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DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:51 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 48):
Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 47):
sorry, why don't they just fire her? why are they going for the contempt of court and jail time route?

Because they can't fire her. She's an elected official.

gawd,
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.

Hello Charles, my name is the Constitution of the United States. Nice to meet you!

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 43):
She's not free to deny Constitutional rights to her constituents in the name of her specific interpretation of her faith. That's what the court has said and that's what she's in defiance of now.

This         
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 49):


Her lastest attempt: Her lawyers filed a last-ditch appeal to the Supreme Court, asking that they grant her "asylum for her conscience."

She should bring her toothbrush on Thursday.

That predates today's news. SCOTUS rejected it yesterday, causing today's make or break situation of "issue marriage licenses or you're in contempt."
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 46):
There's no such thing as "God's Law."

God's Law may have force in the hearts of deeply religious people, but it does not override the Constitution, the Supreme Court of the clear separation of church and state.

Quoting 910A (Reply 49):
Her lastest attempt: Her lawyers filed a last-ditch appeal to the Supreme Court, asking that they grant her "asylum for her conscience."

Don't you know that the Federal Judge will be impressed with that silly effort. I understand that the lawyers for both sides will meet with the Judge on Wednesday and that is going to be a Come to Jesus meeting for her attorney. I certainly hope her lawyer isn't some born again wacko who gets silly when talking to the judge. I also hope that he can get through that broad's think skull on potential fines and jail time.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Throwing someone in jail over not accomplishing her job is bigotry

They're threatening throwing her in jail because she's openly defying a court order. In fact, three levels of court order now.

She has the option to step away and find another job. She does not have the option of just staying there, and defying a court order because she doesn't agree with it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
She should be fired and that's the end of it. R

She can't be just fired, because she wasn't hired to an at-will position.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ltbewr
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:57 pm

What if she were denying birth certificates to the children born in her county of parent(s) where are not legally here on the ground of 'religion' or personal political beliefs ? That is already happening in some counties in Texas where clerks are not recognizing certain Mexico issued ID's obtained in the USA. As a result, 100's of citizen children cannot get into schools, get legally available social welfare benefits or health care, due to illegal political or religious 'principle'.

If this woman is jailed or forced to resign her job, who would take over - her son ? I think the state AG needs to take over this clerk's office and put in people from his office to do the job until the next election or a special election can be held.
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:22 am

Is it wrong that anytime I read about a new development regarding this Kentucky twatwaffle, I immediately think of this movie scene?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:12 am

Ah christianity 2015...doing nasty things to other people in spite of your four marriages, not baking cakes because Jesus, and scamming people out of their hard earned money all in the name of your selective reading of the book you never read, all while claiming persecution. #praiseHim #blessed

Quoting mt99 (Thread starter):
Why is this woman not in prison?

  

[Edited 2015-09-01 18:17:33]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
photopilot
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting bhill (Reply 31):
will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God." The fact that
the oath has been administered shall be entered on the record of the Circuit Court.
Effective:
January 2, 1978
History:
Created 1976 (1st Extra. Sess.) Ky. Acts ch. 21, sec. 2, effective January 2,
1978"

Notice the "WITHOUT FAVOR" ..........

Notice the "So help me God". So, if you use God to swear to one thing but can't use God when that person believe in "it".

Quoting OA412 (Reply 46):
There's no such thing as "God's Law."

Then why make someone swear "so help me God" if there is no God's Law? Kinda like sucking and blowing at the same time, eh? For that matter, why is a magic man in the sky even mentioned in the original oath of office? How can an oath of office acknowledge a god yet you're prepared to throw someone under the bus for obeying their god. Doesn't make any sense.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:18 am

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/pre...bama-50-years-ago-today?int=a3d208



A different time, a different state, a different issue, but the same mentality that this woman has. Jail for her if she keeps defying our highest court.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
luckyone
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 34):

Ms. Davis is a Democrat.

What we have here is likely a woman who's led a rather sad life, who likely feels very guilty, trying to seek absolution. All the while she's being taken for a ride by a special interest group. She's going to ride this out, get a lot of sympathy and take Michelle Duggar's place on the lecture circuit and write a book. I personally feel quite sorry for her because aside from the fact that she looks like Kathy Bates' character in "Misery" she's deluded. And living in that headspace cannot be satisfying.

