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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 149):
Problem is most refugees are not allowed to work, but I agree, being in a work environment would go a long way for integration. And a less nice "bored young men with nothing to do" fishing ground for extremists.
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 149):
Of all or the economically active? Well, either one wouldn't be good.

Not sure what's the English term, this graph basically shows the development of unemployment rate of people among workforce, divided into different language groups:

http://tietotrendit.stat.fi/static/m...skyla_tyottomyysasteen_kehitys.png

As you can see people with Afghan or Somali as native language have the highest unemployment rate. Then come the Russian speakers (venäjä), the rest are fairly equal, (suomi = finnish, ruotsi = swedish) Swedish speakers have the lowest unemployment rate. The black line shows overall unemployment rate in one of our provinces, issues with unemployment tend to be worse in the countryside away from largest urban centers.

This other graph shows "employment rate", which I believe excludes students and such that that aren't counted as "unemployed" in that higher graph... Not sure about the exact definitions of all these terms.

http://tietotrendit.stat.fi/static/m...2myrskyla_tyollisyyden_kehitys.png

[Edited 2015-09-18 07:05:09]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 150):
Not sure what's the English term, this graph basically shows the development of unemployment rate of people among workforce, divided into different language groups:

That does in deed look terrible. The trend until 2008 was quite nice, but not beyond that. Do you have any data between 2011 and today?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 151):

Quickly looking I can't find any more recent data, there's only a study regarding immigrants and crime which seems to have more recent data, and that's not nice to look at either.

Here's the overall unemployment rate, including seasonal variation. Don't know how reliable it is, we have loads of people who are employed using government subsidies, and those stuck "employed" in all kinds of "practice work" programs where they get paid something like 10 euros a day.

http://www.findikaattori.fi/fi/34

Overall I think there's little chance of most of the refugees finding employment, lack of employment is definitely very bad for integration, and lack of integration leads to crime, religious radicalization and all sorts of other issues.

This is why I'm so concerned by this wave of refugees entering Finland, I can't see any meaningful future for them here. As I'm not studying to become a doctor I'm not so sure of my future in Finland either, our economy sucks and will probably only go worse- Even if it doesn't the outlook of employment for refugees will be pretty poor for a long time go come.


Anyway,

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...r-gabriel/articleshow/49009551.cms

Does this clown really think the German government has the right to define the common values of the entire continent, and what they mean in practice? Perhaps they should just rename the EU to "Fourth Reich".

[Edited 2015-09-18 09:12:59]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 152):
This is why I'm so concerned by this wave of refugees entering Finland, I can't see any meaningful future for them here.

I guess finish is a real bitch to learn and mastery takes significant time. Are there any formal language teaching programs and is the offer taken up or mostly refused?
In other words, can it be said that some/many/most try to get a footing in Finland?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 153):
guess finish is a real bitch to learn and mastery takes significant time. Are there any formal language teaching programs and is the offer taken up or mostly refused?
In other words, can it be said that some/many/most try to get a footing in Finland?

There are courses, though probably not enough. I suppose most try to learn Finnish, but from immigrants who I've talked with I've heard that it's indeed a difficult language, probably requires years of studying for those who don't happen to speak Estonian.
As can be seen from statistics I sent you before there are very significant differences in employment of different language groups, so I believe some might be more motivated to study than others. For example in many East Asian cultures education and hard work are highly respected, so immigrants from those areas tend to do well compared to most others. Socioeconomic background and education received in country of origin are also important factors, and those tend to be pretty poor for refugees from Africa / Middle East which also explains the difficulties they face with integration.

This year it's expected that Finland will receive a total of around 30 000 asylum seekers, around 50% of whom get to stay if the rate remains the same as in previous years. I'm afraid that soon we might have tens of thousands more young people with nothing to do, no hope for a meaningful future. As history has shown that's a very, very bad thing, even more so when they are mostly young men as in this case.

[Edited 2015-09-18 09:30:45]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 154):
There are courses, though probably not enough. I suppose most try to learn Finnish, but from immigrants who I've talked with I've heard that it's indeed a difficult language, probably requires years of studying for those who don't happen to speak Estonian.

