na
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 148):
So, let me get this straight...You haven't even been in this country 6 months, you're now having your food and accommodations in prison paid for by the taxpayer, while his wife and 9 children are now in city housing.

Well, I'm of the opinion we ship him back to Syria. You came here, and clearly have no intention of integrating, and just want to mooch the system. Bugger off.

I wonder how such people are being accepted anywhere. Still it happens every day. How did he come to Canada with nine kids? Must be (or have been) a rich ass.....
 
diverted
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting na (Reply 150):
I wonder how such people are being accepted anywhere. Still it happens every day. How did he come to Canada with nine kids? Must be (or have been) a rich ass.....

I ask the same question...meanwhile an acquaintance of mine has been trying to get her Chinese parents here for years, and they're still expecting it to take years longer. But hey, "We're afraid of persecution from Al-Qaeda" seems to be the golden ticket to get in...
 
rugger
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:57 am

Why can't these countries in Europe embrace diversity instead of fighting it? I mean they've been promoting it for years! It's bound to happen you know.
 
na
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting Rugger (Reply 152):

Why can't these countries in Europe embrace diversity instead of fighting it? I mean they've been promoting it for years! It's bound to happen you know.

Largely its happening, and many people are not against it. As a longterm project I am not against it at all. The problem however is the sudden explosion in numbers. Houses for 3/4 of a million refugees and "refugees" are not built by 3D-printers overnight. And the thousands of language teachers etc. who need to teach them German and basic law are not sitting on the street waiting for them.

Meanwhile, in a riot among about 50 refugees in eastern Germany the police was attacked and some injured. Cause: a fight over the Quoran. Some people dont belong here. If someone starts a riot I´d send the troublemakers to the border straightaway. Law comes first, the Quoran second. Who does not accept that is in the wrong country.
 
dc863
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:16 am

Where are these migrants going to find work? There aren't jobs for these people. East Europe has unemployment issues, France is practically bankrupt and the UK is on financial thin ice as well.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:26 am

Quoting Rugger (Reply 152):
Why can't these countries in Europe embrace diversity instead of fighting it? I mean they've been promoting it for years! It's bound to happen you know.

Diversity is good only if all sides play by common rules and respect same core values of democracy, freedom of speech and general human rights. That's not what happens when we import refugees from very religiously conservative parts of the world and then fail to integrate and westernize them. No, when integration fails people tend to keep the values of their country of origin rather than adapting those of their new home country, and that's a problem when the country of origin is something like Somalia or Iraq.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 146):
Surely someone from Ghana, a former British colony and Commonwealth country has more moral claim on coming to the UK than someone from Bulgaria does?

No not deepest darkest Africa, but New Zealand, Australia, Canada should have more rights.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:47 am

The frightening thing is, that the religious radicals come to Europe and try to establish the conditions they fled from.

That is a matter the moderate Muslims living in Europe have to get under ´control, in their own good interest.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
speedbird217
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:02 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015...e/ap-eu-germany-migrants.html?_r=0

This should be reason enough to immediately send everybody involved back to wherever they came from.
But I somehow have a feeling that won't happen...
 
na
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 158):
This should be reason enough to immediately send everybody involved back to wherever they came from.

I agree. Its freedom of speech if someone denounces the Quoran. In Germany every muslim has to accept that, or go elsewhere.
 
rugger
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:01 pm

But isn't diversity the acceptance of all people regardless of culture, race and religion? You can't pick and choose as you please. In Germany a lot of migrants don't speak German, and don't intend to either.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:10 am

Igf you do no speak the language you will not find a Job. Knowing the language at least in bsics is essential. Of course we accept People of all races and religions, but everybody has to accept that not a religious book is supreme. The law stands above everything, also the Quran and only the state has the exlusive power to enforce the law. Self justice, like we have seen in Suhl, is a crime.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting Rugger (Reply 160):
But isn't diversity the acceptance of all people regardless of culture, race and religion? You can't pick and choose as you please. In Germany a lot of migrants don't speak German, and don't intend to either.

Do you think we should tolerate the intolerant? Should an ISIS supporter feel welcome and tolerated in Europe in name of diversity? I think not.

