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rwessel
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 245):
In this case, because a county clerk is a government employee and the SoS or Governor are above her, I am wondering if they could do something to ensure she follows federal law?

She's an elected official. She can be impeached and tried by the KY legislature, and that's pretty much it. The legislature will next be in session in January. The governor can call a special session of the legislature, but he's said he isn't going to. In any event, conviction in the KY Senate will require a two-thirds vote. With 23 of the 38 senators being Republicans, the notion that she would actually be convicted and removed from office is at least a bit questionable.

I don't believe that KY has provisions for a recall election for a county clerk (which would be the alternative to the impeachment route), but if it does, it would be a months long process at best.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 249):
The governor replied that would require a change in state law from the Kentucky Congress but added that he wasn't going to be wasting state funds by calling in a special session to resolve one clerk's problem.

And it makes sense, both from a fiscal perspective (how many other KY clerks have issues with carrying out their duties?) and a political one (with a dead heat for governor, he's not gonna alter the race).
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting cerecl (Reply 214):
As has been pointed out many times, the county clerk's job is not to bless/endorse marriages, it is to certify that the two people who seek to get married have satisfied the LEGAL requirement to do so. Not only did she refuse to perform her job (which really does not clash with her belief if she actually correctly interprets what it is), she also prevents others who may or may not hold the same belief from doing their job. Further, she also refuses to vacate her position so that other people can actually step in when there is a conflict. Just how thick she has to be if she really thought this is legal/reasonable/tenable?

She is pretty thick. She is still an elected official until the Kentucky state government removes her or tries to change the laws to accommodate her. In the meantime she is just a political pawn between the Feds and state since the state of Kentucky will not be back from lunch until January.
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OA412
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 227):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 225):
Serious question, where are the real "christians" protesting this nonsense? We always expect muslims to protest every muslim terrorist/nutjob, s

Well, when Christians are evil, we don't call them christians. Period. We call them Unionists or Nationalists or such. How many times did you hear Timothy McVeigh refered to as Christian terrorist? Or how many believe Hitler was an atheist, just because they don't want to see him as a Christian?

Exactly. Not sure how many times I've seen people on this site go to great lengths to either deny Christian terrorism, deny that people like McVeigh were Christian, or to become outright apologists for such nutjobs.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 234):
Thank God Almighty, the persecution of the White Christian majority ruling this country has finally ended. Kim Davis is free!

Glory to God in the highest!

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 234):
Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz must be sorely disappointed. They were planning to visit their human prop, I mean martyr to the cause in jail this very afternoon. Yet again this judge interferes with the Christian agenda!

These poor, poor Christians. First the attacks on Christmas, now this. How ever do they survive?
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:08 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 248):
they talked about a new theater production about two men asking a Catholic priest to marry them. I'm sure the fundamentalists will enjoy it.

But that has nothing to do with legal proceedings. It is up to the law to decide if two men or two women are eligible to sign a contract. One has nothing to do with the other. Separation of church and state.
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Aesma
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 254):
But that has nothing to do with legal proceedings. It is up to the law to decide if two men or two women are eligible to sign a contract. One has nothing to do with the other. Separation of church and state.

In France that is 100% true, a religious marriage is not a real marriage and is even illegal if practiced before a civil marriage (in front of a mayor).

I was just saying that those that feel Christianity is under attack will take that production as proof of it.
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luckyone
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:58 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/09/09/deputy-clerk-will-still-issue-marriage-licenses-even-if-kim-davis-tells-him-not-to/?tid=pm_national_pop_b

At least one of her staff is stating he will continue to issue licenses regardless of Davis' objections in order to comply with the judge's order.
 
Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 215):
'Why should people in homosexual relationships enjoy any of the privileges and protections applied to man-woman marriages by the common law?'

Because it is their civil rights. Equal protection under the law is another way to look at it.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 215):
Tax advantages etc.

Traditionally there has been a "marriage penalty" for Federal Taxes in the US.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 215):
before any such thing is officially authorised

It's been authorized. At the state level in many cases and then at the Federal level by the Supreme Court.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 215):
My current feeling is that, 'seen from here,' children adopted by 'same-sex' couples would have a much-reduced chance of receiving any sort of 'normal' upbringing?

The adoption issue is an old story in many cases and there is also a strong history of children from a previous, straight marriage moving into the gay family home. Both can be very successful.

When considering the children you need to understand that about half the traditional marriages in the US end in divorce, leaving the kids in a

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 218):
she's sin free and wishes to remain that way.

Since she violated her oath office (taken with her hand on the, gulp, Bible) she has already sinned to the point that she had to be tossed in jail

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 221):
I guess the Feds can start building out their re-education camps .... if these numbers continue.

