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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
BS, Africa has had long enough to sort out its issues and can't blame the former colonial masters for the mess they have gotten themselves into today. I think we should cut all aid, close the door and come back in 20 years.

Long enough, what a joke. The west only stopped meddling heavily in the affairs of African nations with the end of the cold war, and since then, it has not stopped entirely. As for cutting all aid, the amount the west (particularly the U.S.) gives to Africa is pitiful, with the majority of that pitiful amount going to Egypt.

Quoting pu (Reply 39):
We are each the master of our own destiny, whether we accept it or not. Everyone has the government they deserve.

Except when you are enslaved or relegated to being a second-class citizen with hardly any opportunities for education, job training and are barred from holding any good jobs should you be lucky enough to gain a good education.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 42):
If you can't see the whole picture, then don't bother me.

With all due respect, it would seem that it is you who cannot see the whole picture. Shooting people who are trying to make a better life for themselves is despicable. For centuries, Europeans left their home countries to settle in others, displacing and killing an incalculable number of people in the process. When the Europeans colonized Africa, they took all the good land for themselves, and relegated the native inhabitants to the land not suitable for growing crops. They practically enslaved the Africans harvesting rubber, mining for precious minerals and building infrastructure that would serve mainly the whites. We literally enslaved millions more, uprooting them from their homeland and sending them halfway across the world to work in the sugar plantations of the Caribbean and the cotton fields of the United States. We attempted to strip them of their centuries-old customs and re-educate them because their ways were "uncivilized." While it is true that Africa was not nearly as developed as the west, before the Europeans showed up, they got along just fine. There were problems to be sure, but the Europeans made them worse by provoking old rivalries and arming the natives with weapons of much more lethal than those previously used. Any notion that colonization was done to benefit the natives is a steaming load of horse you-know-what.
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moo
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 50):
For centuries, Europeans left their home countries to settle in others, displacing and killing an incalculable number of people in the process.

Hahahahahahha - just where, exactly, do you think those Europeans came from in the first place?

Or is there some sort of arbitrary cut off point determined by you which helps your argument?

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 50):
We literally enslaved millions more, uprooting them from their homeland and sending them halfway across the world to work in the sugar plantations of the Caribbean and the cotton fields of the United States.

Yup we did. With a lot of native help - and slavery in Africa massively pre-dates the period you are talking about. It wasn't anything new, and it wasn't introduced by westerners.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 50):
We attempted to strip them of their centuries-old customs and re-educate them because their ways were "uncivilized."

Been going on all over the world for tens of thousands of years, whenever two cultures collide in fact.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 50):
Any notion that colonization was done to benefit the natives is a steaming load of horse you-know-what.

Any notion that the real reason matters one jot is an even larger pile of the same stuff.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 50):
u who cannot see the whole picture. Shooting people who are trying to make a better life for themselves is despicable. For centuries, Europeans left their home countries to settle in others, displacing and killing an incalculable number of people in the process. When the Europeans colonized Africa, they took all the good land for themselves, and relegated the native inhabitants to the land not suitable for growing crops. They practically enslaved the Africans harvesting rubber, mining for precious minerals and building infrastructure that would serve mainly the whites. We literally enslaved millions more, uprooting them from their homeland and sending them halfway across the world to work in the sugar plantations of the Caribbean and the cotton fields of the United States. We attempted to strip them of their centuries-old customs and re-educate them because their ways were "uncivilized.

Yep, and those Africans, Americans and Asians would have done the same to us if they had been the ones with biggest guns and most advanced technology in general. Just because our ancestors didn't respect modern ideals of human rights doesn't really mean we should accept mass immigration from developing world to Europe.

Obviously nobody should get shot, we should simply discourage others from trying the voyage by returning those caught to western funded refugee camps in some African and Middle Eastern countries.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 51):
Hahahahahahha - just where, exactly, do you think those Europeans came from in the first place?

Or is there some sort of arbitrary cut off point determined by you which helps your argument?

Historically speaking, all humans originally came from Africa, the Great Rift Valley to be specific. Over thousands of years, we migrated across the earth to inhabit regions that had never before been home to any humans. Then, starting in the late 1500s, but assuming a much more rapid pace in the late 1800s, Europeans began colonizing Africa. This process did not take place over thousands of years and had much more detrimental effects on the local populations, of which there were none to speak of during prehistoric times. I am not using any arbitrary cutoff date. What you are essentially doing, however, is conflating migration and colonization to justify your view that colonizing Africa was a good thing. Furthermore, if you have no problem with the European colonization of Africa, why are you up in arms when Africans want to come to Europe?

Quoting moo (Reply 51):
Yup we did. With a lot of native help - and slavery in Africa massively pre-dates the period you are talking about. It wasn't anything new, and it wasn't introduced by westerners.

Yes, slavery existed in Africa before the Europeans showed up. However, it did not exist in the same form or magnitude that it would after we showed up. Before the Europeans arrived, most slaves were people that had been on the losing side of a conflict. Also, in most cases, the people were not enslaved for the rest of their life and their children were generally born free. The Europeans (and Arabs) incentivized more slave taking by arming certain tribes and paying them handsomely for slaves they delivered. While slavery already existed, we unequivocally made the problem much, much worse.

Quoting moo (Reply 51):
Been going on all over the world for tens of thousands of years, whenever two cultures collide in fact.

That doesn't necessarily make it right.

