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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:43 pm

Now that Hungary has closed it's borders and are performing checks, as expected, migrants are finding new routes. Croatia has come out and said it will allow migrants to pass through unhindered and will register the migrants. Makes me think that this is a tad bit ambitious and they obviously haven't learned anything from their neighbor, Hungary. It won't be as easy as they think.

Also, Slovenia must be sh&*ing in their pants knowing that they are next on the path now. Seems like Austria also needs to be proactive now before the migrants arrive from this new direction and establish border checks to the south as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34270535

Quote:

Croatia says it will allow migrants to travel on to northern Europe - opening up a new route a day after Hungary sealed its border with Serbia. More than 150 migrants have crossed into Croatia from Serbia. Those stranded on Serbia's border with Hungary are making a similar trip. Croatia says it is ready to receive them or "direct" them to where they want to go. Many migrants - mainly Syrian - are hoping to reach Germany.

 
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OA260
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:44 pm

Tear Gas Fired As Migrants Break Through Fence

Sky News witnesses a pregnant woman being stretchered from the scene and a young boy being carried away with tear gas in his eyes.

Hungarian police have fired tear gas after hundreds of migrants broke through a razor wire fence on the border with Serbia.

Some 1,500 refugees who had been hoping to travel through Hungary are now blocked by a 3.5m-high fence, where footage is now emerging of panicked men, women and children running away from police.

http://news.sky.com/story/1553706/te...ed-as-migrants-break-through-fence


Its getting nasty now.


----



Slovenia has announced bringing back border controls with Hungary.

[Edited 2015-09-16 08:11:43]
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:42 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 101):

This is getting very nasty. Whether or not someone disagrees with Hungary's stance, is there a line to be drawn for what a sovereign nation can do to defend and control its borders, regardless of the specifics of the situation? I see both sides of the situation and while we are currently dealing with "refugees", does a nation have a right to use the force that is necessary to control who crosses its borders? I think that right still exists.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:10 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/16/wo...-von-der-leyen-amanpour/index.html

Quote:


Hungary's treatment of refugees at its border, including the use of tear gas and water cannons, "is not acceptable," Germany's defense minister told CNN's Christiane Amanpour on Wednesday.

"This is against the European rules," Ursula von der Leyen said in an exclusive interview.

The refugees have a right to be treated decently, she said. "This is something where we really have a lot to discuss in Europe."

"Not everybody is welcome," von der Leyen said. "But those who are war refugees and fleeing civil war and terror, and those who need political asylum -- it is our principle that they have to get shelter, and ... to get asylum here in Germany."

Nonetheless, Germany this week introduced temporary border controls where its territory meets Austria. Several other European countries quickly followed suit.

Von der Leyen denied that this constituted closing down the border.


I'm not choosing sides here and preaching what's right and wrong, but in reading numerous articles these days I can't help but think that Germany is really sending mixed messages. In this process they are digging themselves deeper into a hole and pointing fingers at other nations for acting the way they do even though they can't find a proper solution in the short term.

So von der Leyen is saying that these migrants shouldn't be treated this way. But Germany first opened the flood gates, which in turn started this free for all. Then they implemented border checks when things got hairy super quick. These border checks are putting extreme strain on Hungary and Austria since migrants are piling up in both countries and unable to freely travel into Germany. Then they have the audacity to say Hungary is acting incorrectly in trying to control the flow across it's border, when they themselves did just that as well?

Yes, tear gas is not humane. But dignity also flies out the door when migrants barbarically do everything in their power to climb through the sealed border. Hungary is only trying to protect itself from further chaos and can't seem to win regardless of what they do in this situation.

If Germany goes so far as to blame what is happening at the Hungarian border, me thinks they need to abolish their temporary border checks and let these immigrants start flowing into Deutschland again with no limits. Then Hungary won't have to worry about protecting itself using any measure possible.

[Edited 2015-09-16 12:11:27]
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 103):
Yes, tear gas is not humane.

It is a form of crowd control that is frequently used on EU citizens in similar situations. No form of violence is humane.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 103):
But dignity also flies out the door when migrants barbarically do everything in their power to climb through the sealed border.

Many observations have been made the past few weeks on the attitudes and actions of many of the migrants which unfortunately are not helping the plight of the few genuine refugees that require our attention. I am surprised at comments that I read, even in news publications that have left-leaning/liberal readers.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:06 pm

The simple solution:

Load them all up on trains and send them back to wherever. Or Turkey. Then lock up all the external borders (I’m looking at you Greece).

The not so simple, but still doable solution:

Interview and register each refugee. If they have skills, can work, or do something to contribute to society, let them in and give them work permits. If they can’t do anything, send them back. If the ones that were let in haven’t found work in a year, send them back.
 