You can't re-educate bigots be they bogots in the area of race or religion.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 223):
They issued 4 marriage licensee to same sex couples last Friday, from jail Kim Davis said the marriage certificates are void because they don't have her authorization .

If she finds a way to discredit/void those licenses then the Judge will find a way to send her back to jail

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 223):
i'm bothered that as soon as she gets out of jail, she's going to make those four couples life's as miserable as her's.

That is contempt of court and it also means a return to jail. If she goes back (and she is stupid enough to be sent back) I doubt that it will be for only 5 or 6 days.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 234):
The judge warned Kim Davis she'd be back in jail pronto if she interferes with the issuance of licenses by her deputies in any way.

I have a feeling that if she does return to jail it will be for at least 30 days.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 254):
Separation of church and state.
 
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lugie
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:46 pm

The fact that they released her and the way she's being celebrated is highly disappointing.
Just keep in mind: If someone like Kim Davis gets her way with using her religious beliefs to dictate her job duties, then EVERYONE gets to do the same, right?

Therefore...

If a Quaker government employee refuses to issue a gun permit because a deadly weapon violates his religious observations of pacifism - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

If a Jewish government employee refuses to issue a permit to own a hot dog and sausage cart because pork related products violates his religious observations - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

If a Muslim government employee refuses to issue a liquor license because that would violate his religious observations - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

If a Jehovah's Witness government doctor refuses to give you a blood transfusion when you are bleeding out because it violates his religious observations - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

If a Hindu government employee refuses to give you a permit for a hamburger stand because cow products violate his religious observations - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

If an Amish government employee refuses to issue you a patent on your invention because technology violates their religious observations - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

I don't get why people can't understand why religion needs to stay OUT of politics...
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luckyone
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting lugie (Reply 258):
I don't get why people can't understand why religion needs to stay OUT of politics...

Because most people are some combination of stupid and intellectually lazy.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 218):
Ah, but here's the magic of religion (Christianity in particular): if you convert and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, your slate is wiped clean. Hence, as of now, she's sin free and wishes to remain that way.

This is a good thing.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 225):
Serious question, where are the real "christians" protesting this nonsense?

As a committed christian (and former member of the clergy), I offer these memes as proof of my disdain for her and her repugnant actions:

http://reverbpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/11951217_810854362367250_1633664091482297411_n.jpg
http://queerty-prodweb.s3.amazonaws.com/wp/docs/2015/09/11988242_10153442257941348_729843231963917186_n.jpg


Please don't judge me and my brethren based on the actions of this awful woman.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 225):
We always expect muslims to protest every muslim terrorist/nutjob, so where are the christians picking up the torch to denounce Kim Davis?

I've always found the double-standard to be stupid.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 225):
I shall blame all christians for her actions.

Please don't.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 234):
persecution of the White Christian majority

It's sickening the way that people suggest that what is happening to her is persecution. If you want to see actual religious persecution have a look at IS and Saudi Arabia etc.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 235):
If 5 days in jail already do it for her, well, I guess her faith was as song as her marriages lasted till death did part them.

  

Quoting luckyone (Reply 236):
Her sins have been completely forgiven

No need to mock this.

Quoting lugie (Reply 258):
If a Quaker government employee refuses to issue a gun permit because a deadly weapon violates his religious observations of pacifism - Then you CANNOT COMPLAIN!

That one will go down well with the religious right.  
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:30 pm

Can someone PLEASE make a gay religion so gay people can finally get the protections it deserves in the USA! It will also then be fully recognized and respected by these people that find religions must be obeyed.

I mean it is only common sense...   

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DocLightning
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 260):
No need to mock this.

Really? It's quite mock-worthy.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 261):
Can someone PLEASE make a gay religion so gay people can finally get the protections it deserves in the USA! It will also then be fully recognized and respected by these people that find religions must be obeyed.
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luckyone
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 260):

I think you misunderstood the intent of my point. I wasn't mocking forgiveness. I was mocking the self-serving attitude that some have when they equate forgiveness with entitlement.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 260):
Quoting luckyone (Reply 236):
Her sins have been completely forgiven

No need to mock this.

It's hard not to mock it when many use this excuse to feel like everything they've done is no longer relevant. Interesting that this woman can claim that she converted and had her sins forgiven, but someone who committed a murder can't claim the same thing. We can overlook divorce (which goes against Biblical teachings), children born out of wedlock (also goes against Biblical teachings), and plenty of other stuff. Gay? You're going to hell. Kill someone? Death and hell. Believe in science over creationism? Oh HELL for you!
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
D L X
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
What law, passed by the legislature, is she breaking?