Interesting bit of information: "She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried." but of course none of that matters and the gays will be judged.

[Edited 2015-09-01 20:01:21]
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
I'm not a lawyer, but we are witnessing one of the great deficiencies of the English Common Law system, where a court is allowed to pass rulings that imitate law, while not actually being a law.

You're a little bit off here. In the past, states had laws prohibiting same-sex marriages. The Supreme Court found those laws to be unconstitutional, and consequently, struck them down. As a result of this decision, there is no legal distinction between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages, there is only marriage. As long as the marriage is between two consenting people 18 or older (19 in Nebraska, 21 in Mississippi, and 16 in most states with parental permission), it is the government's duty to issue a marriage license to those individuals, and in the government's eye, whether it's two women, two men or a man and a woman, there is no difference. The upshot of this is that the SC did not issue a ruling that imitates a law, but rather, found that the state laws barring same-sex marriages infringed on people's constitutional rights. The result is not a new quasi-law, but the removal of a barrier that prevented certain people from exercising a constitutional right.
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Ken777
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 60):
"She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second.

And she looks down her nose at gays?         

Just as well that the state is responsible for maintaining birth certificates instead of the county.
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 60):
"She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried."

The perfect example of a religious hypocrite who blatantly ignores part of the Bible, while at the same time, tries to force others to adhere to some of its teachings. What an enlightened individual!   
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WearyDrover
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:45 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
The job description changed

In what way?

Presumably before changes in the law she would have been required to issue licences in accordance with state law. After the change in the law she is still required to issue licences in accordance with state law. No change in job description there, only that she disappoves of a particular law. As a public official we should not be able to pick and choose which laws we observe but carry them out without fear or favour.

If she finds issuing licences to particular groups distasteful, I have no objection to her being transferred to a position cleaning the local dog pound.
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 64):
only that she disappoves of a particular law.

And I disapprove of issuing gun licenses to many people. That means I can not issue gun licences to them. I disapprove of issuing drivers licences to many people. That means I can not issue drivers licences to them.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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johnboy
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 60):
Interesting bit of information: "She gave birth to twins five months after divorcing her first husband. They were fathered by her third husband but adopted by her second. Davis worked at the clerk's office at the time of each divorce and has since remarried." but of course none of that matters and the gays will be judged.

Yikes!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
She says: "Following the death of my godly mother-in-law over four years ago, I went to church to fulfill her dying wish. There I heard a message of grace and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ."

What did the old bag die from? Embarrassment?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:04 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 54):
She does not have the option of just staying there

And yet there she is....   

I don't agree with this woman at all, and I find her stance repugnant.

Having said that, to those of you who support the President's decision to not enforce immigration law, "Man, it sucks when elected officials choose to ignore the law without any serious consequence, doesn't it?"  bigthumbsup 

[Edited 2015-09-02 02:40:20]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:42 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):

I'm gonna get a job at McDonalds and refuse to serve people I deem fat...gluttony is a sin and my "religious beliefs" will not permit me to serve them.

Your manager will take care of your problem by relegating you to salad creation or table sanitizing.

I can sue and claim that the manager is not accommodating. See the vicious circle we can get into?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 68):
I can sue and claim that the manager is not accommodating. See the vicious circle we can get into?

No, the manager would win, after firing you for cause.

I am not saying the woman is right. I am just saying that she shouldn't go to prison since her elected position has changed since she took office, and the state of Kentucky should make accommodations to circumvent her.

She is but one person that is refusing to do her job. That one person has that kind of control in a state position is a state issue. Kentucky has the power to remove her.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):
Having said that, to those of you who support the President's decision to not enforce immigration law, "Man, it sucks when elected officials choose to ignore the law without any serious consequence, doesn't it?"

Something of a non sequitur to bring up that issue, no? Presidents, Congress, the courts, doesn't matter who can't touch that one with a ten foot pole because industry gets what industry wants. As O'Reilly says whenever that issue is brought up, 'you gotta live in the real world'.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
I am not saying the woman is right.

Yet your full-throated defense of her says otherwise. Oh wait, let me guess, you have gay friends too, right?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
She is but one person that is refusing to do her job.

