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Spacepope
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 36):
I think that she will be fined, then she will get a www,gofundme.com account, she will get a LOT of donations. Then she will quit for "health reasons" - and that will be the end of that.

Except Gofundme prohibits accounts to be set up for funding illegal activities, and as we've seen with that site before, paying the fines for being held in contempt of court qualify as illegal activity. No doubt she and her lawyers will find a way to fleece evangelical rubes, but I'm certain that gofundme method won't work.
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Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
I am not saying the woman is right. I am just saying that she shouldn't go to prison since her elected position has changed since she took office, and the state of Kentucky should make accommodations to circumvent her.

Everyone has to follow court orders or they will be held in contempt of court. If the Judge decides that a fine is warranted he or she will fine the person in contempt. If the judge believes that jail is more appropriate then this gal will be going there.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
Kentucky has the power to remove her.

We really don't need to remove her, we just need to have a Federal Judge stay on her case. If she gets 10 days and a $5,000 fine and ten continues to refuse to issue those licenses then give her 20 days and a $10,000 fine. Move on up to 30 days every time she refuses to issue a license. And while she is in jail have a district judge issue the licenses

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
Easier said than done when an 80,000 dollar a year government salary with benefits is riding on it.

Unless, of course, continual contempt of court and continual fines reduces that income to a poverty level.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 79):
Executive still leaves everything open to legal challenges until the legislation changes

But a Federal Judge does not have to wait and, hopefully, will not wait.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 85):
I am not arguing that. I am arguing that without the legal statutes, long legal proceedings will take place.

Gays have already waited for their civil rights and there is no need for them to wait any longer when it comes to this woman. She does it or spends time in jail so a judge can issue the licenses.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 93):
You forget that she has hired Christian Defense fund lawyers with an agenda. We are far from done.

We will see how far from done we are after her court hearing tomorrow. Hopefully she gets jail time and is tossed in with some really tough lesbians. Maybe they can convince her to stop denying civil rights to people because she doesn't like their preferences.

The Christian Defense Fund can (and probably will) pay her fines, but they cannot do her jail time. Every day she refused to issue a license she is again in contempt of court.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
She is sad, and the situation is unfortunate

I personally don't believe she is sad. I believe that she is enjoying her 15 minutes of fame and will ride it for all it is worth - until a Federal Judge gives her some jail time.
 
910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 87):
Exactly, and this is where the State of Kentucky can fix a lot of problems really quickly as NC did.

The issue in North Carolina wasn't fixed easily as the legislature had to override a Governor's veto. The issue in NC is far from being over. You also failed to mention this law also allows government employees to no issue licenses to inter-racical couples.
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...lina-s-new-hurdle-for-gay-marriage

But there are two important differences between the North Carolina law and RFRA. One is that RFRA applies to private individuals, not government employees. When performing their official functions, North Carolina magistrates should be treated as “neither Jew nor Gentile, neither Catholic nor agnostic,” to quote Justice Felix Frankfurter. A law that allows government officials to avoid their official duties for religious reasons has the effect of establishing the officials’ religion as the law of the state.

The second crucial difference is that the North Carolina law doesn’t provide for any balancing test in which the interests of the couple seeking to be married or the government’s interest in equality are weighed against those of the public official.

In a 1985 case called Thornton v. Caldor, the Supreme Court struck down a Connecticut law that created an unqualified right for Sabbath observers not to be disciplined for refusing to work on whatever day they considered their Sabbath. The law said that “an employee's refusal to work on his Sabbath shall not constitute grounds for his dismissal.”

The court, in an opinion by then-Chief Justice Warren Burger, struck down the law as violating the establishment clause. Burger reasoned that it was an unconstitutional advancement of religion to treat the interests of religious Sabbath observers as absolute, without considering in any way the countervailing interests of employers. “This unyielding weighting in favor of Sabbath observers over all other interests contravenes a fundamental principle of the Religion Clauses,” he wrote.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 103):
You also failed to mention this law also allows government employees to no issue licenses to inter-racical couples.

I fully expect it to get struck down for this and

Quoting 910A (Reply 103):
The second crucial difference is that the North Carolina law doesn’t provide for any balancing test in which the interests of the couple seeking to be married or the government’s interest in equality are weighed against those of the public official.

this.

However. It is now on the books and enforceable at the executive level until such time as it is deemed unconstitutional and then the Clerks can stage their own Kim Davis tantrums. However, by the time it matriculates to that level, I expect most of the Clerks will have moved on and just done their jobs.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 102):
Everyone has to follow court orders or they will be held in contempt of court. If the Judge decides that a fine is warranted he or she will fine the person in contempt. If the judge believes that jail is more appropriate then this gal will be going there.

Perhaps, but the legal challenges here are still present, and could be fixed by Kentucky properly handling this issue.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 102):
We really don't need to remove her, we just need to have a Federal Judge stay on her case. If she gets 10 days and a $5,000 fine and ten continues to refuse to issue those licenses then give her 20 days and a $10,000 fine. Move on up to 30 days every time she refuses to issue a license. And while she is in jail have a district judge issue the licenses

The federal judge can do what he wants, but the real fix is having the State of Kentucky and it's branches of government fix this, otherwise we have years of jurisdiction issues in the courts.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 102):

Gays have already waited for their civil rights and there is no need for them to wait any longer when it comes to this woman. She does it or spends time in jail so a judge can issue the licenses.