Quoting moo (Reply 51):
Any notion that the real reason matters one jot is an even larger pile of the same stuff.

Really? I'd like to hear your logic to this. I argue that it matters very much. The main goal of the Europeans was to enrich their home countries and themselves. They threw a few bones to the natives to pacify them from uprising and overthrowing the European overlords. Any idea that colonization in any way helped the continent of Africa is absolutely naive.

[Edited 2015-08-03 09:38:33]

[Edited 2015-08-03 09:39:49]
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SOBHI51
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
Obviously nobody should get shot, we should simply discourage others from trying the voyage by returning those caught to western funded refugee camps in some African and Middle Eastern countries.

Send them to Israel, they are taking immigrants by the boat load, oh wait, they are not Jews, sorry.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
vc10
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 53):

Yes, slavery existed in Africa before the Europeans showed up. However, it did not exist in the same form or magnitude that it would after we showed up. Before the Europeans arrived, most slaves were people that had been on the losing side of a conflict. Also, in most cases, the people were not enslaved for the rest of their life and their

I suggest you read the following clip, and you will see that slavery was universal, and the pirates of North Africa up until about1830 took between 1 and 1.25 million European white slaves from all over Europe Before that northern Europe including the UK and Ireland were ravaged by the Vikings who needed slaves to sell to the slave markets of the Middle East as well as elsewhere
In fact Dublin, which was a Viking Town, was once the slaving capital of Europe. So you suggest that prior to the European arrival on the continent most of the slaves were as a result of loosing in battles, well there must have been a lot of battles to feed the Arab slave traffic,
As far as everything was getting along OK in Africa before the Europeans came along I suggest you read the history of the Zulu nation and how they came to power.
They were no worse or better than any other peoples at that time ,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

Could I also suggest that this topic gets back to it's original subject

littlevc10
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 55):
I suggest you read the following clip, and you will see that slavery was universal, and the pirates of North Africa up until about1830 took between 1 and 1.25 million European white slaves from all over Europe Before that northern Europe including the UK and Ireland

Did I ever suggest slavery did not exist elsewhere? No. However, the number of slaves taken from Africa dwarf those taken from any other place on earth.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 55):
As far as everything was getting along OK in Africa before the Europeans came along I suggest you read the history of the Zulu nation and how they came to power.

Did I suggest that there were no problems before the Europeans showed up? No. There always were, and always will be problems anywhere there is human habitation. Furthermore, I know all about the Zulus and the people they displaced, I go to an Ivy League school and have taken multiple classes dealing with the history and development of Africa. What I suggested was that the Europeans exacerbated problems that already existed for their own benefit. They (as well as the Arabs) incentivized more conflict by paying handsomely for slaves.

I am not so naive as to suggest that Africa was some sort of Utopia before the Europeans arrived, or that things would be perfect if we never interfered with African affairs. There were (and still are) customs that disadvantage women, and the continued identification of peoples along old tribal lines has in many ways hindered development. What I am suggesting is that European colonization did more harm than good. We did not become involved in African affairs to help the natives, we became involved to exploit them. If you think otherwise, I suggest reading King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild, it may make you think otherwise. What I am suggesting is that if the true goal of colonization was to help modernize Africa in the western sense, there are much better ways we could have gone about it. That is all.
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 54):
Send them to Israel, they are taking immigrants by the boat load, oh wait, they are not Jews, sorry.

I think it makes perfect sense that the refugees would be sent to a country with somewhat similar culture, religion and language if possible. I highly believe an average Syrian or Libyan Muslim refugee would have much easier time integrating to another Arab state rather than a Western European country.

KSA, Qatar, Bahrain, Iran and such should start showing global responsibility by taking Muslim refugees into their countries, for them lack of money isn't a valid excuse. Iran could take all the Shias, Arab states could take all the Sunnnis. We here in Europe could take all the Christians, Yazidis and other religions minorities whose rights would be best guaranteed here thanks to our religious freedom laws.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 45):
Forget my Flag, I am a born & bred Aussie and do not for one Minute agree with their policy on this at all. turning back boats at the threat of force from a Warship is about as hardcore as it becomes. where is Basic human compassion and even a grain of human rights in all of this.

Most of these people aren't refugees they are economic migrants and are trying to get around the system, there deserve what they get.

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 45):
how often is it obvious that These vessels are totally unseaworthy - god only knows how they actually made it to the top end - and how often will sending These back surely entail huge loss of life due to seaworthyness issues? Whats gonna be next, an Indonesian Cruiseship in distress will get HMS Canberra rock up & fire a warning shot across it´s bow to piss of & leave ´Australian waters´? No, I dont share MY goverments view on this at all!

These people are paying to get into these vessels, it's my, your or the Australian govts problem that these people are making stupid decisions putting there lives at risk.

A cruiseship in distress with fair paying passengers is a completely different issue.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 46):

Why should European farmers be exempt from having to compete at a global level like every other industry?

That's not just a European issue, farming subsidies and quotas are in most countries around the world, the only country I know of that is food quota and subsidy free is New Zealand, anyone can send anything to NZ so log as it meets food safety requirements.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 53):
Furthermore, if you have no problem with the European colonization of Africa, why are you up in arms when Africans want to come to Europe?

