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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 198):
"sorry, you can't go to school, because we wouldn't be refugees anymore if we try to go anywhere with schools."

Turkey doesn't have schools? Serbia doesn't have schools? Hungary doesn't have schools? Lebanon doesn't have schools? Pakistan doesn't have schools?
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 199):
It is the law.

I'm glad you pointed this out because it's important for everyone to understand the different points of view here:

1. Tommy's approach (IMO a symptom of German culture) - the law is the uncompromising guiding force for our behavior since we cannot trust the individual to act correctly on their own without guidance from the state. The law provides its own legitimacy because it is the law.


v.


2. Pu's approach (IMO a symptom of non-German culture) - the law is a tool put in place to serve, not command our national policies since individuals can usually be trusted to act correctly on their own without guidance from the state. Laws are only legitimate when the people believe they serve a useful purpose.




In other words, laws can be wrong. They never justify policy simply because they carry the force of law. Democracies are not afraid to say laws are wrong. It doesn't mean Hitler is sure to follow the minute we admit laws can be wrong.

Laws must hold value from some other justification besides the fact that they are laws.


.
.

Pu.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 200):
Turkey doesn't have schools? Serbia doesn't have schools? Hungary doesn't have schools? Lebanon doesn't have schools? Pakistan doesn't have schools?

No, they all set up proper education centers in all refugee camps, even those where they don't even manage to set up enough sanitary facilities.

http://bfy.tw/1sZf

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 202):
No, they all set up proper education centers in all refugee camps, even those where they don't even manage to set up enough sanitary facilities.

We wonder why the world is screwed up, my goodness how stupid is that? How can one support this and be taken seriously? Europe is doomed if there are too many who do.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 202):

Instead of playing the ridiculously childish "let me google that for you" game, you should just engage in conversation normally. Now, I don't think anyone was talking about education in refugee camps. I was personally referring to available education in those countries in general.

When you have an influx (or even a healthy amount of migrants) entering your country, the refugee application and acceptance process is a very long and tedious process. We are talking about thousands of people that need to be integrated into society. It is simply naive and unrealistic to think that immediately upon being granted the "asylum" status, migrants should and will have access to everything available to long time standing residents and citizens.

Educational facilities do need to be set up in the centers, migrants need to be understanding about it and take what is given until time passes and they are allowed more rights. Not sure how it is elsewhere, but here in Austria asylum seekers aren't allowed to work full time either, only a certain amount of hours a month. This takes time. The longer they stay here, the longer they integrate, the more availability is opened up. This is a natural process. You can't flood the educational sector and jobs with thousands of new people a day. All the safe countries that they have already been to and chose not to stay in, have schools for their children, even if they cannot attend immediately this second. According to them, they went through a tough migration journey, so it should be understandable that their chosen path takes time.

Your argument about wanting to go to where they have schools for their children is also a bit strange, are you saying they will have full access to everything provided in Germany? Reading your posts, it seems like you are head forward on this opinionated topic and welcome these folks with open hands, regardless of amounts and what the potential outcome will be for your country.

Will be very interesting to talk to you in a decade's time to see how you feel them when the immigration policies start to have terrifying consequences.
 
Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 194):
Well that just flies in the face of all the people trying to call them refugees. Refugees are people fleeing for their lives. If they are acting as you say, they are nothing more than economic migrants, and the number of permits allocated should not exceed whatever the usual quota is per year.
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 195):
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

So the other day, I saw that guy on TV who came here from Syria. He had lived in a city controlled by the Islamic State. He had several run-ins with them. Once they caught him smoking on his balcony (apparently smoking tobacco is forbidden in the Islamic State) which earned him a thorough beating. Another time they told him they had seen his 12-year old daughter without a hijab. They told him in no unclear terms that the next time he'd be caught doing something "un-Islamic" he'd be hung from the next tree. So he decided he didn't want to live under such oppression anymore, left his wife and daughter with his in-laws and left for Europe. When he was interviewed, he was in the process of arranging passage for them to follow.