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OA260
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 105):
Then lock up all the external borders (I’m looking at you Greece).

Well last year when that was hinted at by some Greek right wing parties the EU said it would be against their human rights namely Germany said Greece could not do that. So it seems the rules change depending on which EU country you are.

Just shows how when its on your own doorstep rules go out the window.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:03 pm

I agree with Hungary, they are trying to save their Christian Nation. After the years of oppression from the USSR, they have learned something valuable, not to follow the folly of Europe. A humanitarian Crisis is the cry. We shall see who the humanitarians are years from now. This mob who will not adapt, assimilate, nor follow any rules other than Islam's rules will not show humanitarianism when they gain more of a toehold in the Europe that was denied them by blood sweat and tears so many years ago. Imagine the Eiffel Tower being blown off the face of the earth. We all know how well these folks appreciate Christian history. Submit, or die is maybe is what you will hear unless you stop the hordes at the door now. The Crusades in reverse maybe?
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 105):
Then lock up all the external borders (I’m looking at you Greece).

The land border with Turkey is mostly walled up and not that penetrable. The issue is with the marine border. The tactics being used by traffickers and migrants (sinking their own boats to force a rescue) gives very few options. Greece can always pull an Australia but with the death toll already so high, that would not fly in the EU.
 
N1120A
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 103):
Yes, tear gas is not humane. But dignity also flies out the door when migrants barbarically do everything in their power to climb through the sealed border. Hungary is only trying to protect itself from further chaos and can't seem to win regardless of what they do in this situation.

They elected sick, bigoted religious fanatics. They should be thrown out of the EU for their treatment of refugees.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 107):

I agree with Hungary, they are trying to save their Christian Nation.

Oh please. That is as disgusting as the Israeli, Saudi or Iranian religious "nations."

Quoting lewis (Reply 108):
The land border with Turkey is mostly walled up and not that penetrable. The issue is with the marine border. The tactics being used by traffickers and migrants (sinking their own boats to force a rescue) gives very few options. Greece can always pull an Australia but with the death toll already so high, that would not fly in the EU

It would also basically murder the last remaining strength of the Greek economy - tourism.
 
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HELyes
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 105):
If they have skills, can work, or do something to contribute to society, let them in and give them work permits. If they can’t do anything, send them back.

Confusing...

So you would send back those who need protection most: children, disabled, old people? National asylum systems are there to decide which asylum seekers actually qualify for international protection, labour force is a different question.

If the labour force is the point here why are we crying there are so many young healthy males among the asylum seekers?

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 105):
Load them all up on trains and send them back to wherever

Where is that "wherever"? You can't put people on a train in Germany if they are not accepted back behind the borders in Turkey, Syria, Iraq...

[Edited 2015-09-16 14:46:38]
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 109):
It would also basically murder the last remaining strength of the Greek economy - tourism.

So we arrive at a point where hoards of migrants and some refugees (whoever cannot see that most of them are not refugees is just naive) can just charge and cross sovereign borders with no control, refusing to be registered or even identified and demanding passage to specific countries of their liking (ie. those who offer the biggest benefits). I'm pretty sure that is not what people had in mind when thinking about refugees in all related conventions.
 
N1120A
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 111):
So we arrive at a point where hoards of migrants and some refugees (whoever cannot see that most of them are not refugees is just naive)

I think that is very short-sighted. The vast, vast majority are refugees. Especially when coming from Iraq and Syria.
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 112):

Not at all. Refugees stop being refugees once they reach the first country that provides them safety. It has always been like that in any conflict that has historically created a mass exodus - most recently in Sudan. Migrating to specific countries based on what allowances and benefits are given is not an action of a refugee but of an economic migrant. That is how things are defined, no matter how you try to spin it. Migrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and other countries that are not wartorn are also not refugees in any sense and they make up a big part of the crowds you see migrating north.

At the moment there is a heated situation at the border between Serbia and Hungary with a group of thousands of people hurling stones and empty bottles at border police and demanding passage to a country of their liking - I wonder what would happen if I did the same to the CBP officer at LAX next time I fly in. Refugees you said? Running from conflict in Serbia? Greece? What?

[Edited 2015-09-16 16:59:56]
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting Stealthz (Reply 98):
For years now the sanctimonious Europeans have been lecturing countries like Australia on our refugee policies....

Yes, I know that. Many EU leaders have trashed Australian policy over time.

But there are also many EU leaders who have said that "we should do as the Australians". It may not have hit OZ news the same way, but it is certainly on top of the agenda here right now.

EU is many countries with many different views. That is one major difference from Australia.

