relations between Lusaka and Harare.

Saw them as the enemy

"People initially saw them as the enemy, seeking refuge in Zambia. Because they were white, people were also scared that the history of racism would resurface. Even people in government thought there should be solidarity (with Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe), and we should refuse them (entry)," says Zambian deputy agriculture minister Chance Kabaghe.

"But we saw them as potential investors who could improve our food security.

"We have now been vindicated."

Makes you wonder if Africa would be a much better place to live if most of the countries were still colonies.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
Sure. yet ex Western colonies in Asia seem to be doing a lot better, despite the fact they too were simply used as producers of raw materials rather than something to be developed.

There are a few things that differentiate the impact of colonization in Africa from that in Asia and make its effects much worse for the former. First, there is the slave trade. For centuries, it robbed Africa of it's fittest and most able bodied people, setting back development by an incalculable but substantial amount of time. Second, Western influence in Africa began earlier and lasted longer than in Asia. Third, and this is the real biggie, the populations of the colonized areas of Asia tended to be much more homogeneous than those in Africa. Thus, when European powers divided up the African continent amongst themselves in whatever manner they saw fit during the Berlin conference of 1884, Africa was much more negatively effected than was Asia. Because the Europeans paid no attention to the territory of indigenous peoples and who their allies and enemies were, many African nations are inhabited by peoples that were enemies for centuries before the Europeans arrived. The rebuttal to this is: why don't the Africans just forget their old tribal identities and move on. The problem with this argument is that the Europeans did nothing to encourage such behavior, in fact, they did the opposite. The Europeans in many cases played on old tribal differences to suppress certain groups while showing favor towards others. The most famous example of this is the Rwandan genocide. During the colonial period, the Germans and later Belgians placed Tutsis in positions of power and allowed (encouraged even) them to abuse the Hutus. Lo and behold, when independence was granted, the Hutus took their revenge. Most civil wars in Africa stemmed from similar circumstances. In short, neither Asia nor S. America ever experienced the same levels of exploitation at the hands of the West that Africa did (and to a certain extent, still does).
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
I disagree, Africans like to think all there problems stem from white people which is no longer true

I strongly disagree. many of the current problems on the African continent can be traced back to colonialism. We f****d over Africa for so long and so badly and still do. Weapons are funneled in to fuel wars but there is little to no FDI going towards schools or infrastructure.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Zimbabwe is the perfect example of this, a country were most people were educated, employed and could feed themselves, whilst providing an excess for export markets failed when Mugabe showed his true colours and replaced competent white people with cronies who don't have a clue. Look at the country which benefited from those farmers, Zambia, 100 white farming families moved to Zambia, in the space of 12 months they managed to turn around Zambia's agricultural industry and make it work, the country can no feed itself.

You just proved my point with this statement. It is/was the white people who are educated while the blacks were not provided with the same opportunities for education. Thus, no blacks who can run their own country. I don't think much of Mugabe, but I don't blame him for wanting to kick out the whites from government positions. After all, they were the ones who had dominated the blacks for decades. Once again, blowback.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 30):
I strongly disagree. many of the current problems on the African continent can be traced back to colonialism. We f****d over Africa for so long and so badly and still do. Weapons are funneled in to fuel wars but there is little to no FDI going towards schools or infrastructure.

BS, Africa has had long enough to sort out its issues and can't blame the former colonial masters for the mess they have gotten themselves into today. I think we should cut all aid, close the door and come back in 20 years.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 30):
You just proved my point with this statement. It is/was the white people who are educated while the blacks were not provided with the same opportunities for education. Thus, no blacks who can run their own country. I don't think much of Mugabe, but I don't blame him for wanting to kick out the whites from government positions. After all, they were the ones who had dominated the blacks for decades. Once again, blowback.

You didn't read properly, in Zimbabwe there was 90% literacy, the country was educated, it could feed itself, it had functioning agriculture and industry then a racist incompetent dictator decided he'd screw over his entire country and kick out whitey, millions of people lost their jobs, production dropped, hyperinflation, rigged elections and now everyone is waiting for him to die. From most of what I've read most Zim's would like the white people back, that horse has bolted and now they are going to have to sort themselves out, I don't think they can.