I'm fine with somebody not learning my country's language if he/she can find employment without it, which very rarely is the case.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting na (Reply 143):
The French authorities apparently dont care, they take those men (I am sure they are almost all young men) as hostages to get more pay from Britain instead of transporting them to southern France or elsewhere.

The French authorities have sent thousands of soldiers in Africa. How many Germans, how many Britons ?

10000 soldiers are deployed on French territory, protecting religious places and potential targets since the January terrorist attacks.

There is no available facility to put migrants in, neither in the north or in the south of the country.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
na
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:30 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 163):
The French authorities have sent thousands of soldiers in Africa. How many Germans, how many Britons ?

They are elsewhere where its "burning". And as much as I know the French soldiers in Africa are mainly in countries which were former colonies and with which they still have stronger connections than others.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 163):
There is no available facility to put migrants in, neither in the north or in the south of the country.

That cannot be an excuse to let them move on to somewhere else (wher its likely no better). Use old barracks, convert empty office buildings, use containers, build new houses. Same as is being done here in Germany (although also too slow for the exploding demand). In January 300.000 refugees and "refugees" were expected to come to Germany in 2015, now its more like 700.000+.
In todays news Hollande and Merkel are about to meet in berlin on monday to discuss and to take the lead in the refugee crisis towards a solution that EVERY European country takes responsibility.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 163):
There is no available facility to put migrants in, neither in the north or in the south of the country.

Besides the fact that we could not even defend our own Country as we thought that we are surrounded by friends only (that's true only for the countries bordering direct). We have soldiers stationed in Kosovo and Afghanistan in Turkey (Ends in December) and even some in Mali. Plus Navy parolling in the Mediterranean and off Somalia. That's not complete.

NA said it already, we are flooded with immigrants and they are dumped on the cities by the bus loads with Little notice. That takes a lot of flexibility. The only Interims solution is to put them up in large tents. Don't tell me that Fraqnce has no empty buildings, barracks or sites where living Containers or tents can be put up.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:39 pm

What I'm most worried of is what happens when "refugees" hear they aren't going to get asylum, yet at worst they may still have months or even a year of time here to spend before getting deported. If you are going to get deported to a place where you have little hope of better future you may as well commit a crime to get some extra time to spend in a luxurious western prison.

I wouldn't be surprised if we are going to see a significant increase in random acts of crime as this madness continues.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
vc10
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:50 pm

Some Facts

Population density of some European Countries in 2014

France----------------- 103 per sq km

Italy--------------------- 205 per sq km

Germany--------------- 227 per sq km

UK---------------------- 262 per sq km

Note looking just at England the figure is 395 per sq km

So you can see the UK is already well populated when compared to the others


Migrants per Country in 2013 [ accept this might be slightly different in 2015]

France-------------------- 7,5 million 11.6 % of population

Germany------------------ 9.8 million 11.9 % of population

U K------------------------- 7.8 million 12.4 % of population

What I want to show is that European countries already have a large immigrant population. so how many more are they expected to take.
When is enough, enough. If another 50 million turn up do we take them as well?

little vc10
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:13 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34023361

Public transport is certainly getting interesting in modern Europe when your fellow passenger is a North African with a Kalashnikov. Thankfully nobody died, though two seriously injured so that might change.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 167):
When is enough, enough. If another 50 million turn up do we take them as well?

Hell no we don't. We should be shutting and bolting the door and defending it with vigour, to hell with the lefty liberals.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:40 pm

I read that FYR Macedonia has sealed their border to all migrants and have tear gassed the rowdier ones. Slovakia has said it will not take any Muslims.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
diverted
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 170):
I read that FYR Macedonia has sealed their border to all migrants and have tear gassed the rowdier ones. Slovakia has said it will not take any Muslims.

I believe Hungary is doing something similar as well. Good to see someone take a stand.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:05 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 165):
Don't tell me that France has no empty buildings, barracks or sites where living Containers or tents can be put up.

Well France has been in a housing crisis for more than a decade. More and more middle class people are living in projects because that's the only thing they can afford. The only empty buildings are office buildings, not suitable for housing, and not owned by the state anyway.