Quoting Stealthz (Reply 98):
....and now they are faced with the reality of the situation they have retreated into isolationist xenophohopia.

Yeah, for the time being that is correct.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 109):
Oh please. That is as disgusting as the Israeli, Saudi or Iranian religious "nations."

I think It is a reality that some on here have not a clue about. These folks mobbing the fences are not friends of Christians, no matter how you spin it. When non-Christians become the majority, guess what, you now have a non-Christian country which as we see all over the Middle East, it then becomes not very healthy for Christians. I wonder if you can provide one example of Christians becoming the majority in a traditionally Muslim Nation. I would like to hear one example of Christians being allowed to migrate in sizable numbers to a Muslim Country.


Your defense of this happening to a European Country would be laughable if it were not so pathetic, especially while you live in the US from what I can see. You go live with them and be sure to bring your Bible and exercise your right to Religious freedom by preaching Christianity. I hope you have your affairs in order.      
 
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OA260
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 112):
I think that is very short-sighted. The vast, vast majority are refugees. Especially when coming from Iraq and Syria.

A lot of them have jumped on the band wagon from Pakistan,Bangladesh etc... Those are NOT refugees. Im all for hosting Syrian refugees but not others who are migrant workers and even being interviewed on TV they dont hide that fact. They are coming for a better life not fleeing war. Also Turkey is a safe country and not at war. So should they be shipped back there in their thousands?

Like I said I have great sympathy with Syrian refugees so anyone who is not should be processed and deported in a matter of days.

Your own country could easily take in 300-400K.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 110):
So you would send back those who need protection most: children, disabled, old people?

There are very few of these people coming.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 112):
The vast, vast majority are refugees. Especially when coming from Iraq and Syria.

No the majority of Syrians we get are coming from the camps in Turkey where most have been for several years, they have already been given status in Turkey, but want more so now they are heading to Germany, thanks to Merkel and her big mouth.
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 109):
It would also basically murder the last remaining strength of the Greek economy - tourism.

What do you think do hordes of migrants do to the local tourism industry on the islands of Lesbos or Kos?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 117):

No the majority of Syrians we get are coming from the camps in Turkey where most have been for several years, they have already been given status in Turkey, but want more so now they are heading to Germany, thanks to Merkel and her big mouth.

Indeed, in legal terms most are not genuine asylum seekers as they are not fleeing directly from a war zone. That's not a moral judgement but a legal one. All of that aside though, my concern is a shameful lack of action across the board to actually prevent and discourage people from sailing in unsuitable dinghies and leaky rust buckets in the first place, both with proper security and actually working to give people hope in staying put through providing jobs, education and propects. Rather than encouraging people to risk life and limb we need to give them a decent chance of a life where they are until things improve.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:51 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=123&v=fgJRjy2Xc0c

Quite a beautiful video from the Hungarians. Great to see there's at least one country in Europe with a population that has a healthy sense of self preservation. Our "national coalition" politicians here in Finland aren't willing to do anything to stop this madness, I believe they pursue liberal immigration policy to destroy our welfare system and establish a class society with a lot of cheap labour. To them the leftists who support this thing due to humanitarian reasons and such are just useful idiots.

In Facebook Arabic instructions regarding how to seek asylum in Finland are being spread, in them the asylum seekers are given tips regarding what they should claim as their origin, how to hide the route they used to enter Finland and so on, recommended to destroy documents regarding their identity if they really aren't from most dangerous areas etc.

[Edited 2015-09-17 07:58:32]
 
Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 89):
When one calls another country killers, one should always look back at history for your countries record of such.

How's that supposed to work in practice? If I want to say that the 2003 Iraq War was unprovoked, unnecessary, extremely costly and had a terrible outcome, am I supposed to add a disclaimer each time saying "but of course I realize that World War II was also very, very bad"? That's a serious question. Your comment could easily be interpreted in such a way that no-one from any country with anything but the cleanest record can ever criticize international aggression, which I'm sure is not what you want to say. Because else we can all stop discussing and leave the forums for the Swiss.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 89):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...s-baathist-alliance_n_5792172.html

Well, all that says is that some military types defected to the other side, which isn't really unusual. The key is this passage from the article: "Baathism is fundamentally a secular, pan-Arab movement, which the pan-Islamist movements have been at odds with for decades." In simple terms: ISIS -> extreme Islamists, Baathists -> not really Islamist at all.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 91):

It seems that your entire comment is based on the idea that the invasion of Iraq was fundamentally a good idea. If that's the case, then for one I'm amazed that there are still people who think so, and second I don't think we have much a basis for discussion. I'm quite happy about your "Old Europe propaganda" thing though. If opposing unnecessary wars is the core of "Old Europe", then... let's just say some things have changed for the better.  
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 105):
If they can’t do anything, send them back.