A friend of mine, speaking five languages already, tried to learn it because she liked the band Värttinä, and gave up after a year.
I guess Mongolian is also a good starting point, but not many refugees from there.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 154):
I'm afraid that soon we might have tens of thousands more young people with nothing to do, no hope for a meaningful future. As history has shown that's a very, very bad thing, even more so when they are mostly young men as in this case.

And especially if Salafists gain access to them. idle mind devil's workshop.

Best regards
Thomas
 
Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125):
If the Germans really feel that way then they should lay on flights from Turkey direct to Germany so all the countries along the route don't have to put up with all these people. With direct flights they could also decide who is a refugee and who isn't at the point of embarkation, that would save a lot of people a long walk, and save a few lives as well.

That's actually a suggestion by Prof. Hans Rosling, who blames it on an EU directive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO0IRsfrPQ4

I do agree that it would be better to relocate the "decision point" about asylum to outside of the EU borders. But that would require all EU countries to cooperate, and to agree to a shared responsibility for the people that do get accepted.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125):
Seriously what right has Germany got to dictate to other European countries?

Germany doesn't dictate anything. The right of asylum is a fundamental human right that all UN members are bound by; thus all EU member states.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 122):
How is it Nazi terminology?

The idea that some races are "healthy" and some are "degenerate" is a founding idea of Nazi ideology. A race is "healthy" if it strives for its self-preservation, i.e. antagonizes other, weaker races which nonetheless try to undermine and "infect" the healthy races. In Nazi ideology, obviously the Aryans are the strongest and purest race and the Jews are the lowest and most degenerated.

"All occurrences in world history are only expression of the races’ instinct for self-preservation." is one of the famous quotes from Mein Kampf.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 122):
Filling your country with refugees from a very different culture is unarguably a bad thing for the economy and safety

Not that I disagree, but do you have a credible source for that? Or is it based on a feeling?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 142):
In many cases this is good investment, as they will stay here and work here later in their professions.

Correct; or, if they do go back to their home countries, they may retain a general positive attitude towards Germany. Perhaps one day they may be in a leading position and, say, favour a German supplier over someone else even though the German supplier might be a little more expensive. Who knows.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 152):
Overall I think there's little chance of most of the refugees finding employment, lack of employment is definitely very bad for integration, and lack of integration leads to crime, religious radicalization and all sorts of other issues.

This is why I'm so concerned by this wave of refugees entering Finland, I can't see any meaningful future for them here.

I quite agree. I'm surrounded by people who are incredibly positive about the refugee situation. Just today I had a bit of a debate with my coworkers. In their minds, if we just put up enough effort, we can integrate refugees, teach them German and give them jobs. I admire my coworker's optimism, but I just don't see that we suddenly provide millions of jobs for low-skilled foreigners. I'm very pessimistic about that.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 156):
Not that I disagree, but do you have a credible source for that? Or is it based on a feeling?

Statistics I linked here before + this crime statistic:

http://www.optula.om.fi/material/att...ja/XZ5bk8f2H/265_Lehti_ym_2014.pdf

According to a net I don't have permission to access this server, and it also deleted my whole post... Why can't this site work properly?

Meanwhile in Sweden, is this really not a parody?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af8_1442521119

[Edited 2015-09-18 10:34:09]

As an addition:

Quoting Rara (Reply 156):
The idea that some races are "healthy" and some are "degenerate" is a founding idea of Nazi ideology. A race is "healthy" if it strives for its self-preservation, i.e. antagonizes other, weaker races which nonetheless try to undermine and "infect" the healthy races. In Nazi ideology, obviously the Aryans are the strongest and purest race and the Jews are the lowest and most degenerated.

"All occurrences in world history are only expression of the races’ instinct for self-preservation." is one of the famous quotes from Mein Kampf.

Yes, however I was referring to cultures, not to races. I believe person's skin colour and genetics are irrelevant, we are all equal human beings. However we are very much influenced by the environment we born into, people from different societies will often end up with very different values and world view. When people with very different ideas meet a conflict of some kind is bound to happen.


[Edited 2015-09-18 11:29:59]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 157):
Why can't this site work properly?

use a link shortener for links a.net won't let you post, and the error goes away.