Besides, housing those migrants would send the wrong message, don't you think ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PanHAM
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:36 am

Understand. We still have a lot of empty barracks available. Some German refugees from the Eastern parts of Germany lived up until the 60s in such barracks, Should be good enough for those flooding in today as well.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 172):
Besides, housing those migrants would send the wrong message, don't you think ?

Thze message they have is getting to the promised land by all means. Putting them up in tents can only be an interims solution. Fact is they are coming in illegaly, they do not accept any rules but we cannot let them starv and freeze to death inthe open. The Money all that costs (the tab for Germany will be 10 Billion € alone this year) will be much better used closer to their home or in the countries they are coming from. But how can the living conditions in their homelands be changed when dictators have te same vote in the UN democratic confessed countries have? . .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 173):
Putting them up in tents can only be an interims solution.

I find it amusing that all these lefty nutters are having a cow at putting these guys in tents, it's better accommodation than most of them probably had at home, with the odd exceptions of course.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 24):

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
We have to get tough on illegal immigration, these aren't refugees they are mostly illegal economic migrants, if you have to shoot a few to stop the rest coming, so be it.

Good idea, why don't we just start shooting random people!   
I used to think conservative Americans had backwards views on immigration, but you Europeans really take the cake.

Before tarring Europeans with a brush, one poster you cite is a Kiwi the other from Oz.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
rugger
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 162):
Do you think we should tolerate the intolerant? Should an ISIS supporter feel welcome and tolerated in Europe in name of diversity? I think not.

Finally someone with some sense. People have to realize that you can't just open the floodgates and let any an all who want to immigrate come in just because you want your country to be diverse. Norway has the concept of "quality immigrants" which translates into immigrants who are educated, have a skill that can be used to support themselves. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But then again you have your crowd that is sitting there to cry racism at the first attempt to deny entry to any ISIS member who wants to immigrate.

Sometimes you just have to do things to keep your country safe and provide for the safety of your citizens.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 166):
What I'm most worried of is what happens when "refugees" hear they aren't going to get asylum, yet at worst they may still have months or even a year of time here to spend before getting deported.

And this is a very valid concern too.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:14 am

Quoting Rugger (Reply 176):
There is nothing wrong with that at all.

I disagree. Skilled people should have opportunities in their own country, that's the only way those countries can climb out of the gutter and give opportunities to the rest of the population.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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winterlight
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 157):
The frightening thing is, that the religious radicals come to Europe and try to establish the conditions they fled from.

Western governments are tearing apart the ME and north Africa exactly for his reason. Now we see lefty liberals teaming up with radial Islam to take over Europe. The goal is to eradicate western civilization as we know it.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:57 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 157):
The frightening thing is, that the religious radicals come to Europe and try to establish the conditions they fled from.

You're putting everybody in the same basket. Those who flee ISIS aren't going to want the same thing here. Now, there may be (but that's not proven so far) ISIS sympathizers among the refugees, but those particular individuals wouldn't be fleeing, they would be infiltrating.

I'm not sure it even makes sense as ISIS current goal has nothing to do with Europe, their caliphate is not here and will not be until it has conquered at least the Middle East, Africa, Turkey...

The people who are trying to change Western countries have nothing to do with ISIS, much more to do with Saudi Arabia (salafists) and the Muslim Brotherhood. We're talking about people who have emigrated to Europe years or decades ago here.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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winterlight
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:06 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 179):
much more to do with Saudi Arabia (salafists) and the Muslim Brotherhood.

That's why Cameron and the like are so cosy with Saudia and Qatar. (Wahhabi's)
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:03 pm

Quoting na (Reply 147):
For example every refugee should swear that he/she agrees in German law comes before religion. That will prevent any islamist from staying here.

Of course it will.   What could possibly go wrong? Just making them swear on something they probably very often do not even comprehend (superiority of secular laws over religious), sure will fix the whole problem of influx of extremists.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 179):
Those who flee ISIS aren't going to want the same thing here.

That's naive. Google up Banaz Mahmod. Her father fled Saddam Hussein and was granted asylum in the UK. She was forced into arranged marriage and later murdered by her own family because she ran away from her abusive husband and fell in love with someone else.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 181):
That's naive. Google up Banaz Mahmod. Her father fled Saddam Hussein and was granted asylum in the UK. She was forced into arranged marriage and later murdered by her own family because she ran away from her abusive husband and fell in love with someone else.