But she is keeping straights and gays from getting married, so she is not applying unequal protection.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 102):

I personally don't believe she is sad. I believe that she is enjoying her 15 minutes of fame and will ride it for all it is worth - until a Federal Judge gives her some jail time.

No she is sad. Married 4 times. Finds Jesus after her grandmother dies, and a host of other issues. She is a basket case.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 72):
This is no different than being with a bank which changes terms of agreement at will. Don't like it? Change banks. Same thing here. Don't like it? Step down.

Easier said than done when an 80,000 dollar a year government salary with benefits is riding on it.

Then she should probably start issuing licenses to everyone and keep her 80,000 dollar a year government salary with benefits.
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 105):
Then she should probably start issuing licenses to everyone and keep her 80,000 dollar a year government salary with benefits.

If she were interested in serving the state and federal rulings, and eventual laws, then yes. However their is a higher Agenda here.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 102):
The Christian Defense Fund c
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 106):

CAS, I have a feeling that you really just wanting the state of Kentucky to stop letting all the patsy clerks be the fall guys in this mess. That it is the state that is at fault and essentially allowing this and being lazy by not actively addressing the issue with law. Is that correct?

I still think the court dealing with the clerks at issue is fine and proper and perfectly valid, but if my above is correct I do not disagree with you either on that.

Tugg
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 107):
CAS, I have a feeling that you really just wanting the state of Kentucky to stop letting all the patsy clerks be the fall guys in this mess. That it is the state that is at fault and essentially allowing this and being lazy by not actively addressing the issue with law. Is that correct?

It's not about letting them be the fall guys, it is about letting them dictate their own terms based on guidelines that are not firmed up in state law. Make no mistake she is an Elected Official that is refusing to uphold Executive decisions made above here, however she is using legal motions to prolong the issue and continues to punish the citizens of Rowan County.
I am not saying the state is at fault or is she at fault if her beliefs are that strong, but the State of Kentucky has the power legislatively and executively to make he arguments moot. The current laws in place make her a problematic person in Rowan county.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 107):
I still think the court dealing with the clerks at issue is fine and proper and perfectly valid, but if my above is correct I do not disagree with you either on that.

The court is fine at judging the rule of law, but the rule of law here is very new and does not have long standing precedent.

I along with many others think she should do the smart thing if she can't carry out her duties and resign. We can fine her and inprison her with judicial force, but it doesn't fix the issues facing couples in Rowan county, and does not stop a future Clerk in Kentucky from acting with the same processes. There should be a legislative fix to allow the citizens to have access to a Clerk that is more agreeable with the current laws to expedite valid requests from the clerk of courts.
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Matt6461
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
The Free Exercise Clause not only protects religious belief and expression; it also seems to allow for violation of laws, as long as that violation is made for religious reasons.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause

The quote is from a very right-wing scholar. That point is highly debated.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
Like I said, the state of Kentucky has the power to make accommodations

Disputed. See above.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
Lawyers are VERY respectful of Federal Judges and this gal's attorney may well deliver a Come To Jesus lecture to her after the meeting.

This lawyer is from Liberty Counsel - a bunch of wingnuts. You'd hope they're respectful but can't count on that. The organization may want to play this out for as much fundraising as possible.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
Unless you can prove that she is refusing to follow the law (as passed by the KY legislature), you'll have a hard time forcing her out.

WTF are you talking about? The Supremacy Clause establishes that federal law defeats state law. The 14th Amendment, under which Obergefell was decided, specifically abrogates state's rights to discriminate. KY law has been ruled away here. There is no KY law to speak of.

Sorry if you're a states-rightser but states are only residual sovereigns. We did have a little tiff over this issue 150 years ago...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.

Clearly not. Constitutional review has absolutely nothing to do with English Common Law. Common Law comes from caselaw but can be overruled by the legislature. Constitutional law supersedes legislatures and comes from specifically enacted provisions [hint: The Constitution].

Quoting Tugger (Reply 20):
She is acting under "God's law" according to her, so she is breaking her oath to "uphold the law" which are based on the Constitution and the powers that flow from it. Not God.

There are a few other places where God's law is supreme. The area between roughly Aleppo and Mosul is one of them, for instance. I'll chip in for a plane ticket for her.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
Unless you can prove that she is refusing to follow the law (as passed by the KY legislature), you'll have a hard time forcing her out.

Easy.

When the Kentucky legislature ratified the US Constitution, it in effect passed a law saying that the US Constitution, and all of its amendments, procedures, and rules would reign supreme over their territory.

That system has produced a ruling which states that she must issue marriage licenses to any pair of consenting adults not within a certain degree of blood relationship (defined by KY law), regardless of each person's sex or gender.

Hence, she is in violation of law as passed by the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 108):
There should be a legislative fix

This is the problem with people not being educated on the legal system. The legislature and judicial branches are equal. Legislation and rulings are different forms of the same thing, and both have an effect on the law and people that is equal to the other.

If someone is willing to disobey a court order, what is to stop them from disobeying legislation?
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 98):
have her having to press a court case rather than delay the (want to be) happy couples.

She has pressed several court cases and, each time, she lost. She is just a crybaby at this point.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 102):
The Christian Defense Fund can (and probably will) pay her fines, but they cannot do her jail time. Every day she refused to issue a license she is again in contempt of court.

And CDF will probably sue someone for religious discrimination.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 93):
The State of Kentucky needs to change the constitution and laws, because the constitution and laws are still on the books that she swore to in her mind.