She is but one person who is ordering her entire office to refuse to do their jobs as well, contrary to the ruling of both a Federal District Court and the US Supreme Court. If there were a textbook definition of contempt of court, her face would be right next to it.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
I am just saying that she shouldn't go to prison since her elected position has changed since she took office, and the state of Kentucky should make accommodations to circumvent her.

This defense is the weakest I've heard. Her duties are to uphold and enforce Kentucky's constitutional law, not Biblical law. There is no time stamp on the laws she swore to uphold nor is there a clause that says "until reelected, uphold the laws as if they were always there". The only accommodation she should make is to ask the state to have someone else authorize these licenses on her behalf. If she's really sincere about her beliefs (though a woman in her 4th marriage doesn't sound sincere) she would authorize someone to sign licenses on her behalf if it conflicts with what she believes in.

This is no different than being with a bank which changes terms of agreement at will. Don't like it? Change banks. Same thing here. Don't like it? Step down.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
luckyone
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:27 pm

The real problem here is not her faith. She is free to practice whatever she wants. BUT, she's a government official, getting paid for a job she refuses to do. She is going to go down, it's just a matter of when. She is also now invoking the name of God in the service (or lack thereof) of her duties, which ironically has First Amendment violation written all over it. Like I said earlier, I feel genuinely sorry for this woman. She has placed herself between a rock and a hard place because her understanding of faith is so lacking in insight. She is unlikely to find a job that pays $80,000/year in rural Kentucky, but she won't do the job. She's actually taking the coward's way out--a real stand would be quitting the job not asking for her cake and eating it too. Part of being a professional is sucking up things you don't like. If you have never had a job that doesn't result in a conflict of interests you have either never worked or had a crappy job, that's just a reality of being an adult. In her time as clerk she has knowingly and willingly signed off on all sorts of things that could be determined to violate God's word, and the fact that she's selectively taking a stand just demonstrates WHY we have the Establishment Clause in the first place. Freedom of Religion does not mean that one gets to be coddled because of one's faith. Her "redneck" husband as he describes himself accuses the "gays" of not respecting their beliefs. Wrong Mr. Davis. I do respect your beliefs. What I do not respect is your insistence that you can impose them, legally, on someone else. If you don't agree with gay marriage, cool, don't get one and grumble all day long about the gays and their rainbows. You have that right.

Another problem I foresee is the legal help she is getting from outside the Rowan County attorneys. She's getting legal counsel from a group, and obviously I'm not an attorney, but somewhere that looks like a line being crossed--she is a government official receiving services or in other words, she's getting a personal gift or benefit for an issue that is related to her duties. Unless of course she's paying for it, which ain't cheap. Could someone who is more legally oriented shed some light onto the details of that?

[Edited 2015-09-02 07:32:21]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 71):

Yet your full-throated defense of her says otherwise

I think you are the only one with a full throat of foot. I have not defended her in this thread. You need to reread a little closer and let your bias and ignorance go out the door

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 71):

She is but one person who is ordering her entire office to refuse to do their jobs as well, contrary to the ruling of both a Federal District Court and the US Supreme Court. If there were a textbook definition of contempt of court, her face would be right next to it.

And yet she hasn't been convicted of it yet, which leaves people unable to get licenses in her county, and the state of Kentucky still responsible for providing for their citizens.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 72):
Kentucky's constitutional law

BINGO!, and Kentucky has not changed their laws, but the enforcement of those laws and their constitutionality has changed, which puts Kentucky with the responsibility for finding a valid workaround.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 72):
The only accommodation she should make is to ask the state to have someone else authorize these licenses on her behalf

Kentucky has to change it's laws to allow this.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 72):
This is no different than being with a bank which changes terms of agreement at will. Don't like it? Change banks. Same thing here. Don't like it? Step down.

Easier said than done when an 80,000 dollar a year government salary with benefits is riding on it.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 28):
One more thought here, for those advocating prison, one has to commit a felony to go to the big house, the most she would get is some county jail time.

well, if she somehow thinks god is giving her orders she has to follow, a mental institution would probably a better place. Well, treatment, she doesn't have to be locked up.

I don't see the difference between "a fluffy pink bunny told me gay marriage is bad" vs "god told me".