Quoting Rara (Reply 156):
i.e. antagonizes other, weaker races which nonetheless try to undermine and "infect" the healthy races. I

and on that cue: Oh my god, they bring disease:
http://libertynews.com/2015/09/and-t...arn-of-refugees-spreading-disease/

Now that headline is a masterpiece of spinning a very real problem in refugee camps.

Best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 154):
For example in many East Asian cultures education and hard work are highly respected, so immigrants from those areas tend to do well compared to most others. Socioeconomic background and education received in country of origin are also important factors, and those tend to be pretty poor for refugees from Africa / Middle East which also explains the difficulties they face with integration.

We currently have a bunch of Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi aircraft mechanic trainees working in our company, all young men in their early 20s. I have worked with a few of them and they are what I expect, a mixed bunch, some keen and eager to learn (and I predict that they will have a great future), others so-so and some lazy and not interested, just like a class of German trainees I was teaching a few years ago.
One Indian guy caused a lot of amusement when he asked how much an EASA C licenced engineer would receive here, as he planned to have reached this level at the age of 25 (somebody with a C-licence is signing the final release after heavy maintenance, e.g. a C or D-check. While theoretically five years as a B1 and experience in heavy maintenance is enough, the C-licenced engineers here are usually those with 20 or so years of experience,who is supervising a heavy check). He just wants to have a cushy, but wellpaid desk job and he doesn't want to go through all the hard and dirty work of gaining experience. I think that our fellow Indian A.netter Mel (whom I respect a lot) would give this guy the verbal equivalent of a slap.

The other guys are getting on well with each other, e.g. taking over the village football pitch once a week to play some games of cricket (and probably teaching it to the German village youth) and mixing with the younger German mechanics in their off time.

Jan

[Edited 2015-09-18 11:28:01]

[Edited 2015-09-18 11:28:45]
 
lewis
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 158):
Oh my god, they bring disease

Why the need to present a well known and real issue as bad propaganda? Populations coming from areas with high prevalence of Dangue Fever, Yellow Fever, Measles and other illnesses, different sanitary conditions and healthcare coverage can bring that to other areas while on the move. It is neither racist or paranoid to talk about that fact. Nobody is saying they are "infecting us" on purpose but disease tends to cross the borders all the time when a carrier also crosses borders. Next time you are asked to have extra vaccinations when traveling to certain areas of the world refuse and then tell them how racist that request is.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 158):
Now that headline is a masterpiece of spinning a very real problem in refugee camps.

Which would be? Do you think that hundreds of thousands of people moving from many areas of the world do not bring anything with them? Sanitary conditions in camps also play part but that is not the only issue.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 160):
Why the need to present a well known and real issue as bad propaganda? Populations coming from areas with high prevalence of Dangue Fever, Yellow Fever, Measles and other illnesses, different sanitary conditions and healthcare coverage can bring that to other areas while on the move. It is neither racist or paranoid to talk about that fact. Nobody is saying they are "infecting us" on purpose but disease tends to cross the borders all the time when a carrier also crosses borders. Next time you are asked to have extra vaccinations when traveling to certain areas of the world refuse and then tell them how racist that request is.

For Dengue fever, Malaria or Yellow Fever to spread you need certain mosquitoes, which don't exist in Europe (ok, Malaria used to be present in swampy areas of Italy, but the Anopheles mosquito has been erradicated there).
TB is a risk, but we have a problem with this already from immigrants from Russia. Measles has always existed here (I had it when I was a child).

Jan
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 160):
Sanitary conditions in camps also play part but that is not the only issue.

According to experts, like the RKI, there is no relevant risk to the general population and only a slightly elevated risk to people working in the camps. So, it is just the condition of the camps.

Unfortunately their bulletins to medical staff are only published in German: http://www.rki.de/DE/Content/Infekt/...uchende.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

The only human to human transferable sickness a Syrian refugee may bring with him is Meningitis, and we already have that anyways. So, no extra risk.

The beef of the the article says pretty much that, the clickbait headline spins it as if they would bring actual spreadable disease with them.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
fashionable" to be one of the naive supporters

In my view this is a classic case of fashion; it is feel-good politcs. Look how great we are ! ! !