When I got my driver's license there wasn't a fine by driving on the shoulder. So because a regulation has been passed since, until my driver's license is renewed, I can't be fined for driving on the shoulder. Makes perfect sense to me.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
t is her refusal to perform them in a job that was created under state laws ,where she swore an oath on a constitution that has been ruled judicially as unenforceable, but there is no quick access framework for the citizens to bypass her inability to adapt to the changing rules.

You just answered the dilemma: the laws are UNENFORCEABLE meaning that she is no longer bound to them. The state doesn't have to do anything because the law in the book is nothing more than a strikethrough. If (for example) Arkansas and Utah officials can get this through their heads, going through the same process, this lady can.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 108):
The current laws in place make her a problematic person in Rowan county.

casinterest, I really don't know if you're trolling. By order of the Supreme Court, there ARE no more laws that forbid her from licensing same sex marriages. The executive branch told all clerks to disregard the laws that did not allow them to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. Being equal branches and knowing there's no rationale for it, clerks have obliged. If the others can do it without "needing a change in the law", this woman can.
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Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 108):
but the rule of law here is very new and does not have long standing precedent.

I don't care how "new" it is, today there is no doubt that gay marriages are legal in America. All this broad is doing is denying these citizens their Civil Rights. Maybe local citizens can start suing her for accepting her paycheck while refusing to do the job she has been paid for. The more lawsuits you get hit with the more attention you start paying to options to end the standoff.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 108):
We can fine her and inprison her with judicial force, but it doesn't fix the issues facing couples in Rowan county, and does not stop a future Clerk in Kentucky from acting with the same processes.

If she is continually sent to jail for a brief period of time those who were denied licenses will have a chance to get them while she is "away". Same with any assistants who refuse to do their job.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 108):
There should be a legislative fix to allow the citizens to have access to a Clerk that is more agreeable with the current laws to expedite valid requests from the clerk of courts.

I have a feeling that there will be a legislative fix as soon as the legislature returns. But of an embarrassment this gal is.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 109):
This lawyer is from Liberty Counsel - a bunch of wingnuts. You'd hope they're respectful but can't count on that.

I seems to me that theFederal Judge has sufficient powers to ensure that this wing nut is respectful in the court room, and in making public statements. Lawyers can be found in contempt of court and can serve their 10 to 30 days. As I understand it, lawyers can also be censured which I believe is something they do not want to endure.

So her attorney may push a bit, but if the judge says 10 days then that gal can go straight from the courtroom to the pokey for those 10 days and then face the judge again.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 109):
Disputed. See above.

It can be disputed, but everything can which is why we are in a thread discussing Kim Davis  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 110):
This is the problem with people not being educated on the legal system. The legislature and judicial branches are equal. Legislation and rulings are different forms of the same thing, and both have an effect on the law and people that is equal to the other.

If someone is willing to disobey a court order, what is to stop them from disobeying legislation?

It's called the executive branch.


The issue here is that we are in a situation where a group of Legislated Laws in Kentucky were ruled unconstitutional by the Federal Judicial Branch, and the Executive Branch of the State and Federal Government decided to stop enforcing those restrictions. but the Legislative Branch has not spelled out how the process for going forward should be spelled out for Clerks of the Court who swore into office on a Bible , to support the constitution of the state. That we are here is testimony to the complications of three branches of Government and the fact that the constitution under which the Clerk swore in with a Bible, is no longer the same. In her mind, this creates a problem. It may not be a problem for the rest of the world, but it is still a problem that Kentucky needs to resolve using legislation.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 112):
When I got my driver's license there wasn't a fine by driving on the shoulder. So because a regulation has been passed since, until my driver's license is renewed, I can't be fined for driving on the shoulder. Makes perfect sense to me.

Nope, never said you couldn't be fined. Bad argument. Try again.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 112):
You just answered the dilemma: the laws are UNENFORCEABLE meaning that she is no longer bound to them. The state doesn't have to do anything because the law in the book is nothing more than a strikethrough. If (for example) Arkansas and Utah officials can get this through their heads, going through the same process, this lady can.

read the above statement about the bible and constitution. Unenforceable is not the same as removing the law from the books and creating legislation that changes the language to force the Clerks to marry any couple.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 112):

casinterest, I really don't know if you're trolling.

Nope, just reading into the minutia of hell that the legal system brings us.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 112):
The executive branch told all clerks to disregard the laws that did not allow them to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. Being equal branches and knowing there's no rationale for it, clerks have obliged. If the others can do it without "needing a change in the law", this woman can.

The executive branch can tell the clerk to disregard the laws that did not allow them to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples., but it is not the same as the Legislative Branch in Kentucky righting laws to Compel them to issue licenses for same sex couples. In this case , she is trying to redefine marriage into something it isn't and something that won't pass legal muster over time, but it is still causing problems for the people of Rowan county until Kentucky rights laws that compels her to issue the licenses or bypasses her. By the morning I expect she will cave or be close to it, but the issue will still stand for any other nutjob that feels ok being run through the process with the Christian Defense Fund leading the charge.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):

I don't care how "new" it is, today there is no doubt that gay marriages are legal in America. All this broad is doing is denying these citizens their Civil Rights

And she is succeeding because Kentucky as a state hasn't written laws to bypass her, and her religious feelings on this. She may not have a legal foot to stand on, but she has lawyers and plenty of courts for grievances to be filed. Kentucky bypasses all of this with some legislation and action.
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Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:24 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
Unenforceable is not the same as removing the law from the books

That's because you don't know what an analogy is.

