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OA260
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Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:31 pm

News channels reporting that Germany is bringing back border controls with Austria as it struggles to cope with the migrant crisis.

This was bound to happen sooner or later .
 
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OA260
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:47 pm

Refugee crisis: Germany 'set to close borders and suspend Schengen'

Emergency measures also include sending extra police to Bavaria and allowing entry to Germany only with a valid passport, say reports

Germany is to reintroduce border controls and will exit temporarily from the Schengen system, according to media reports, after the country’s regions said they could no longer cope with the overwhelming number of refugees arriving from Austria.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-exit-schengen-emergency-measures
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:48 pm

Just get rid of the Schengen completely, it will be an utter failure as long as EU's outer borders aren't protected properly.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Hywel
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:19 pm

Last week their Finance Minister said they could take 500,000 refugees per year for the foreseeable future. Are we seeing the first cracks in policy? You invited them but now you cannot cope, hate to say it but "I told you so!"
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:06 pm

They will just cross through the woods and fields...
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TheSonntag
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
Just get rid of the Schengen completely, it will be an utter failure as long as EU's outer borders aren't protected properly.

So that all those right wing ppl like you prevail. No thanks.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 5):
So that all those right wing ppl like you prevail. No thanks.

I'm not a right wing person, I'm a rather liberal leftist who just doesn't like "progressive" nonsense and doesn't hate healthy sense of nationalism. A part of the right wing wants to fill Europe with cheap labour to increase unemployment and bring salaries even lower, and the naive leftists do gooder idealists co-operate because they think filling Europe with refugees will create a perfect multicultural society.

I want European democracies and welfare states to last. I also believe that decision makers should be as close to the people as possible, Brussels eurocrats making decisions that affect Finnish people is as far from democracy as you can get.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:24 pm

Freaking wonderful, Germany instigated this entire mess when Merkel had a brain fart inviting all these people to come and now her govt has chickened out and is shutting the doors, what a mess, now what? Next thing we'll find out there's been a coup and Merkel has been given the boot (crossed fingers and hoping).

Quote:

Germany reinstates border controls with Austria

According to a report from Germany's Bild newspaper on Sunday, the German government is about to effectively suspend the Schengen agreement by reinstating controls at its borders with Austria.

The paper reports that the German interior minister intends to make a statement on Sunday, explaining that a temporary introduction of border controls is necessary to stem the massive influx of refugees trying to cross from Austria. A similar move to suspend unrestricted movement was also announced by the Czech Republic on Sunday.

Independently, Austrian railways said that they are suspending all trains to Germany at the request of the German railway company. The suspension is expected to last for 12 hours.

The move comes in the wake of calls for help from federal police in the German state of Bavaria, which represents one of the first German transit points for the arrival of refugees from Syria and other countries.

Gradual return

German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere made a statement on the refugee situation late on Sunday afternoon. The decision was made in a telephone conversation between German Chancellor Angela Merkel and her Austrian counterpart Werner Faymann, when the two leaders spoke about a "gradual return" to regular border controls, Austrian news agency APA reported, quoting a spokeswoman at Faymann's office.

The change would be carried out in a manner to avoid any "chaotic situation" at the border, she added.

According to Austrian police, more than 6,000 refugees entered Austria since midnight, with numbers for the day expected to exceed 10,000. Most of the refugees plan to move on to Germany or Sweden, according to police reports.

Destination of choice

Passport checks had been abolished for countries within Europe's Schengen zone, but the decision to bring back controls was announced by Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere at a press conference on Sunday evening, several German media reports said.

Germany has become the destination of choice for migrants, particularly Syrians, after Chancellor Angela Merkel relaxed asylum rules for citizens of the war-torn country.

But with 450,000 migrants arriving since the beginning of the year, infrastructure in Germany is being stretched to the limit.

By reinstating controls, Berlin is seeking to buy time to cope with the influx, according to news magazine the Spiegel.

Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt had issued a statement earlier Sunday saying that "effective measures are necessary now to stop the influx".

"That includes help for countries from where refugees are fleeing and also includes an effective control of our own borders which also no longer works given the EU's complete failure to protect its external borders," he said.

'Germany has reached its limit'

Germany's transport minister on Sunday said that Germany has 'reached its limit,' as he called for measures to halt a record migrant influx that has seen the infrastructure of the southern city of Munich buckling.

Dobrindt, who is a member of the Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Bavarian allies CSU, warned that the country "has reached its limit of capacity", a day after 12,200 more refugees reached Munich -- a key arrival point.

Police warned on Sunday that Munich is at the limit of its capacity to welcome refugees arriving en masse.

"We had a total of 12,200 refugees on Saturday... today we're expecting several hundreds. Given the numbers from yesterday, it is very clear that we have reached the upper limit of our capacity," said a police spokesman.