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
apart from "repaying" a historic debt that is not a debt that should be paid by a generation that has nothing to do with what has happened 70 years ago.

It's gratifying to see someone else recognise the big role of German history in all this.

The other big inner psychological need I would add is the self-proclaimed EUropean approach to world affaires as being superior to the American approach: the Americans use weapons but we Europeans use love! This is the perfect chance to show everyone that inviting Muslims to Europe in great numbers is going to solve problems better than the Americans who simply bomb Muslims!

All people everywhere are good and simply want peace=EUrope will prove this to America soon! HaHa, America looks stupid and we look smart!

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 139):
one extreme to the other,

Agreed.

Europe didn't like what's-his-name and now when Germany swings to the opposite extreme Europe doesn't like it either. It's so frustrating ! Moderation is hard to objectively define so it's hard for very objective mindsets to embrace.








Pu.
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 144):
Because his mantra is "don't trust the media"
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 144):
unless he talked to every German or conducted a scientific poll

How am I supposed to trust them when their reporting is so one-sided, manipulative and often consists of blatant lies? I don't need to take a complete survey, there are enough samples available that give a good impression of the population.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 143):

Don't worry too much about Europe – worry about Germany if you like. Migrants won't go to any other country even though the borders are open. What is happening here is genocide in slow motion, seemingly encouraged by our own government. Things could not be worse at the moment.

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Edited 2015-09-18 13:24:52]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 164):
How am I supposed to trust them when their reporting is so one-sided, manipulative and often consists of blatant lies?

Back check them. It has never been easier to do than today.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 164):
What is happening here is genocide in slow motion, seemingly encouraged by our government. Things could not be worse at the moment.

Excuse me? Genocide? Did I miss some gas chambers going up, mass shootings, ethnic cleaning? How do you slow-mo genocide? Flu-shots?
The only slow-mo risk here is gerontocide.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 165):
Excuse me? Genocide? Did I miss some gas chambers going up, mass shootings, ethnic cleaning? How do you slow-mo genocide? Flu-shots?

Look at China and Tibet, that's kind of a cultural genocide through Chinese mass immigration rather than mass killings. But myself I really wouldn't call mass immigration to Europe a genocide either, after all we are living in democracies and it's up to European people to decide what kind of governance and policies they want through parliamentary elections. Tibetans don't have that privilege, and that's what makes it a cultural genocide. If we keep voting idiots into power and that eventually destroys our culture it's a form of cultural suicide rather than cultural genocide.

[Edited 2015-09-18 13:40:06]
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 165):
Back check them. It has never been easier to do than today.

All the time, as do many others.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 165):
Genocide? Did I miss some gas chambers going up, mass shootings, ethnic cleaning?

That's why I said slow motion. The people we're taking in at the moment, they're the ones who slaughtered and banished all 'non-believers' in their home countries. There used to be sizeable Christian populations in the Middle East, not anymore. Those who have remained live in fear of persecution and death. There have also been numerous reports of Muslims going after Christians who also fled in German refugee homes. Now they're coming in masses (millions!). Are you so naive to believe we're going to live in peace forever?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 165):
The only slow-mo risk here is gerontocide.

We don't need migrants to fix this, but sensible policies.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 167):
The people we're taking in at the moment, they're the ones who slaughtered and banished all 'non-believers' in their home countries. There used to be sizeable Christian populations in the Middle East, not anymore. Those who have remained live in fear of persecution and death.

please edit this page and add the missing ethnic cleansings in the ME: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansings

Which ME country are you specifically refering to? http://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/...port-religious-freedom-middle-east

best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2015-09-18 14:20:49]
 
Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 164):
"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Check your sources.

http://www.metabunk.org/debunked-in-...hing-happens-by-accident-fdr.t336/

Really, generally, check your sources. All your sources.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 168):

That list seems seriously outdated, I can't even find a mention of ISIS killing and forcefully converting Yazidis which to me counts as an ethnic cleansing.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 170):
That list seems seriously outdated

Really, what cued you to that idea? The big, fat date in the beginning perhaps?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 170):
I can't even find a mention of ISIS killing and forcefully converting Yazidis which to me counts as an ethnic cleansing.

