tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 147):
. Kentucky has not Changed

The law in question seized to exist a while back. The constitution didn't change, so basically the law never even existed. She has no point to argue with, that is why she is in jail and the Judge would be wise to set a daily fine on top of that. She is refusing other citizens their constitutional rights and should quite literally made to pay for it.

Best regards
Thomas
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Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 147):
Um Yes it is.

No, it isn't.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 147):
Kentucky has not Changed it's laws

They don't have to. The Supreme Court of the United States changed Kentucky's laws.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 147):
And their are plenty of Gray areas in Civil cases still to come forth involving child custody, divorce , estates, and a host of other fun issues.

How's that?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 146):
Her argument is not based on any law Kentucky has had. The Kentucky legislature could pass a law today with whatever wording you want, she would still be sitting in jail, because her argument is that her religious beliefs trump any form of earthly authority.

         This is what it ultimately boils down to. She won't do her job even if Kentucky changes its laws to officially require her to do it (even though that's not necessary because of federal supremacy).

Quoting casinterest (Reply 147):
Kentucky has not Changed it's laws, Just it's enforcement.

And if they did change their laws, she wouldn't follow them anyway.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 147):
And their are plenty of Gray areas in Civil cases still to come forth involving child custody, divorce , estates, and a host of other fun issues.

This isn't grey, this is black and white.

-Mir
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johnboy
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
There were more options including a fix from the Kentucky legislature. Now we get to sit around paying for someone in prison.

So you'd want to spend tens of thousands of dollars to call a special session for 3 people who don't want to do their jobs as public officials.

Sounds like good fiscal policy to me.  
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:19 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 148):
None of this would have been necessary if she would just have done the job to which she was elected or stepped aside to let someone else do it. Period. End. Of. Story.
jeeez - let it go already.

None of this would have been necessary under a lot of circumstances .I am just exploring them you are the one that has some sort of issue here.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
Federal Court Orders override state laws in this situation

Yes it does, but it doesn't do much for remedying a bit of a broken system. We are punishing a state servant for not doing what she believes to be immoral. It could be argued that it wasn't her values that changed but rather the Government's , and the Government of Kentucky which caused the conflict using it's own constitution owes a bit of accommodation for it's role in bringing this matter to where it is. When she ran and was elected, it was under an understanding of state law's that were compatible with her beliefs.




Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 151):
How's that?

Legal wordings and family law and other such items that are written into state statutes.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
. We are punishing a state servant for not doing what she believes to be immoral.

She seized to be a state *servent* the moment she decided not to do her job, aka serving the state and its citizens.
The only one that gets punished is a criminal that happens to hold an elected office.

Best regards
Thomas
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
We are punishing a state servant for not doing what she believes to be immoral.

She had other options that would not be immoral, and chose not to use them.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
It could be argued that it wasn't her values that changed but rather the Government's ,

Employers change values all the time. Their employees or agents are expected to adapt or find other work. There is limited room for accommodations, but not when such an accommodation not only means refusal to do work but refusal to let others do it instead.

-Mir
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 155):
She seized to be a state *servent* the moment she decided not to do her job, aka serving the state and its citizens.
The only one that gets punished is a criminal that happens to hold an elected office.

No, she didn't cease to be a state elected official. She ceased to be capable of doing the job she was sworn in to do when the interpretation of the laws changed.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:41 pm

Get the popcorn out. this is going to be fun .

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...E=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
"

The judge later sought a resolution to keep Davis out of jail after all. He overruled an objection from her lawyer, who argued that her six deputy clerks cannot act against her authority. And he called each one before him to declare whether they intend to follow the law. All but the clerk's son, Nathan Davis, promised to comply.

The judge said Nathan Davis' position wouldn't matter, and that his mother could go free as long as she promised not to interfere with issuing of marriage licenses to all couples. But Kim Davis rejected the offer, her attorneys later said.

With that, the hearing ended, and the saga was sure to continue Friday, as gay and lesbian couples vowed to return to the Rowan County clerk's office yet again in hopes that the deputy clerks would keep their promises.
"

the judge is in a bad position here. She is still the Clerk of the court. If only the Kentucky legislature could do something,

In the judge's own words

"The legislative and executive branches do have the ability to make changes," Bunning said. "It's not this court's job to make changes. I don't write law
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:45 pm

It doesn't seem anybody has mentioned it yet, so I will :

ONLY IN MURRICA §§§
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
you are the one that has some sort of issue here.