"Our aim today would be to transport as many as possible out of here, to make place for new arrivals," he said.

'Humanitarian disaster'

Munich has become a key arrivals point for refugees travelling to Germany by train through Hungary and Austria.

Last weekend, about 20,000 migrants arrived at the city's main railway station.

The president of the Upper Bavaria region, Christoph Hillenbrand said he did not know "how we can cope", according to the Bild am Sonntag tabloid which headlined its article "Munich at the brink of collapse".

Bavarian public television BR said the city "came very close to a humanitarian disaster", although authorities managed to limit the numbers of people sleeping on mattresses on the floor to just a few dozens, rather than the hundreds as earlier feared.

'Catastrophic consequences'

Authorities are mulling whether to open up the Olympiahalle -- a stadium used for the 1972 Olympics and which today serves as a concert hall or sports arena -- as a temporary shelter for the refugees.

As Germany buckles under the strain of the record refugee influx expected to reach 800,000 this year, dissenting voices from the CSU have grown louder.

Dobrindt's statement came just days after CSU vice president Hans-Peter Friedrich called Merkel's decision "an unprecedented political error" that would have "catastrophic consequences".

Border Czechs

The Czech Republic said Sunday it will boost controls on its border with Austria over the refugee crisis, following a similar move by Germany.

"The Czech Republic is boosting measures on its border with Austria. Further steps will be determined according to the number of refugees heading to the Czech Republic," Interior Minister Milan Chovanec told public Czech Television.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):

Here east of you Swedes are giving refugees free train passage to Finland, just today around 500 asylum seekers have crossed our northern border with Sweden.

Interesting times ahead indeed, who knows what will come out of this madness. Our state church has been been very welcoming to these refugees, they have also assisted in a project to build the very first proper mosque to our capital. For all I care they could just convert all Finnish churches to refugee centers or mosques, this protestant Lutheranism invented by that anti-semitic German clown must be the most boring branch of Christianity in existence. No tradition and fancy art like in Catholic and Orthodox churches

If I ever lose my mind and start believing in a god I definitely won't choose the Lutheran church, which hopefully will be more or less dead in a couple of decades.

[Edited 2015-09-13 11:48:43]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:47 pm

It's a first, much-needed step in the right direction. It will definitely slow things down and hopefully deter some invaders from trying to enter the country. Aside from that, crime that been flowing freely will also be reduced by some degree. The next measure must be to close all borders to our eastern neighbors. I have heard on TV that some migrants have said they will try to bypass the border control or protest in front of it. I have only one thing to say: Give them the choice to go home at their own will, or by force of arms. My patience is exhausted.
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 9):

It's a first, much-needed step in the right direction. It will definitely slow things down and hopefully deter some invaders from trying to enter the country. Aside from that, crime that been flowing freely will also be reduced by some degree. The next measure must be to close all borders to our eastern neighbors. I have heard on TV that some migrants have said they will try to bypass the border control or protest in front of it. I have only one thing to say: Give them the choice to go home at their own will, or by force of arms. My patience is exhausted.

If we had any leadership, NATO would, using southern Turkey as a base (since Turkey is a part of NATO) push into northern Syria, perhaps north of Aleppo, put a solid 50 mile or so perimeter within Syria defended by NATO troops, and declare it a refugee safe haven for all Syrians, and allow the UNHCR and other aid agencies to do their work under NATO protection. And of course, all Syrian refugees already in Europe should be sent back there.

But of course we do not have such leadership so such a common sense solution will not happen.
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LSZH34
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:20 pm

Munich is overran, people now have to sleep on the streets, border control reinstalled in Germany. Wait, who said Germany can handle this immigration? One single week and they are already in panic mode. Well done Merkel!
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 11):
Well done Merkel!

Everything that's wrong with this country:



By now Merkel should face a no-confidence vote and be tried for high treason. This may only be the beginning; if diplomacy and the measures we have in place right now do not prove effective, we will need our troops at the border, and possibly inside the country.

[Edited 2015-09-13 13:32:37]
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
f we had any leadership, NATO would, using southern Turkey as a base (since Turkey is a part of NATO) push into northern Syria, perhaps north of Aleppo, put a solid 50 mile or so perimeter within Syria defended by NATO troops, and declare it a refugee safe haven for all Syrians, and allow the UNHCR and other aid agencies to do their work under NATO protection. And of course, all Syrian refugees already in Europe should be sent back there.

So many problems with this idea.

1) Troops. How many required to defend a 50-mile perimeter? I'm not a general, but if the need was 2000 troops per mile, that would be 100,000 just on the border of this perimeter. Plus another large group to maintain airfields, logistics, etc. Almost all of these troops would be from the US, since most NATO countries barely have meaningful deployable armies anymore.