Ahh, the beauty of our Christian values. Jesus would be overjoyed at your attitude. Isn't that something that sets us apart from those terrible Muslims?  
Quoting pvjin (Reply 120):
one country in Europe with a population that has a healthy sense of self preservation

You realize that's Nazi terminology, right? And the video is downright Fascist.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 121):
You realize that's Nazi terminology, right? And the video is downright Fascist.

How is it Nazi terminology? Filling your country with refugees from a very different culture is unarguably a bad thing for the economy and safety, is acknowledging that fascist?

The message of the video is pretty similar to that of the Australian government, are they fascist too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT12WH4a92w

Quoting Rara (Reply 121):
Ahh, the beauty of our Christian values. Jesus would be overjoyed at your attitude. Isn't that something that sets us apart from those terrible Muslims?  

Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all rubbish. What sets an average Christian apart from an average Muslim is the level how seriously they allow their rubbish religion to affect their daily life, and fundamentally they take those fairytales written in the Bible or Quran. An average Muslim is about as open minded as an average European Christian was 200 years ago, and that's not nice.
 
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OA412
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 122):
How is it Nazi terminology?
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007679
Hitler's goal was racial purity, which is essentially what the Hungarians are arguing. They're arguing that they're the gatekeepers of Christian Europe, making Europe safe for Christianity against the advancing Muslim hordes.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 122):
Filling your country with refugees from a very different culture is unarguably a bad thing for the economy and safety, is acknowledging that fascist?

It's certainly racist...
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 121):
Because else we can all stop discussing and leave the forums for the Swiss.

The Swiss have only been neutral for some centuries, before that they loved war like everyone else, even going so far as doing it for other countries.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 103):
Hungary's treatment of refugees at its border, including the use of tear gas and water cannons, "is not acceptable," Germany's defense minister told CNN's Christiane Amanpour on Wednesday.

"This is against the European rules," Ursula von der Leyen said in an exclusive interview.

The refugees have a right to be treated decently, she said. "This is something where we really have a lot to discuss in Europe."

If the Germans really feel that way then they should lay on flights from Turkey direct to Germany so all the countries along the route don't have to put up with all these people. With direct flights they could also decide who is a refugee and who isn't at the point of embarkation, that would save a lot of people a long walk, and save a few lives as well.

Seriously what right has Germany got to dictate to other European countries?

On another note these people also leave a hell of a mess along the way, is Germany going to clean that up as well?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 120):
Quite a beautiful video from the Hungarians.

Off topic question, as a Finn can you understand Hungarian, I know they are part of the same language group, but is it understandable?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 123):
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007679
Hitler's goal was racial purity, which is essentially what the Hungarians are arguing. They're arguing that they're the gatekeepers of Christian Europe, making Europe safe for Christianity against the advancing Muslim hordes.

I don't think race matters, but culture does, and religion to lesser amount. Uncontrolled immigration doesn't result in anything good, and it's very destructive to our welfare systems. A person who gets an asylum here receives same welfare as everybody else does, thus if you add tens of thousands of new welfare recipients to a country like Finland every Finn will be worse off.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 123):
It's certainly racist...

Then the big majority of world with sensible immigration policies is racist. In pretty much everywhere outside the west the idea of refugees receiving same benefits as the native population is absolutely unheard of, assuming they are allowed to enter in the first place.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125):
Off topic question, as a Finn can you understand Hungarian, I know they are part of the same language group, but is it understandable?

Unfortunately I can't. I can understand some Estonian, but Hungarian is already too far away.

[Edited 2015-09-17 11:17:02]
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125):
Seriously what right has Germany got to dictate to other European countries?

None. Our political leaders are out of their minds (and out of control). Sorry on behalf of the majority of our citizens...
 
bhill
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 13):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
f we had any leadership, NATO would, using southern Turkey as a base (since Turkey is a part of NATO) push into northern Syria, perhaps north of Aleppo, put a solid 50 mile or so perimeter within Syria defended by NATO troops, and declare it a refugee safe haven for all Syrians, and allow the UNHCR and other aid agencies to do their work under NATO protection. And of course, all Syrian refugees already in Europe should be sent back there.

Arm these refugees and send them back....or let Russia have it's way...Democracy is not cheap..time for the Western Countries to stop spending blood and treasure on this shit..
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 123):
It's certainly racist...

