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mt99
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Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:31 pm

Step into my office, baby
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Why is this woman not in prison?

Prison? No, I think that is a bit harsh. I think she has to be relieved from her duties as she is not capable of performing the duties required by her job. She can keep a pencil pusher job elsewhere, but she should not be a deputy clerk anymore as she is unable to facilitate marriages based on her religious beliefs.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/44320...ge-licenses-kentucky-clerks-office
"
She says: "Following the death of my godly mother-in-law over four years ago, I went to church to fulfill her dying wish. There I heard a message of grace and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ."

She also says that "to issue a marriage license which conflicts with God's definition of marriage, with my name affixed to the certificate, would violate my conscience."

She calls her decision one of obedience to God and says she won't resign.
"
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Prison? No, I think that is a bit harsh.

Contempt of court's an offense that can lead to imprisonment. I'd be happy to see her wearing a jumpsuit behind some iron bars.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 2):
Contempt of court's an offense that can lead to imprisonment. I'd be happy to see her wearing a jumpsuit behind some iron bars.

Her job's requirements changed under he watch, and I think the state still owes her the accommodation of repositioning her where her "beliefs" will not be challenged by performing her job.

I can understand the contempt charge, but we made it to this point by the state of Kentucky not adequately addressing the issues in play here. North Carolina just went through and changed the law so that "Conscientious Dissenters" in the courts can recuse themselves and use another state employee from nearby for Civil Marriage proceedings which go against their beliefs and still maintain their jobs.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
but we made it to this point by the state of Kentucky not adequately addressing the issues in play here.

Nope, the state of Kentucky MORE than adequately addressed the issues at play here. Same-sex marriage is legal. Your job is to issue marriage licenses. Do. Your. Job. I much prefer that to the abomination of a law that was passed here in NC where some bigot magistrate can declare their religious beliefs against my ability to get married and I'm SOL. I'm sure that's fine and dandy here in, say, the Triangle, but if you're in the far reaches of the state, Murphy, for instance, or way the heck out in the Outer Banks, suddenly something as simple as getting married - a civil right - has some distinct impediments. Make no bones about it, if NC's "Legalized Bigotry" law makes it to the Supremes, it'll be struck down. We didn't accommodate the bigots in the '60s who had sincerely held religious beliefs against marriages like mine - we shouldn't accommodate the bigots of the '00s who choose to are cowardly enough to hide behind their faith. Davis needs a few night in the US Marshall's lock-up and some rather severe fines. Oh yeah, and to be impeached from her position.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
csavel
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:20 pm

She is an agent of the state and she is paid by *all* the state's taxpayers, including the two men who want a marriage license and are in a sense her employers. No, this is not about religious liberty.

Plus how far do you want to take it.

Orthodox Jewish court clerk refuses to grant a license to a divorced woman she knows to be Jewish unless she produces a get? (Jewish divorce decree)

Devout Catholic court clerk refuses to grant a license to someone who is divorced?

And why should court clerks be the only people on the people's payroll to have this so-called exemption?

Buddhists vegetarian cafeteria worker refuses to serve meat in the school cafeteria.

Scientologist doctor at the VA refuses to refer a veteran with PTSD to a psychiatrist because of his anti-psychiatry beliefs (What, scientology isn't a religion but a cult. Well, who is to say what is and isn't a religion? Certainly the govt)

Cop converts to rastafarianism and refuses to arrest anyone for marijuana possession. (Holy ganja)
I'm actually OK with that one  

[Edited 2015-09-01 11:21:07]
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LAX772LR
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Prison? No, I think that is a bit harsh

Huh? The penalty for being in contempt of court is heavy fines or prison. What's "harsh" about that?


Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
and I think the state still owes her the accommodation of repositioning her where her "beliefs" will not be challenged by performing her job.

Why?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
but we made it to this point by the state of Kentucky not adequately addressing the issues in play here.

Except there's nothing to address: as an official for the state it is your job to carry out your duties and uphold the laws of the state. The law banning same sex couples from marrying was struck down. If your religious beliefs do not allow you to proceed, then step down and allow someone else to do the job for you.

Imagine if we had a military full of conscientious objectors.

Besides, the only body capable of addressing this issue is the Kentucky legislature and with an election pending for this year, neither side will attempt to alter the status quo. For now, the only thing that could happen is for a federal judge to fine her and imprison her. Next year, the KY House may initiate impeachment, but with the KY Senate under Republican control, don't expect the process to go far.