There is no such thing as "the books", that only a legislature can edit. There are documents that keep records of laws, that are replaced by other documents when a law is added, changed, repealed, overturned, or overruled to reflect the current status of the law.

The laws that Kentucky passed banning same sex marriage no longer exist. That they might appear in a book somewhere is because you don't throw out an entire tome because a few lines have changed.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
That we are here is testimony to the complications of three branches of Government

No, it's not. The OP asked why she isn't in prison. The correct answer is because the judge simply hasn't gotten around to putting her there yet.

Others ask why she isn't fired. The answer is because an elected official can't be fired, but are recalled or impeached.

The only complications are ones you create in your mind based on faulty assumptions about how our government and legal system actually work. And that's something that no legislature can fix.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:33 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
The issue here is that we are in a situation where a group of Legislated Laws in Kentucky were ruled unconstitutional by the Federal Judicial Branch, and the Executive Branch of the State and Federal Government decided to stop enforcing those restrictions. but the Legislative Branch has not spelled out how the process for going forward should be spelled out for Clerks of the Court

They don't have to. There is already a defined process for the certification of marriage, and the Supreme Court has ruled that such process cannot be denied to couples on the basis of gender. Clerks are to carry out the process they've been carrying out before the ruling was handed down, just to a wider audience. Simple.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
Unenforceable is not the same as removing the law from the books and creating legislation that changes the language to force the Clerks to marry any couple.

No legislation is necessary. The language forcing the clerks to marry any couple comes from the Constitution of the United States, which supersedes all other federal or state legislation.

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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:53 am

If she is jailed, then, the next (R) President of the Untied States, will pardon her, on Day 1.
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ltbewr
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:29 pm

One other issue that religious right people like Mike Huckabee try bring up with same-gender marriage is that the State Law in Kentucky (as in some other states) define marriage as only between 1 male and 1 female. Thus this brings up the issue of 'state rights' and if the clerk if following state law that still has that definition and only the state legislature can change that. Of course that is false thinking, all kinds of discrimination by skin color by state laws have been made illegal by US Supreme Court decisions and states had to comply, most directly in Loving v. Virginia in 1967 that ended state bans of interracial marriage. Even in Kentucky upon the US Supreme Court's decision on same-gender marriage, the State's governor said all officials must follow the new decision and grant marriage licenses to all otherwise legally qualified persons including same-gender couples.
Of course there are many who object to the Federal Courts interfering with 'States rights' as to areas primarily administered by the individual states. Thus this latest fight over clerks saying they don't want to issue marriage licenses to same-gender couples due to 'religious' rights, but also gets into the 'states rights' issues. That is a issue that in part led to the Civil War over 150 years ago and resolved in parts with the 14th Amendment. Even in the basic Articles of the US Constitution there is the 'full faith and credit' statement that includes states must recognize basic state licenses including marriages as well as the separation of 'church and state',
I suspect this woman may be subject to massive fines by the Federal Court to force her to issues same gender marriage licenses or resign from her office and replaced, then there will be appeals that will be supported by those that object to same-gender marriage on religious rights but also by those that support states rights. This is going to get a lot messier, probably get involved with national politics and gin up more political attention for the right over far more important issues.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 117):
as well as the separation of 'church and state',

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Treaty of Tripoli, 219 years ago. Didn´t sink in i guess.

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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 112):
When I got my driver's license there wasn't a fine by driving on the shoulder. So because a regulation has been passed since, until my driver's license is renewed, I can't be fined for driving on the shoulder. Makes perfect sense to me.

Nope, never said you couldn't be fined. Bad argument. Try again.

Actually, it fits. Your logic stems from the fact that when she was sworn in, the laws read that same sex couples couldn't get married and that since the law changed, she needs either accommodation or somehow needs to be authorized by the legislative branch.

It's the same thing: when I was licensed, it wasn't an offense to drive on the shoulder so until I renew my license (which would mean that I'm accepting the revised laws) or an updated book comes to tell me about the changes, I can't be penalized in any way for doing it because, hey, I haven't been told about the update and haven't been given accommodation to get used to the new rules.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
Unenforceable is not the same as removing the law from the books and creating legislation that changes the language to force the Clerks to marry any couple.

It is within their job to issue marriage licenses to whomever asks for one. The Kentucky Constitution was amended to bar marriages they didn't want (which I would assume included polygamy, intra-family marriage, and of course, same sex marriage). Because there was a ruling that said same sex couples can get married, their job description hasn't changed. Their job was still the same, only restricted by the constitutional amendments. The amendment was struck down. No more restriction. There's no paperwork needed and there's no need to remove language that's dead and unenforceable.

What's next? The legislature passes a law that says clerks must issue licenses and signed by the governor? Oh, but the state Supreme Court needs to weigh in since they're an equal branch and must have a say as well?
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
The laws that Kentucky passed banning same sex marriage no longer exist. That they might appear in a book somewhere is because you don't throw out an entire tome because a few lines have changed.

Just because Laws are "erased" does not mean that the laws for how people are expected to behave are in place.

There are very real conscientious dissent laws in place around the world for this reason. Kim Davis's team have even filed a motion on HER behalf to the laws demanding here name be on the certificates to be removed. There are real legal issues here which is why the legal system is so large.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
No, it's not. The OP asked why she isn't in prison. The correct answer is because the judge simply hasn't gotten around to putting her there yet.