White people were not the problem, white people are the solution but we can't say that because it's racist, yet the success of former white Zim's who moved to Zambia and other African nations kinda nails home the point. White people solved Zambia's agricultural issues, Zambia can now feed itself, go figure.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:25 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
I think it's simple Asians work there arses off.

There is certainly truth to that, at least when we are talking about Asians from Southeast Asia / Eastern Asia. There's no avoiding the fact that there are cultural issues in Africa that are also harming the development.

Let me give you a real life example:

A Finnish development aid organization funded a program that was meant to help local villagers in an Eastern African country to adopt more effective farming methods. Local men from that village were trained to use a tractor which was given to them for free, and all the other knowledge they would need to be able to work in their fields in more effective manner.

A year or so later those development aid people came back to see how well things had worked out for the villagers. The tractor was standing where it had been left, totally unused. The men were doing nothing, instead they put their wives into the fields as the tradition was.

The working ethics in different cultures do certainly vary rather much.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 16):
I think we should build and fund some refugee camps in North Africa

Balfour declaration circa 2015.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
If there's a side that deserves support in that conflict (apart from the Kurds) that's Assad,

I can speak on behalf of the majority of Syrians, they don't neither want Assad nor any Islamist kind of ruling.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
BS, Africa has had long enough to sort out its issues and can't blame the former colonial masters for the mess they have gotten themselves into today. I think we should cut all aid, close the door and come back in 20 years.

Western powers are still supporting dictators in Africa. Western powers are still extracting resources in Africa. Western powers are still selling stuff to Africans. If Africa wasn't profitable for the West, that wouldn't happen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):

And, as can be seen by the french intervention in Mali, there is still a considerable amount of interference there.

The issue of artificially creating countries in Africa while completely disregarding the local tribe structure is still an issue as of today.

However - and while this might not be political correct - there seems to be some truth that all the countries where the white upperclass has been replaced by black people seem to have screwed up. Zimbabwe is the worst example, but also South Africa is having issues of corruption in the ANC.

I think Africa has to stop blaming colonialism for everything. There is truth in it, but they need to get functioning structures themselves.
 
GDB
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
Western powers are still supporting dictators in Africa.

By far and away the most interfering Western nation in Africa these past 50 plus years has been France.
For decades via a branch of the French government more secretive than the intelligence services.
Indeed some wonder just how independent some of these nations have really been.
Some of the very worst butchers always welcome in Paris, where they have had property too, to sign a deal with Total Oil, or some other business and/or government entity.

(When CDG vetoed UK entry in the then EEC in the early 60's he cited our relationship with what by then had become the Commonwealth and the trade arrangements we had with them as not fitting in with the EEC. Despite France retaining just such if not deeper ones with their former colonies, so we are well used to French double standards on this).

It's reducing though, despite Mali (which was more about fighting fundamentalism), China is taking the place of 'Western' powers.

And I have heard enough people of African descent in London speaking French to know that not all who come from former colonies are from ex British ones.
There is also a reason why Rwanda wanted to join the Commonwealth.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
Which is not Europe's problem and we shouldn't have to bear the brunt of their dissatisfaction in the political situation in their homelands.

Exactly. Gather them up (whether in France or the UK) and repatriate them to their country of origin.

They can use their remarkable energy that brought them to Europe to create new businesses at home (Eritrea, Syria, Iraq, wherever), where they belong, rather than just looking for the easy life in Europe.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
Western powers are still supporting dictators in Africa. Western powers are still extracting resources in Africa. Western powers are still selling stuff to Africans. If Africa wasn't profitable for the West, that wouldn't happen.