Best regards
Thomas
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
I have not defended her in this thread.
Noun

defense ‎(plural defenses) (American)

The action of defending or protecting from attack, danger, or injury.
Anything employed to oppose attack(s).
(team sports) A strategy and tactics employed to prevent the other team from scoring; contrasted with offense.
(team sports) The portion of a team dedicated to preventing the other team from scoring; contrasted with offense.
An argument in support or justification of something.
Government policy or (infra)structure related to the military.

Department of Defense

(obsolete) Prohibition; a prohibitory ordinance.


Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
I think the state still owes her the accommodation of repositioning her where her "beliefs" will not be challenged by performing her job.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
they hired a person that was capable of upholding the laws of Kentucky prior to a major change in law, and they haven't adequately set a process that relieves that person from performing their duties under the new laws that affect their "beleifs". The job description changed, and the state of Kentucky holds the responsibility of relieving this person from their job or the "tragedy" of having their name on this document.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
A prison sentence is a pathetic choice of punishment for something the state of Kentucky has failed to do.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
She should be allowed to serve where her rights are not infringed

Hmm...all of these look like defenses to me. And you accuse me of ignorance? Whicn one of us thought she was "hired" rather than elected? Which one of us attempted to portray her as "just one person not doing her job" as opposed to ordering her entire department not to do their jobs? Me, the ignorant one? Physician, heal thyself.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
BINGO!, and Kentucky has not changed their laws, but the enforcement of those laws and their constitutionality has changed, which puts Kentucky with the responsibility for finding a valid workaround.

They have:

Quote:
In the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, Kentucky Gov. Steven Beshear ordered all county clerks in the state to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, but Davis refused.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/09/02/justice-scalia-explains-why-kim-davis-should-issue-marriage-licenses-to-same-sex-couples-or-find-a-new-job/

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
Kentucky has to change it's laws to allow this.

No, they don't.


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 78):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/09/02/justice-scalia-explains-why-kim-davis-should-issue-marriage-licenses-to-same-sex-couples-or-find-a-new-job/

Executive still leaves everything open to legal challenges until the legislation changes

Quoting Tugger (Reply 78):
No, they don't.

Yes they do, because we get to watch months and years of court appeals and lawsuits without it.

Remember we are here, because like all lawsuits, it takes people openly challenging laws or the interpretations of it.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 79):
No, they don't.

Yes they do, because we get to watch months and years of court appeals and lawsuits without it.

Remember we are here, because like all lawsuits, it takes people openly challenging laws or the interpretations of it.

It was noted in the thread above, there is a process in place already for situations where the clerk is unable to issue a marriage license:

Quoting bhill (Reply 31):
"402.240 County judge/executive to issue license in absence of clerk.
In the absence of the county clerk, or during a vacancy in the office, the county
judge/executive may issue the license and, in so doing, he shall perform the duties and
incur all the responsibilities of the clerk. The county judge/executive shall return a
memorandum thereof to the clerk, and the memorandum shall be recorded as if the
license had been issued by the clerk.

I think honestly the couples seeking a license should go a a judge and invoke this statute.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:11 pm

And with this:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 79):
Executive still leaves everything open to legal challenges until the legislation changes

I will ask the question I asked Dreadnought above and still remains unanswered:

Quoting Tugger (Reply 27):
Just curious as to your reasoning. It appears to me you are asserting that a ruling by itself does not create a form of authority that must be followed/honored. I.e. if it is not a law passed by a legislature, even if a ruling has been made by a court, that one does not have to obey the ruling because it is not a "legislated law". Wouldn't that create a situation then where all states and legislatures would need to do is to simply NOT PASS a law and therefore they don't have to follow the ruling?


And I will add that any law passed is also open to legal challenges. Whether the challenges are valid or not, and this happens all the time. So the fact that something may be open to legal challenge is moot for use as reasoning in this case (I think).

Tugg

[Edited 2015-09-02 08:13:29]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 80):

It was noted in the thread above, there is a process in place already for situations where the clerk is unable to issue a marriage license:

She is going to take exception with that last line

Quoting Tugger (Reply 80):
The county judge/executive shall return a
memorandum thereof to the clerk, and the memorandum shall be recorded as if the
license had been issued by the clerk.