You come from a country with immigration quotas on every level. A country where it is harder to move to if you are from certain countries (India, Pakistan, China) than others (Greece, Italy, UK). A country where extensive background checks are required even for tourists visiting Disneyworld in Orlando. A country that nowadays deports working and tax-paying foreign employees if they do not go through a lottery to renew their work visas. At the end of the day it is your country and your government gets to decide who comes in and for what reason. Why shouldn't another country be able to control their borders like the US? Would the US stay idle while groups of tens of thousands demanded to be left alone to cross your border while throwing garbage and rocks at your CBP agents? I don't think you understand what is going on in Europe right now.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:55 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 128):
Arm these refugees and send them back....

I have heard someone propose just this today, however that wouldn't be cheap either, and would require more involvement on the ground from western countries and allies to convince them they have a chance.
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125):
the Germans really feel that way then they should lay on flights from Turkey direct to Germany

Turkey is too hard for the refugees: flights from Damascus, Lagos, Tunis, etc. gets right to the core of neediest people who can't manage a long voyage.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 127):
Sorry on behalf of the majority of our citizens...

That's very big of you. Thanks.
It's often hard to remember that in a democracy many many people do not support the actions of their own government - even though most of us live in democracies and should realise this.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 97):
or my part it's not hypocrisy, I think European countries should close all the US bases and beef up their own military

When Europe doesn't rely on the US in the Balkans and when Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia + Poland can reliably call on France to deter Putin I will say it is unhypocritical to spew vitriol at America. Until then, it's diabolical to castigate America's efforts in world affaires while unwilling to make the sacrifices and spend the resources ourselves.




Pu.
 
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OA412
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 126):
Then the big majority of world with sensible immigration policies is racist.

Of course most immigration policy is racist, though I wouldn't call it sensible. Most immigration policy, in the west and elsewhere, is designed to keep others out, particularly the undesirable du jour.

Quoting lewis (Reply 129):
You come from a country with immigration quotas on every level. A country where it is harder to move to if you are from certain countries (India, Pakistan, China) than others (Greece, Italy, UK). A country where extensive background checks are required even for tourists visiting Disneyworld in Orlando. A country that nowadays deports working and tax-paying foreign employees if they do not go through a lottery to renew their work visas. At the end of the day it is your country and your government gets to decide who comes in and for what reason. Why shouldn't another country be able to control their borders like the US? Would the US stay idle while groups of tens of thousands demanded to be left alone to cross your border while throwing garbage and rocks at your CBP agents? I don't think you understand what is going on in Europe right now.

Who says I'm supportive of this country's immigration system? I'm very familiar with the system. Both of my parents are immigrants. The quotas are absolutely designed to keep out certain immigrant groups like the ones listed, along with immigrants from Latin America, particularly Mexico. It's an unbelievably flawed system with immense racial overtones. It's also a system I've never supported.

I don't think any country just sits idly by while their border agents are being attacked. I also don't think most countries sit idly by and allow people to just cross their borders. The US certainly doesn't. But that's not what I'm criticizing. It's one thing to protect your borders, though Schengen was supposed to make it so that border crossing was easier. It's another to not want people in because they're not Christian and not White, thus not like us. It's these sorts of attitudes that I'm criticizing.
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 129):
I don't think you understand what is going on in Europe right now.

Certainly seems so. Some of our American friends here seem to be oblivious to their country's immigration policies... i.e. cherry-picking its would be immigrants, defending its southern border with military measures and certainly offering no benefits at all (rather a speedy deportation) to those who have entered legally. Calling Europe (or some European countries) 'inhuman' or 'racist' is uncalled for. How many Syrian refugees do the USA want to take in again? 10 000? How generous!

Quoting pu (Reply 131):
That's very big of you. Thanks.

Only the truth. I've seen polls with thousands of participants where more than 90% disagree with what it is going on at the moment. I see what is happening in social media and hear people's candid opinions in the real world all the time. And in state media you hear that a majority supports the immigration... it's becoming a lot like North Korea really.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 127):
Sorry on behalf of the majority of our citizens...

You mean the majority of 27% that thinks the German government is doing too much for the refugees and the 70% minority that thinks they are doing just right or not enough I guess? Out of which about half are in the "not enough" camp.

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 130):
I have heard someone propose just this today, however that wouldn't be cheap either, and would require more involvement on the ground from western countries and allies to convince them they have a chance.

Training and arming them comes to the tune of a million Euro/Person.
General Lloyd Austin, the commander of U.S. Central Command leading the war on ISIS, told Congress today that only “four or five” of the first 54 U.S.trained moderate Syrian fighters remain in the fight against ISIS.
Out of those 54 Al Nusra killed 6, captured 20-25 and wounded 18 for a bargain price: 42 million US $ so far.