You're an American you don't see the problems, unlike Latino's who work there arses off, they have to the US doesn't have the social safety net most Eurpean countries have, the human refuse we get are different, they are lazy, they don't come to work, they come for benefits, they come to live an easy life off the hosts. Hence the reason why the make a beeline for France, Germany, UK, Scandinavia, and they aren't going to Poland, Italy, Geece, Romania, the Baltics.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 53):
Yes, slavery existed in Africa before the Europeans showed up. However, it did not exist in the same form or magnitude that it would after we showed up. Before the Europeans arrived, most slaves were people that had been on the losing side of a conflict. Also, in most cases, the people were not enslaved for the rest of their life and their children were generally born free.

That is simply untrue. Before the Europeans arrived the Arab slave trade was up and running supplying africans all over the near, middle and far east.

Quote:
Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken from Europe, Asia and Africa across the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara desert.

The Atlantic Slave trade involved about 10 million people.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
That is simply untrue. Before the Europeans arrived the Arab slave trade was up and running supplying africans all over the near, middle and far east.

And then the Europeans expanded upon what the Arabs had already started. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You can keep coming up with excuses to justify European imperialism/colonialism in Africa, but that does not change the fact that it did significantly more harm than good to the continent of Africa. End if story.
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:49 pm

So since the UK will be paying France to put up additional fencing and deploy additional security in France to protect the French side of the tunnel, does this violate any existing EU regulations?
The UK government has attempted to change benefits for migrants but was rebuffed by the EU, I guess the main question is if the UK benefits are "better" than other members why can they not be reduced?
 
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OA260
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 60):
does this violate any existing EU regulations?

I think there are clauses when it comes down to national security where emergency powers can be bought in.


Just last week border checks have come back between the UK/ROI to crack down on illegals.



Border control
Huge operation in north Louth targets illegal immigrants


A significant Garda operation targeting immigration was mounted on Monday, with traffic heading south on the M1 funnelled into Mountpleasant and alternative routes blocked off for hours, as part of the largest checkpoint of its kind ever seen on the border.

Dozens of Gardai were drafted in to man the checkpoints at Major's Hollow, the small roundabout off junction 18 on the motorway and portable loos were erected during the operation, which lasted around seven hours. From early in the morning, all southbound motorway traffic was diverted and roads at Thistle Cross were blocked to stop cars taking the alternative route. It was reported the motorway was closed due to an accident and while there was a minor single vehicle crash close to junction 18 on Monday, traffic was diverted because of the checkpoints.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/.../news/border-control-31393250.html



I expect the same to start happening all over Europe in the next 18 months. Governments are trying to bring these things in and some say things being suggested are stretching the EU rules as it is.

Quoting par13del (Reply 60):
I guess the main question is if the UK benefits are "better" than other members why can they not be reduced?

Do you mean reduced for non UK citizens?
 
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 61):
Do you mean reduced for non UK citizens?

Yes, I believe that is what the PM was talking about last year and the EU had issues with the proposals.
 
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 62):
Yes, I believe that is what the PM was talking about last year and the EU had issues with the proposals.

Well personally I dont think anyone who has not worked in a country for a set number of years should be entitled to anything. I would not expect to get on a flight to Paris,Frankfurt and sign on having not paid into that countries system at all. I know the EU rules may allow it but it does not make it right. I think this is just one area where the whole EU project needs to be looked at. It worked ok when the club was smaller and money was flush but its very different times now. With health services and benefit systems drastically different between member states its an area open to abuse.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 60):
So since the UK will be paying France to put up additional fencing and deploy additional security in France to protect the French side of the tunnel, does this violate any existing EU regulations?
The UK government has attempted to change benefits for migrants but was rebuffed by the EU, I guess the main question is if the UK benefits are "better" than other members why can they not be reduced?

I doubt UK benefits are better than French ones. Besides, to get benefits you must have a legal status. Yesterday on the evening news there was a Pakistani man in London saying he just got his papers (don't know the details, if it's citizenship or not), after 5 years as an illegal immigrant (not a refugee). If that is possible, then there is no stopping people from coming.

Not that France is much different, but our politicians are a bit less hypocrite about it.

A significant difference between our countries, though a diminishing one, are ethnic communities (communautarisme in French, I can't find an equivalent in English). It's perfectly normal and expected in the UK that immigrants with the same background will form a community, live together, marry together, keep all their cultural differences, and not integrate into local society. In France while it happens in some places, it's not seen as normal and local powers do their best to avoid it.

When you're living in a third world country and know that you can have a small version of your country in the UK, but infinitely more rich, why wouldn't you try to go there ?
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offloaded
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:40 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
They are overwhelmed and part of the nature of the EU is about working together. Of course with fights breaking out
( verbally ) between Western Europe and Southern Europe the cracks are showing. The attitude of ''we are alright Jack'' so get on with it is really not in keeping with the spirit of the EU or at least thats what was fed to us for years as ''EU Citizens''.

In 2014, a grand total of 447 people applied for asylum in Portugal. 135 were from Ukraine. Portugal is a very safe, and generally welcoming country, so why are more people coming here, or even being assigned here under a quota system? I'm guessing several factors, but the primary one is money. Benefits for the Portuguese are scant, let alone for immigrants. When the bottom fell out of our economy, even the PM suggested people emigrate, and tens of thousands of Portuguese did just that, even though the skill shortage that will hit this country in a few years is going to be huge.