How is that even relevant to the issue discused? The refugees are the ones trying to get away from ISIS. There is context to the posting after all.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 171):
Really, what cued you to that idea? The big, fat date in the beginning perhaps?

Didn't notice one.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 171):
How is that even relevant to the issue discused? The refugees are the ones trying to get away from ISIS. There is context to the posting after all.

Some of them might be ex ISIS fighters too, or ISIS fighters sent to Europe for some future operations.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 172):
Some of them might be ex ISIS fighters too, or ISIS fighters sent to Europe for some future operations.

So? Aside of the fact that law enforcement agencies agree coming as a refugee would be much to dangerous by terrorist standards and they would rather come by plane anyways, where is any indication whatsoever that any operation planned by ISIS in Europe would be contingent on refugee movements?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 173):
So? Aside of the fact that law enforcement agencies agree coming as a refugee would be much to dangerous by terrorist standards and they would rather come by plane anyways, where is any indication whatsoever that any operation planned by ISIS in Europe would be contingent on refugee movements?

And you/they know there is not, How? Of course the law enforcement agencies you mention are who? How would they know, is ISIS briefing them on tactics? I wonder if maybe the Europeans are torturing them at black sites. You should know that is inhumane, even for terrorists who maim and kill. Not saying of course, just speculating how the law enforcement agencies you mention are gathering their intel.
 
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OA260
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:10 am

Hungary Accuses Croatia Of 'Human Smuggling'

Hungary accuses Croatia of breaking international law, as Slovenian riot police use pepper spray on migrants massed at its border.


Hungary has accused Croatia of committing "a major violation of international law" by trying to transport 1,000 migrants by train across its border.

Budapest described the unannounced arrival as a "major, major incident" - and alleged 40 police officers accompanying the migrants had to be disarmed and sent back.

http://news.sky.com/story/1555206/hu...accuses-croatia-of-human-smuggling
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 174):
And you/they know there is not, How?

by reasoning, again, since you missed it in the posting you did quote, because coming in with refugees is actually more dangerous than the usual way for terrorists to come in: flying.
If you have a paper door, the quality of the lock you put on it is completely inconsequential.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 174):
Of course the law enforcement agencies you mention are who?

BND. "it is still unlikely that terrorists would attempt to recklessly cross the Mediterranean in a boat to get to Europe. They could do that with false or stolen papers and a plane ticket much more easily."

And let's not forget they probably have four digit numbers of fighters with valid EU papers.

And I think i asked you before, what makes you think that any ISIS plan is contingent on sneaking fighters in with refugees? That is just logistics after all.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 174):
I wonder if maybe the Europeans are torturing them at black sites.

Nah, even if some people have forgotten that torture is useless to get information, your country has demonstrated such astounding success with your CIA folks in making even people remember things that are not real...

"Likewise, what I have learned is that as the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002—well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion—its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa'ida. So furious was this effort that on one particular detainee, even when the interrogation team had reported to Cheney's office that their detainee "was compliant" (meaning the team recommended no more torture), the VP's office ordered them to continue the enhanced methods. The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa'ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, "revealed" such contacts. Of course, later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop."

Colonel Lawrence B. Wilkerson, Senate Armed Services Committee, Inquiry Into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody, Senate Armed Services Committee, November 20, 2008

best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 176):
by reasoning, again, since you missed it in the posting you did quote, because coming in with refugees is actually more dangerous than the usual way for terrorists to come in: flying.

Which airline do they use to transport all those Kalashnikov's and explosives to Europe? Qatar or Saudi Arabian?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 177):
Which airline do they use to transport all those Kalashnikov's and explosives to Europe? Q

Buy local. Much easier to conceal 600 Euro for an AK with some magazines than .. well.. an AK47 with some magazines.
An RPG-7 sets you back 1500 € if you want it to have shelf live left, or as little as 500 if it's old. An SA-7 manpad costs you about the same.
Or just DHL surface ship them....
Explosives of all sorts can be made at home after arrival too, and they can practice that skill before departure. Semtex is pretty expensive to buy in the black market, a Kilogramm sets you back a full squads worth of assult rifles.

Best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 178):
Explosives of all sorts can be made at home after arrival too, and they can practice that skill before departure. Semtex is pretty expensive to buy in the black market, a Kilogramm sets you back a full squads worth of assult rifles.