What bothers everyone is the fact that she invokes religious beliefs...well, all Christians believe that marriage is a sacred institution and that divorce should not happen. This woman has divorced more than once...talk about hypocrisy at its finest.

I'm gonna get a job at McDonalds and refuse to serve people I deem fat...gluttony is a sin and my "religious beliefs" will not permit me to serve them.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 2):
I'd be happy to see her wearing a jumpsuit behind some iron bars.

The tolerant liberal speaks! Don't tow the line => go to jail.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Prison? No, I think that is a bit harsh. I think she has to be relieved from her duties as she is not capable of performing the duties required by her job.

I can agree with that. Although I think gay marriage is a stupid idea, she cannot make policy in her position, and would need to be put someplace else.

Quote:
The Free Exercise Clause not only protects religious belief and expression; it also seems to allow for violation of laws, as long as that violation is made for religious reasons.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Don't tow the line

Toe, not tow. You should know better than that. And I'm very tolerant, except of intolerance.

[Edited 2015-09-01 12:05:29]
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
Nope, the state of Kentucky MORE than adequately addressed the issues at play here.

No they haven't. they hired a person that was capable of upholding the laws of Kentucky prior to a major change in law, and they haven't adequately set a process that relieves that person from performing their duties under the new laws that affect their "beleifs". The job description changed, and the state of Kentucky holds the responsibility of relieving this person from their job or the "tragedy" of having their name on this document.

Going forward, new appointees should not be allowed to hold the positions with such beliefs, but that is going forward.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 6):
Huh? The penalty for being in contempt of court is heavy fines or prison. What's "harsh" about that?

Nothing, but the clerk was hired to a position that now has different affects on her supposed religions beliefs. The state of Kentucky needs to address this change though any of multiple avenues that prevent here from infringing on the rights of the citizens to get married. A prison sentence is a pathetic choice of punishment for something the state of Kentucky has failed to do.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 6):
Why?

The laws changed. She should be allowed to serve where her rights are not infringed. perhaps as a sanitation engineer in the office or in another position where she doesn't have to feel conflicted about performing her job. If she chooses not to take a change in capacity or function, then she should be released.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
they hired a person

She wasn't hired. She was elected. As a public official her duty is to uphold the Constitution and provide services to her constituents.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):

I'm gonna get a job at McDonalds and refuse to serve people I deem fat...gluttony is a sin and my "religious beliefs" will not permit me to serve them.

Your manager will take care of your problem by relegating you to salad creation or table sanitizing.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 11):
She wasn't hired. She was elected. As a public official her duty is to uphold the Constitution and provide services to her constituents.

Like I said, the state of Kentucky has the power to make accommodations
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Acheron
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:42 pm

Someone should teach her about the separation of church and state. If she can't kept them separated, she has to step down.
 
Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
I think she has to be relieved from her duties as she is not capable of performing the duties required by her job.

I don't believe she can easily be relieved from her position as it is an elected position. The Federal Judge, however, can create a legal environment where she will either resign or start issuing licenses to gay couples.

That can be a fine that is significant enough to get her attention, with automatic increases, and it can also include jail time that keeps her out of the office - which, hopefully wold allow someone else in the office to issue the licenses.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
Her job's requirements changed under he watch

She would have known that the USSC decision could have resulted in today's situation, but she ran for the office anyway.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 11):
She wasn't hired. She was elected. As a public official her duty is to uphold the Constitution and provide services to her constituents.

That is the main issue in this situation. The judge cannot fire her, but he can ensure that she does not benefit financially through her salary and that needs to be done with fines - especially if she can order the county to deduct fines from her paycheck. If she gets a $1 paycheck for a few weeks she might see the light - again.

If this drags on then I do believe that she needs to spend some time in prison for contempt of court.

Hopefully the lawyers discussing the situation with the judge will resolve the issue. Lawyers are VERY respectful of Federal Judges and this gal's attorney may well deliver a Come To Jesus lecture to her after the meeting.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
Going forward, new appointees should not be allowed to hold the positions with such beliefs, but that is going forward.

Difficult to do in a country where the concept of not having religious tests for elected office is long-standing.
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Difficult to do in a country where the concept of not having religious tests for elected office is long-standing.

And part of that is the expectation that their religious beliefs will not stand in the way of them doing their job. If they can't do it then they need to allow someone else to fulfill that job/obligation. I don't think everybody should be required to do things they find objectionable but they then need to be responsible adults and make way for someone who can.