So, your verdict, gentlemen? There was no running involved, no "fleeing for their lives". Had he stayed in Syria, he might have easily stayed alive as well. Or possibly not. Should we send them back?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 196):
There are about 5 billion poor people (by Western standards) in the world. Are we supposed to feed and clothe all 5 billion? Why do they deserve such offers?

How about they deserve not to be f*cked up by us? Tell me ONE currect conflict that wasn't in some way instigated by us (a.k.a. the developed world)? We base our wealth and prosperity on exploitation. We deal with modern slave owners just to save a penny on our new running shoes. We (Germany especially) sell weapons all over the world, the worst dictators included. We live in what must seem an unfathomable luxury to people in Africa and parts of Asia, and we broadcast our wealth all over the world via TV, movies and the internet. And then we're surprised when the impoverished majority of the world's population comes knocking on our borders?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 205):
So the other day, I saw that guy on TV who came here from Syria. He had lived in a city controlled by the Islamic State. He had several run-ins with them. Once they caught him smoking on his balcony (apparently smoking tobacco is forbidden in the Islamic State) which earned him a thorough beating. Another time they told him they had seen his 12-year old daughter without a hijab. They told him in no unclear terms that the next time he'd be caught doing something "un-Islamic" he'd be hung from the next tree. So he decided he didn't want to live under such oppression anymore, left his wife and daughter with his in-laws and left for Europe. When he was interviewed, he was in the process of arranging passage for them to follow.

So, your verdict, gentlemen? There was no running involved, no "fleeing for their lives". Had he stayed in Syria, he might have easily stayed alive as well. Or possibly not. Should we send them back?

It is quite normal for the male (or one of the males) of a family to go out first and scout for a safe place for the rest to follow. I have done it myself, when I went to Ireland to look for work there (only that my then-wife decided that she preferred to stay in a big city in Germany with her friends, with me sending over 50% of my income every month over living in a provincial town at the Irish west coast). The plan was that I would go over alone, get myself established in the new job (probation time etc.) and look for a proper place for us, she and the kids would follow.

It even seems to be a human instinct.

The story reminds me of the German Jews in the late 1930s, when the noose slowly tightened. Some saw it coming and managed to escape (e.g. to the UK), while others waited too long and ended up in Auschwitz.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:40 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 205):
So, your verdict, gentlemen?

From the details you provide it seems his only problem was inability to smoke and the daughters rejection of a headscarf.

Smoking bans and mandatory headgear do not create a valid asylum seeker. He simply prefers the freedoms and lifestyle European society has built for itself. He doesn't want to risk his own life fighting for himself and his family.






Pu.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:50 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 205):
So, your verdict, gentlemen? There was no running involved, no "fleeing for their lives". Had he stayed in Syria, he might have easily stayed alive as well. Or possibly not. Should we send them back?

Dude, sometimes writing on this forum is like speaking to a wall. Who on here said that Europe shouldn't take in the poor refugees fleeing from war in Syria?

Over and over again, it has been mentioned and understood that Europe is doing the right thing by letting in *real* Syrian refugees. The line is drawn there.

It is already well known that most of the folks, streaming into Europe daily by the tens of thousands are taking advantage of the situation. Conveniently "losing" their documents and pushing their way into Europe from countries where they were already "safe" and not fleeing active war zones. They pick and choose the country they prefer and riot if they are stopped and told they can't proceed to Germany and Scandinavia. This is not ok, and frankly a result of poor planning on Europe's part (in this case, without anyone doubting, all initiated by Germany).

We keep seeing sob stories like yours of people running away from horror. By all means, let these people in and figure out a way to distribute them. But make Germany take in the majority since they started this mess without barely any cooperation and talks with fellow EU members.

Now, Syria has a population of 23 million; Iraq - 33 million; Afghanistan - almost 31 millions. Just bringing up these three since they seem to constantly top the statistics numbers for refugee's originating countries. The doors to Europe and a "better life" have been opened. Where do you draw the line to ensure that this mass of people doesn't continue to stream into your continent over the course of the coming years?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 204):
I was personally referring to available education in those countries in general.

Of course they have schools. Only that has nothing to do with what i said. Refugees want decent education for their kids, like all parents should, they don´t get it where they are stuck, hence they move on to where the prospects are better.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 204):
Your argument about wanting to go to where they have schools for their children is also a bit strange, are you saying they will have full access to everything provided in Germany?