Maybe even the geography affects us. We're Atlantic, not Med, so whilst the journey from Morocco isn't that far, it would be super risky in an unsafe craft.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 63):
Well personally I dont think anyone who has not worked in a country for a set number of years should be entitled to anything. I would not expect to get on a flight to Paris,Frankfurt and sign on having not paid into that countries system at all. I know the EU rules may allow it but it does not make it right. I think this is just one area where the whole EU project needs to be looked at.

You're right. People should not come to the EU expecting entitlements immediately upon arrival. However, there should be a path for them to gain them legally. If a refugee/immigrant comes to Britain, for example, there could be a requirement that before receiving any entitlements, that individual has to work and pay taxes for a set period of time and stay out of legal trouble. This solves two problems in that it incentivizes these people to quickly find a job, hold it down and stay out of trouble and it also ensures that the government does not bankrupt itself shelling out benefits to people who don't have any skin in the game.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 64):
It's perfectly normal and expected in the UK that immigrants with the same background will form a community, live together, marry together, keep all their cultural differences, and not integrate into local society

It depends how long immigrants are in their new country. The first generation of immigrants will retain almost all of the customs from their home country and adopt very few from their new country. The next generation, would in most cases be born as citizens of the new country, go to school in the new country and learn the language of the new country. Assimilation is not a fast process, but it does happen. With that said, I can see why it's harder for European countries to deal with immigration, as they tend to have much more homogeneous populations than the US.
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:09 pm

Hundreds of migrants feared drowned off Libya

Hundreds of migrants attempting the perilous journey across the Mediterranean are feared to have drowned after their overcrowded fishing boat capsized off Libya today, Italy's coast guard said this afternoon.

The boat ran into difficulty 15 nautical miles off Libya and sent out a distress call, picked up by the coastguard in Catania in Sicily.

The Navy’s LÉ Niamh and the Médecins Sans Frontières ship Dignity were immediately dispatched to the scene, but the boat capsized after the migrants all rushed to one side in anticipation of being rescued, the coast guard said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0805/719340-migrants/
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 67):
Hundreds of migrants feared drowned off Libya

sorry to sound flippant but shit happens. The ones rescued should be transported back to where their voyage started.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 68):
sorry to sound flippant but shit happens.

Does that same logic apply to other events such as MH 370, MH 17 or 4U 9525 where many people lost their lives? I'd be interested to hear what you think, but the reaction from most everybody else would suggest that measures must be taken to insure hundreds of people don't die. I know the risk assumed boarding a commercial flight and boarding a rusty boat are not the same, but we are talking about other human beings here.
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PanHAM
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:15 am

The passengers on the flights quoted could assume that they entrusted their lives to reliable companies, bringing them safely to their destinations. Hostile action and assumed mass murder are such rare occasions in aviation that no one on these flights had to take this into account. Nor could the companies operating these flights foresee what was going to happen.

Comparing this to the trafficking of illegal immigrants, a business completely in the hands of criminals, aided by European governments in the name of humanity, is a completely different case. Whoever enters such vessels must know about the perils and should use some basic knowledge, such as staying put when the rescue vessel arrives on the Scene in order to prevent capsizing. Logic, if applied, tells people not to go on such flimsy vessels in first place. Logic, if applied, tells people who migrate for economic reasons, rather to apply their skills to better the situationj in their home countries. There is no logic oin this Lemming race.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:23 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 69):

Does that same logic apply to other events such as MH 370, MH 17 or 4U 9525 where many people lost their lives?

These events are not comparable to illegals in leaky boats.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 69):
I know the risk assumed boarding a commercial flight and boarding a rusty boat are not the same, but we are talking about other human beings here.

Not all human beings are equal, not all human beings matter, not all human beings deserve to sneak into another country illegally. Once you get you head around that then the solution is pretty simple, turn back the boats and return them to North Africa.

Another solution is to find all the old crappy boats likely to be used for people smuggling buy them and destroy them. If you can't purchase them send in special forces to blow them up Another solution is to hunt down the smugglers and kill them.

No boats, dead smugglers, problem somewhat resolved.
 
offloaded
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:17 am

So, back to the do we need them or don't we issue:

"We need immigrants because Europe's population is aging and "natives" aren't having enough kids."

"Immigrants are only coming for the benefits such as free housing and handouts."

"We have a skill shortage, (possibly due to paying too many of our own people money to sit home and watch Jeremy Kyle), so need immigrants."

"Immigrants don't assimilate and end up creating their own ghettos."
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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moo
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:25 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"We need immigrants because Europe's population is aging and "natives" aren't having enough kids."

This can be solved through the use of legal immigrants.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"Immigrants are only coming for the benefits such as free housing and handouts."

Legal immigrants can be issued with work visa's, so no problems with benefits and housing.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"We have a skill shortage, (possibly due to paying too many of our own people money to sit home and watch Jeremy Kyle), so need immigrants."

Again, can be solved with legal immigrants and work visa's.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"Immigrants don't assimilate and end up creating their own ghettos."

You see this behaviour more frequently in asylum seekers and illegal immigrants rather than legal immigrants.

And the UK does allow legal immigration.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):

"We need immigrants because Europe's population is aging and "natives" aren't having enough kids."

Fair call but people who can't read, write, speak the language or use a toilet are not the answer.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"Immigrants are only coming for the benefits such as free housing and handouts."

Since the lot currently trying to come from Africa have not usable skills can you think of any other reason why they are coming?