2) Logistics. Afghanistan was a logistics nightmare. An occupation of Syria would have a friendly country next door, but it would still be difficult and expensive to keep a large army supplied in the field. Moreover, the supplies need would be extremely vast. We didn't have to feed all the Afghans. In a refugee safe zone, much of the food and other supplies would have to come from the outside.

3) Exit strategy. Critically important, but rarely fully thought out. Assad isn't just going to roll over and die. ISIS would just exist outside the security perimeter. Unless you want to go fight ISIS across the country, on its terrain and territory. Not a good plan.

4) Cost. Hundreds of billions, at a minimum. War cost estimates haven't exactly been accurate recently. I'll set the over/under at a trillion. I think resettling the refugees would be less expensive.

5) Geopolitics. Turkey won't be keen on having a full scale war break out on its border. The Turks will have to clean up the mess once everyone else pulls out. Turkey can't pull out. Then you have all of the ongoing Middle East problems that are not going to get better magically.

6) Casualties. I'll just leave that here.
 
Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 3):
Last week their Finance Minister said they could take 500,000 refugees per year for the foreseeable future. Are we seeing the first cracks in policy?

How is that supposed to be in contradiction with each other? Of course we can take 500,000 refugees per year. In recent days we had 20,000 arrivals per day. Take that times 365 and you arrive at more than 7 millions. That's impossible.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 3):
You invited them but now you cannot cope, hate to say it but "I told you so!"
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
Merkel had a brain fart inviting all these people to come

Where's this myth coming from I wonder. No-one in Germany "invited" refugees. The region is thoroughly destabilized (not least thanks to our American friends) and now they're at our doorstep. There really isn't much we can do.

What would truly help is an all-European solution. Make refugees realize that they can't stay forever. Make them realize that they can't settle in Europe permanently, and that they can't choose their host country. Then divide them fair and square among ALL 28 EU member states. That would really help the situation tremendously.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 9):
It's a first, much-needed step in the right direction. It will definitely slow things down and hopefully deter some invaders from trying to enter the country. Aside from that, crime that been flowing freely will also be reduced by some degree. The next measure must be to close all borders to our eastern neighbors. I have heard on TV that some migrants have said they will try to bypass the border control or protest in front of it. I have only one thing to say: Give them the choice to go home at their own will, or by force of arms. My patience is exhausted.

And here we go. The return of the Concentration Camp everyone.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
What would truly help is an all-European solution

How about an all Arabic solution? They do seem to be mostly Muslim as far as I can tell. After all Christians are not too well liked in the Muslim world as far as I know or have read mostly. Is one of the pillars of Islam charity? I maybe incorrect, especially with this debacle. Did this just start last week, or had Europe been sleeping? I mean these people have traveled all this way undetected? I find that hard to believe. An invasion is usually contested, not welcomed as is happening there. Americas fault? I don't know about that. Are not most of these Syrians running from ISIS ? Did we start the civil war, or the Arab Spring? By the looks of the fence, Hungary knew they were coming and tried to prepare.

[Edited 2015-09-13 15:07:39]
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Braybuddy
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:27 pm

Maybe some German members could give us some idea what exactly is going on here. Germans have a reputation for being organised, and loving "ordnung", yet what we've been seeing the last couple of weeks is the complete opposite: it is nothing but absolute chaos.

What was Angela Merkel thinking when she gave the green light to every refugee and economic migrant? The word went out that Germany was throwing open its borders. Could she not see this was complete madness?
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:00 pm

The fundamental problem here has been the EU's spectacular failure to secure their own borders. Schengen works fine as long as there isn't a mass of people waltzing into the zone.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
If we had any leadership, NATO would, using southern Turkey as a base (since Turkey is a part of NATO) push into northern Syria, perhaps north of Aleppo, put a solid 50 mile or so perimeter within Syria defended by NATO troops, and declare it a refugee safe haven for all Syrians, and allow the UNHCR and other aid agencies to do their work under NATO protection. And of course, all Syrian refugees already in Europe should be sent back there.

Who's "we"? Who lacks leadership? The EU with their migrant crisis?

More importantly -- who's going to pay for this? And who's going to justify such a brazen violation of statal sovereignty? NATO is a defensive force, not an offensive one.

I can be fairly hawkish, but this plan seems to be riddled with holes.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 13):
So many problems with this idea.

  

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 9):
Give them the choice to go home at their own will, or by force of arms.

Let's just have them all shot, shall we?

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
What would truly help is an all-European solution. Make refugees realize that they can't stay forever. Make them realize that they can't settle in Europe permanently,

Indeed.
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Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
How about an all Arabic solution? They do seem to be mostly Muslim as far as I can tell.

Yeah.. fat chance of that happening. We can lament all day about how unhelpful the Gulf states are, and how it's all the fault of Arab regimes. That doesn't stop a single refugee from coming here.