And yet you're the one that keeps insisting that a law on the books is necessary for her to fully do her job when hundreds of clerks nationwide (including the dozens in Kentucky) don't need one to do so.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
We are punishing a state servant for not doing what she believes to be immoral.

It's not her job to decide what's immoral. I find smoking to be completely unnecessary and harmful to smokers and passerbys. Should I ask the state to tell all shops to ban the sale of cigarettes and outdoor smoking?

She's a government official. It's the state policy that clerks issue marriage licenses. Ergo, because the government no longer has a prohibition against same sex marriage, it's not her place to refuse a license or forbid any of her deputies to issue one for her (which actually implies that she DOES have something against LGBT folks. IMO, a true Christian would hold this job but ask the deputy to issue one for them instead).

Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
When she ran and was elected, it was under an understanding of state law's that were compatible with her beliefs.

When she ran and was elected, Kentucky's same sex marriage ban was struck down but the order was stayed. This wasn't something that happened overnight. The ban came down July 1, 2014. Everyone who had a brain and a TV/computer/radio set knew that it meant that, should the 6th circuit rule in favor or should the SCOTUS rule in favor, bans nationwide would fall and all pertinent authorities will be required to issue licenses. So if she ran she must have known that the same sex marriage ban was already on thin ice (surviving only due to a stay), and when she swore an oath, she should have been fully aware of the consequences of what would happen the following summer should the SCOTUS reverse the 6th circuit's judgment.

She was elected with the law struck down but still enforced. She swore an oath with the law struck down but still enforced.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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ER757
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 154):
.I am just exploring them you are the one that has some sort of issue here.

Nah - I'm just showing how simple this whole thing should be. You're the one trying to drag in a special session of the legislature etc. This whack-job bimbo refuses to do her job and should be relieved of her duties, period. Yet you continue to tilt at windmills if for no other reason than to listen to yourself argue. I'm done here, moving on to another subject   
 
AR385
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
There were more options including a fix from the Kentucky legislature. Now we get to sit around paying for someone in prison.

I think it is a bigger waste of money to pay for someone´s salary that is not doing the job that salary pays.
 
Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 158):
The judge later sought a resolution to keep Davis out of jail after all. He overruled an objection from her lawyer, who argued that her six deputy clerks cannot act against her authority. And he called each one before him to declare whether they intend to follow the law. All but the clerk's son, Nathan Davis, promised to comply.

The judge said Nathan Davis' position wouldn't matter, and that his mother could go free as long as she promised not to interfere with issuing of marriage licenses to all couples. But Kim Davis rejected the offer, her attorneys later said.

The judge has been more than fair here. He's offered her a way to get out of going to jail, and she didn't take it. So to jail she goes.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 158):
If only the Kentucky legislature could do something,

What would they do? Push the responsibility for marriage certificates onto some other official rather than the clerk? Ok, let's say they decide to amend the laws so that the county executive now has the job instead of the clerk. What happens when there's a country executive who doesn't want to certify gay marriages? Do they then have another special session to find some other official post who can do it? That could go on and on ad nauseum.

Ultimately, the solution is very simple: if you swear an oath to uphold the law, uphold the law. If the law changes to the point where you can't uphold it any more, step aside and let someone else who can take your place.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 160):

And yet you're the one that keeps insisting that a law on the books is necessary for her to fully do her job when hundreds of clerks nationwide (including the dozens in Kentucky) don't need one to do so.

Laws come about because of special cases, and I consider this to be one. The speed with which the Judicial and Executive branches nullified existing laws and operations has not been matched by the legislative branch to explore and mitigate the unintended effects of such changes to those forced to negotiate delicate issues of personal values vs public service in a new light. Putting her in jail doesn't change her mind. the quick and expedient solutions would be to remove her from the function of being put in charge of that decision. She herself hasn't caught up to the new reality, and the state Legislation needs to enact their processes to properly deal with it, which includes exploring new laws that could accommodate such reservations while serving the public, or going ahead with an impeachment.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 160):
It's not her job to decide what's immoral. I find smoking to be completely unnecessary and harmful to smokers and passerbys. Should I ask the state to tell all shops to ban the sale of cigarettes and outdoor smoking?