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"We have a skill shortage, (possibly due to paying too many of our own people money to sit home and watch Jeremy Kyle), so need immigrants."

Lots of disenfranchised people in the US struggling under the yoke of right wing idiocy are surely prime targets to fill the skills shortage in Europe, as well as plenty of highly skilled people from India and China who would love to move to Europe.

And yes getting our own lazy a holes working would be a huge benefit.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 72):
"Immigrants don't assimilate and end up creating their own ghettos."

Which for a lot of immigrant groups is true.
 
offloaded
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 74):
Lots of disenfranchised people in the US struggling under the yoke of right wing idiocy are surely prime targets to fill the skills shortage in Europe, as well as plenty of highly skilled people from India and China who would love to move to Europe.
Quoting moo (Reply 73):
And the UK does allow legal immigration.

Right, but this is when it starts to go wrong. Since 2004, something like 800,000 East Europeans moved to the UK under EU freedom of movement rules. Those numbers include everyone from plumbers to engineers to labourers. But, because the numbers are so large, the government has in some ways had it's arm twisted to close the doors on everybody else who falls on the wrong side of the quota system, including skilled people needed.

Immigration caps for skilled workers harm economy, say business leaders
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 71):
Not all human beings are equal, not all human beings matter

Okay, good to see you show your true colors on this one.   

I'm sorry, but as an American, I can't condone such beliefs. My country has some serious problems that need to be sorted out, you can make fun of us all you want and I'm fine with that, but I am damn proud it says in my nation's Constitution “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” I'm sorry, but money and a western education don't make you a better person.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 71):
These events are not comparable to illegals in leaky boats.

I stated as much myself in the post you quoted, so you're not telling me anything new here.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 74):
Lots of disenfranchised people in the US struggling under the yoke of right wing idiocy are surely prime targets to fill the skills shortage in Europe

Haha, good luck with that.   

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 74):
Fair call but people who can't read, write, speak the language or use a toilet are not the answer.

Doesn't mean they can't learn. Mexican and Central American immigrants to the U.S. learn enough English to get by pretty quickly. My hometown of Buffalo has a not insignificant Somali population. They are integrating into American society. Immigrants tend to be people who are willing to do most anything to make a better life for themselves. They are willing to leave behind family and friends to make a better life for themselves. Give them the benefit of the doubt that they can learn. I cannot understand why the one thing Europeans tend to have such retrograde beliefs on is immigration. Maybe it's that many hate to see the demographics of their mostly white nations change. If you have a different reason, please let me know.
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victrola
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 45):
However, Germany also has huge issues - of a luxury sort- Unemployment is at record lows, try findning a german to look after your 88 year old mum as a Carer (Pflegedienste) and you will not. Population is decreasing at astonishing rates due to a lack of births - who ´s gonna pay my Pension if I stick around here? Every well educated Syrian, Iraqi etc should (and is - at least by EU Standards) being embraced with open arms here - rightly so

A most interesting point. Europe has a serious demographics problem. The population is getting older by the day and pension systems are already under strain. Birth rates have sunk to well below replacement levels in just about every European country. The present system is unsustainable unless these countries somehow come up with more young workers to pay into the pension programs. I say to all Europeans who are against more immigration, who is going to pay your pension when you get old?

Unfortunately Europe has a problem of assimilation. Immigrant countries like the United States, Canada, Australia, and others have an advantage. I'm guessing, but I would say that about 90% of the people in these countries have grandparents born overseas. However after 2 generations nobody thinks of themselves as anything other than American, Canadian, or Australian. I'm not sure if Europeans could ever start to think like that. Ethnicity and nationality just seem to be too strongly entwined in Europe.

I'm not sure how this will play out in the future. But something will have to give.
 
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moo
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 77):
I say to all Europeans who are against more immigration, who is going to pay your pension when you get old?

I am - I have a private pension into which I pay. I expect nothing back from the state by the time I retire in 40 years, and neither do any of my peers.

Quoting victrola (Reply 77):
However after 2 generations nobody thinks of themselves as anything other than American, Canadian, or Australian.

The number of Americans I hear calling themselves "Italian", "Irish", "German" etc I am not believing that statement...
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 76):
My hometown of Buffalo has a not insignificant Somali population. They are integrating into American society. Immigrants tend to be people who are willing to do most anything to make a better life for themselves.

Interesting, here in Finland Somalis are the largest Muslim immigrant group. Their unemployment rate is somewhere around 70% and crime rate is many, many times higher than that of the native population and many other immigrant groups. I wonder if our generous welfare system has something to do with this... In particular when it comes to sexual crimes committed by a stranger here in Finland it's just insane how many times the offender is an immigrant of African / Middle Eastern origin. I suppose when immigrants from very different societies fail to integrate they won't really adopt western views on women's rights either.

Quoting victrola (Reply 77):
The present system is unsustainable unless these countries somehow come up with more young workers to pay into the pension programs

Due to automation and many labour heavy jobs moving to countries with cheaper labour costs there won't be jobs for anywhere near as many people as there are now. Here in Finland in early and mid 2000's there was scaremongering about serious lack of workforce that would hit the country by 2010 when those born after the war started to retire. Guess what, nothing of that sort has happened, unemployment has only gone up.

Quoting victrola (Reply 77):
I say to all Europeans who are against more immigration, who is going to pay your pension when you get old?