And before we're unduly harsh on Muslim countries, let's not forget that Turkey has taken millions of refugees, and that Lebanon, a tiny and poor country, has born the brunt of the Syrian exodus. And I haven't heard much complaining from them.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
Americas fault? I don't know about that? Are not most of these Syrians running from ISIS ? Did we start the civil war, or the Arab Spring?

ISIS is immediately responsible. But the misguided and destabilizing policy of some Western powers, led by the US, have created the environment which enabled ISIS to thrive. The war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq have brought about power vacuums and a general animosity towards the West, which were then filled by radical Jihadism. I'm not pointing fingers; if Mrs Merkel had been in office already in 2003, Germany would have marched on Iraq along with the US and the UK. It was a historical coincidence that we weren't part of this tremendous mistake. But the fact remains. With a less short-sighted and less violent Middle East strategy, we could have prevented much of what triggers the waves of refugees today.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 16):
What was Angela Merkel thinking when she gave the green light to every refugee and economic migrant? The word went out that Germany was throwing open its borders. Could she not see this was complete madness?

Where's this idea coming from? Is that what has been reported in the international media? Because she certainly didn't "green light every refugee" and certainly not to "every economic migrant", seeing that economic migrants have no claim to asylum in Germany at all, and never did. All that happened was that the hardship on the refugees in Hungary grew so large that as an exception, Germany said "seeing that you can't handle the situation and fail to register the refugees as you're supposed to, just this once send them on, they'll end up here anyway". That's it. There was no green light and no "open arms policy" - in fact quite the opposite.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 16):
What was Angela Merkel thinking when she gave the green light to every refugee

She was thinking long-term with an eye on the British economy, unlike most people.

Young, educated immigrants is exactly what the German economy needs. Its workforce is shrinking, its unfunded retirement liabilities growing, it's already having difficulties filling some skilled trade positions.

They may not look like much right now, but these refugees aren't all laborers and trench diggers near retirement. Most working age adults are educated at least as well as the average European. Germany will spend a fortune resettling and integrating them, educating their children and training their young adults, but within five to six years, these migrants will have a positive impact on the German economy.

That's what Angela Merkel is thinking. Why? Because that's what made the British economy what it is. The demagogues at UKIP can't bring themselves to admit it, but the British economy is fueled by young immigrants from countries in and out of Europe.

The alternative is to close the borders and hope the problems caused by a shrinking workforce will just go away. That's what Japan did. Some, even on a.net, argue we shouldn't do anything because, maybe, possibly, perhaps, automation might save us. That's what Japan did.

When I compare the economies of Japan and the UK, it's a no-brainer. I take people over robots any day of the week. That's what Angela Merkel did.

(after the Greek crisis, I would never have thought I'd actually be defending her... this is unexpected)

[Edited 2015-09-13 15:28:56]
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 18):
Where's this idea coming from?

Some of the things she has been saying lately, a few of which you can read on here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34173720

Chancellor Angela Merkel has said the "breathtaking" flow of migrants into Germany will "occupy and change" the country in the coming years. She said Germany would speed up asylum procedures and build extra housing, but called on other EU states to help.

Mrs Merkel thanked volunteers who had helped and welcomed those arriving, saying they had "painted a picture of Germany which can make us proud of our country".

However, she said that although Germany was "a country willing to take people in", it was "time for the European Union to pull its weight"

Mrs Merkel has become a hero to many migrants for allowing large numbers to cross into the country from Hungary. But the Bavarian Christian Social Union, a sister party to Mrs Merkel's Christian Democrats, have accused the chancellor of sending a "totally wrong signal".


These are just some of the comments reported internationally. While she was no doubt referring to refugees, this was seen as a golden opportunity for every economic migrant, given that there are no controls or checks in place. I have been reading of transit points in Serbia and Greece littered with identity documents. Suddenly everyone wants to be Syrian, and with no documents they are not being sent back.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 18):
ISIS is immediately responsible. But the misguided and destabilizing policy of some Western powers, led by the US, have created the environment which enabled ISIS to thrive. The war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq have brought about power vacuums and a general animosity towards the West, which were then filled by radical Jihadism. I'm not pointing fingers; if Mrs Merkel had been in office already in 2003, Germany would have marched on Iraq along with the US and the UK. It was a historical coincidence that we weren't part of this tremendous mistake. But the fact remains. With a less short-sighted and less violent Middle East strategy, we could have prevented much of what triggers the waves of refugees today.

The recent history of the Middle East is Dictators, violence, religious hatred, death. Islam is not a religion of peace from what I see and read over and over. We were attacked from the Middle East, We retaliated, we gave Iraq a chance, they blew it because religious sectarian violence, and also corruption from within and without. Afghanistan is no different, the whole Middle East is unstable because of Religion, and sectarian hatred. They hate the West? They hate each other more.
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Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:31 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
The return of the Concentration Camp everyone.