It is pretty simple to be reasonable and in this case I do not believe this woman is being reasonable. Do you think her actions are reasonable? Especially for a state official?

Tugg
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Prison? No, I think that is a bit harsh.

It's perfectly appropriate at this point. Contempt of court is a crime.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
Her job's requirements changed under he watch, and I think the state still owes her the accommodation of repositioning her where her "beliefs" will not be challenged by performing her job.

She refuses to resign. That's all on her, not the state.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
he tolerant liberal speaks! Don't tow the line => go to jail.

So we should ignore people who break the law just because they invoke Jesus while they're doing it? This isn't about her beliefs. This is about her refusing to do her job, the one that the citizens of Kentucky pay her to do, despite a number of court orders to the contrary. She had her day with the appeals process as is her right, but that's run out now that the Supreme Court has rejected her appeal, and now she needs to either do her job or resign and let someone else do it. Otherwise she is breaking the law, and generally there are punishments associated with that. Not to mention the taxpayer money she is wasting and the embarrassment she is bringing to her employer. No manager would stand for that from one of their employees, and there's no reason Kentucky should either now that she's willfully breaking the law in defiance of the courts.

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 17):
It is pretty simple to be reasonable and in this case I do not believe this woman is being reasonable. Do you think her actions are reasonable? Especially for a state official?

Insofar that her religion is of the more evangelical sort - which I have little use or regard for, no. But her interpretation of the state's policy (not law - KY has not passed any law recognizing gay marriage) and how she chooses to follow them, I think she is within her rights. And you can't just throw her out - the people elected her as a package, including her background and beliefs. Unless you can prove that she is refusing to follow the law (as passed by the KY legislature), you'll have a hard time forcing her out.

I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
that imitate law, while not actually being a law.

But she is doing the same if not worse. She is acting under "God's law" according to her, so she is breaking her oath to "uphold the law" which are based on the Constitution and the powers that flow from it. Not God. I have said it before, we are not a nation "under God", we are a nation under people. I have yet to see God pass a single law in the USA.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Difficult to do in a country where the concept of not having religious tests for elected office is long-standing.

The religious test is not so much what I was after, as at the end of the day the citizens want the elected officials to do the job they were elected to do. If they aren't going to sign marriage licenses, then I think this creates more of a burden on the citizens than otherwise. The Kentucky constitution that she swore uphold is still in effect. With certain parts ruled unconstitutional. The Kentucky legislature can create new rules that remove from her the need to sign a document with her name by changing signing procedures and a host of other items.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
It's perfectly appropriate at this point. Contempt of court is a crime.

So can we bill you for the incarceration? There are other avenues for a solution at this point.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
She refuses to resign. That's all on her, not the state.

No the state has options. North Carolina has proved that even though others may disagree with the methodology.
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bhill
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:30 pm

Keep in mind, she may be able to be charged with perjury. Pretty sure she had to swear an oath when she won the election, and part of that oath was to uphold the law....which she is breaking. And if she knowingly took that oath with no intention of abiding by it because of her religion....perhaps impeachment is in order.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):
So can we bill you for the incarceration?

I'm not in Kentucky, so no. But if it were my state, of course they could. They could also fine her heavily, but since she'd probably refuse to pay that, eventually the prison system would eventually come into it.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):
No the state has options.

The state really doesn't. The best thing that could be done is for her to be fired - the state is able to replace her quickly and easily and she can go about seeking other employment better aligned with her beliefs, and nobody has to be jailed or fined. But the law says they can't do that, so they're stuck with an employee who will not resign her position and yet refuses to do her job.

-Mir
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):

No the state has options. North Carolina has proved that even though others may disagree with the methodology.

Again, I'm quite sure that "methodology" will be stricken down the first time it's challenged in Federal court.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 22):
Keep in mind, she may be able to be charged with perjury. Pretty sure she had to swear an oath when she won the election, and part of that oath was to uphold the law....which she is breaking.

What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

Quoting Tugger (Reply 20):
But she is doing the same if not worse. She is acting under "God's law" according to her, so she is breaking her oath to "uphold the law" which are based on the Constitution and the powers that flow from it. Not God. I have said it before, we are not a nation "under God", we are a nation under people. I have yet to see God pass a single law in the USA.

You are forgetting the 1st Amendment.

[Edited 2015-09-01 12:40:04]
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
You are forgetting the 1st Amendment.

No I'm not. In fact she is.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That has nothing to do with her placing "God's Law" above the governing law that supposedly empowers her authority. SHE is establishing a religious test that she has decided others who come before must pass in order for her to do her job.