It's perfectly within your rights to ask the state to do that. Whether they follow through depends.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 160):
She's a government official. It's the state policy that clerks issue marriage licenses. Ergo, because the government no longer has a prohibition against same sex marriage, it's not her place to refuse a license or forbid any of her deputies to issue one for her (which actually implies that she DOES have something against LGBT folks. IMO, a true Christian would hold this job but ask the deputy to issue one for them instead).

Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

This isn't about whether she is bigoted or not. It is about what process should be taken when a sweeping change occurs that has a roadblock put in place because the three branches of government and state vs federal government are not moving in lock step.

At this very moment a federal judge could sign an order to sweep in and arrest everyone in Colorado and Washington that is buying and selling Marijuana in stores , but they don't.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 160):
She was elected with the law struck down but still enforced. She swore an oath with the law struck down but still enforced.

And that law is still on the books. There are a myriad of issues here. and most of it was created by and could be solved by the Kentucky State Legislature without tossing a misguided soul into jail
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 160):
I find smoking to be completely unnecessary and harmful to smokers and passerbys. Should I ask the state to tell all shops to ban the sale of cigarettes and outdoor smoking?

Actually, you can if you want to. The right of the citizen to petition their government is fully enshrined in the Constitution.

What you cannot do, is as a government official refuse to issue a business license just because the business sells tobacco.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 157):
No, she didn't cease to be a state elected official.

You didn't say state elected official, you said state servant. I didn't say that she doesnt hold an elected office, just that she now just is a criminal holding an office.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 157):
the interpretation of the laws changed

Which is absolutely no point on her behalf. Whatever the interpretation is, she has to follow that interpretation regardless of her personal delousions or opinions. If she doesn't want to do that, she can resign. It is the most simple thing in the world.

Best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2015-09-03 14:27:20]
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 166):
Which is absolutely no point on her behalf. Whatever the interpretation is, she has to follow that interpretation regardless of her personal delousions or opinions. If she doesn't want to do that, she can resign. It is the most simple thing in the world.

It is not the most simple thing to for anyone. Especially those as delusional as you claim she is, and which I agree she appears to be. She just happens to be in a position that directly got her confronted with the problem head on.


She is currently in Jail because she doesn't see the light from within, and the Judge decided to put her there because.
1. The judge could not impeach her. The State Legislature of Kentucky could.
2. The judge could not change the laws to avoid her having the position of being in charge of the certificates in Rowan County. The State Legislature could.


The State legislature is currently not in session so the judge gets to jail her until the state legislature changes the mode in which she is allowed to serve or not. Her delusions will continue regardless, or until her fifth marriage to a wife.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 167):
The State Legislature could.

Well, it is not their job to make laws that are easier to grasp to those that refuses to follow the law, even after having it explained to them by the appropriate authority, commenly refered to as courts.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 167):
The State Legislature of Kentucky could.

They can do that when in session. They are not. She can resign any time she pleases.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 167):
She just happens to be in a position that directly got her confronted with the problem head on.

The only problem she has to face head on is something that has to happen between her and her therapist. Her problem with laws is imaginary, as the law simply seized to exist.

Best regards
Thomas
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:00 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 168):
Well, it is not their job to make laws that are easier to grasp to those that refuses to follow the law, even after having it explained to them by the appropriate authority, commenly refered to as courts.

No it is their job to protect and serve the citizens and perform actions that they have written upon themselves to perform. Such as impeachment of an elected official.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 168):
They can do that when in session. They are not. She can resign any time she pleases.

But you already said she is delusional. , and the state legislature is where the power to decide her fate rests beyond this point.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 168):
The only problem she has to face head on is something that has to happen between her and her therapist. Her problem with laws is imaginary, as the law simply seized to exist.

And this is server how by her being in Prison?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:17 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 169):
Such as impeachment of an elected official.

And they will propably do at a time of their chosing. That the legislation doesn't rush into an emergency session is hardly reason for a court to accept the ongoing violation of cititens rights by a criminal.
The clerk is in content of the court, not the state legislators.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 169):
But you already said she is delusional.

I'd be totally fine if the judge had sent her to a mental institution instead of prison.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 169):
And this is server how by her being in Prison?