Please explain.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 17):
Let's just have them all shot, shall we?

I'd prefer a peaceful solution. But these migrants need to understand that we can't accept any more of them. I find it completely inacceptable that they openly say that they will disrespect our laws and decisions anew. If we don't take a firm stand, yes, we will be run over. The last days and weeks have clearly shown this. There is nothing wrong with protecting your border by any means necessary, in fact it is a prime duty of every state.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
Young, educated immigrants is exactly what the German economy needs.

Last week it emerged that the government itself expects that only 1 out of 10 migrants is employable, and 2/3 come with no skills or education. Yeah. Exactly what we need!

[Edited 2015-09-13 15:34:44]
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Braybuddy
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
That's what Angela Merkel is thinking

While controlled immigration can be very beneficial to an economy, the sort of chaos we're seeing is absolute madness. Germany, or Europe, has no way of accommodating or employing millions of immigrants in the short term. Europe would face a third world future, with massive shanty towns perched outside cities, with all the health and social problems they bring.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 23):
While controlled immigration can be very beneficial to an economy, the sort of chaos we're seeing is absolute madness. Germany, or Europe, has no way of accommodating or employing millions of immigrants in the short term. Europe would face a third world future, with massive shanty towns perched outside cities, with all the health and social problems they bring.

You not only take good pictures, I can see you have a good perspective on the long term consequences of it all. How could it not affect Europe? Silly and naïve and also tragic to think it will not.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
I can see you have a good perspective on the long term consequences of it all. How could it not affect Europe? Silly and naïve and also tragic to think it will not.

Very naive: a sinking ship six months ago and a tragic picture of a dead child washed-up on a beach seems to have started this flood, and then turned it into a tsunami. It could be argued that the response to the former resulted in the latter.
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 9):
My patience is exhausted.

Then do something. Please.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
No-one in Germany "invited" refugees

I invite you to re-consider this statement.

True, Germany did not send out engraved invitations. But the rhetoric of German political leadership had the same effect.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
not least thanks to our American friends)

Sure, the Americans should have re-arranged the Middle East into a nice peace-loving democracy like they did so effectively for Germany. And Japan.

But, they tried, they spent billions, and no doubt would spend billions more if they could find anyone in the Middle East willing to govern themselves.

The fact is no one would care about all this, no one cares about people getting killed everyday in wars all over the world - except that now there are refugees in Europe. Thanks mostly to Germany.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
There really isn't much we can do.

Close the door.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
What would truly help is an all-European solution. Make refugees realize that they can't stay forever.

Nice idea.

But it's never worked. The Germans are still upset they were 'forcefully relocated' by the Poles etc. after WW2. Once refugees make a home in Europe they are here to stay.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
How about an all Arabic solution?

Under no circumstances should we demand Muslims or Arabs take care of this problem.

It's well known that only the EU or United States has the responsibility to solve the world's problems.

Quoting Rara (Reply 18):
There was no green light and no "open arms policy" - in fact quite the opposite.

You need to please recognize the difference between what you intended and how it was perceived.
You need to own it.
Every Syrian wants to go to Germany because of things said by the Germans themselves.






Pu.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 25):
Very naive: a sinking ship six months ago and a tragic picture of a dead child washed-up on a beach seems to have started this flood, and then turned it into a tsunami. It could be argued that the response to the former resulted in the latter.

I agree.

Quoting pu (Reply 26):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):How about an all Arabic solution?





Under no circumstances should we demand Muslims or Arabs take care of this problem

.


It's well known that only the EU or United States has the responsibility to solve the world's problems.

It is well past time to cut the cord on that one, we will either be broke, or converted to Islam or dead, or a combination of all three. As my signature says "Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees" We are our own worst enemies. There is another old saying " One can be killed by kindness" I think this is very apropos to this situation you folks have. I pray it does not become our fate also.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:40 am

I read in the paper and have now looked it up, the English Translation of the word Islam is (submission) Submission to Allah and the faith I guess. It sure seems we are going out of our way to do this, to facilitate the submission of the Western World to Islam. Madness.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:43 am

I'm actually more concerned about a country unilaterally suspending participation in a EU treaty. If Germany can suspend Schengen, what's to stop other countries from suspending participation in other areas (imagine Italy saying it will suspend participation in the European Monetary Union (aka. euro))?

Schengen was never thought of thoroughly. If I enter the EU through Portugal and end up in Estonia, I've traveled internationally even though the EU considers it a bit like domestic travel. Hence, if there's even one country with open borders and willing to accept immigrants, the whole of the EU has open borders. Migrants from Austria are stopped? Go to Switzerland and enter Germany. Border check with Switzerland too? Go to Poland. Go to the Czech Republic...the only way you insulate yourself is by closing all of YOUR borders or having all countries enforce border checks (which would mean Schengen would be no more).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
Schengen would be no more).