Refugee kids actually do have the right to attend school, and are required to attend school after conditions varying from state to state are met (from immediately in Hamburg to after having legal status in Berlin). Failure to send kids to school may result in jail time for parents.
Even if you do not get a permanent status and only a suspension of deportation, asylum seekers have the right to go to university just like anyone else, if they meet the educational requirements.
In fact anyone meeting those requirements, that is in Germany legally with something other than a tourist visum, can go to university. My US friends two daughters learn German, just because getting an Masters degree in Germany costs you about 10k/US$/year, 95% of which are living expenses.... and heck, there are even programs these days completely in English.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 204):
Will be very interesting to talk to you in a decade's time to see how you feel them when the immigration policies start to have terrifying consequences.

I heard that one decades ago. My parents heard that one decades before me. Their parents heard that one before them. Heck, every generation since 1871 did. It gets old.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 208):
Over and over again, it has been mentioned and understood that Europe is doing the right thing by letting in *real* Syrian refugees. The line is drawn there.

Maybe you are smart enough to develop a tricorder that can tell real refugees and fake-refugees apart in seconds. That would be very helpful.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:55 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
Refugees want decent education for their kids, like all parents should, they don´t get it where they are stuck, hence they move on to where the prospects are better.

They do get it where they are stuck. Again, Turkey, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia and everyone else in this list have "decent" education.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
and are required to attend school after conditions varying from state to state are met

Exactly. Key word is 'once conditions are met' - something that every asylum seeker needs to know they'll go through. They can't waltz in and immediately have everything. My personal favorite are pictures of migrants with signs saying "give us documents" - their expectations are oh so high right after they arrive. These governments don't owe them anything, they are accepting them out of gratitude and because people are coming together to help. Anyway, so once they wait out, get registered, acquire status and right along with it, then they will start attending schools. Just because they might have it immediately handed to them on a golden platter in Hamburg, doesn't mean that Germany and their citizens owe it to every migrant out there to come in and use it. Your education system will collapse.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
I heard that one decades ago. My parents heard that one decades before me. Their parents heard that one before them. Heck, every generation since 1871 did. It gets old.

Apples and oranges. Your parents and grandparents weren't dealing with the same conditions we are now.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
Maybe you are smart enough to develop a tricorder that can tell real refugees and fake-refugees apart in seconds. That would be very helpful.

Maybe this should have been thought about BEFORE Germany opened its mouth and essentially welcomed everyone in? Now, you guys have conveniently closed your borders when things got rough. Previously people in Munich were arriving by the thousands. In the past week or so, this dwindled down to hundreds a day, sometimes barely over a hundred daily arriving into the train station in Munich. Again, so convenient for Bavaria, as they host Oktoberfest. All while your friendly EU and non-EU neighbors to the south are struggling with an enormous daily influx of arrivals who are being bottlenecked and remain stuck and squished in these countries. Way to go, Germany.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 210):
Exactly. Key word is 'once conditions are met' - something that every asylum seeker needs to know they'll go through.

Read again what i wrote:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
Refugee kids actually do have the right to attend school

They CAN go immediately, they have the right, they HAVE to after certain conditions are met, they have no right to opt out.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 210):
They do get it where they are stuck. Again, Turkey, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia and everyone else in this list have "decent" education.

Not in refugee camps they don´t.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 210):
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
I heard that one decades ago. My parents heard that one decades before me. Their parents heard that one before them. Heck, every generation since 1871 did. It gets old.

Apples and oranges. Your parents and grandparents weren't dealing with the same conditions we are now.

Do you think that the 12 million Germans, who were kicked out from today's Poland, Russia or the Czech Republic after WW2 were welcomed here in Western Germany? They were called the Polacken or other derogatory terms and were accused of getting privileged housing and food ration cards.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 212):
Do you think that the 12 million Germans, who were kicked out from today's Poland, Russia or the Czech Republic after WW2 were welcomed here in Western Germany?

fyi: that is equivalent to taking in 20 million people today.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
LSZH34
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:16 pm

Pretty sad that we are actually talking about the wave of refugees on the Balkan route. It's a lot worse what's happening in Libya at the moment. Slavery on a daily routine and the EU even pays these rebels by preventing them to take a ship to Europe - not that all of these people are actually in need of asylum of course, but still. The refugees at the Hungarian border should feel blessed. Apparently a safe place to stay is not enough for these people.
 