The judge is kind enough to give her some solitude to think about her situation without religious fundamentalists cheering her on that much. It is the only option the court has, and off she goes.
What you are advocating is letting a thief go free, even after he tells the judge that he will just go on stealing.

Best regards
Thomas
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910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 169):
And this is server how by her being in Prison?

She isn't in prison!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 167):
The State Legislature of Kentucky could.

The Kentucky state house is controlled by the Democrats, doubtful they would vote to change the rules, even prominent Republicans are saying she should shut up, do the job she was elected to or resign. The North Carolina legislature is controlled by a bunch of wacko Republicans who's only concern is social issues likepassing a motorcycle helmet law with an anti-abortion paragraph, and taking steps to prevent citizens from voting.
 
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 116):
If she is jailed, then, the next (R) President of the Untied States, will pardon her, on Day 1.

She'd be in there a long time, then!   
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DocLightning
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 171):
She isn't in prison!

Yeah she is. Or, rather, she is imprisoned.
-Doc Lightning-

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Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:07 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
Now we get to sit around paying for someone in prison.

Not that big a deal. The fixed costs in the prison are not going to change - only the variable costs. All I can see there will be food and toilet paper. Maybe some cheap meds if she stays there month after month. Pretty cheap way to resolve the situation for those wanting a marriage license.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 171):
The Kentucky state house is controlled by the Democrats, doubtful they would vote to change the rules, even prominent Republicans are saying she should shut up, do the job she was elected to or resign.
Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 116):
If she is jailed, then, the next (R) President of the Untied States, will pardon her, on Day 1.

Just to clarify, Kim Davis is a Democrat, not a Republican.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 167):
Her delusions will continue regardless, or until her fifth marriage to a wife.

I thought about the irony that she might be jailed in a location where she is exposed to women who have a different orientation than she does, and who happen to have been toughened up while serving their time.

Quoting 910A (Reply 171):
She isn't in prison!

So where is she? A local jail so she could be rapidly returned to the courtroom if she decided to obey the court order?
 
luv2fly
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:30 pm

Does she still get paid while in the big house?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
910A
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 176):
A local jail so she could be rapidly returned to the courtroom if she decided to obey the court order?

The Carter County jail. The Feds rent space from local county facilities all over the country for pre-trial detention and court hearings to to avoid the transportation issue.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:11 am

While in prison she can commune with her Lord and receive guidance as to how long she should stay in prison to prove her points and satisfy her conscience. Me thinks the guidance she receives will tell her to issue the licenses after a few days in lockup. I always find it funny how that works.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 175):
Just to clarify, Kim Davis is a Democrat, not a Republican.

Mmmhmmm and which presidential candidates are falling over themselves to kiss her holy butt hole the fastest?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 180):
Mmmhmmm and which presidential candidates are falling over themselves to kiss her holy butt hole the fastest?

If you want to make this political, when are you guys who are demanding Davis' head going to demand the same of Obama who has routinely ignored the law on immigration, welfare reform, his own Obamacare, among other things?
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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Matt6461
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181):
If you want to make this political, when are you guys who are demanding Davis' head going to demand the same of Obama who has routinely ignored the law on immigration, welfare reform, his own Obamacare, among other things?

This analogy is so obviously wrong:

You think the things Obama did are unconstitutional, sue him in court.

Some have done exactly that, and sometimes they win.

When Obama loses, he follows the law and obeys the court. http://www.bna.com/federal-judge-enjoins-n17179923133/
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181):
If you want to make this political

LOL yes so gracious of you, who is never political. Nobody's buyin it. You can put it away. I'm beginning to think "don't make it political" is a euphemism for "I know I don't have a leg to stand on".

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 182):
You think the things Obama did are unconstitutional, sue him in court.

  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 182):
You think the things Obama did are unconstitutional, sue him in court.

...except that you can't sue a sitting President for actions taken in official duty, nor the results thereof.

The House can impeach, and the Senate can try him.