Yeah, that is going to be really cheap  

best regards
Thomas
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 134):
You mean the majority of 27% that thinks the German government is doing too much for the refugees
Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 133):
And in state media you hear that a majority supports the immigration... it's becoming a lot like North Korea really.

If you are willing to believe anything that the media publishes, I won't stop you. Even our former minister of the interior has said that the published opinion differs a 100% from the public opinion, and that means a lot in my opinion. Other leading figures have commented that support is declining by the hour... I could go on from here.

[Edited 2015-09-18 04:49:24]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 136):
f you are willing to believe anything that the media publishes, I won't stop you.

I guess that means you visited Syria, Turkey, Hungry and several refugee accommodations to form your opinion or where do you get your information ?
Please, tell us more about your first hand eyewitness experience.

Best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 135):

Training and arming them comes to the tune of a million Euro/Person.
General Lloyd Austin, the commander of U.S. Central Command leading the war on ISIS, told Congress today that only “four or five” of the first 54 U.S.trained moderate Syrian fighters remain in the fight against ISIS.
Out of those 54 Al Nusra killed 6, captured 20-25 and wounded 18 for a bargain price: 42 million US $ so far.

I think moderate Syrian units to fight both the Islamists and Assad can only work in a context of a massive NATO mission, where NATO provides the suppor, command structure and logistics, similar in how e.g. the Free french, the Belgian, Danish, Norwegian and Dutch exile armies were trained, equipped and integrated into a common command structure by the British in WW2. Alone they will just provide cannon fodder for the Islamists and Assad's troops.

And NATO involvement in Syria will bring NATO in a direct confrontation with Russia, who are currently sending troops, combat aircraft, tanks and AA equipment to Syria.

As for Germany, I think that anybody who has a questionable or no ID should be locked up in a camp until the situation is cleared. There are too many now riding on the coat tails of the true refugees, e.g. Nigerians or Ghanaeseclaimng to be Syrian. We need to know who is entering our country and coming from a poor country is not an acceptable reason for asylum. But I can already imagine the headlines if we Germans set up camps with barbed wire around them.

I have also read too many interviews where refugees and economic migrants make demands about being settled in cvities and given free access to university education.
Many seem to have an expectation that it is our duty to make their dreams come true.

Jan
 
speedbird217
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 137):
I guess that means you visited Syria, Turkey, Hungry and several refugee accommodations to form your opinion or where do you get your information ?

Why exactly should Luftfahrer visit these places to form an opinion about how the German citizens think about the current situation in their own country? That doesn't make any sense.

I agree with him, I know quite a few Germans that don't agree with Merkel's current policy and what is happening in Germany at the moment, including myself.
It's actually quite funny, observing the whole thing as a German from the perspective of living in a different country. It's chaos, hysteria and "fashionable" to be one of the naive supporters of opening up Germany to anybody that's not happy with their life anywhere in the world.
I seriously question those statistics you and the media bring forward as it definitely does not match what I see amongst my German friends and family. The media is also doing their bit and the best I can do is describe the current reporting in German media as "biased", a more accurate description would be borderline-propaganda.

I think the main issue at the moment is that all the supporters of Merkel and her open door policy simply scream louder than the people that see this whole thing in a more critical light. It is not helping that anybody criticising the current influx of immigration is immediately being denounced as "Nazi" or "Racist" from the people that are too naive to think of the consequences.

It is actually quite amusing and equally worrying how it seems to have become a trend in Germany that anybody that has a world view I would describe as realistic is denounced Nazi or Racist immediately to shut them up. This is more and more turning into a witch-hunt against anybody that doesn't agree with their point of view. The only "Nazis" are the people setting fire to migrant camps, but I guess it's just easier to make no differentiation between a stupid minority and millions of people that simply think a bit further than throwing welcome parties.

Feel free to put me in this drawer, I know I don't belong there and I honestly don't care - one of the good things of living outside of Germany and engaging with people of other nationalities is that you know how pathetic this whole finger-pointing exercise is.
I have vast international experience, lived in different countries across the globe and I would describe my social engagements as extremely diverse with friends, colleagues and even my partner from all over the world. None of them understand what exactly Germany is trying to achieve at the moment, apart from "repaying" a historic debt that is not a debt that should be paid by a generation that has nothing to do with what has happened 70 years ago.

It says a lot that the only people that are allowed to criticize immigration and integration issues in Germany are actually migrants or people with a different ethnical background themselves.
Germany has gone from one extreme to the other, I am quite worried for the future of my birth country and for the future of Europe as a whole with everything that is going on at the moment.