I never realized China was a western power, they are spending more than anyone else in Africa.
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 37):
They can use their remarkable energy that brought them to Europe to create new businesses at home

That's like telling your 16 year old that they must spend their money towards a bottom-of-the-line Samsung with 5 year old technology instead of buying the new iPhone right in front of them. Why work in a sh*thole just to afford basics like a decent flat and second hand car when you can work in London and have a shot at striking it rich?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
You reap what you sow, they want to go to the UK because they have family there.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
In the south you also seem to have plenty of low paying jobs to offer to them, we really don't.
Quoting GDB (Reply 36):
nd I have heard enough people of African descent in London speaking French to know that not all who come from former colonies are from ex British ones.

The UK is desirable for the Africans for the same reason it's a popular destination whenever a new country is added to the EU.

The UK, especially in London, are more like pure capitalists with less worship of government regulations and the labour traditions of their own culture. Like the Americans, they happily hire new arrivals, regardless of legality, because it's quite handy to have a low-wage workforce in place. If they moved Texas across the border from France, all the Africans would be flocking straight there because they'd get a job the day of arrival working construction and building new houses, doing farm labour, working in restaurants etc...

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 30):
Thus, no blacks who can run their own country.

We are each the master of our own destiny, whether we accept it or not. Everyone has the government they deserve.




Pu.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
if you have to shoot a few to stop the rest coming, so be it.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 5):
I agree. That will stop them !

I was going to write that an estimated 3,500 people died trying to cross the Mediterranean in 2014, and yet by the time 2015 is over, more will have attempted the crossing than in any other year, obviously undeterred by the risk of death, or that 9 have already died in Calais trying to sneak into the tunnel, and yet there too they keep coming. Or yet again that the number of illegal immigrants who successfully entered the UK through Calais is estimated to be about only 2% of the annual total.

But instead I thought I’d ask you for your number. How many is a few? How many would you like to see shot? How many bodies do you think it will take to stop them? Don’t be afraid to be specific, I promise I will not hold it against you if you are ever proven wrong. But do remember, death doesn’t seem to scare them that much, so don’t be timid, make sure it is an impressive number. I can’t wait.

In the meantime, I thought I’d share my number. It’s 2. The number of despicable individuals I’d want shot to see whether such repugnant, embarrassing ideas ever sprout again.
Corona is God’s punishment for the amoral, principles-free, holier-than-thou Evangelicals. The rest of us are just collateral damage
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12635
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:08 am

being shot by the authorities in the country you want to reach is completely different animal than dying on the journey, it's a different risk, it shouts out loud that you are not welcome.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 40):
In the meantime,

Take a pill and chill. Seek help in fact !

Im not even going to both to explain.

If you can't see the whole picture, then don't bother me.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 41):
it shouts out loud that you are not welcome.

Wouldn't you think so.....?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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moo
Posts: 4903
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting pu (Reply 39):
The UK, especially in London, are more like pure capitalists with less worship of government regulations and the labour traditions of their own culture. Like the Americans, they happily hire new arrivals, regardless of legality, because it's quite handy to have a low-wage workforce in place.

That's a fairly huge generalisation...

Here in the UK, legitimate employers are very on the ball when it comes to legality to work - what you generally find is that illegal immigrants are generally either employed by employers who think they are legal workers (ie, false documentation) or employers who simply don't care and often are dodgy in other areas, such as not declaring tax, poor hygiene in a restaurant, illegal hours etc.

Illegal workers are frowned upon by the legal population, we dont in general accept it.

The reason why the UK is a target is because our currency is strong and stable, and thus its easy to send a lot more money home to family in other countries than it is in other EU countries. Illegal workers can live in London on a few hundred quid a month (illegal landlords putting 20 or more people in a three bedroom house typically unfit for legal occupation by a single family of four, dumpster diving for food in local supermarkets or being sold expired products out the backdoor of independently owned supermarkets etc etc) leaving them able to send several hundred quid home a month.
 
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cougar15
Posts: 1425
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):
And this is where Europe needs to look towards Australia's successful policy of turning back the boats.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Indonesia doesn't want them either, but they allowed them to transit their country so I don't see the issue with Australia returning the boats to Indonesia or Europe returning the boasts to Morocco or whichever North African country they departed from. It's then up to those countries to shore up their borders.