Buckeyetech
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:16 pm

This is an invasion, pure and simple. Islam has had its eye on the takeover of Europe since the Reconquista of 1492. Europe will be a predominantly Muslim continent within the next few decades. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but this is being pushed at the highest levels from the Gulf nation governments. This imam from Jerusalem is only letting it be known how the rest of the top clerics really feel, and talk about in private.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/breed-a...-al-aqsa-preacher-exhorts-muslims/
B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 211):
They CAN go immediately, they have the right, they HAVE to after certain conditions are met, they have no right to opt out.

They have to in other places as well. Patience is a virtue and the migrants need to follow rules and established law.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 211):
Not in refugee camps they don´t.

Refugee camps are *usually* temporary. Especially in European nations. So they must wait, registration and integration happens initially. Legal statuses first then they can go about their lives and build something for themselves the way they want to.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 213):
fyi: that is equivalent to taking in 20 million people today.

Cool story, bro. You and another German poster are steadily arguing pro on this migrant debate. If you are so happy with the current situation and stand beside the current German rules concerning the asylum seekers. Please, be our guests, open your borders for all 20 million. Why the sudden border controls when you get hit with overwhelming numbers? Germany seems to be creating their own rules amidst all this. All at the expense of other countries suffering the pains.

[Edited 2015-09-20 08:55:24]
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 183):

Wow! Really? A "news" site owned by the media research center quoting a Christian charity

Wait, I'm confused. Didn't you criticize me earlier for my reluctance to believe everything the media says? Seems like you have your doubts as well.  Though I'm not sure what your point is; it appears like you're denying there is any persecution of the so-called non-believers in Islamic countries? And if it is not that, what about equal rights for men and women, gay rights, democracy – or in short all the values that are important to us? Their culture is simply not compatible with ours and this will create ever-rising tension, up to the point where it all erupts.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 216):
All at the expense of other countries suffering the pains.

And our own people. We're doomed with this government.

[Edited 2015-09-20 09:36:36]
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 216):
Refugee camps are *usually* temporary.

you highlighted right word.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 216):
Especially in European nations.
http://youtu.be/bRbmFYYbcyw
Depends on your standards, animal feeding in our Zoo's look kinder than that.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/09/11/h...bysmal-conditions-border-detention

I guess you would live there with a greatful smile on your face...

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 216):
. All at the expense of other countries suffering the pains.

Well, your government threatened to sue Hungry over refugees. I guess Austria wants others to pick up the bill.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 91):
Dear Rara, you sound like a serious victim of "Old European" propaganda.

Being a "social scientist" we should cut him some slack as such "science" is all politics and no hard facts.

Quoting pu (Reply 163):
The other big inner psychological need I would add is the self-proclaimed EUropean approach to world affaires as being superior to the American approach: the Americans use weapons but we Europeans use love! This is the perfect chance to show everyone that inviting Muslims to Europe in great numbers is going to solve problems better than the Americans who simply bomb Muslims!

Well said. See below.

Quoting Rara (Reply 205):
How about they deserve not to be f*cked up by us? Tell me ONE currect conflict that wasn't in some way instigated by us (a.k.a. the developed world)? We base our wealth and prosperity on exploitation. We deal with modern slave owners just to save a penny on our new running shoes. We (Germany especially) sell weapons all over the world, the worst dictators included. We live in what must seem an unfathomable luxury to people in Africa and parts of Asia, and we broadcast our wealth all over the world via TV, movies and the internet

Good heaven. Then move the whole Africa and Middle East to Germany if you think this will FINALLY solve your guilt issues, but why should the rest of Europe follow you in this nonsense? If I may suggest a friendly advice from a neighbor, we would love to see Germany stop bouncing from one extreme to another.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 218):
http://youtu.be/bRbmFYYbcyw
Depends on your standards, animal feeding in our Zoo's look kinder than that.