The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Throwing someone in jail over not accomplishing her job is bigotry.

Straw man. She was ordered by the court to perform her sworn duties. She not only refused, she outwardly scoffed at the judge's ruling. Courts only work when their respect is commanded. The judge had no option but to punish her harshly for her subordination.

Unless you think next time you don't like a court ruling you can just ignore it.



My prediction is that she'll be back in jail by the end of the month. Either that, or she'll resign. She's going to make way more than $80k from gofundme and whatever book deal she signs anyway.

[Edited 2015-09-10 11:50:28]
 
Maverick623
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 265):
She's going to make way more than $80k from gofundme and whatever book deal she signs anyway.

She might rake in a couple hundred thousand dollars this year (but not through Gofundme, because they have already said they won't accept funds for her), but by next year she will be all but forgotten by those who claim to support her.

And then she'll realize that, just like lottery winners, the worst thing you can do is quit your job and spend all your money.
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 260):
No need to mock this.

Not only has Kim Davis been forgiven and welcomed into the Kingdom for her four marriages and two out of wedlock children, but Josh Duggar is facing the same future. Remember him? Adultery and molesting his sisters? He simply said "I prayed and God has forgiven me." Well, there you go! All is forgiven. Move on. Nothing to see here.

I wonder what would happen if two men or two women went to Kim Davis and said "we want to sign a contract. It's okay, you can let us. We prayed and God forgave us. He told us so."
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luckyone
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 267):
Josh Duggar

Shhh. Don't mention him. His family is giving thanks that somebody took the spotlight off of him.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 263):
I think you misunderstood the intent of my point. I wasn't mocking forgiveness. I was mocking the self-serving attitude that some have when they equate forgiveness with entitlement.

Oh I see. I would say though that people's feeling that they have an entitlement to pass judgement on others is wrong to begin with. Sinner or not. Judge not lest ye be judged and all that.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 264):
Interesting that this woman can claim that she converted and had her sins forgiven

Part of being forgiven is being truly sorry and repenting. The fact that after her first divorce, she went on to have two more, suggests that she hasn't repented at all.  
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 264):
Interesting that this woman can claim that she converted and had her sins forgiven, but someone who committed a murder can't claim the same thing.

The central theme of the bible is that anyone can claim forgiveness and be forgiven if they confess their sins and are truly sorry. That includes murders. Murderers however, even if forgiven by the almighty, will still have to face the earthly consequences of their actions.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 264):
We can overlook divorce (which goes against Biblical teachings

This is something that annoys me like little else when they then go on to use the bible as justification for hating on the LGBT community or preventing them from gaining equal rights.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 268):
Shhh. Don't mention him. His family is giving thanks that somebody took the spotlight off of him.

LOL.
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):

Why is this woman not in prison?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/31/politi...-licenses-supreme-court/index.html


So when government workers were illegally issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples did you ask why they weren't in prison?

The hypocracy is truly astonishing. Someone does something you agree with and its "just,". Someone does the opposite and people lose their freakin' minds.

Not a commentary on the subject matter, just the absurd reaction to this nut bags defiance after their own defiance not so long ago.

[Edited 2015-09-10 17:31:24]
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Aaron747
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 270):
So when government workers were illegally issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples did you ask why they weren't in prison?

Hopeless red herring. If you are referring to former SF mayor Gavin Newsom, he was initiating a needed legal challenge based on the equal protection clause in the California Constitution. Completely opposite to Ms. Davis, who refuses to do what equal protection guarantees. She is actively violating the Constitutional rights of citizens in her charge. Apples and oranges.
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:36 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 271):

Wrong. She is doing exactly the same thing. But the issue is how far you can stretch the rights of religion rather than marriage rights.

[Edited 2015-09-10 17:39:21]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 272):
But the issue is how far you can stretch the rights of religion rather than marriage rights.

Churches and individuals already have the right not to participate in same sex marriages. State functions are an entirely different matter, as already established by Supreme Court precedent. As a government employee, she cannot choose which government policies or regulations to officiate. And as an elected official, she is actively choosing to deny people the freedoms the Constitution guarantees. In the end, all she is doing is being a bleeping unAmerican moron.

[Edited 2015-09-10 17:53:04]
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:58 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 273):

Churches and individuals already have the right not to participate in same sex marriages. State functions are an entirely different matter. As an employee, she cannot choose which government policies or regulations to officiate. And as an elected official, she is choosing to deny people the freedoms the Constitution guarantees. All she is doing is being a bleeping unAmerican moron.

I believe what she is doing is dangerous because of the pandora's box it opens, but that doesn't mean she (well, her lawyer) isn't looking for a day in court, along with any other extremists who'd like to have their religious laws recognized differently...