That's not a correct answer at all. It is an answer that ignores the question.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
The only complications are ones you create in your mind based on faulty assumptions about how our government and legal system actually work.

No, I know how our legal system works, because there are thousands of lawsuits a year. Thousands to possibly millions of laws written a year, Millions of judgments a year.

This lady is exploring her rights though the legal system due to new impacts on her job related to a previous legal ruling.

Quoting Mir (Reply 115):
They don't have to. There is already a defined process for the certification of marriage, and the Supreme Court has ruled that such process cannot be denied to couples on the basis of gender. Clerks are to carry out the process they've been carrying out before the ruling was handed down, just to a wider audience. Simple.

It's not about the process. it is about the rights of the person that has to do the job. That is what the legal system is exploring.

Quoting Mir (Reply 115):
No legislation is necessary. The language forcing the clerks to marry any couple comes from the Constitution of the United States, which supersedes all other federal or state legislation.

Forcing. No, it says no such thing about forcing. If force was defined in the constitution . we wouldn't be in the legal system fighting this out. And something else would have probably been Forced long ago that you would not be happy about.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 119):

It's the same thing: when I was licensed, it wasn't an offense to drive on the shoulder so until I renew my license (which would mean that I'm accepting the revised laws) or an updated book comes to tell me about the changes, I can't be penalized in any way for doing it because, hey, I haven't been told about the update and haven't been given accommodation to get used to the new rules.

No, because you are under the jurisdiction of the law.
Her complaint is that the LAW is Forcing her to sign and attest her name to a document that she does not agree with. This is a complaint that has to be heard in court. She is exhausting all of her legal avenues. I think she will fail, but I still think that Kentucky needs to fix its laws so that the Clerk does not become the roadblock for future marriage issues .


We are completely in this situation for legal reasons. Both sides are trying to prove a point in court about what the law says and requires and what their rights are under it. Kim Davis doesn't want her name on marriage certificates for Gay people. Does she have a right to that? Perhaps , perhaps not, but it wouldn't be an issue if Kentucky had a law that eliminated that as a burden for her.
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DocLightning
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 93):
Simplest solution - tell her "you aren't performing your job, therefore we cannot pay you. You are free to come in to work for free very day until you begin to perform the duties for which you were elected."

And then she becomes a GoFundMe millionaire.

I don't understand why the ACLU isn't trying to put her in prison. The court could find her ten trillion dollars and she just won't pay it and will continue to go to work and taunt these people.

I understand that they don't want to "make her a martyr" but the people who would be bolstered by such a development aren't exactly going to walk away because she's not a martyr. So martyr her.

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 116):
If she is jailed, then, the next (R) President of the Untied States, will pardon her, on Day 1.

Given the GOP frontrunners, I think that will be a good ten years at a minimum.
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 121):
I don't understand why the ACLU isn't trying to put her in prison

The case has already been decided. ACLU does not need to be involved.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 117):
Of course there are many who object to the Federal Courts interfering with 'States rights' as to areas primarily administered by the individual states

Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the individual states to issue marriage licenses to all consenting adult couples? Let's say Kentucky, as a whole, refuses to issue marriage licenses but Ohio, as a whole, does. Those who wish to marry and who are the same gender can simply move across the river to Ohio. Kentucky would be losing all that tax revenue and associated taxes. I know it is a drop in the bucket, but it makes fiscal sense to me.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 120):
Just because Laws are "erased" does not mean that the laws for how people are expected to behave are in place.

The clerk is expected to issue marriage certificates to those who meet the standards established by law. One of those standards was that the marriage had to be between a man and a woman, but the Supreme Court invalidated that standard. All the other standards remain in place, so how she is expected to act is simple and obvious: if they meet the other standards, issue the certificate.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 120):
Forcing. No, it says no such thing about forcing.

Unless the clerk has the authority to decide not to issue a marriage license to anyone based on not feeling like it, then the law does compel her to issue the certificates. It can't physically force her to do it, but it certainly levy penalties if she does not.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 120):
Her complaint is that the LAW is Forcing her to sign and attest her name to a document that she does not agree with. This is a complaint that has to be heard in court. She is exhausting all of her legal avenues.

She has exhausted her legal avenues. Her case went up to the Supreme Court, who refused to hear it. That's it. She's done what she can, the courts have ruled against her, and by defying their rulings she is in contempt.

-Mir
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910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 121):
Given the GOP frontrunners, I think that will be a good ten years at a minimum.

   You're on to something here..but she will have a chapter dedicated to her in a State of Texas approved high school history book.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 120):
There are real legal issues here which is why the legal system is so large.

Come on, there a no new groundbreaking legal issues here, and I can assure you her case isn't why the legal system is so large.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 120):
we wouldn't be in the legal system fighting this out

We are not fighting this out, it's just her and her free legal team of nut jobs.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 120):
but it wouldn't be an issue if Kentucky had a law that eliminated that as a burden for her.

   This doesn't have a thing to with today's court hearing. It's about the simple question; did she disobey the judge or not. I guess you weren't about during the civil rights era, discrimination was found to be illegal by public officials.
 
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 124):

Come on, there a no new groundbreaking legal issues here, and I can assure you her case isn't why the legal system is so large.

Sure there is. Accommodations have been made in the past for people with religious views.