Ok, after your second post and with all due respect, I think your views are a little very right wing.
Forget my Flag, I am a born & bred Aussie and do not for one Minute agree with their policy on this at all. turning back boats at the threat of force from a Warship is about as hardcore as it becomes. where is Basic human compassion and even a grain of human rights in all of this. how often is it obvious that These vessels are totally unseaworthy - god only knows how they actually made it to the top end - and how often will sending These back surely entail huge loss of life due to seaworthyness issues? Whats gonna be next, an Indonesian Cruiseship in distress will get HMS Canberra rock up & fire a warning shot across it´s bow to piss of & leave ´Australian waters´? No, I dont share MY goverments view on this at all!

Back to the channel, my employer sends a 100 trucks thru the tunnel daily. we and our customers are hugely affected by what is going on, to the extent that we are forced to fly floppen widebodies across the channel each & every night to rescue this freight! So I do have an objective & subjective opinion on this from ´both Ends of the stick´

This Problem is a homemade Problem - I entirely agree (with my german goggles on).

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 22):
I know that. You find this kind of Dorftrottel behaviour in every german rural town, even between cologne and Bonn.

Agree with you entirely, but of course (and yes, Germany has by far the largest intake - with all assiciated Problems for local communities who bear the brunt - 90000 alone last month AND (the Germans) do their best to look after them - unlike a certain little isle across the channel who now hide from their ´historic´ responsibility (after colonizing most of these countries of the refugees origin in years past 200 odd years).

However, Germany also has huge issues - of a luxury sort- Unemployment is at record lows, try findning a german to look after your 88 year old mum as a Carer (Pflegedienste) and you will not. Population is decreasing at astonishing rates due to a lack of births - who ´s gonna pay my Pension if I stick around here? Every well educated Syrian, Iraqi etc should (and is - at least by EU Standards) being embraced with open arms here - rightly so! Pure economic refugees, that is another subject that Needs dealing with, but this reply has become way too long already!
Every coin has 2 sides.....................
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4739
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:31 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Why should we throw local producers under the bus?

Why should European farmers be exempt from having to compete at a global level like every other industry?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:37 am

The problem is actually the opposite : heavily subsidized Western agricultural products (including powdered milk) flooding African markets, killing the local farmer.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14692
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:29 am

I would add as to the UK is probably the least hostile as to many faiths and has weaker labor laws vs. France, Germany and other EC countries.
 
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moo
Posts: 4903
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 46):
Why should European farmers be exempt from having to compete at a global level like every other industry?

Agriculture is one thing that a country should be free to protect, as all countries need a fall back domestic food production capability in times of major global issue.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 47):
The problem is actually the opposite : heavily subsidized Western agricultural products (including powdered milk) flooding African markets, killing the local farmer.

I would be interested to hear if you have spent any time in African countries at all...

Zimbabwe used to be called the bread basket of Africa - it is no longer called that, but not because its been destroyed by Western trade practices, but because it drove its white farmers out and gave their land to government cronies. Coincidentally, a lot of exiled white farmers moved to Zambia where they have revolutionised local farming practices and increased farming output dramatically. Where the Zambian government was initially concerned about white farmers coming in, and many people wanted solidarity with Zimbabwe, they are now offering incentives for exiled white farmers to set up in Zambia.

For my time in Uganda, the vast majority of farming done there is either subsistence or cattle (as a cattle herd is a sign of prosperity) - the only grand scale agriculture is purely for export (pineapples is a major export) and thats growing year on year.

I have visited a lot of African countries, and the local farmer is not being killed at all - that's largely a myth.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 48):
I would add as to the UK ... has weaker labor laws vs. France, Germany and other EC countries.

Thank goodness for that. I often look around at different countries, and I have to say I breathe a sigh of relief at our sane labour laws compared to many other top tier countries.

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