But you as a citizen can't do squat, beyond voting for Congress-members whom you believe would do the above.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ltbewr
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:11 am

Davis was in contempt of a Federal Court order. The penalties are either massive fines or jail until gives in by agreeing to issues all marriages licenses, resigns or the court realizes it is useless to detain any further (that could take months, even years). It is also very difficult to appeal from and I doubt she will win anyway. There is no option to be free on bail, if so, she would likely get many times over the bail money needed from anti-gay 'Christians' and others. Same problem with fines, likely her supporters would pay them.
As others have noted, the deputy clerk - her son - and the rest of the staff have been ordered to comply or also face jail for contempt. Her son, a deputy clerk may resist but I bet the rest of the people in the office won't want to lose their pay of benefits needed for their family or feel they have to appease their boss to keep their jobs so will process marriage license to all.
Sadly there are some Christians who believe by supporting anti-gay or anti-abortion causes, they will get a better chance to get into heaven, even if criminal means to do so. Of course many of these same people are racist, sexist, support wars against Islam, the death penalty and other 'sins' . Hopefully the jailing of Davis will make some think about such open contempt of law.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:14 am

I thought public employees were free to do or not do whatever the hell they wished... certainly felt that way the last time I was in the DMV. What's the difference here?
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Matt6461
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 164):
She herself hasn't caught up to the new reality, and the state Legislation needs to enact their processes to properly deal with it, which includes exploring new laws that could accommodate such reservations while serving the public, or going ahead with an impeachment.

I read your objection as being quite limited: that KY should accommodate her and people like her to some extent. Excuse me if you've already answered this, it's a long thread and I haven't read it all.

Would accommodations be required for the following people:

-A genuine old school Catholic who refuses to license second marriages

-A genuine Muslim who refuses to marry apostate Muslims to other Muslims?

-A conservative Jew who refuses to marry Jews to gentiles?

If accommodation is not required for the above categories, why is it required here?

I've heard your "change in the law" point. Is that all that your argument rests on? So that, hypothetically, if divorce only became legal tomorrow, we'd have to accomodate the Catholic?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 184):
...except that you can't sue a sitting President for actions taken in official duty, nor the results thereof.

I'm NOT saying you can get rid of Obama by suing him. I'm demonstrating the false equivalency of Dreadnought's analogy, which should be obvious.

It's one thing to test the constitutionality of an action. Here Obama tested the constitutionality of health care, for example, as Kim tested the constitutionality of her accommodations theory. I actually don't really begrudge her for taking that test.

Obama won mostly, lost on Medicaid expansion. To the extent he lost, he followed the court's order. He could have claimed that Jesus wants us to help the poor and Medicaid expansion would do that, so he had to follow God's law and continue doing well unto the least of us. He didn't because he's not a batshit crazy moron who doesn't understand the difference between a theocracy and a constitutional republic.

[Edited 2015-09-03 19:19:17]

[Edited 2015-09-03 19:37:24]
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20742
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 186):
I thought public employees were free to do or not do whatever the hell they wished... certainly felt that way the last time I was in the DMV. What's the difference here?

Public employees can believe whatever they wish. On their own time. If she wants to hate the gays, she is perfectly within her right to do that. When she is off the clock. There would still be a minor outcry against her, but, as long as she does her job, no one would really care much.

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 182):
When Obama loses, he follows the law and obeys the court.

Facts have no basis in right wing world when talking about Obama. He is a Muslim imposing Sharia law and forcing gun owners to give up guns and he is a communist born in Kenya and registered as a maoist socialist with an obvious marxist agenda. /sarcasm
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9908
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 186):
certainly felt that way the last time I was in the DMV. What's the difference here?

But if a qualified gay person was denied a driver's license because they were gay then there would be little difference.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4114
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 185):
Her son, a deputy clerk may resist but I bet the rest of the people in the office won't want to lose their pay of benefits needed for their family or feel they have to appease their boss to keep their jobs so will process marriage license to all.

With the exception of Kim Davis' son, the deputies declared under oath one by one they would comply with the court's order, some more reluctantly than others. Just in case, the judge warned them he didn't want to hear about "shenanigans" such as closing the office for sudden repairs, and was expecting compliance with his order as early as Friday morning.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
rwessel
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:50 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 187):
I read your objection as being quite limited: that KY should accommodate her and people like her to some extent. Excuse me if you've already answered this, it's a long thread and I haven't read it all.

Would accommodations be required for the following people:

-A genuine old school Catholic who refuses to license second marriages

-A genuine Muslim who refuses to marry apostate Muslims to other Muslims?

-A conservative Jew who refuses to marry Jews to gentiles?

If accommodation is not required for the above categories, why is it required here?