Quoting 910A (Reply 124):
We are not fighting this out, it's just her and her free legal team of nut jobs.

We are all in this fight as it comes down to answering how much power the Government has to order this person to sign something she is religiously opposed too, and whether the Government has the power to accommodate those laws. I would assert the State of Kentucky has not gone far enough to accommodate this issue.

Quoting 910A (Reply 124):
This doesn't have a thing to with today's court hearing. It's about the simple question; did she disobey the judge or not. I guess you weren't about during the civil rights era, discrimination was found to be illegal by public officials.

How is she discriminating if she is holding up all licenses. Guess you weren't paying attention at all.
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910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:10 pm

Looks like someone should have bought her toothbrush.
from the Washington Post a few minutes ago:

Breaking: Kentucky clerk ordered to jail for contempt of court

[Edited 2015-09-03 10:15:47]

Judge Bunning reportedly said fines would be insufficient to motivate Davis to take action, as they could be paid by her supporters. He said she is to remain in federal custody until she agrees to issue marriage licenses, or orders her deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses, without regard to gender.


[Edited 2015-09-03 10:27:36]
 
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 125):
How is she discriminating if she is holding up all licenses. Guess you weren't paying attention at all.

She has explicitly said that she is not granting any licenses because of opposition to SSM. She has said it many times. Intent matters.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 125):
We are all in this fight as it comes down to answering how much power the Government has to order this person to sign something she is religiously opposed too, and whether the Government has the power to accommodate those laws.

Nope. She is the government in this case.

A police officer decides that his religious convictions mandate him to execute on sight anyone doing drugs. That is not a matter of "government ordering someone to so something he is religiously opposed to do" (i.e. letting drug users live). That is a matter of a government official breaking the law. It's no different in this case. A government official has broken the law.

As a private citizen, she has a fundamental right to her religious beliefs, but she does not have a fundamental right to be county clerk.


Quoting seb146 (Reply 122):
ACLU does not need to be involved.

ACLU is involved. I thought the ACLU was providing legal counsel to the aggrieved couples but I realized I'm not sure which group is doing that. ACLU is certainly supporting it, either way.
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910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 125):
Sure there is. Accommodations have been made in the past for people with religious views.

Can you give an example of accommodations provided to an elected official that has been upheld by the courts?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 125):
We are all in this fight as it comes down to answering how much power the Government has to order this person to sign something she is religiously opposed too, and whether the Government has the power to accommodate those laws. I would assert the State of Kentucky has not gone far enough to accommodate this issue.

How about Judges that have to sign off death sentences even though it violates their religiously opposed too. An elected official does not have the right to pick and choose. In the end she could had one of her deputies clerks sign off on the licenses.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 125):
How is she discriminating if she is holding up all licenses. Guess you weren't paying attention at all.

The fact that she is holding up all licenses, because of one issue is discrimination and of course against the values that she has posted on her office web site.

As county clerk I am responsible for providing many services to the people of Rowan county. These duties include general categories of clerical duties of the fiscal court: issuing and registering, recording and keeping various legal records, registering and purging voter rolls, and conducting election duties and tax duties.

Our office is here to serve the public in a friendly, professional and efficient manner.

http://rowancountyclerk.com

The fact that you're auguring with an active attorney (Matt6461) about the law is just too funny.

[Edited 2015-09-03 10:29:45]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 127):
She has explicitly said that she is not granting any licenses because of opposition to SSM. She has said it many times. Intent matters.

It does matter, but there are other loopholes to the legality here. Such as forcing her to sign something that is a legal document that enforces something she doesn't believe in. Would you sign off on the orders for the chemicals that you know are going to be used in a lethal injection?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 127):
As a private citizen, she has a fundamental right to her religious beliefs, but she does not have a fundamental right to be county clerk.

She has a right to be elected and a right to ask to be released from having to sign the certificates, which is what she has asked in her appeals. I think that the state of Kentucky should remove her requirement for having to sign off on the license if it is valid and leave it for another clerk to sign off on.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 127):
A police officer decides that his religious convictions mandate him to execute on sight anyone doing drugs. That is not a matter of "government ordering someone to so something he is religiously opposed to do" (i.e. letting drug users live). That is a matter of a government official breaking the law. It's no different in this case. A government official has broken the law.

In that case he is violating someone else's rights to life. she is currently not violating others rights to get married. Only their right to get married in the county with her signature attached. Anyone in Rowan county that really wants to get married can go to another county and get their certificate. Everything else at this point is nothing more than legal wrangling between two sides trying to make a point.

Should cooler heads prevail.. yes. But court cases aren't usually based on cooler heads and quiet resignations.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 126):
Looks like someone should have bought her toothbrush.

Unfortunate that it came to that, but ultimately it's probably necessary. Hopefully the provisions that allow for another officer to do the certificates in her absence can be enacted.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
Such as forcing her to sign something that is a legal document that enforces something she doesn't believe in.

She doesn't have to sign the document. There's another perfectly valid and legal option to her: resign.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
she is currently not violating others rights to get married. Only their right to get married in the county with her signature attached.

In order to be married, her signature has to be attached. So she is violating their right to be married.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
Anyone in Rowan county that really wants to get married can go to another county and get their certificate.

At additional expense and effort to them. Unacceptable. She's got a job, she took an oath to do the duties of that job, she needs to either do the job or leave the job and let someone else do it.