Remember she doesn't want anything associated with her name.
This is where Kentucky has to fix it's problems.

Kentucky has the ability to fix this, and that is what I am asserting. Her religious beliefs, while not coherent to most, are hers. Kentucky needs to find a way to circumvent her religious beliefs so as to allow for the citizens to get what they want, a marriage license.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 82):
She is going to take exception with that last line

How? She is unable to issue a license that is required by the state and is allowed by the state. She has no choice, the judge can do it in her name. And he does not need her permission as she is "unable" to issue it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 82):
Kentucky has the ability to fix this, and that is what I am asserting. Her religious beliefs, while not coherent to most, are hers. Kentucky needs to find a way to circumvent her religious beliefs so as to allow for the citizens to get what they want, a marriage license.

Again:

Quoting Tugger (Reply 81):
It appears to me you are asserting that a ruling by itself does not create a form of authority that must be followed/honored. I.e. if it is not a law passed by a legislature, even if a ruling has been made by a court, that one does not have to obey the ruling because it is not a "legislated law". Wouldn't that create a situation then where all states and legislatures would need to do is to simply NOT PASS a law and therefore they don't have to follow the ruling?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 83):
How? She is unable to issue a license that is required by the state and is allowed by the state. She has no choice, the judge can do it in her name. And he does not need her permission as she is "unable" to issue it.

She can sue under her religious convictions which leads us down very bad legal roads ., which are resolved by simple legislative fixes that Kentucky can provide

Quoting Tugger (Reply 84):

Tugg

I am not arguing that. I am arguing that without the legal statutes, long legal proceedings will take place.
Do you remember "Brown vs the Board of Education"?


Let me refresh.

The decision was handed down on May 17,1954.

In the fall of 1963 we still had Alabama Governor Wallace standing in front of the University of Alabama, facing off with the National Guard over the admittance of 2 black students.
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 85):
She can sue under her religious convictions which leads us down very bad legal roads ., which are resolved by simple legislative fixes that Kentucky can provide

But again, what if a law is not to be "easily passed"? And I also say: Great! Let her sue. At least the couples will have their license and not themselves be the ones forced to go to court and bear the costs and the wait. Let her have to do that.

She has stated quite clearly that she cannot do her job, so apparently a judge can step in and issue a license (in her name, even better) and let the marriages proceed.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 85):
I am not arguing that. I am arguing that without the legal statutes, long legal proceedings will take place. Do you remember "Brown vs the Board of Education"?

Yes, while I don't personally remember the case    I remember learning about it in school.   And regardless that is what is going to happen with this Supreme Court decision anyway (it is, as you can see here). So to me that means you don't need to try to avoid it because even if you do those attempts to avoid legal challenge will be met with... you guessed it: Challenges! Whether in court or in the legislature or in the court of public opinion. So regardless the job still needs to be done, licenses still needs to be issued.

And I honestly would rather have the people throwing up the roadblocks needing to go to court than make the couples seeking a marriage license have to do it and delaying their license and marriage (and benefits etc)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 86):
But again, what if a law is not to be "easily passed"? And I also say: Great! Let her sue. At least the couples will have their license and not themselves be the ones forced to go to court and bear the costs and the wait. Let her have to do that.

She has stated quite clearly that she cannot do her job, so apparently a judge can step in and issue a license (in her name, even better) and let the marriages proceed.

Long legal proceeding are paved by A holes. The judge could, but that would take a Kentucky jurisdiction to do so, and still doesn't fixed the legal loopholes quite as elegantly as NC did. Eventually the law would hopefully not ever need to be invoked if concerned citizens cared enough to elect officials that do their jobs outside of their own personal beliefs, but this is the legal system,

Quoting Tugger (Reply 86):
. So regardless the job still needs to be done, licenses still needs to be issued.

Exactly, and this is where the State of Kentucky can fix a lot of problems really quickly as NC did.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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seb146
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:10 pm

First of all, the official title for Kentucky is "commonwealth" and not "state" but that is neither here nor there.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
the manager would win, after firing you for cause.

And you could turn around and sue him for discrimination. Thus the vicious circle begins...

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 71):
Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
I am not saying the woman is right.

Yet your full-throated defense of her says otherwise.