[Edited 2015-09-10 17:59:37]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
D L X
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 270):
So when government workers were illegally issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples did you ask why they weren't in prison?

Had those government workers illegally issuing marriage licenses done so in the face of a court order demanding they not?


(there's your answer.)
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:25 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 275):

Doesn't matter. A law is a law. Does a judge have to order you not to run a red light?
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Aaron747
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:53 am

There was no law in California expressly permitting same sex marriage in 2004 when Mayor Newsom sought to invoke the equal protection clause of the state Constitution. So one could easily argue the law was in conflict with itself then.
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 272):
Wrong. She is doing exactly the same thing.

Wrong. One person using the law to gain equality is vastly different than one person invoking their own personal beliefs to halt equality. Tell me how those are even remotely similar.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 270):
So when government workers were illegally issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples did you ask why they weren't in prison?

Issuing certificates that aren't valid is completely different from refusing to issue certificates that are. One is a symbolic action only that ultimately means nothing, even if it's intended to spur change. The other is a denial of government service to which people are entitled - definitely not symbolic and actually harmful.

-Mir
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 277):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 278):
Quoting Mir (Reply 279):


All three of you are looking at the wrong issue.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 280):
All three of you are looking at the wrong issue.

Continue....
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 281):

I don't draw maps. You're a smart guy. Figure it out.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 278):

Wrong. One person using the law to gain equality is vastly different than one person invoking their own personal beliefs to halt equality. Tell me how those are even remotely similar.

Both are breaking the law for a cause.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
hoons90
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:35 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 280):
All three of you are looking at the wrong issue.

Actually, it appears that Mir's reply was exactly addressing this question of yours:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 270):
So when government workers were illegally issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples did you ask why they weren't in prison?

If you are thinking of a different issue, please elaborate...
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:37 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 283):
Both are breaking the law for a cause.

Yes, but they are not equivalent. There is a moral difference between seeking to gain equality and seeking to oppress it.

You are doing a classic bigot trick by attempting to falsely equate disobedience in the name of equal rights with disobedience against equal rights.

In the USA all adult citizens have equal rights under the law. "The law" includes those people whose job it is to uphold the law.

Kim Davis has a right to her religious beliefs, but she does not have a right to work as County Clerk. Couples wishing to get married do have that equal right.
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Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:43 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 283):
Both are breaking the law for a cause.

Issuing meaningless certificates is not breaking the law. It is, at worst, a waste of the government's time and/or resources.

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:10 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 282):
I don't draw maps. You're a smart guy. Figure it out.

That is not an acceptable answer. Tell me how her "morality" (and, her being married four times I use the term VERY loosely) is above the law? That onus is on you.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 283):
Both are breaking the law for a cause.

One legal, one not.

I am all for people living by their own moral code. I do not eat bacon and I give to charity. I do NOT force others to live the same. Why? That is the difference between civil law and moral code.

If you choose to give to charity, no matter what that charity is, fine. I have no problem with that. But, if you deny two consenting adults legal rights, I don't get that. We enjoy separation of church and state in this country. Constitutional law is different and has nothing to do with Biblical law.

Tell me how me signing a contract with a consenting adult of the same gender goes against Constitutional law?
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tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:16 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 283):
Both are breaking the law for a cause.

She didn´t go to prison for violating the law per se, but for still violating it after exhausting her legal options. That is the crucial difference. Plus, she violated rights of citizens as they are written down in your constitution, while issuing extra marriage licenses doesn´t.
And, with the case being decided, the clerk issuing those wasn´t violating the law, as the law was violating the constitution.

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blueflyer
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:52 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 283):
Both are breaking the law for a cause.

And yet only one went to jail. Could it be because the other chose to obey a state court's order to quit issuing same-sex licenses?

Obey a court order, don't go to jail. Disobey a court order, go to jail. What a novel concept!
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:59 am

Is there a gay couple waiting for her return to apply for their license, monday?
That should clear things up quickly!

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tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:55 am

http://abload.de/img/screenshot_2015-09-11y5s65.jpg

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ltbewr
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:51 am

As to the other employees, as much as some may disagree with issuing marriage licenses to same gender couples, they also need their good paying jobs with top benefits (especially retirement and health care) for themselves and their families. Money always breaks.