Who uses Semtex? Modern Semtex has, unlik the old version of the 1970s, tracers, which allow detectors or dogs to notice it.
There are thousands of tons of mining and engineering explosives moving arounjd through Europe every month. Or you can rob a military ammo dump. Just steal some Eurodyn, Gelamon or any other commercial explosive.

Or you could look for dud WW2 or WW1 ammo and get the explosives from there (has already been done, check Dagobert, the blackmailer).

Jan
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14636
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 179):
There are thousands of tons of mining and engineering explosives moving arounjd through Europe every month. Or you can rob a military ammo dump. Just steal some Eurodyn, Gelamon or any other commercial explosive.

true. Of course you are giving away that something is cooking if you break into an explosive storage facility.

Best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 180):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 179):
There are thousands of tons of mining and engineering explosives moving arounjd through Europe every month. Or you can rob a military ammo dump. Just steal some Eurodyn, Gelamon or any other commercial explosive.

true. Of course you are giving away that something is cooking if you break into an explosive storage facility.

Best regards
Thomas

As long as the authorities don'tt know who did it, they'll be blind. It might be ordinary criminals, who want to sell the stuff on the black market or it might be terrorists of any flavour, Nazis, Communists, Islamists, or separatist members of minorities. The only problem is that most commercial explosives have a rather limited use by date (e.g. six months after manufacture for gelantinous ammonia nitrate dynamites like Gelamon because then the components tend to separate (the nitroglycerine seeps down due to gravity). Military explosives are more stable and can be stored longer.

Jan
 
Luftfahrer
Posts: 966
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 168):
please edit this page and add the missing ethnic cleansings in the ME
Quoting pvjin (Reply 170):
That list seems seriously outdated, I can't even find a mention of ISIS killing and forcefully converting Yazidis which to me counts as an ethnic cleansing.

Very true. Not sure why you're so hell-bent on some random list on wikipedia, so I'll point to this article that contains lots of references.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/laur...ristians-have-50-or-greater-muslim

"Nine of the 10 countries with the worst records for persecution of Christians have populations that are at least 50 percent Muslim"

"Somalia, which ranks second on the list, has a “large majority” of Sunni Muslims"

"Iraq and Syria are third and fourth on the list with Muslim populations of 99 percent and 87 percent respectively, according to the CIA’s World Factbook."

"Afghanistan, which is fifth on the persecution list, has an 80 percent Muslim majority"

Any further questions?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 182):
Very true. Not sure why you're so hell-bent on some random list on wikipedia, so I'll point to this article that contains lots of references.

Wow! Really? A "news" site owned by the media research center quoting a Christian charity that spends 1/3 of its money to such useful things handing out free bibles is your source? How could they be biased, especially the charity, that would go bankrupt without finding prosecuted Christians.....
The article is nicely phrased to give the appearance that the US state department has any stake in its "story", which it hasn't beyond statistics.
They spend a whooping 200.000 us$/year for all they research, damn, that is almost 3000$ for each country they look at.
In the description of their scientific methodology they freely admit to influence the questioned people if they don't think they have something to contribute to a question (page 26).
They also write that, if they don't like the result or their survey, they have a look at the data to see if they can justify changing it to the outcome they like, confirmation bias much ( page 38), and that they adjust they outcome of the survey by the trend (page 37). How they identify the trend? By there own expertise....
The interviewees are not randomly chosen...... shall I go on?

Did you invest even 5 minutes to back check before posting?

And of course Christians are fleeing from Syria and Iraq, along with anyone else that wants to get away from ISIS and the Assad regime.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 183):
And of course Christians are fleeing from Syria and Iraq, along with anyone else that wants to get away from ISIS and the Assad regime.

Just a question - In the past, whenever you have a wave of refugees, you have a cross-section of population. Women, children, old people etc. Over 70% of the current wave appears to be adult men between 18 and 40. WTF???
 
910A
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184):
Just a question - In the past, whenever you have a wave of refugees, you have a cross-section of population. Women, children, old people etc. Over 70% of the current wave appears to be adult men between 18 and 40. WTF???