It does not sound like Cas is defending her but, rather, saying that jail is very harsh and that she should be moved to a job where she can work but not use her religion as a defense to not do her job. She should be removed from her position because she is not willing to perform the duties set forth by the governor, her boss.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Mir
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):
Having said that, to those of you who support the President's decision to not enforce immigration law, "Man, it sucks when elected officials choose to ignore the law without any serious consequence, doesn't it?"

Apples and oranges. There's no prosecutorial discretion when it comes to marriage certificates.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
Easier said than done when an 80,000 dollar a year government salary with benefits is riding on it.

If her beliefs are that strong, it should be a very easy decision indeed.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 82):
Kentucky needs to find a way to circumvent her religious beliefs so as to allow for the citizens to get what they want, a marriage license.

Or just get her out of office and replace her with someone who will do her job.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 85):
She can sue under her religious convictions which leads us down very bad legal roads

She basically already has sued on those grounds, and it hasn't gone anywhere. I'm not particularly concerned about her trying again.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 74):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 72):
Kentucky's constitutional law

BINGO!, and Kentucky has not changed their laws, but the enforcement of those laws and their constitutionality has changed, which puts Kentucky with the responsibility for finding a valid workaround.

The law has indeed changed. She has to issue marriage licenses. Kentucky's constitution read as follows when she took office:

Section 233A of the Kentucky Constitution:
Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized.

Kentucky Revised Statutes
Section 402.005 Definition of marriage.
As used and recognized in the law of the Commonwealth, "marriage" refers only to the civil status, condition, or relation of one (1) man and one (1) woman united in law for life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex.

Section 402.020 Other prohibited marriages.
(1) Marriage is prohibited and void: (d) Between members of the same sex;

Section 402.040 Marriage in another state
(1) If any resident of this state marries in another state, the marriage shall be valid here if valid in the state where solemnized, unless the marriage is against Kentucky public policy.
(2) A marriage between members of the same sex is against Kentucky public policy and shall be subject to the prohibitions established in KRS 402.045.

Section 402.045 Same-sex marriage in another jurisdiction void and unenforceable.
(1) A marriage between members of the same sex which occurs in another jurisdiction shall be void in Kentucky.
(2) Any rights granted by virtue of the marriage, or its termination, shall be unenforceable in Kentucky courts.


Then Obergefell v. Hodges was done: the SCOTUS said this language is unconstitutional. The judgment of the 6th circuit was reversed. Gov. Beshear instructed all counties to comply with the ruling that forbid states from denying licenses to same sex couples.

Now, section 233A is no more and the statutes are no more, by order of the SCOTUS, and the 6th, and the district judge, and government officials.

You're employing a delay tactic like Bobby Jindal did in Louisiana: once the SCOTUS issued the ruling, he wanted the 5th circuit to rule. The 5th circuit ruled, but he wanted a district judge to rule on it. The district judge who upheld LA's law quickly reversed his ruling, leaving Jindal with no further options, and he still delayed before giving in.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DLFREEBIRD
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):
Having said that, to those of you who support the President's decision to not enforce immigration law, "Man, it sucks when elected officials choose to ignore the law without any serious consequence, doesn't it?"   

you don't know what your talking about, Bush was the first president who told our government employee's not to separate families and to concentrate on deporting criminals. Obama said the same thing when he became president.


only government workers refused to listen to him, and deported as many people as they could. That led to a significant jump in deportations under Obama. Measured by the monthly frequency of deportation, Obama’s numbers are significantly higher than Bush’s were, even as the estimated population of illegal immigrants was falling.

and now back to the topic at hand.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):
Having said that, to those of you who support the President's decision to not enforce immigration law,
In that administration that's deported more illegal immigrants than any other? Hmmm   
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 89):
Or just get her out of office and replace her with someone who will do her job.

Legal status , long line of lawsuits

Quoting Mir (Reply 89):

She basically already has sued on those grounds, and it hasn't gone anywhere. I'm not particularly concerned about her trying again.

You forget that she has hired Christian Defense fund lawyers with an agenda. We are far from done.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 90):
Then Obergefell v. Hodges was done: the SCOTUS said this language is unconstitutional. The judgment of the 6th circuit was reversed. Gov. Beshear instructed all counties to comply with the ruling that forbid states from denying licenses to same sex couples.