I've heard your "change in the law" point. Is that all that your argument rests on? So that, hypothetically, if divorce only became legal tomorrow, we'd have to accomodate the Catholic?

I don't think any of those are valid (nor is Davis' objection), for the simple reason that in none of those case are the individuals issuing marriage license actually being asked to "approve" of the marriage. They're certifying that the couple in question has checked the right boxes on the application and given the county their $75. No one is asking the clerk to approve of the marriage. How could the clerk? In most cases the clerk will probably not know either individual - how could they approve? And doubtless there are times when the clerk does know the parties, and "knows" that these two idiots should really not be getting married (haven't we all been to weddings where we thought that?) - again, there's no approval being sought or given here. Her signature just validates the document, it does not show any moral approval of the couple's marriage.

IOW, Davis' basic objection has no merit, since she's never been asked to do the thing she's objecting to. On that basis, I see no reason for the Kentucky legislature to do anything to "accommodate" her.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:33 am

I guess I qualify as 'a genuine old-style Catholic,' if I fit into any of the categories listed above.  

In my case there was no doubt in my mind that the main 'purpose' of getting married was that we were morally and officially 'required' by law to do our best to look after any kids that we might have. As it turned out, we had three, and I guess we 'successfully' brought up all of them.

Surely, in the case of 'same-sex marriage,' given that no kids will be involved, there need be no such requirement? So what is the point of such same-sex marriages, why are they considered necessary? Leave alone desirable?

[Edited 2015-09-04 00:45:01]
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 192):
Surely, in the case of 'same-sex marriage,' given that no kids will be involved, there need be no such requirement? So what is the point of such same-sex marriages, why are they considered necessary? Leave alone desirable?

Did you marry your wife because:
a) you got her pregnant and had to marry her to make her an honorable women again
b) you saw her in the streets, thinking "oh, her and my genes may really make some beautiful and healthy kids" and just asked her if she agrees
c) you loved her and wanted to spend the rest of your lives together

a) wasn´t all that uncommon, probably still isn´t, b) would be flat out sad and c) is a reasoning open to anyone.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 191):
Her signature just validates the document, it does not show any moral approval of the couple's marriage.

Imagine a state servant tasks with issuing concealed carry permits decides that guns violate his deeply held religious believes and just stops issuing them, or any kind of gun related permit where ever they may be required. I wonder how many of the same people that support the Kentucky lunatic would be out screaming for his head the moment they hear about it?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 190):
and was expecting compliance with his order as early as Friday morning.

So, i guess today will be one of those CNN days then.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 188):

Public employees can believe whatever they wish. On their own time. If she wants to hate the gays, she is perfectly within her right to do that. When she is off the clock.

Well, i guess she is entitled to her believes and hating gays 24/7 if she likes, but not to the point where her believes interfere with her duties. If you believe there are laws above the law of the land, aside of human rights, where the principle is basic and pretty much universally excepted, you are in no way different from any criminal out there. A religious believe doesn´t have any higher value in that matter as the firmly held believe of a car thief that there is nothing wrong with stealing cars.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 185):
There is no option to be free on bail, if so, she would likely get many times over the bail money needed from anti-gay 'Christians' and others. Same problem with fines, likely her supporters would pay them.

Well, that could be fixed by ordering the fine as payable to all the ss couples that can´t get married because of her violating their constitutional rights. That way the donations would only directly support gay marriage. Give her a month to change her mind, lets say at 1000$/day/couple, and Kentucky is going to see some awesome ssm parties paid by gay haters. Now that would be Solomon justice. But probably outside the scope of what the judge can rule in this case.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 184):

...except that you can't sue a sitting President for actions taken in official duty, nor the results thereof.

Well, being the chief executive has to have some advantage to make up for being hated by about half your citizens. There isn´t much you can do against the CEO of a company you work for either. Actually much less.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 184):
But you as a citizen can't do squat, beyond voting for Congress-members whom you believe would do the above.

You can get your rights reinstated as a citizen. Has a sitting president ever been found ignoring a court order?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181):

If you want to make this political, when are you guys who are demanding Davis' head going to demand the same of Obama who has routinely ignored the law on immigration, welfare reform, his own Obamacare, among other things?

Please list all the cases where President Obama ignored a supreme court ruling or state your reasoning why a president doesn´t have the guarantee of judicial review.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 176):

I thought about the irony that she might be jailed in a location where she is exposed to women who have a different orientation than she does, and who happen to have been toughened up while serving their time.