Actually that's exactly what I'm saying. Immigrants who came years ago. If they fled Saddam then they were probably too religious for him, not the opposite. The UK took plenty of such refugees (religious fanatics persecuted by secular governments) for some reason, let them preach hate openly, etc., then blames the EU with its problems.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
777way
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:06 pm

Why areant Arab countries taking them in, keep them in camps as refugees and provide the basics, hire them for ordinary work like labour and the like, dont give them citizenship let their kids attend govt. schools and colleges, if they qualify for better private education through scholarships then let them have that too.

Rant is for the Gulf states only.
 
Flighty
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 183):

Why areant Arab countries taking them in,

Because nobody wants to migrate to Arab countries.

They want to migrate to Western democracies that provide a lifestyle to anybody who shows up. And a superior working environment with 5x-25x higher wages than countries of origin. Half of humanity are eligible to become "economic refugees" to Western democracies.

All you need to do is break into those countries, and your destiny is secure.

[Edited 2015-08-29 10:49:41]
 
777way
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:49 pm

I'm suggesting that they be fostered as refugees in camps to return home when things improve not stay on an immigrants, the west really needs to crack down on this illegal economic immigration and soon.
 
diverted
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 183):
Why areant Arab countries taking them in, keep them in camps as refugees and provide the basics, hire them for ordinary work like labour and the like, dont give them citizenship let their kids attend govt. schools and colleges, if they qualify for better private education through scholarships then let them have that too.

Rant is for the Gulf states only.

This guy has his head on straight. Probably the smartest post in the thread.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 184):
Because nobody wants to migrate to Arab countries.

They want to migrate to Western democracies that provide a lifestyle to anybody who shows up. And a superior working environment with 5x-25x higher wages than countries of origin. Half of humanity are eligible to become "economic refugees" to Western democracies.

Turn the boats around and tell them they can go to x number of middle eastern countries, but they will not be admitted into Europe. Why doesn't Qatar/UAE/Pakistan/et al step up?

...crickets...
 
777way
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 186):
Pakistan

Pakistan is not Middle East its South Asian part of the Indian subcontinent, and its a fairly poor country, many from here go ilegally to the places mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.
 
diverted
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 187):
Pakistan is not Middle East its South Asian part of the Indian subcontinent, and its a fairly poor country, many from here go ilegally to the places mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.

Sorry, allow me to rephrase. Muslim countries. My apologies, but the point stands. Greece is a poor country too, they have people pouring in right now.

Anyways, I was more directing the point to the countries like the UAE and Qatar.

I've seen a bunch of stories recently of these people refusing aid/food from the red cross because of the cross on it. Really? Why are they being let in?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 188):
I've seen a bunch of stories recently of these people refusing aid/food from the red cross because of the cross on it. Really? Why are they being let in?

I have seen this video too, but AFAIK it has nothing to do with the Red Cross on the food boxes. The issue is people getting stuck in the border area between Macedonia and Greece. Up to recently Macedonia would move refugees coming from Greece up north to the Serb border, from where they could travel to central and northern Europe. They even provided special trains and busses from them. Their only requirement was that the refigees had to have themselves fingerprinted and registered at the border. But due to the recent surge of refugees, the Macedonian government got overwhelmed and decided to close their border for refugees from Greece.
There have been riots already between Macedonian police and refugees, who wanted to break through the barbed wire.
The refugees in the video don't want Red Cross parcels, they want to be let through.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
777way
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:26 pm

Just because we are Muslim dosent mean we have the means to support misplaced people of our faith, when cant feed and clothe some of our own, there are no jobs, poor are working for measely sums and some on daily wages, already Pakistan hosted Afghans the largest refugee group in the world, most have left but some still are here and in camps I think.

Yes if we were filthy rich we could have taken them in and done what I suggested in my fisrt post, but not let them be immigrants.
 
diverted
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 190):
Yes if we were filthy rich we could have taken them in and done what I suggested in my fisrt post, but not let them be immigrants.

The UAE/Qatar/Saudi Arabian's among others have lots of money.

I feel pretty cautious about a huge influx of people from a completely different culture, and as evidenced by the riots, attempted lynchings for tearing a Quaran, etc. I don't know that it's such a great idea to allow mass immigration into Europe.