-Mir
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DocLightning
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
It does matter, but there are other loopholes to the legality here. Such as forcing her to sign something that is a legal document that enforces something she doesn't believe in. Would you sign off on the orders for the chemicals that you know are going to be used in a lethal injection?

No, but I would not take that job in the first place. If I were in such a job and this became a requirement I would quit.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
She has a right to be elected and a right to ask to be released from having to sign the certificates,

She does. She did not get the release from signing the documents. So in that case the smart move would have been to quit.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
In that case he is violating someone else's rights to life. she is currently not violating others rights to get married.

Yes she is. The law has to think of repercussions. If she is permitted to do this then all 120 clerks in Kentucky would refuse to marry gays (or marry anyone). That is not a good policy at all. The policy needs to be that clerks need to follow the law.

By your argument, a Muslim secretary of state in Michigan could refuse to issue drivers licenses to women because that would be his fundamental right. And by your argument after Brown v. Board of Education it would be acceptable for students to be integrated outside their district. Maybe three hours away. Again, no. That's now how it works.

Your argument is that specifically for SSM but for no other reason religious beliefs should get special treatment. That is not defensible.
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910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 129):
leave it for another clerk to sign off on.

A deputy clerk can sign the marriage license now in Kentucky. She is preventing her staff to do that.
 
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 126):
Breaking: Kentucky clerk ordered to jail for contempt of court

And she and her lawyers will claim religious persecution. It is not persecution if you refuse to do your job.
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 128):
Can you give an example of accommodations provided to an elected official that has been upheld by the courts?

In NC we will see if the court lawsuits hold, but it has been done.

It is not just a matter of the courts. it is a matter of Kentucky providing an out as Congress did for US Service members that wanted to vest their religious interests.

http://harvardjlg.com/wp-content/upl...on-of-Religion-Thirty-Years-On.pdf


Consider Goldman v. Weinberger,79 a pre-Smith decision in which the
Supreme Court rejected a mandatory accommodation for discreet headgear
to be worn by members of the military under their military headgear.80
Goldman was an ordained rabbi serving as a clinical psychologist in a military
mental health clinic.81 His religion counseled him to wear a yarmulke on
his head at all times.82 A military regulation allowed members of the services
to wear only the headgear prescribed by military regulations, which did not
authorize wearing yarmulkes.83 The Court held that applying the regulation
to Goldman did not violate his constitutional rights because the military interest
in having a uniform set of military clothing and headgear outweighed
the impairment of Goldman’s religious beliefs.84 Congress responded with a
statutory accommodation.85 It required that the military allow service members
to wear “neat and conservative” coverings when doing so was required
by the members’ religious belief.86


Quoting 910A (Reply 128):

How about Judges that have to sign off death sentences even though it violates their religiously opposed too. An elected official does not have the right to pick and choose. In the end she could had one of her deputies clerks sign off on the licenses.

Those judges ,as judges, have the power to hear cases and recuse themselves from cases that they are conflicted with


Quoting 910A (Reply 128):
The fact that you're auguring with an active attorney (Matt6461) about the law is just too funny.

the law is all about arguments.

Mrs. Davis is having her days in court , and all valid appeals heard in court. Just because the wheel grinds slowly, does not mean that justice Is not being served or will be served.
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mt99
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Why is this woman not in prison?

In she goes...

Kentucky clerk ordered jailed for refusing to issue gay marriage license

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...-11e5-9812-92d5948a40f8_story.html
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Spacepope
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 132):

A deputy clerk can sign the marriage license now in Kentucky. She is preventing her staff to do that.

Reports were that she was actively intimidating her staff into not signing. Judge has given her staff an ultimatum to begin the signing now too.
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rwessel
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 125):
Accommodations have been made in the past for people with religious views.

She apparently will be receiving accommodations in the nearest federal prison...   
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 137):
She apparently will be receiving accommodations in the nearest federal prison...

If She is willing to do it to protect her rights, and her requests that weren't answered by the Kentucky legislature then so be it. The Judge just made her a Martyr to a lot of people.

None of this would have been necessary if the Kentucky Legislature had convened and done what was necessary to take that power out of her hands to have to sign off. Other states don't require what Kentucy does. The County Clerk's signature . This Federal judge just took the power out of her hand and then threatened Jail to deputy Clerks that really wanted no part of this. So I don't really see this a win. It puts a person in jail while we wait for a bunch of legislators to fix what is already broken.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 134):
Consider Goldman v. Weinberger,79 a pre-Smith decision in which the
Supreme Court rejected a mandatory accommodation for discreet headgear
to be worn by members of the military under their military headgear.80
Goldman was an ordained rabbi serving as a clinical psychologist in a military
mental health clinic.81 His religion counseled him to wear a yarmulke on
his head at all times.82 A military regulation allowed members of the services
to wear only the headgear prescribed by military regulations, which did not
authorize wearing yarmulkes.83 The Court held that applying the regulation
to Goldman did not violate his constitutional rights because the military interest
in having a uniform set of military clothing and headgear outweighed
the impairment of Goldman’s religious beliefs.84 Congress responded with a
statutory accommodation.85 It required that the military allow service members
to wear “neat and conservative” coverings when doing so was required
by the members’ religious belief.86

The wearing or not wearing of a yarmulke has absolutely no bearing on the ability of a clinical psychologist to do their job - it is completely incidental, and thus is a very reasonable accommodation to make.