Certainly not those unemployed, poorly educated and barely assimilated immigrants and their children who based on current trends probably won't be much better assimilated than their parents.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
Interesting, here in Finland Somalis are the largest Muslim immigrant group. Their unemployment rate is somewhere around 70%

While still high, all sources I found put it somewhere around 50%. For comparison, 28% of Russians in Finland are unemployed.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
crime rate is many, many times higher than that of the native population and many other immigrant groups.

May I direct you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_community_in_Finland

It states in part:

Quote:
Like other immigrant groups in Finland, particularly Muslims, Somalis have been targets of hate crimes. According to a 2009 report by the Police College of Finland, 8% of total victims were Somali-born, while representing only 4% of suspected offenders. Most suspected perpetrators are young Finnish men.

Just a thought, but maybe if immigrants were treated better upon arrival, they would have an easier time assimilating.   
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 75):

Right, but this is when it starts to go wrong. Since 2004, something like 800,000 East Europeans moved to the UK under EU freedom of movement rules. Those numbers include everyone from plumbers to engineers to labourers. But, because the numbers are so large, the government has in some ways had it's arm twisted to close the doors on everybody else who falls on the wrong side of the quota system, including skilled people needed.

Norway was also flooded with Eastern Europeans, the builders I've had in my house this week are Polish, they do the jobs Norwegians no longer want to do, which isn't very good for Norways long term future, since many of the Norwegians who should be trades people and the like simply don't work.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 76):
Okay, good to see you show your true colors on this one.

I've never hid my colours, not all people are equal, no matter what it's states on a piece of paper the reality is just that. My life and your life in dollars terms are worth significantly more than the life of an illegal immigrant from sub Saharan Africa, they shouldn't be but they are.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 76):
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

So long as you're white then that statement is completely true, it you're something else it's only words on paper.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 76):
Doesn't mean they can't learn. Mexican and Central American immigrants to the U.S. learn enough English to get by pretty quickly.

And why should we spend the time and money on them to get them to the point where they are able to make a contribution, when it's much easier to target educated skilled immigrants from developed countries.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 76):
Immigrants tend to be people who are willing to do most anything to make a better life for themselves.

The US is a completely different situation, using your Somalis as an example, yours are legal immigrants, not illegals like Europe gets, yours have to work because the US has no social services to offer them, they can't not work and live off govt handouts like they can in Europe. You can't compare what happens in the US to what is happening in Europe.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 81):
My life and your life in dollars terms are worth significantly more than the life of an illegal immigrant from sub Saharan Africa, they shouldn't be but they are.

That doesn't mean people who are worth less in monetary terms deserve to be treated differently. How much money you are worth should not correspond to how you are treated.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 81):
they shouldn't be but they are.

Nobody's forcing you to perpetuate the unequal way people are treated.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 81):
And why should we spend the time and money on them to get them to the point where they are able to make a contribution, when it's much easier to target educated skilled immigrants from developed countries.

Because educated and skilled workers are usually not the ones to emigrate from their home countries. Furthermore, immigrants are usually willing to work for a lot less than natives or more educated immigrants, offsetting the higher costs of educating them. Furthermore, in many nations, the children of immigrants are born citizens of that country or have a relatively easy path to citizenship. At that point, it is the state's obligation to provide an education for them.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 81):
So long as you're white then that statement is completely true, it you're something else it's only words on paper.

We may yet have to make the aforementioned words of the Constitution a reality for all Americans, but at least we have something we're aiming towards. Immigration and the recognition of minorities, however backwards we are, is possibly the only area the U.S. is more progressive than Europe.
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victrola
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
Due to automation and many labour heavy jobs moving to countries with cheaper labour costs there won't be jobs for anywhere near as many people as there are now.


This is a fallacy that automation and jobs moving to other countries lead to a net loss of jobs in a country. People seen to think there is a fixed number of jobs in a country and that adding population to a country will increase unemployment. In the last 40 years the United States has added over 100 million people and automation has grown exponentially, and millions of jobs have been offshored. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics the U.S. had a work force of 93 million workers in 1975 and an unemployment rate of 8.5%. In 2014 with a work force of over 157 million, we had an unemployment rate of 6.2%.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 83):
This is a fallacy that automation and jobs moving to other countries lead to a net loss of jobs in a country. People seen to think there is a fixed number of jobs in a country and that adding population to a country will increase unemployment.

  

Could not have said it better. More people = more jobs. If you have country x with a million people, and the population grows to 1.5 million, country x needs more infrastructure, more goods and more services to be able to handle 500k more people. To build this infrastructure, to manufacture these goods and to provide these services, more people are needed than are currently in the workforce. Therefore the workforce increases in number.
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 80):
While still high, all sources I found put it somewhere around 50%. For comparison, 28% of Russians in Finland are unemployed.

27% employment rate is the number I once heard, perhaps it has improved over the time.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 80):
Just a thought, but maybe if immigrants were treated better upon arrival, they would have an easier time assimilating.   

I think they were and are still treated pretty good, in my opinion most of the tension between them and the native population is a direct result of the issues with crime among Somali community. I think no matter what we do it's pretty difficult to integrate people who come from a broken country like Somalia with very different cultural and religious traditions, and often little to no education whatsoever. Our generous welfare system that really doesn't encourage people to take low paying jobs doesn't help either. The rather marginal amount of actual racism some of these people may face is probably by far the smallest of all the issues that negatively affect their integration.