Maybe just long enough to have a "Oh, gays are people too" epiphany.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Ken777
Posts: 9908
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 192):
In my case there was no doubt in my mind that the main 'purpose' of getting married was that we were morally and officially 'required' by law to do our best to look after any kids that we might have. As it turned out, we had three, and I guess we 'successfully' brought up all of them.

I'm an old wayward Episcopalian buy for me the purpose of getting married was to be able to spend the rest of my life with the woman I loved and who, for some reason I still can't understand, wanted to spend her life with me. If kid cam along then that was great. Good thing as 2 came along and we became your basic middle class family.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 192):
Surely, in the case of 'same-sex marriage,' given that no kids will be involved, there need be no such requirement? So what is the point of such same-sex marriages, why are they considered necessary? Leave alone desirable?

Many same sex marriages include children. Some by a previous marriage that went south when the spouse came out of the closet and some from adoption.

Ankle biters running around the home are not, however, a requirement in marriage. Some couples are nor able to have children and are able to live their live together be the gay or straight
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14329
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:23 am

In almost everyplace in the world over the last 100-200 years, the recording of marriage has gone from the sole province of faith groups to governments. Faith groups were the only ones who had the ability or desire to record marriages, as well as do them. Now we have marriage as faith neutral, and one needs a license from the government to do so, and in the USA, one can have an official designated by the local government do the ceremony or have it done by a recognized faith minister. In some countries (France and Belgium for example) faith minister ceremonies are not recognized. I wouldn't be surprised that the next fights in Kentucky and elsewhere in the USA will be designated public officials denying to do same gender marriages and another legal and social battle break out.

The reality is that same-gender marriages are legal in the USA, that per our full faith and credit clause of the US Constitution the must be recognized by all, with some very limited exceptions, and if as a public official you don't want to do so, you have to quit your job or get someone else to do all marriage officiating.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2819
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:19 pm

It really is just sad what this lady let happen to her, and it was entirely avoidable. Her position was rife with contradiction (women in power, breaking an oath, not covering her head, etc etc etc) and there is no good way to deal with people so locked into their own heads except to take them away from the problem-causing situation. I certainly won't celebrate her incarceration, but I'm glad that *somebody* is doing the job that Rowan County taxpayers are funding. If she wasn't going to accept the court's ruling then why did she waste time and money fighting it?

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 192):
In my case there was no doubt in my mind that the main 'purpose' of getting married was that we were morally and officially 'required' by law to do our best to look after any kids that we might have. As it turned out, we had three, and I guess we 'successfully' brought up all of them.

While obviously that's your choice, that's as good (or bad) a reason to get married as any other and I've certainly seen people get married for dumber reasons. I've always thought it rather silly that people needed God's blessing to do what a mosquito does without thinking. For so many, that mindset basically highlights that their only skill is breeding (see Duggar Family, NW Arkansas) and ignores that for thousands of years before the Catholic Church sprung in (pagan) Rome marriage meant many different things.

[Edited 2015-09-04 06:27:42]
 
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Adipasquale
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:39 pm

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 192):
Surely, in the case of 'same-sex marriage,' given that no kids will be involved, there need be no such requirement? So what is the point of such same-sex marriages, why are they considered necessary? Leave alone desirable?

Saying that the point of marriage is to have children as a way to delegitimize gay marriage is way off in modern society. You are neglecting to account for heterosexual couples who either cannot or choose not to have any children. The point of marriage is not to have children, and as an extension of that, having children does not make a marriage more legitimate.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:59 pm

And as is to be expected, the right is blowing up, comparing her jailing with what the Nazis did to the Jews, how Christians are persecuted, how freedom of speech is infringed, among others.

An image was posted on Facebook which made a lot of sense:

Ask yourself if you'd be supporting a Muslim county clerk in the United States who refused to issue a marriage license to a woman who wasn't wearing a hijab. If the answer is "No", you're not fighting for religious freedom. Instead, you're a hypocrite and a bigot who is fighting for Christian privilege.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10202
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:11 pm

Irony Alert!

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...on-officials-should-uphold-the-law

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton posted a message Thursday saying that government officials should "uphold the law – end of story."

Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.

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