I would also like to see this debacle become a spring point for looking at the whole idea of certain government positions being elected ones, like that of a county clerk. This position, and others like County Prosecutor/Attorney, County Judges and Sheriff are often elected positions in the USA, with the winner having great power of sub-appointments of persons who support their campaigns as well as subject to political corruption and influence. Unlike generations ago, all counties have elected boards and almost always a full time paid directly elected or elected county board member appointment chosen executive. County Clerks and other such positions should not be political appointments, but be administrative professionals, chosen by well established qualifications. This would also add to the professionalism of such posts, reducing abuses like with Ms. Davis who attempted to carry out the political will of a tiny number of voters in rejecting same-gender marriage license.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 284):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 285):
Quoting Mir (Reply 286):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 287):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 289):

Since the herd mentality response reflex has clearly taken over, I'll quote myself with the hope that you'll see my point. I'm not even defending her. I'm simply pointing out what she is doing. So here we go...

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 270):
Not a commentary on the subject matter, just the absurd reaction to this nut bags defiance after their own defiance not so long ago.

And yes, the reaction to this is hilarious. It all depends on the politics of those involved. The list of issues where this goes on is endless. The entertainment value is priceless.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 272):
Wrong. She is doing exactly the same thing. But the issue is how far you can stretch the rights of religion rather than marriage rights.


Again, whats going on here isn't even about gay marriage anymore.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 274):

I believe what she is doing is dangerous because of the pandora's box it opens, but that doesn't mean she (well, her lawyer) isn't looking for a day in court, along with any other extremists who'd like to have their religious laws recognized differently...

Got it? Or are you still hung up on marriage licenses?
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scbriml
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 291):

Gotta love that bible!
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 274):
along with any other extremists who'd like to have their religious laws recognized differently...

The thing of it is: she's not being forced to put aside her beliefs. She willingly chose to be in that position. She knew that the day would come when she'd have to issue a marriage license to a gay couple. She had a choice: she could comply with the federal ruling (both the one that established SSM and the ones that ordered her to do her job) or she could step aside and allow someone else to hand out the licenses (at the very least, allow her deputies to do so).

This isn't an infringement on her religious freedom. She's not told how to believe, but religious freedom isn't us conforming to her beliefs either. Because no one is being forced to violate their "sincerely held beliefs" and because they also have a choice when it comes to doing something that WOULD force them to do so, any court challenge will fall flat on its face. At most, a judge may reassert the right of refusal as long as the office/place has someone to carry out the task at hand.

As a cashier, if you don't want to check out a customer because they bought bacon? Fine. Bring someone to check out the item for you and continue. As a priest, if you don't want to marry same sex couples, excellent. You're given the right to refuse and church is not liable for it. As a county clerk/probate judge/magistrate/government official, you don't want to provide a service to same sex couples? Excellent, but don't bar other people in your office from doing it.

Own a bakery and don't serve gay couples? That is your prerogative, but at the very least, own it: place a sign saying who you serve or do the kind thing and refer them to a bakery which will be more than happy to take their cash.

Kim Davis is not testing religious freedom: her argument is not that she doesn't have accommodations; her argument is that I can't license gay couples because Jeebus.
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hoons90
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 293):
Since the herd mentality response reflex has clearly taken over, I'll quote myself with the hope that you'll see my point. I'm not even defending her. I'm simply pointing out what she is doing. So here we go...

You were specifically pointing out the hypocrisy of the officials that issued the (symbolic) marriage licenses and questioning why they weren't prosecuted for it. All those replies you quoted directly addressed that premise, and not any other points that you made. Then, you responded by saying that those replies were looking at the wrong issue, and when you were asked to explain that statement, you posted several quotes of yours that are non sequitur.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
hoons90
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 295):
This isn't an infringement on her religious freedom. She's not told how to believe, but religious freedom isn't us conforming to her beliefs either.

Exactly.

Disallowing same-sex marriage because of your religious beliefs is like saying, "I'm on a diet, so you can't have that cookie!"
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 296):

Actually, no. It was the response of the public to those actions...

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 270):
So when government workers were illegally issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples did you ask why they weren't in prison?

The hypocracy is truly astonishing. Someone does something you agree with and its "just,". Someone does the opposite and people lose their freakin' minds.

Not a commentary on the subject matter, just the absurd reaction to this nut bags defiance after their own defiance not so long ago.

240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
hoons90
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Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 298):
Actually, no. It was the response of the public to those actions...

I think that the reaction of the public is totally justified. Wouldn't you be outraged that she is actually breaking the law (unlike Gavin Newsom) to deny someone their fundamental rights?

Her religious rights aren't being violated, because she can freely practice her religion on her own time. She is not being forced to violate her religious principles, because nobody is forcing her to get married to another person of the same sex.

Just out of curiosity, what if there was a Muslim county clerk that disallowed a marriage because the woman getting married wasn't wearing a hijab? Would you not be outraged at that?
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
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