Oh, and one other interesting fact bit that I don't see reported much in the Germany media: a whooping 20% of all asylum applications from Jan-Aug in Germany have been by Syrians...
http://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlage...9C.1_cid368?__blob=publicationFile
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 138):
I think moderate Syrian units to fight both the Islamists and Assad can only work in a context of a massive NATO mission, where NATO provides the suppor, command structure and logistics, similar in how e.g. the Free french, the Belgian, Danish, Norwegian and Dutch exile armies were trained, equipped and integrated into a common command structure by the British in WW2.

That would work, if there was a common goal, aka who would want to fight for Assad in the end? You can only try that after drawing a plausible image for after the war. All those knew what they were fighting for, status quo ante, which in the current case means fighting for Assad.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 138):
and given free access to university education.

Well, university is free here and having foreigners go to German universities is part of our foreign aid programs, so if they are qualified, that would go a long way for integration.
Of course as a student you don't get any welfare and have to work for a living. So, refugees willing to work for a living shall have free access to universities within the same limitations as anyone else.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 138):
As for Germany, I think that anybody who has a questionable or no ID should be locked up in a camp until the situation is cleared.

Don't think you need camps, unless you have good reasons to be suspicious. And that would have to be open to challenge in court. You know... the law. If you just disappear you don't have money, and without a passport & visa you are bound to be picked up by police quite quickly unless you stay at home (which home?) more or less all the time.
For checking where people come from, I mentioned this a couple of times before, they even check the use of languange, which can usually pin down where you grew up to within a few kilometers. They are not that stupid.
And we can hardly start a "don't throw you passport away" ad campaign, since everyone would be screaming "they are inviting refugees".

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 140):
Of course as a student you don't get any welfare and have to work for a living. So, refugees willing to work for a living shall have free access to universities within the same limitations as anyone else.

Really? Is the employment situation in Germany really so good that any student should be able to find a job that provides enough money for living without any tax funded benefits? Because here that certainly isn't the case, no way we are going to find anywhere near enough jobs for these refugees either.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 140):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 138):
and given free access to university education.

Well, university is free here and having foreigners go to German universities is part of our foreign aid programs, so if they are qualified, that would go a long way for integration.
Of course as a student you don't get any welfare and have to work for a living. So, refugees willing to work for a living shall have free access to universities within the same limitations as anyone else.

I know this and I know that the German system attracts a lot of foreigners, including from the US, who can get a recognised degree here for less than they would pay at a community colllege back home. In many cases this is good investment, as they will stay here and work here later in their professions.

What irks me are demands for quarters in specific cities and refusing rural or unfashionable places, where there is housing available, and instead concentrating on a few overcrowded cities.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 141):
Really? Is the employment situation in Germany really so good that any student should be able to find a job that provides enough money for living without any tax funded benefits? Because here that certainly isn't the case, no way we are going to find anywhere near enough jobs for these refugees either.

Students are expected to work here.

Jan
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 50):
The EU has 500 millions people. A couple of millions of refugees aren't going to make it into a third world zone.

A couple of millions of refugees - this year alone. You can double that amount by this time next year, and triple by the year after and so on and with the population in Africa and the ME booming, it's a never ending story and it doesn't take too long to figure out that with this speed, it'll take maybe around 100-150 years before Europeans are in the minority in Europe itself.

[Edited 2015-09-18 06:17:00]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
Why exactly should Luftfahrer visit these places to form an opinion about how the German citizens think about the current situation in their own country? That doesn't make any sense.

Because his mantra is "don't trust the media", unless he has been to those places he can't form an opinion about refugees without media, unless he talked to every German or conducted a scientific poll he can't say anything about the public opinion without trusting the media.

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
I seriously question those statistics you and the media bring forward as it definitely does not match what I see amongst my German friends and family.

Well, if you look for anecdotes I don't believe the media either, since I know exactly one person in my private life that sees an alternative to letting them in. That would put the opposition at about 1%. Not hugs & puppies with all of them, but none sees a viable short term alternative. I guess those numbers even out somehow.
Everyone can order a poll at Emnid, Sample and so on, it is not that expensive either. You think the CSU or other right wing organisations can't afford it and publish "better" data? If you think that a successful polling company like TNS emnid with a 70 year history is faking it's polls, you better come up with more solid evidence than "my family and friends think different".

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
It is actually quite amusing and equally worrying how it seems to have become a trend in Germany that anybody that has a world view I would describe as realistic is denounced Nazi or Racist immediately to shut them up.

You have data to back that up? Sounds a lot like "Christianity under attack" on FOX news.

Racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

If you believe that ALL those refugees are in fact out to kill us, ALL refugees just come for welfare, ALL refugees are in fact economical migrants and so on, then you are a racists, in the limited sense it is applicable to a religious group.

If you just say "I have some worries where that will lead us", "some of them may be ISIS terrorists" and such, then you are not. But when it comes to refugees you read a lot of "they" and "all".