It would be much more prudent to have neighbouring countries take them, and in the meantime all the resources being wasted in Europe shuffling these people all over the continent and building fenes could be redeployed in aid to their home lands.

I mean, I understand why they want to leave. But at the same time, why not care for them if they can't care for themselves in an area close to home until such time as the political situation stabilizes.

Immigration is great, when done for the right reasons. IE, allowing people who provide tangible benefit to society, as opposed to anyone.

Furthermore, who's to say that these aren't Assad supporters or worse who are realizing that it's time to GTFO?
 
777way
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:51 pm

I totally support west on sendng them back, they cannot enter another country this way and demand to be kept and given citizenship, its not even allowed in Islam, people call in on religious shows asking for prayers to stay back and get legalised but they are told off by religious scholras its not an acceptable thing to do that and break a host countries laws, its a crime and thus a sin.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:05 pm

A while ago Germany's ultra serious "Zeit" weekly brought a refugee family from Afghanistan (a widow in her late 30s, early 40s with her two teenage childre, the father got killed by the Taliban) together with two elderly Germans, a brother and a sisterwho had to flee from East Prussia with their war widow mother ahead of the Soviets in 1945. The stories were surprisingly similar, including their reception in Western Germany,where the refugees from the East were seen as parasites back then, and the two Germans offered the Afghan family to stay in touch and to help them.

If I had a flat to rent out, I would do so for a family like this and help them to get themselves sorted here. I did a bit of the same (I don't own a house) for a Roma woman and her two daughters years ago.
But I'd be reluctant to take on single blokes.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Flighty
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:19 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 191):
I don't know that it's such a great idea to allow mass immigration into Europe.

It's not "allowed," it is a hostile invasion. Some would say genocidal, but I would not go that far.

My main point remains, if people want to live in highly civilized democracies, start at home. Put down your scripture and start reading textbooks. And obey the law. There is no moral integrity in committing crimes because you want to live in a civilized, wealthy, low crime democracy.

I want to live in the Pierre Hotel in New York. And I can, if I follow the steps. If I just bum rush the place, I fully expect to be thrown out.

[Edited 2015-08-29 15:20:19]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:30 pm

Of course let us not forget those that help smuggle people illegally all over the world and do so just for money. They are often persons involved with criminal organizations that often pay off key politicians, border security and local police staff. They don't care about the people or the needs or cause, just the last bits of money they can extract, maybe extort more from their families, even abandoning them for death once they got their money. Of course some of those in the smuggling trades are looking for fast cash, perhaps for their own need for cash, greed or drug habits

We saw yesterday 70 were found dead in an abandoned refrigerated box van truck from Hungary in eastern Austria, the dead apparently from Syria from some of the papers found on some of their bodies. This has also happened too many times into the USA as well with despite people found dead or near dead in box trucks, trailers, sea shipping containers and train freight cars.

The real problem needed to be address is why are all these people migrating from much of the world to the EC and the USA. Several factors seem to be in play:

No work, or not paying enough to survive on themselves or their families
Economic instability (even within the EC with Greece)
Not enough food, water or other needs
Consolidation of farms and ranches into large corporate ones with improved efficiency meaning fewer jobs.
Only a few very rich families control all the wealth, property and government and therefor the masses.
Massive corruption in their governments
Wars and conflicts over territory, ethnic/family clans, religion, water and mineral rights.
Ethnic Cleansing by governments or regional power groups
ISIS, al-Queda and other religious connected terrorism groups
Ethnic, tribal or religious discrimination
Women and children facing being put into the sex trades or being raped, sexually or otherwise abused
Droughts, short and long term climate change, lack of water or pollution, declining soils, crops ruined by blights, insect infestations, excess use of fertilizers or pesticides or destruction as part of wars and conflicts
Political repression, arrest, imprisonment or fear of it.
In some places the violence of the drug trade over turf, rights, routes.
Populations too large to be supported by the land.
Land and wealth confiscated or taken by powerful persons, corporations, governments including for mineral wealth, cattle or farming
The long-term affects of European and USA colonialism, economic and local political control

Until we can deal with issues such as these, more will continue to risk losing their life for survival for themselves or their families by taking the life threatening migration to the EC and the USA.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 195):
Until we can deal with issues such as these, more will continue to risk losing their life for survival for themselves or their families by taking the life threatening migration to the EC and the USA.