What ever Schengen is, kill it quickly before it kills Europe.   I do know.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 9):
the next measure must be to close all borders to our eastern neighbors.

Inevitably, otherwise it will be ineffective. It will result in domino effect. According to the local interior ministry, there has been no official communication from Germany regarding the reinstatement of the border contols and they have learned about it from the news outlets just as everyone else.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
Young, educated immigrants is exactly what the German economy needs. Its workforce is shrinking, its unfunded retirement liabilities growing, it's already having difficulties filling some skilled trade positions.

According to de Maziere, the German interior minister, 20% of the migrants are illiterate. 1 out of 10 is possible to integrate to the labor market without further costs for training, because they have proper qualification, says the labour minister.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
No-one in Germany "invited" refugees.

I think you need to refresh your memory and review the events of the past two weeks or so, when actions of your government have been rather confusing to put it mildly. Not to mention the crap Hungary has been taking from your and the Austrian government only to see them implement the exact same measures couple days later

Quoting Rara (Reply 18):
There was no green light and no "open arms policy" - in fact quite the opposite.

Well, it has been taken as such. One would have thought that Merkel - out of all people within the German establishment - would know what power misinterpreted word can have, when Genosse Schabowski managed to bring down the Berlin Wall with just one sentence.
http://youtu.be/DTBnOoBEJP0

[Edited 2015-09-13 18:14:46]
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
No-one in Germany "invited" refugees.

Wrong.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
Then divide them fair and square among ALL 28 EU member states.

There will be very few EU countries listening to German advice in the foreseeable future.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 16):What was Angela Merkel thinking when she gave the green light to every refugee
She was thinking long-term with an eye on the British economy, unlike most people.

Young, educated immigrants is exactly what the German economy needs. Its workforce is shrinking, its unfunded retirement liabilities growing, it's already having difficulties filling some skilled trade positions.

Syrian immigrants to Denmark throughout 2014: 13% of able workers have a job today, 87% unemployed. And Denmark has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe, actually lack of workforce in many sectors.

Many if not most can't read or write. Fewer knows our alphabet.

If Mrs. Merkel had a long term eye on Britain, then she failed terribly.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Hywel
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
How is that supposed to be in contradiction with each other? Of course we can take 500,000 refugees per year. In recent days we had 20,000 arrivals per day. Take that times 365 and you arrive at more than 7 millions. That's impossible.

It's not about the actual numbers (although very German of you to crunch the numbers). It's the fact that Merkel basically opened the door to anyone (Don't have a Syrian passport? Just claim you're Syrian). Of course it was going to lead to a big rush for migrants/refugees to get to Germany - this current situation was completely predictable and quite frankly, the rest of the EU is fed up of Germany's diktat.
 
mandala499
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:03 am

This is going to be a total screw up for Germany and Europe unless something is done soon.
Measures such as killing Schengen will be a nightmare for those in countries that need to have visas to go to Schengen territories... bye bye business trips with multiple countries because the downtime required to get the visa process for each country will be ridiculous... (yes, getting a German business visit visa is much easier than a French business visit visa as the latter dumps you with the student visa and tourist visa queues... nightmare for the summer)...

I am currently wondering if I'm going to have to speak Arabic on my next visit to Germany... 
Charitable intentions are nice, admirable, and honourable, but what's going on now is just... utter madness.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:19 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 33):
It's the fact that Merkel basically opened the door to anyone (Don't have a Syrian passport? Just claim you're Syrian). Of course it was going to lead to a big rush for migrants/refugees to get to Germany - this current situation was completely predictable and quite frankly, the rest of the EU is fed up of Germany's diktat.

I read a report from a Syrian from the Aleppo region, currently on the German Hungarian border. he said that, judging from people's accents around him, he thinks that only 10% or so of the "refugees" around him are actually Syrian, and that Syrian identity papers are being stolen by increasingly violent groups.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:25 am

and Denmark and Sweden are looking away from the Dublin accords and are not registering the refugees / asylum seekers and instead are letting them pass through to Norwy and Finland ...


Everyone apparently wants to go to either Finland or Norway ...

However, refugees are suppose to be registered and have their case go through the system in the first country they come to ...


Hopefully our politcians up here will close the border too, but I have my doubt that they are that smart ...


Schengen should have been dropped a long time ago
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 36):
have their case go through the system in the first country they come to ...

I don't agree with my own government's policies in the immigrant crisis. So don't interpret this as defending Swedish national policy.

But, you do realise no one sails in a raft through the Med, around Spain and France, bypassing Norway and Denmark to land in Sweden, right?