Do you have any sort of documentation/proof/source for this claim. On the face; it appears to be just another right wing false claim.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 183):
And of course Christians are fleeing from Syria and Iraq, along with anyone else that wants to get away from ISIS and the Assad regime.

Christians tend to support Assad as every other group hates them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184):

At least refugees that we're received from countries like Somalia over a long course of time have been mostly young men. Children and women are left behind.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 185):
Do you have any sort of documentation/proof/source for this claim. On the face; it appears to be just another right wing false claim.
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

That link is up to date, and says 69%

This screenshot from last month of the same page showed 72%, so it is moving around.

http://therightscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Screen-Shot-2015-09-08-at-9.59.12-PM-e1441764042684.jpg
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 185):

In year 2014 71.5% of refugees arriving to Finland were men according to this reliable source:

http://www.mtv.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/ar...-neljasta-alle-34-vuotaita/5200316

54,9% of refugees arriving here in 2014 were aged between 18-34, 23% were under age of 18.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184):
Women, children, old people etc. Over 70% of the current wave appears to be adult men between 18 and 40. WTF???

Two words: "family reunification". Leave wife and kids behind at the first save stop, the men move onwards, once granted asylum they can get their families. Parents often stay behind, because they are to old to be bothered by extremists, and also follow later. And they can just fly in instead of the dangerous trip. In 2013 44.000 family reunification visa's where handed out, compare that to about 60.000 people granted asylum and other permissions to stay and you end up with a much more even picture. But, since they have an actual visa, they drop out of any refugee statistic.

Wives joining a 3rd nation husbandso outnumber husbands joining a 3rd nation wifes by a factor of 2 to 4, in the case of Syria 8:1 in 2012 (last report, unfortunately not in English).



best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:07 pm

But I have read that there are already issues with rapes in overcrowded reception centers. I would separate women and children (and maybe families) and quarter them separately from those single, young , testosterone filled males.
Also, any offence should be a direct ticket back to the Middle East, if necessary by helicopter to some Syrian beach. e don't need people like this here.

Jan
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14636
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 190):
But I have read that there are already issues with rapes in overcrowded reception centers.

"but"? Like Dreadnought said, you get a slice of society, that unfortunately includes rapists, thiefs, murders, con man and so on.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 190):
I would separate women and children (and maybe families) and quarter them separately from those single, young , testosterone filled males.

That would be splendid, but some places don't even manage separate sanitary facilities.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 190):
Also, any offence should be a direct ticket back to the Middle East, if necessary by helicopter to some Syrian beach. e don't need people like this here.

Well, unconstitutional, but a swift trial would be good, and we still have plenty of old prisons ... just right for people being that greatful for our hospitality. Taking them back would come with a real risk of them ending up fighting for extremists, they do have this cute "fight for us or die a horrible death" policy after all.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 190):

At least here families are usually given separate places to stay.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 191):
Well, unconstitutional, but a swift trial would be good, and we still have plenty of old prisons ... just right for people being that greatful for our hospitality. Taking them back would come with a real risk of them ending up fighting for extremists, they do have this cute "fight for us or die a horrible death" policy after all.

Unfortunately at least our prisons are so good that they really aren't a punishment at all for somebody coming from an area like Iraq, Syria or Somalia. Forced labour camps would be good for immigrants (and natives) who commit crimes like murder and rape, but then you'v got clowns from Amnesty Intl and such protesting. So I suppose we really have no way of punishing refugees who commit crime if we can't return them back.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14636
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 192):
Forced labour camps

forced labour camps in Germany? As likely as the non-existing, hell freezing over for the obvious reasons.
Normal prison process here: you get the essentials, for anything else you have to work. Want a TV in your cell, well, go work and buy one. Life in German prisons can be really nice, if you forget being locked up, lots of private stuff in your cell, vacation from prison, and such.... if you work, behave, join the programs you are asked to join (like education) and so on, but very dull if you don't.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 189):
Two words: "family reunification". Leave wife and kids behind at the first save stop, the men move onwards, once granted asylum they can get their families. Parents often stay behind, because they are to old to be bothered by extremists, and also follow later.