So with all due respect, no, I am not the one forgetting the First Amendment here.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

Just curious as to your reasoning. It appears to me you are asserting that a ruling by itself does not create a form of authority that must be followed/honored. I.e. if it is not a law passed by a legislature, even if a ruling has been made by a court, that one does not have to obey the ruling because it is not a "legislated law". Wouldn't that create a situation then where all states and legislatures would need to do is to simply NOT PASS a law and therefore they don't have to follow the ruling?

Tugg

[Edited 2015-09-01 13:15:00]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer

Which is probably a good thing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

The anti -gay marriage bill was never passed by the legislature, but a constitutional amendment passed by the voters.(Amendment 1 in 2004).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
You are forgetting the 1st Amendment.

The 1st Amendment doesn't apply here. Besides how many times has she been married (4) and she is also refusing to issue marriage licenses to straight couples, which doesn't violate her beliefs.

One more thought here, for those advocating prison, one has to commit a felony to go to the big house, the most she would get is some county jail time.

[Edited 2015-09-01 13:02:11]

[Edited 2015-09-01 13:02:58]
 
910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:08 pm

The Lexington Herald-Leader reported this morning that the federal judge in the case ordered Davis to “appear in his courtroom Thursday and explain why she should not be held in contempt of court.”

As a rule, judges tend not to like it when citizens ignore the law and deliberately defy court orders. It’s worth noting for context that U.S. District Judge David Bunning, appointed to the bench by George W. Bush, is presiding over the case.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...es-gods-authority?cid=sm_fb_maddow
 
Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.

There really isn't a problem with the system (though we have a long ling of politicians who have created unbelievable problems) as the Federal Judicial branch of our government has powers equal to the Executive or Legislative branches.

Right now this redneck gal is in the hands of the Federal Judicial and she doesn't have a chance of winning that one - the USSC has made that clear.

Courts, BTW, rule on their interpretation of the Constitution, laws passed by legislatures and case history. I don't find this a deficiency, especially when courts override abusive legislation. Look towards Civil Rights for cases that clearly demonstrate our need for the Judicial Branch.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):
So can we bill you for the incarceration?

Basic costs are fixed regardless if she goes to jail or not, Between around $1.50 to feed her for the day and 5¢ for toilet paper there is little in variable costs that the taxpayers will be burdened with.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
It's perfectly appropriate at this point. Contempt of court is a crime.

Contempt of a Federal Court is more serious than a District Court even though both can be very serious. Toss in Contempt of Court and this gal can be heading to serious (and expensive) legal issues.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

Try the Civil Rights of the couples who want to get married. Civil Rights charges will be sufficient to drain her retirement accounts to pay her legal bills with.
 
bhill
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

This one:

"30A.020 Oath of clerk and deputies.
Every clerk and deputy, in addition to the oath prescribed by Section 228 of the
Constitution, shall, before entering on the duties of his office, take the following oath in
presence of the Circuit Court: "I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the
duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my
skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees,
opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God." The fact that
the oath has been administered shall be entered on the record of the Circuit Court.
Effective:
January 2, 1978
History:
Created 1976 (1st Extra. Sess.) Ky. Acts ch. 21, sec. 2, effective January 2,
1978"

Notice the "WITHOUT FAVOR" ..........



And once she is found guilty of contempt or perjury, and recalled or confined:

"402.240 County judge/executive to issue license in absence of clerk.
In the absence of the county clerk, or during a vacancy in the office, the county
judge/executive may issue the license and, in so doing, he shall perform the duties and
incur all the responsibilities of the clerk. The county judge/executive shall return a
memorandum thereof to the clerk, and the memorandum shall be recorded as if the
license had been issued by the clerk.
Effective:
October 1, 1942
History:
Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky.
Stat. sec. 2113"
Carpe Pices
 
bhill
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:22 pm

This one as well....

"Kentucky Constitution
Section 5
Right of religious freedom.

No preference shall ever be given by law to any religious sect, society or denomination; nor to any particular creed, mode of worship or system of ecclesiastical polity; nor shall any person be compelled to attend any place of worship, to contribute to the erection or maintenance of any such place, or to the salary or support of any minister of religion; nor shall any man be compelled to send his child to any school to which he may be conscientiously opposed; and the civil rights, privileges or capacities of no person shall be taken away, or in anywise diminished or enlarged, on account of his belief or disbelief of any religious tenet, dogma or teaching. No human authority shall, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience.
Text as Ratified on: August 3, 1891, and revised September 28, 1891.
History: Not yet amended.