....Sweden is almost never 'the first country they come to'.

....also check with the BBC or CNN websites. Sweden is 2nd only to Germany in refugee applications. Not many are actively choosing Norway or Finland initially, it is the Swedish govt sending them on through invitation of or cooperation by thd Norwegian and Finnish govts.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34180378

Pu.

[Edited 2015-09-13 22:42:22]

[Edited 2015-09-13 22:48:55]
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5972
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:42 am

Quoting pu (Reply 37):
....Sweden is almost never 'the first country they come to'.

That does not change the fact that Sweden is allowing this mal practise to continue.

Quoting pu (Reply 37):
it is the Swedish govt sending them on through invitation of or cooperation by thd Norwegian and Finnish govts.

Eh no. The Norwegian government has not agreed to this and has most likely sent a reprimand to both the Danish and Swedish government.

[Edited 2015-09-13 22:45:29]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26789
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:46 am

Here's a thought. Cut off the Saudis, thus ending the economic foundation for Daesh, and work to rebuild the homelands of the refugees.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
Just get rid of the Schengen completely, it will be an utter failure as long as EU's outer borders aren't protected properly.

    

It has only been working extremely well for 20 years now.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 9):

Nur ein bischen Lebensraum, ja?   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):

I'm sure you have actual support of that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5972
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:03 am

Quoting pu (Reply 37):
....also check with the BBC or CNN websites. Sweden is 2nd only to Germany in refugee applications. Not many are actively choosing Norway or Finland initially, it is the Swedish govt sending them on through invitation of or cooperation by thd Norwegian and Finnish govts.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe...80378

"Few actually seek asylum in Sweden"


" Thousands of refugees and other migrants have come to Sweden in recent days. Most of them want to continue Norway or Finland.



Around 2,600 have applied for asylum in Sweden this week according the Swedish Migration Board, but it is only a small portion of those who have come. Only a small minority of those who have come, asks for protection in Sweden. Most want to travel on to Norway or Finland.

Several NGOs reported that many refugees and other migrants ask them for help in order to move forward, says Matilda Niang from the Swedish Migration Board. "


Article in Norwegian from Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...vare-pa-vei-til-Norge-8162373.html


Thousands of refugees are not staying in Sweden, comes to Norway

Sweden has the last week welcomed thousands of refugees. Most of them want progress to Norway.

http://www.abcnyheter.no/artikkel/194871831

[Edited 2015-09-13 23:08:01]
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:04 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):
That does not change the fact that Sweden is allowing this mal practise to continue

As is Norway. And Finland.

Whatever you think Sweden should be doing Norway could do itself....you want Sweden to put up border guards? Why pick on tiny Sweden of all places? Why is it Sweden's responsibility to protect Norwegian borders from Eritreans passing through Italy, Germany, Denmark....? Is there some reason why Norway isn't responsible for border protection but Sweden is?






Pu.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5972
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting pu (Reply 41):
As is Norway. And Finland.

Whatever you think Sweden should be doing Norway could do itself....you want Sweden to put up border guards? Why pick on tiny Sweden of all places? Why is it Sweden's responsibility to protect Norwegian borders from Eritreans passing through Italy, Germany, Denmark....? Is there some reason why Norway isn't responsible for border protection but Sweden is?

It is not in line with the Dublin Agreement.

- Countries have pledged to process the application for the asylum seekers and refugees if they are not registered in another Dublin country on the road. In such case, applicants should be sent back there.

Italy, Greece, Hungary, several Eastern European countries and most recently Germany, has let refugees go through to the other EU countries.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13564
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:27 am

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 13):
Almost all of these troops would be from the US, since most NATO countries barely have meaningful deployable armies anymore.

The US instigated this mess by supporting the Arab Spring, it's only fair that they provide the bulk of the troops.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 13):
Moreover, the supplies need would be extremely vast. We didn't have to feed all the Afghans. In a refugee safe zone, much of the food and other supplies would have to come from the outside.

That's where aid agencies come in.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
Where's this myth coming from I wonder. No-one in Germany "invited" refugees.

Merkel turned the trickle into a flood, saying that Germany would take 800,000 was all it took.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
Then divide them fair and square among ALL 28 EU member states. That would really help the situation tremendously.

Nope not at all why should all of Europe have to suffer because the German leadership made a bad decision?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
We were attacked from the Middle East, We retaliated, we gave Iraq a chance, they blew it because religious sectarian violence, and also corruption from within and without.

But instead of going after the country where most of the terrorists came from, where they recieved the bulk of there funding from and where there main support base is you attacked a third country which had nothihng to do with 9/11 and you blew it, you almost single handed screwed the middlle east for decades to come.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):
That does not change the fact that Sweden is allowing this mal practise to continue.