Quoting victrola (Reply 83):

We really can't compete with likes of China in traditional manufacturing industry and other such areas that offer a lot of jobs for people with low level of education. Our public sector can't take infinite amounts of nurses either. What we need are highly educated, skilled individuals for growing innovative high tech businesses. But guess what, most of them rather choose another country with lower taxation (even if it means privatized healthcare and education), obviously our welfare system has little to offer to their kind. Language is probably another factor, Finnish is notoriously difficult to learn.

Thus, while the US receives a lot of highly educated and very motivated immigrants we mostly receive those who with little education, exactly what we don't need.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 84):
If you have country x with a million people, and the population grows to 1.5 million, country x needs more infrastructure, more goods and more services to be able to handle 500k more people.

Or as a refugee you might come to Finland and get much better material quality of life than you ever had in your home without doing anything at all, the government gives you free money. Or you may choose to learn the language, study for a couple of years and do some low paying job to receive couple of hundred more euros a month.

Probably what this country would really need is more entrepreneurship, but that doesn't happen simply by adding more uneducated workforce on top of the currently unemployed population.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 85):
in my opinion most of the tension between them and the native population is a direct result of the issues with crime among Somali community.

If you read what I cited earlier, there is more violence against Somali immigrants than they commit against other people. So to put it bluntly, your opinion is factually incorrect.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 85):
Or as a refugee you might come to Finland and get much better material quality of life than you ever had in your home without doing anything at all, the government gives you free money.

That's not the immigrants' problem. Give them an incentive to find a job. I can't help but use a platitude here, but as it goes "you can give a man fish and feed him for a day, or you can teach him how to fish and feed him for his lifetime." I'll admit I am not knowledgable on Finland's legislative process, but it can't be that hard to change the laws in Finland so as to incentivize gainful employment among immigrants by making it some sort of requisite to receive entitlements.
Look, I realize immigration is not an easy issue to deal with. I realize it is even harder for European countries with homogeneous populations to deal with. However, we cannot simply stand pat and say "not my problem." With globalization, it most certainly is something we all must deal with. Furthermore, I would argue that the nations that best handle immigration over the next two to three decades will also be the most successful.
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 86):

Based on statistics and my understanding of the situation in this country I would say that Somali criminals commit way more crimes towards natives than the other way around. Neo Nazism and violent racism are very marginal problems here
compared to the issues with crime and religious radicalization in refugee communities.

Changing the laws is quite difficult when the lefties dismiss any criticism of their do gooder policies as racist. In Sweden the situation is 10x worse. Those people do not care about integration, they simply want to take in as many refugees as possible to make Finland "multicultural", whatever that means to them.

Current mass humanitarian immigration to Europe will end up as a disaster when the integration continues to fail.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
helhem
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:53 pm

The optimism of people from the other side of the world is bizarre.

The basic problem is a certain proportion of the population consumes more resources than they will ever pay into the system. This system is getting unsustainable even without any immigrants at all. This is because of increased competition from near and far. Work for low or entirely unskilled people is getting harder and harder to find. Most of the people we are talking about fall into this category. Does one use more resources than one has contributed if one spends ones entire career working a minimum wage job? The premise that everyone should in theory have access to at least basic sustenance , education and healthcare is going away. And this promise was never ever really held in practice to begin with. Something has to give and people know it. Adding in too many wrong kind of people makes the adjustment harder. Even with a language no one in the world speaks we should try to attract skilled migrants. These mythical job creators. One has to do everything to try offset these problems. Certainly geek entrepreneurs don't flock to California because of the low cost base and low taxes... Maybe it is the weather?

The current work requirement is a joke. Making peoples life miserable is always easier than actually doing something useful. And directly cheaper too. Or they force people into education they dont want or need. Stick and carrot. The stick is working badly. Forced labour is always difficult. Some people are already doing something for a symbolical wage just to do something. If one could do bigger top down projects here it could make a bigger difference. I would even support new deal type schemes that have only been used in the decades immediately after the second world war. Maybe they did something right at the time. At this point I am open to anything

If people only cared about the sustainability of the healthcare and pension system one would stop all humanitarian immigration and only take in educated , skilled young people. Or otherwise use migrant workers on short term contracts and literally bus people out of the country as soon as their contracts end. Many countries do things like this with their points systems or migrant labour schemes but this has nothing to do with humanitarian immigration at all.
 
ual777
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 81):
So long as you're white then that statement is completely true, it you're something else it's only words on paper.


How so?
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 82):
We may yet have to make the aforementioned words of the Constitution a reality for all Americans, but at least we have something we're aiming towards. Immigration and the recognition of minorities, however backwards we are, is possibly the only area the U.S. is more progressive than Europe.

I think you'll find most countries in Europe have something similar in there constitutions.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 89):
How so?

Don't be silly you know white people are treated better in the US then non white people, your justice system is proof of that.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting helhem (Reply 88):
The optimism of people from the other side of the world is bizarre.

How is optimism bizarre? I could sit around, bitching and moaning about how "immigrants are screwin' up our economy, takin' all the jobs, stealing entitlements and raping and murdering white people" but in the end that doesn't solve any problems, it makes them worse. Trying to send immigrants back to where they came from is not going to work either, and a bunch of racist rhetoric isn't going to help anything. We cannot sit around complaining about immigration and immigrants and expect the issue to just disappear or solve itself. There is no silver bullet on the issue of immigration, but I firmly believe that solutions do exist.