If we weren't talking about a clinical psychologist for the military, but rather an undercover operative in the Middle East trying to infiltrate ISIS, the wearing of a yarmulke would definitely have an impact on their ability to do their job, and thus would not be a reasonable accommodation to make.

The moral inability to sign marriage certificates has a great deal of bearing on the ability of a clerk, one of whose jobs it is to sign marriage certificates, to do their job. It is not incidental, it prevents them from doing what they're supposed to be doing. And if she's preventing her deputies from doing it on her behalf because she views that as the same as her doing it, there's no reasonable accommodation that can be made. She must resign her position, or she's in violation of the law and needs to be penalized for it.



Quoting casinterest (Reply 134):
Those judges ,as judges, have the power to hear cases and recuse themselves from cases that they are conflicted with

They do, but that's not analogous to what she's doing. It would be analogous if she got one of her deputies to sign the certificates instead of her. But she's not doing that - she's refusing to let anyone in her office issue the certificates.

-Mir
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 139):
They do, but that's not analogous to what she's doing. It would be analogous if she got one of her deputies to sign the certificates instead of her. But she's not doing that - she's refusing to let anyone in her office issue the certificates.

In Kentucky, under Kentucky law, her signature has to appear. This doesn't change whether she signs them or her deputies do.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 138):
The Judge just made her a Martyr to a lot of people.

Criminals are often martyrs to those who don't believe in the rule of law. Doesn't mean we shouldn't penalize them for breaking the law, otherwise the law means nothing.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 140):
In Kentucky, under Kentucky law, her signature has to appear. This doesn't change whether she signs them or her deputies do.

Then she can resign.

She's had THREE options to avoid going to jail or facing fines. She could sign the certificates herself. She could have someone else do it. Or she could leave her office and let someone else take over. Any of them would be fine. One of them would not require her to violate her beliefs (or at least what I perceive her beliefs to be). She chose to do none of them, and instead to violate court orders, which is a crime. So she goes to jail. Which should have been the last resort, but it really does seem like it's come down to that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 141):
She's had THREE options to avoid going to jail or facing fines. She could sign the certificates herself. She could have someone else do it. Or she could leave her office and let someone else take over. Any of them would be fine. One of them would not require her to violate her beliefs (or at least what I perceive her beliefs to be). She chose to do none of them, and instead to violate court orders, which is a crime. So she goes to jail. Which should have been the last resort, but it really does seem like it's come down to that.

There were more options including a fix from the Kentucky legislature. Now we get to sit around paying for someone in prison.
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Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 116):
If she is jailed, then, the next (R) President of the Untied States, will pardon her, on Day 1.

Actually, contempt is not a pardonable offense.

She will sit in jail until she resigns. I give her a week.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
There were more options including a fix from the Kentucky legislature.

It's not the legislature's job to have emergency sessions to go around changing the job responsibilities of various officials statewide because one official doesn't want to do theirs.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
Now we get to sit around paying for someone in prison.

Convening a special session of the legislature isn't cheap either. If they want to take it up when they meet again next year, they can.

-Mir
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 144):
It's not the legislature's job to have emergency sessions to go around changing the job responsibilities of various officials statewide because one official doesn't want to do theirs.

It's not just one, there are others also fighting the requirement.
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Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
Now we get to sit around paying for someone in prison.

Please. The difference in your tax bill because she is sitting in there would add up to the cost of a Big Mac over about a thousand years.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):
It's not just one, there are others also fighting the requirement.

Why can't you get it through your head.

Her argument is not based on any law Kentucky has had. The Kentucky legislature could pass a law today with whatever wording you want, she would still be sitting in jail, because her argument is that her religious beliefs trump any form of earthly authority.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 145):

It's not just one, there are others also fighting the requirement.

Not in Kentucky. But the rest of them should be thrown in jail, too.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:35 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 146):

Her argument is not based on any law Kentucky has had.

Um Yes it is. Kentucky has not Changed it's laws, Just it's enforcement. And their are plenty of Gray areas in Civil cases still to come forth involving child custody, divorce , estates, and a host of other fun issues.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 146):
Not in Kentucky. But the rest of them should be thrown in jail, too.

Because that puts a smiley on your face > and doesn't address the issues that Kentucky placed on her and others without providing a legal accommodations that still got the job done like other states have done, and keeps her out of jail where she can still be a mixed up religious bigot, but not one sitting in jail wasting taxpayer money?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 138):
None of this would have been necessary if the Kentucky Legislature had convened and done what was necessary to take that power out of her hands to have to sign off.

Let me fix this for you:
None of this would have been necessary if she would just have done the job to which she was elected or stepped aside to let someone else do it. Period. End. Of. Story.
jeeez - let it go already.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9906
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 113):
And she is succeeding because Kentucky as a state hasn't written laws to bypass her, and her religious feelings on this

Federal Court Orders override state laws in this situation.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
No, it's not. The OP asked why she isn't in prison. The correct answer is because the judge simply hasn't gotten around to putting her there yet.

And the judge got around to it today.         

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 116):

If she is jailed, then, the next (R) President of the Untied States, will pardon her, on Day 1.

I seriously doubt that Hillary will do that.

Quoting 910A (Reply 132):
A deputy clerk can sign the marriage license now in Kentucky. She is preventing her staff to do that.

The Judge is ensuring that attorneys folly explain the situation, and the risks of jail, to the deputy clerks. They will sign those licenses or they head to jail.

In terms of intimidating her deputies, the judge can issue an order against that and then we have a second path to jail.
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