As Christianity is a "religious sect" that she prefers, over the rights of these citizens, she is breaking the law.
Carpe Pices
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 32):
As Christianity is a "religious sect" that she prefers, over the rights of these citizens, she is breaking the law.

Because she is a sworn representative of the State. She is not acting as an individual in her authority to issue marriage licenses. This is not about individual religious liberty and beliefs.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
ltbewr
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:42 pm

I bet there are things she has done in office that were political, done to satisfy rich and corporate interests, that could also be examined and used to remove her from Office. I bet she has to give significant contributions to the county and local Republican party to keep her job. She gets paid a very high salary for the region for her job, likely gold plated benefits as a PW, she got her job from her mom, and her son is a deputy. Sounds like she thinks she owns the job and she can get away with anything, sadly fellow Republicans and holy rollers support her anti-gay hate.

I wonder, correction I bet, she has a relative that were/are GLTBQ or a few 'close cousin' marriages. She is into allegedly her 4th marriage. I hate hypocrites like this fool. Meanwhile, I bet the local taxpayers would throw a fit over the $1000's a day in legal costs, extra police coverage due to her wrongheaded stand.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 6):
Huh? The penalty for being in contempt of court is heavy fines or prison. What's "harsh" about that?

Throwing someone in jail over not accomplishing her job is bigotry. If such a penalty applies in this case, then we have one more law to remove from the books.

She should be fired and that's the end of it. Resentfulness isn't legitimate grounds for punishing her like a criminal.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mt99
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):

She should be fired and that's the end of it

She cant. Its an elected position.

I think that she will be fined, then she will get a www,gofundme.com account, she will get a LOT of donations. Then she will quit for "health reasons" - and that will be the end of that.
Step into my office, baby
 
luv2fly
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:55 pm

Such a god fearing following person, she is currently on marriage number four......
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Throwing someone in jail over not accomplishing her job is bigotry. If such a penalty applies in this case, then we have one more law to remove from the books.

She should be fired and that's the end of it. Resentfulness isn't legitimate grounds for punishing her like a criminal.

Do you think people should not be jailed for violating court orders? There are cases where reporters refuse to divulge their source and are held in jail due to being in contempt of a court order. Do you think that should not be used as a tool of the court?

If not what option would you offer to replace it?


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.



Court rulings are absolutely law. If they weren't, there would be no reason for the courts to exist.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

Contempt of court.

Quoting 910A (Reply 28):
One more thought here, for those advocating prison, one has to commit a felony to go to the big house, the most she would get is some county jail time.

That's okay. I'm not saying she's a hardened criminal who needs to be segregated from society for our safety. But she is using her official capacity to deny people their rights in defiance of the courts, and that sort of thing shouldn't go without punishment.

Quoting bhill (Reply 31):
Notice the "WITHOUT FAVOR" ..........

You don't even have to get that far, just notice the "I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the
duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk". She's not well and truly discharging her duties.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AR385
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
No they haven't. they hired a person that was capable of upholding the laws of Kentucky prior to a major change in law, and they haven't adequately set a process that relieves that person from performing their duties under the new laws that affect their "beleifs". The job description changed, and the state of Kentucky holds the responsibility of relieving this person from their job or the "tragedy" of having their name on this document.

If I understand your reasoning correctly (and I may not) you are basing your argument on the "no retroactivity" principle of the law. At least it seems to me that is the case since you are saying that "the job description changed". It is a fact that that job description changed as a result of a change in the law.

Since she took the job, or applied, for it when there was another law, then her refusal to uphold the new law is an equivalence to the "no retroactivity principle". As the act of changing the law, changed her job. Thus the new law cannot be applied to her job, if she so chooses to ignore that new law.

It´s an interesting point, but It think it falls short because jobs, even those which descriptions depend directly on some law, are not LAW themselves. They may depend on certain laws but are not laws. So I don´t see why the principle of "no retroactivity" should apply to jobs. Even those that are directly derived from a law.

In any case, I don´t know how strong the "no retroactivity" principle is in Common Law. It is one of the hallmarks of the Napoleonic code, or Law. But even then, that principle does not apply to a job. Anyway, in my opinion, Common Law or Napoleonic Code, civil servants in a Secular State, may not refuse to do their jobs because of religious beliefs. it´s just wrong.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
The Federal Judge, however, can create a legal environment where she will either resign or start issuing licenses to gay couples.