Quoting helhem (Reply 88):
The premise that everyone should in theory have access to at least basic sustenance , education and healthcare is going away.

Part of the reason behind this is that the native populations of most developed countries are getting older. Immigrants, both skilled and unskilled can help solve this problem.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 90):
Don't be silly you know white people are treated better in the US then non white people, your justice system is proof of that.

Still better than minorities are treated in most of Europe.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 91):
Still better than minorities are treated in most of Europe.

And you get this information from Fox maybe, or did you just pull it from the air.
 
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moo
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 91):
Still better than minorities are treated in most of Europe.

How many minorities are seemingly routinely shot by police here in Europe?
 
helhem
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:08 pm

The whole idea behind that theory assumes just taking in people like that creates a net economic benefit. At the moment the opposite is true. I doubt it will be possible if one would consider only humanitarian immigration which is still only relatively small number of people due to the recent change of more people coming in than leaving . The fix to this issue is to be more selective in who we take in . But the main points have nothing to do with any immigrants at all but to overhaul the social system and get the economy growing which it has not done in a decade. Things like youth mass unemployment are a problem.

The friction between some people of the native population and recent immigrants are unfortunate. But taking in more needy people when times are getting harder and harder . It is no surprise this is happening. Overall I don't think this situation is not even remotely bad and used by different people with various different ideologies they want to sell. The mostly eastern european workers are also not welcomed with fully open arms by everyone. This group is far far bigger than any of the humanitarian immigrants including their second and third generation descendants. A common complaint is them taking peoples jobs and then locals end up on the dole etc. For Europe as a whole this might be beneficial but the costs are local. Wasn't David Cameron of Britain hinting at something like this at some point. The effect of his promised Uk eu referendum is interesting. If they close doors for eu migrants in some way I am sure many different countries would quickly follow suit. Further eu enlargement has also stalled for the time being.

I don't have any first hand experience of the Us but every single us news article dealing with illegal immigration has much more vitriolic comments than I am used to here locally. That while they can offer these people a more functioning world class economy and better chances for jobs. Just blankly stating minorities are treated better in the Us is a blanket statement and on what is this assumption based. Not everyone belonging to any sort of minority is poor either.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 91):
Part of the reason behind this is that the native populations of most developed countries are getting older. Immigrants, both skilled and unskilled can help solve this problem.

If we don't get enough skilled immigrants with interest in entrepreneurship there really won't be all that many jobs for those unskilled ones either.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 91):
Still better than minorities are treated in most of Europe.

Minorities in this country have access to free university level education, top quality healthcare and the same social security as everybody else. Everybody in this country is treated better than those in the US, except the rich who have to pay way more taxes.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting helhem (Reply 94):
every single us news article dealing with illegal immigration has much more vitriolic comments than I am used to here locally.

The problem in the U.S. is a small, vocal minority who spew racist vitriol. The people who shout loudest are the ones you hear all about. I hear a lot about these kind of people in Europe even though I'm sure they are a relatively small minority:
http://europe.newsweek.com/neo-nazi-activity-rise-europe-316465

Quoting helhem (Reply 94):
Just blankly stating minorities are treated better in the Us is a blanket statement and on what is this assumption based.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 92):
And you get this information from Fox maybe, or did you just pull it from the air.

What I should have stated is that in my experience, most people in the U.S. are not as openly racist as many Europeans. That is my experience, so it is not necessarily indicative of anything beyond the people I have encountered in my life, so I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have made such a broad statement based off my personal experiences.

And for the record, I don't get my information from Fox "News." If you realize, my views have nothing in common with the right wing propaganda Fox spews.
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pvjin
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RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 96):
The problem in the U.S. is a small, vocal minority who spew racist vitriol. The people who shout loudest are the ones you hear all about. I hear a lot about these kind of people in Europe even though I'm sure they are a relatively small minority:
http://europe.newsweek.com/neo-nazi-activity-rise-europe-316465

You really should take anything you hear about Sweden and immigration in mainstream media with a grain of salt. The country is ruled by radical leftists who label any criticism on their ultra liberal immigration policy as racist. After Swedish democrats (who in reality are about as far-right as democrats in the US) gained popularity other parties went so far that they even made a deal between the opposition and the government parties to ensure that SD won't gain any political power. Is it really such a surprise that extremist ideologies like Neo Nazism might gain popularity when the political system totally ignores people's legitimate concerns on immigration policy? Sweden is hardly a democracy at all nowadays.

To put it simply, in Sweden an average American with rational views on immigration would be labeled as a racist, fascist neo nazi. If you are actually interested in this topic I recommend watching some videos from this guy, he's a Swedish immigrant who makes videos about the madness that's going on in Sweden.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8kf0zcrJkz7muZg2C_J-XQ

Word racism and all its variations must be among the most abused words in modern Europe. They are used to vilify and suppress anyone who openly dares to criticize our current disastrous multiculturalist immigration policies.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
rugger
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:03 pm

RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:51 pm

Pardon me, is this the thread where the racists hang out?
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Calais Migrant Crisis

Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting Rugger (Reply 98):
Pardon me, is this the thread where the racists hang out?

I don't think so, unless having proper border control and placing one's own home country's benefit on top in the priority list is considered racist nowadays.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr

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