Well that just flies in the face of all the people trying to call them refugees. Refugees are people fleeing for their lives. If they are acting as you say, they are nothing more than economic migrants, and the number of permits allocated should not exceed whatever the usual quota is per year.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 191):
Well, unconstitutional, but a swift trial would be good, and we still have plenty of old prisons ...

If I, as a foreigner, commit any sort of crime in Germany, I would think that it would be perfectly acceptable if Germany, deciding that they don't want to deal with me, put me on a plane, ship or train to my home country with a warning of "Don't ever show your face here again." It is perfectly reasonable. You are a guest in the host country, and if you are not on your best behavior, they have every right to throw you out.
 
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Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 194):
Refugees are people fleeing for their lives. If they are acting as you say, they are nothing more than economic migrants,

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. Are people only starting to realize this now?

I'm glad more and more people are finally realizing what is really happening instead of reading the happy messages being cycled through media outlets. But unfortunately, I think it's a bit too late since the mass migration has begun and will hardly stop in the coming years.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 195):
I'm glad more and more people are finally realizing what is really happening instead of reading the happy messages being cycled through media outlets. But unfortunately, I think it's a bit too late since the mass migration has begun and will hardly stop in the coming years.

There are about 5 billion poor people (by Western standards) in the world. Are we supposed to feed and clothe all 5 billion? Why do they deserve such offers?

The welfare states were designed for the democratic voters who politically organized and funded them. They were not promised to the 5 billion global poor. If I economically migrate to my local Porsche dealer, do I have the right to just rush in and take the keys? Because I yearn to own a new Porsche? Is yearning the same as a human right?
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 189):
Leave wife and kids behind at the first save stop, the men move onwards, once granted asylum they can get their families. Parents often stay behind, because they are to old to be bothered by extremists, and also follow later.

If its safe to "leave the wife and kids behind" and it is possible for adults not "to be bothered by extremists," I'd like for you to explain why Germany or Europe has such a moral imperative to

1. do something immediately, and,
2. offer asylum

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 194):
Well that just flies in the face of all the people trying to call them refugees.

We can agree on something important. Good catch of someone else's logical fallacy and fraudulent nomenclature.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 195):
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. Are people only starting to realize this now?

We can agree on something important.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 196):
Are we supposed to feed and clothe all 5 billion

Actually, I think we are, from a moral point of view - or religious point of view if you believe in God. I for one believe this mainly has to occur in their own countries. To me it seems largely a matter of convincing them to insist on representative governments, value things like birth control and education and in general losing the helpless victim mentality.







Pu.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14636
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 194):
Refugees are people fleeing for their lives.

And no-one could possible want more than mere survival, right? You are a refugee when you flee your home, your status doesn't change just because you try to make the best of it.
But I guess you would happly sit in a shitty refugee camp and tell your kids: "sorry, you can't go to school, because we wouldn't be refugees anymore if we try to go anywhere with schools."

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 194):
If I, as a foreigner, commit any sort of crime in Germany, I would think that it would be perfectly acceptable if Germany, deciding that they don't want to deal with me, put me on a plane, ship or train to my home country with a warning of

Since I pointed out that many of those returned will be forced to fight for ISIS or another extemism group that position does make you an ISIS supporter, doesn't it? Or is it that you just don't care when muslims get murdered?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 196):
Why do they deserve such offers?

If you consider yourself a Christian, Matthew 25:36 comes to mind...
But I take it you are on the "what do I care if they get murdered" side?

But why? Because that is the law, the same btw in your country than in mine, a refugee is:

Quote:
"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.

Signatory parties are required to offer protection to those,you can't send them back either:

Quote:
No Contracting State shall expel or return ('refouler') a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social or political opinion

That part is binding even for not signatory states btw.

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14636
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 197):
2. offer asylum

It is the law. If you are not familiar what "law" means, especially at a constitutional level, why don't you look it up.

Quoting pu (Reply 197):
If its safe to "leave the wife and kids behind" and it is possible for adults not "to be bothered by extremists," I'd like for you to explain why Germany or Europe has such a moral imperative to

1. do something immediately, and,

You are smart, I am sure you can figure that one out if you get over your xenophobia. It would help to read something about refugess, since the repeated "why only men" question shows clear lack in that department.

Best regards
Thomas

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