But then wouldn´t that qualify as harassment?
 
Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
The Federal Judge, however, can create a legal environment where she will either resign or start issuing licenses to gay couples.

But then wouldn´t that qualify as harassment?

Is enforcement of the law harassment? And if it is, how would we ever enforce laws if those who break them say "well, I don't think I did anything wrong so leave me alone" when the justice system tries to penalize them?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
photopilot
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
I can understand the contempt charge, but we made it to this point by the state of Kentucky not adequately addressing the issues in play here. North Carolina just went through and changed the law so that "Conscientious Dissenters" in the courts can recuse themselves and use another state employee from nearby for Civil Marriage proceedings which go against their beliefs and still maintain their jobs.

A mature viewpoint of accommodation to various beliefs unlike the quote below who feels that forcing their beliefs on someone, prison and loss of employment are fitting. The my-way or the highway approach. NOT!!!

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
Davis needs a few night in the US Marshall's lock-up and some rather severe fines. Oh yeah, and to be impeached from her position.
 
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 42):

A mature viewpoint of accommodation to various beliefs unlike the quote below who feels that forcing their beliefs on someone, prison and loss of employment are fitting. The my-way or the highway approach. NOT!!!

She's free to privately believe whatever the heck she wants. She's not free to deny Constitutional rights to her constituents in the name of her specific interpretation of her faith. That's what the court has said and that's what she's in defiance of now.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Don't tow the line => go to jail.

1) that's "Toe" the line
2) it's not "toeing the line" it's "contempt of court!"

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
She should be allowed to serve where her rights are not infringed.

What right does she have that's being infringed? |

Freedom to deny others equal access to the protections to which they're entitled by law, due to your cherrypicking of ancient Jewish mythology.... is not a right.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
I don't believe she can easily be relieved from her position as it is an elected position.

Easily? No.
But she can be impeached, and subsequently dismissed. The process has already begone.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
You are forgetting the 1st Amendment.

Sorta like you seem to be forgetting that when you pit the 1st Amendment against the 14th....

...the 1st will lose, just about every time.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 28):
One more thought here, for those advocating prison, one has to commit a felony to go to the big house, the most she would get is some county jail time.

While Contempt of Court may not be a felony there may be some felony elements based on violating Civil Rights.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Throwing someone in jail over not accomplishing her job is bigotry

Not performing the job as ordered by Federal Courts is Contempt of Court and jail time may well be in order - or some
heavy fines, or both.what ever law is in question.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
Since she took the job, or applied, for it when there was another law, then her refusal to uphold the new law is an equivalence to the "no retroactivity principle". As the act of changing the law, changed her job. Thus the new law cannot be applied to her job, if she so chooses to ignore that new law.

I'm another one who isn't a lawyer, but I seem to remember that no retroactivity needs to be specified in a law for it to apply.

It is going to take a very long bow for her attorney to reach that one and I doubt that he will even try. His job right now is to keep his client from being punished by a Federal Court.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
But then wouldn´t that qualify as harassment?

Not a chance. The Holy Rollers may think so, but when you have a Federal Court Order you will obey that order or you will be paying the consequences. Right now her lawyer needs to ensure she understands that she will not win against a Federal Court.

Personally I would like to see the Judge give her a $5,000 fine and 30 days, and suspend both contingent on her obeying the Court Order. If she fails to issue the licenses then the judge doesn't even call her in - he just signs the document ending the suspension and a warrant for her arrest.
 
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OA412
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Throwing someone in jail over not accomplishing her job is bigotry.

Bigotry? Are you serious or just trolling? Punishment for contempt may, and often does, include jail time. It's not as though this is the first time someone was threatened with jail time for violating a court order.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Resentfulness isn't legitimate grounds for punishing her like a criminal.

She has refused to comply with a court order handed down by the United States Supreme Court. She's being punished like a criminal because she has refused to perform the duties she was elected to perform under the constitutions of Kentucky and the United States. There's no such thing as "God's Law."
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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:26 pm

sorry, why don't they just fire her? why are they going for the contempt of court and jail time route?
 
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OA412
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:36 pm

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 47):
sorry, why don't they just fire her? why are they going for the contempt of court and jail time route?

Because they can't fire her. She's an elected official.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:38 pm

Her lastest attempt: Her lawyers filed a last-ditch appeal to the Supreme Court, asking that they grant her "asylum for her conscience."

She should bring her toothbrush on Thursday.
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