Now, section 233A is no more and the statutes are no more, by order of the SCOTUS, and the 6th, and the district judge, and government officials.

You're employing a delay tactic like Bobby Jindal did in Louisiana: once the SCOTUS issued the ruling, he wanted the 5th circuit to rule. The 5th circuit ruled, but he wanted a district judge to rule on it. The district judge who upheld LA's law quickly reversed his ruling, leaving Jindal with no further options, and he still delayed before giving in.

you are mistaking the executive branches enforcement and interpretation with the legislative branches requirements to change the law.

She is challenging that enforcement with long legal proceedings.

The State of Kentucky needs to change the constitution and laws, because the constitution and laws are still on the books that she swore to in her mind. Remember we are dealing with someone that's definition of rational enforcement is not what we think it should be. Kentucky has a simple fix to change the laws and allow the citizens not to have to deal with her, and to keep her separated from the process.

It is probably a law that will need find diminishing use in the future, but it helps bypass the stalwart folks that have these stalwart religious beliefs even after 4 marriages.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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ER757
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 73):
BUT, she's a government official, getting paid for a job she refuses to do.

And there's the crux of the issue.
Simplest solution - tell her "you aren't performing your job, therefore we cannot pay you. You are free to come in to work for free very day until you begin to perform the duties for which you were elected."
If only that could be done - instead we have this collosal waste of taxpayer dollars and a big ordeal.
 
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:38 pm

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11947664_10153646698809255_6325213450037414338_n.jpg?oh=bae3dc2b21b9fa2ad564d42fcf7cc388&oe=566A67AF
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 93):
The State of Kentucky needs to change the constitution and laws,

You do realize what you are advocating is what many also were when they were saying the Supreme Court should not be ruling on the issue. Their claim was that the law should be changed and the courts should just overturn existing law.

I know there are differences in your argument but the net result appears the same.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 96):

You do realize what you are advocating is what many also were when they were saying the Supreme Court should not be ruling on the issue. Their claim was that the law should be changed and the courts should just overturn existing law.

I know there are differences

The problem here is not about the legality of gay marriages. It is her refusal to perform them in a job that was created under state laws ,where she swore an oath on a constitution that has been ruled judicially as unenforceable, but there is no quick access framework for the citizens to bypass her inability to adapt to the changing rules.
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 97):
The problem here is not about the legality of gay marriages. It is her refusal to perform them in a job that was created under state laws ,where she swore an oath on a constitution that has been ruled judicially as unenforceable, but there is no quick access framework for the citizens to bypass her inability to adapt to the changing rules.

Hmmm, OK. I understand now what you are saying. I had misinterpreted some of it. Thanks.

However with that said, I still do think there is legislation, the statue noted earlier, that fully covers her inability to do her job. So I think Kentucky has already addressed this issue. That "her name" is associated with the license should not be an issue as that is just a fact and aspect of the job and not her personal self. The job requires her name to be associated with any number of situations that she would likely find unconscionable and against her religious values and that does not matter nor have any force for a court case to be pressed.

And I really prefer to have her having to press a court case rather than delay the (want to be) happy couples.

So I do respect your opinion and point but I also do disagree.   

I feel for anyone in this situation. (Even her, she is just nuts in my opinion but also trapped by her own beliefs and thoughts and self-conjured demons. Sad.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 98):
However with that said, I still do think there is legislation, the statue noted earlier, that fully covers her inability to do her job. So I think Kentucky has already addressed this issue. That "her name" is associated with the license should not be an issue as that is just a fact and aspect of the job and not her personal self. The job requires her name to be associated with any number of situations that she would likely find unconscionable and against her religious values and that does not matter nor have any force for a court case to be pressed.

The fact that she is still in charge of that office, and Kentucky has done nothing about it says otherwise.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 98):
I feel for anyone in this situation. (Even her, she is just nuts in my opinion but also trapped by her own beliefs and thoughts and self-conjured demons. Sad.)

She is sad, and the situation is unfortunate. It highlights that even the best intentions in laws can be hindered by people looking out for their own self interests
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Tugger
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RE: Issuing Same Sex Marriage Licenses And Religion

Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 99):
laws can be hindered by people looking out for their own self interests

On that, we both agree.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
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