Norway still has border posts at all the majopr crossing points to Sweden, they aren't always manned but can be quickjly, it would be very easy stopping these people coming to Norway.
 
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pu
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 42):
It is not in line with the Dublin Agreement

I think it's pretty malicious to pinpoint Sweden for the failed Dublin agreement.

Obviously if the initial countries where the immigrants arrive from the sea or from Turkey aren't processing immigrants and instead letting them pass through deeper to Europe that is the primary problem.

.....open borders makes it nearly impossible for the second, third or fourth country they visit to even recognize them as illegal immigrants or implement the Dublin agreement.


BTW, if it were up to me there would be closed borders in Sweden effective a year or so ago. Insofar as the Swedish govt has advertised itself as a haven for immigrants and caused immigrants to seek Sweden, that is definitely Sweden's fault. But Sweden is not at fault for those seeking Norway or Finland.





Pu.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5972
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:46 am

Quoting pu (Reply 44):
I think it's pretty malicious to pinpoint Sweden for the failed Dublin agreement.

as I mentioned in post 42, it's alot of countries fault.
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:10 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 45):
as I mentioned in post 42, it's alot of countries fault.

I don't see Norway on that list in post 42.

It is impossible for countries to honor both the Schengen agreement abolishing passport controls AND effectively implement the Dublin Agreement....Unless the country has a non-Schengen border and/or is getting a lot of immigrants by sea.

If Norway doesn't want the "benefits" of Schengen, it can close the borders, which would be understandable. But it can't blame a neighboring Schengen state for keeping open borders while refusing to close its own - especially when it's been known for more than a year that there's an illegal immigrant problem from the south of Europe.

Norway's hands are in this as long as it stays in Schengen. Norway's immigration problems are its own -.this is one of the known costs of open borders.






Pu.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5972
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting pu (Reply 46):
I don't see Norway on that list in post 42.

Well ... so far we haven't put the Dublin agreement aside ...

Quoting pu (Reply 46):
If Norway doesn't want the "benefits" of Schengen, it can close the borders, which would be understandable. But it can't blame a neighboring Schengen state for keeping open borders while refusing to close its own - especially when it's been known for more than a year that there's an illegal immigrant problem from the south of Europe.

Well, the problem is that when other countries are not following agreements, why should Norway ? The refuges will wind up being tossed around back and fort between countries. Something that the Dublin agreement was supposed to end.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:12 am

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 22):
Last week it emerged that the government itself expects that only 1 out of 10 migrants is employable, and 2/3 come with no skills or education.

and now you know why about 1/3 of all asylum seekers can stay under one form of permit or another, and the rest is send home.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
I'm actually more concerned about a country unilaterally suspending participation in a EU treaty. If Germany can suspend Schengen, what's to stop other countries from suspending participation in other areas (imagine Italy saying it will suspend participation in the European Monetary Union (aka. euro))?

No need to worry, suspension of schengen is, unlike other things, actually part of the schengen agreement.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
Nope not at all why should all of Europe have to suffer because the German leadership made a bad decision?

I guess we keep that in mind for the next time someone asks for money.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 16):
Maybe some German members could give us some idea what exactly is going on here. Germans have a reputation for being organised, and loving "ordnung", yet what we've been seeing the last couple of weeks is the complete opposite:

The confusion comes from the phrase "closing the border", which isn't happening. The border is controlled again, aka you need a passport to cross. This is just "if you want to go to Germany, you better don't hide your identity by "losing" your passport!". And slowing down the arrivals is just a neccasity, Minister De Maizière gets his fair share of criticism because he failed to react early enough and didn't increase capacity early and fast enough.
So, the "haha, Germany is changing it's mind" is just right wing fantasy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
Just get rid of the Schengen completely, it will be an utter failure as long as EU's outer borders aren't protected properly.

The EU outer borders are better protected than the interior borders ever have been. I guess you didn't live in pre-schengen Europe?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:18 am

http://yle.fi/uutiset/suomeen_saapuv...eyspalvelut__valtio_maksaa/8299100

How good that all those asylum seekers get free private healthcare funded by the government while ordinary Finnish people wait to get to see a doctor in busy and overcrowded public healthcare hospitals. So, if you have a disease that needs treatment, no matter which country you are from come here, apply for asylum and Finnish tax payers will get you fixed! I recommend crossing our Northern border, the Swedes will give you extra cheap train and bus tickets if you look oppressed enough. They are even assisting Arabic speakers with Arabic signs in Lulea, so that they know what to do in Finland and where to go.

Of course the media is full of brainwashing. YLE is state owned, and all other major newspapers belong to just two companies. As usual in Europe most "journalists" tend to be very leftists, together with all other media personnel. Nobody in the media dares to question what is happening in Europe and Finland.

If current trends continue I wish Putin invades this pile of rubbish, nothing of value would be lost.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr

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