You ignore something important. All your points are true, however emmigration of large numbers of people from such country acts as a safety valve for the current corrupt regimes. Do you think Mexico would be the same as today if they had to deal with an additional 12-15 million illegals who are currently in the US? I suspect that if they stayed in Mexico (representing most of them), social pressures there would more quickly reach a critical mass forcing the Mexican government to deal with the poverty, corruption and other problems. Allowing the malcontents to simply leave is the greatest gift such governments get from 1st world countries.

[Edited 2015-08-29 21:32:37]
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
diverted
Posts: 1256
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:42 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 194):
It's not "allowed," it is a hostile invasion. Some would say genocidal, but I would not go that far.

Yes, but the UN and others don't seem to think that there's any issue, and in fact, should make it easier for them to get in.

Quote:
"I appeal to all governments involved to provide comprehensive responses, expand safe and legal channels of migration and act with humanity, compassion and in accordance with their international obligations.

-UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon

IMHO they should be spending their time figuring out where to build refugee camps in these peoples homelands. Let them know that 70 people were found dead in a truck, that hundreds have drowned, and that even if they do make it to Europe they'll be turned around and told to get back onto the boat they came on.

Does it sound cruel? Absolutely. However, there's legal channels for immigration and this isn't it.


At the same time, I think that it's going to take a concerted effort by the Europeans as well as US/Canada and many others to help with aid to convince these people to stay where they are. If Western countries hadn't been playing around in the sandbox the last 100 years or so, things would probably be more stable, so delivering food, tents and other aid is something I feel is necessary.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 195):
No work, or not paying enough to survive on themselves or their families
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 195):
Economic instability (even within the EC with Greece)
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 195):
Only a few very rich families control all the wealth, property and government and therefor the masses.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 195):
Massive corruption in their governments
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 195):
Political repression, arrest, imprisonment or fear of it.

These often go together. E.g. in the Philippines you have the issue of the "Political dynasties", of rich families, who are also, since generations, represented in congress and government (both on provincial and naition level) and which treat their positions as family heirlooms.
Most of these families (the "illustrados") got already rich under Spanish colonial rule as large scale land and plantation owners,later rebelled against the Spanish, but then, during the Filipino-american War changed their allegiance to the Americans and then got rewarded by them by being given more land, which was confiscated from their former Spanish owners and the Catholic Church. These families are not distinguishing between personal property and state property and are using their positions as provincial governors, congress men, senators or state government presidents or ministers to further their own family's aims. They buy votes or coerce the people working for them to vote for them and some of them even have private armies.
Most of the commonly known Filipino politician come from such families, like president Aquino, the former presidents Macapagal-Arroyo and Ramos, leaders of the opposition like Marcos etc., other names would be Cojunagco and Ayala or Tan. They often own business empires, made easier as the current constitutuion prohibits foreigners from owning land or businesses. These families are not interested in the wellbeing of the average Filipino, but only inincreasing the wealth and influence of their family clan. Every congessman, senator or provincial governor has a tax money provided "pork barrel" fund, from which he can finance his pet projects completely unaccounted and which is often used for dodgy deals.
I have seen it on the island of Negros, where most of agriculture is sugar cane plantations. Sugar cane requires a large seasonal work force, during planting and harvesting, for the rest of the year there is little to do. The plantation owners want to have a large seasonal workforce and have no interest in having other businesses to appear, which would offer the seasonal workers employment the whole year around, as then theywould not be available to harvest or plant the sugar cane. The high rural poverty leads to many of the poor people falling for the rat catchers of the Maoist NPA.

The safety valve for the Philippines are their overseas workers, hard working and often educated people, who go abroad instead of increasing local unemployment and who even send money back (of which the rich families also get their share, as the only way the locals can spend it is in shops owned by these families).


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
777way
Posts: 6457
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 197):
Quote:
"I appeal to all governments involved to provide comprehensive responses, expand safe and legal channels of migration and act with humanity, compassion and in accordance with their international obligations.

-UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon

Gulf states fit this.

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