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
Oh, and one other interesting fact bit that I don't see reported much in the Germany media: a whooping 20% of all asylum applications from Jan-Aug in Germany have been by Syrians...

So much for biased media. That boils a million down to 200.000 refugees and 800.000 of which most will go home near term. If they have a pro-refugee policy like some claim, that would be perfect to spin it into "See, just few will stay anyways".
And of course it debunks the whole "they all claim to be Syrian and live of welfare at our expense" BS.
Seems more like the media is against the refugees and all the positive stuff is just written because they know that is what the majority of readers want to read, bUT they withold the really good stuff like your link.... I can do media conspiracy theories too, you know....

Best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 140):
Don't think you need camps, unless you have good reasons to be suspicious. And that would have to be open to challenge in court. You know... the law. If you just disappear you don't have money, and without a passport & visa you are bound to be picked up by police quite quickly unless you stay at home (which home?) more or less all the time.
For checking where people come from, I mentioned this a couple of times before, they even check the use of languange, which can usually pin down where you grew up to within a few kilometers. They are not that stupid.
And we can hardly start a "don't throw you passport away" ad campaign, since everyone would be screaming "they are inviting refugees".

The thing is that we'll create a law and rightless lumpenproletariat. Some employers will be happy, because they can use them to undercut regular wages and be cheaper than their legal competition.
As for Arabic, I know from my sister, who studied the language at university, that the various dialects and accents are quite different and that a linguist can determine from the accent if a person came from e.g. Morrocco or Kuwait. But if this is being recognised in court is a different question.
I knew the ambassador of Sierra Leone many years ago. He told me that he got fed up of West Africans claiming to be Sierra Leonians (as back then there was a civil war going on there and Germany was not deporting people to Sierra Leone). Many of these got caught by German police e.g. dealing with drugs and were in fact Nigerians and were giving Sierra Leone a bad name. He asked the police in the town he was living in to call him if they arrested somebody claiming to be from Sierra Leone. He would then talk to the prisoner in Sierra Leonian local languages and ask them questions about where they would come from, about geography and details about Sierra leonian culture any Sierra Leonian would know. Often the prisoners didn't even know the name of the capital and could not understand any of the local languages. He often could estimate from their accent from which country in West Africa they came from.

What I'd like is a bit more personalised approach to the individual immigrants. Some would turn into model citizens, others are political or religious extremists or will turn criminals. No matter how they came here, I'd liketo keep the future model citizens, who will integrate themselves and contribute to society, and get rid of the others. But both the amount of immigration department staff as the legal situation doesn't allow for this, so we usually deport the law abiding ones (because they don't cause trouble, and it is good for the statistics), but don't touch the others (too much hassle).
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 141):
Really? Is the employment situation in Germany really so good that any student should be able to find a job that provides enough money for living without any tax funded benefits?

Well, if you are a student you don't get welfare even if you don't find a job. But yes, it is so good, students having a hard time finding a part time job are fairly rare, in fact most can just quit and start somewhere else if they don't like their job. The job market was overall much worse when I went to university in the 90s, and it never took me more than a day to find something new. In fact I didn't have a single interview without getting the job until "real work" started.
Undergraduate assistant jobs where sort of hart to come by, but that's about it.

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:31 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 145):

What I'd like is a bit more personalised approach to the individual immigrants. Some would turn into model citizens, others are political or religious extremists or will turn criminals. No matter how they came here, I'd liketo keep the future model citizens, who will integrate themselves and contribute to society, and get rid of the others.

We do have an area of agreement there.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 146):

I see. Here students do get benefits that are mostly enough to cover living costs, though many students do work during summers in particular.

Perhaps your better employment situation will help integrating those refugees that get to stay in Germany. Here in Finland refugees/immigrants from Africa / Middle East haven't typically found employment very well, their overall employment rate seems to be somewhere around 25-35%.

If refugees keep flowing in at this rate we will either have to very much reduce the benefits paid to them, or prepare for the end of the Finnish welfare system. The amount of benefits we pay to them right now we designed when Finland received around 3000 asylum seekers a year, now we might see 40 000 a year or more.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 148):
Perhaps your better employment situation will help integrating those refugees that get to stay in Germany.

Problem is most refugees are not allowed to work, but I agree, being in a work environment would go a long way for integration. And a less nice "bored young men with nothing to do" fishing ground for extremists.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 148):
Here in Finland refugees/immigrants from Africa / Middle East haven't typically found employment very well, their overall employment rate seems to be somewhere around 25-35%.

Of all or the economically active? Well, either one wouldn't be good.

Best regards
Thomas

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