Animals in the zoo are not expected to know what standing in the line means. Perhaps you should promptly travel with Rara down there and explain all those neurosurgeons and rocket scientists this simple concept.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 218):
you highlighted right word.

Yup. Sure did. Considering we are currently talking about a mass migration of hundreds of thousands of refugees, we won't be picky, but we will rather talk about the majority of cases as a whole. So yes, the word "usually" is appropriate. There will always be deviations from the norm, as with everything else in life.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 218):
I guess Austria wants others to pick up the bill.

I'm not an Austrian citizen, only a resident, but not sure where you are going with this comment. This problem we are having on the European continent has spun out of control and unfortunately will only get worse. And while we all have a reason to show compassion and extend a helping hand to those in need, this is not an example of that. It needs to be a coordinated effort. What we have seen in the past few weeks is a problem unleashed by your government, so yes, take responsibility and pick up the bill instead of implementing border controls that make the matter even worse. Hungary, who has had enough of this nonsense is bussing people across to Austria without coordination. Of course Austria is pissed as hell, rightfully so. People are flooding in daily, yet the 'ally' to the north is restricting passage. Fantastic scenario. But don't worry, all we care about right now is that you guys have a hugely successful Oktoberfest...

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 218):
Depends on your standards, animal feeding in our Zoo's look kinder than that.

Standards? So let me get this straight... You are sitting there peacefully in your home, presumably in Germany, commenting on how atrocious the conditions are that you see in the video. You are blaming Hungary, a country of 9.9 million people for not ensuring humane enough conditions for hundreds of thousands of people that just spontaneously arrived on their land. How on earth do you even begin to justify this in your head? The amount of migrants that are on their soil is a huge chunk when compared to their size. There is no infrastructure for this, and you can't expect then to have it. Hell, your country is many times larger, and chickened out when they saw what was starting to happen. Your conditions are not equipped to handle the flow either, so you close borders. Yet you forget that practically all these people that are now in Germany went through Hungary to get. It's so incredibly naive of you to complain about said conditions in the camps.

Maybe instead of complaining, tommy1808, you can hop on a flight down there tonight and personally hand out bread to these people in a way that you deem appropriate. Then, when a huge mob of migrants descends on you to rip the food out of your hand and you get trampled on by hundreds of people against the one of you, you will quickly realize that setting up fences and resorting to throwing food into a crowd is a decent alternative for this particular instance, all things considered, so you don't lose your own life.

[Edited 2015-09-20 10:17:50]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 217):
Didn't you criticize me earlier for my reluctance to believe everything the media says?

nah, believe nothing is certainly a good approach, but replacing one possibly biased news source with a definatly biased one isn't the way to go.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 217):
Though I'm not sure what your point is; it appears like you're denying there is any persecution of the so-called non-believers in Islamic countries?

In no way, religious persecution exists almost everywhere, from almost subconscious every day racism to flat out ethnic cleansing, which is certainly currently happening in ISIS occupied territories. But a Christian Charity depending on the prosecution of Christians to stay in business, that freely admits to fiddle with their data, is not exactly a reliable source.

I am sure there are better ones, and I wouldn't even expect those to be drastically different from the WWL, but we can't know until we find a better source. Like a scientific paper that actually passed peer review, by someone else that another Christian persecution group, as in the WWL case.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 217):
And if it is not that, what about equal rights for men and women, gay rights, democracy – or in short all the values that are important to us?

Not negotiable, a kid once wanted to slit my throat when I made it sufficientmy clear that a female camp counselors word trumps Allah just as much as mine.
I don't think democracy is a problem for most of them, equal rights for women and gays need a lot of consciousness improvement and education. Nothing improves gender equality faster than education.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 221):
I don't think democracy is a problem for most of them, equal rights for women and gays need a lot of consciousness improvement and education. Nothing improves gender equality faster than education.

From ME you can find quite many countries with high level of education and extremely low level of gender equality.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:28 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 220):
You are blaming Hungary, a country of 9.9 million people for not ensuring humane enough conditions for hundreds of thousands of people that just spontaneously arrived on their land. How on earth do you even begin to justify this in your head?

See, you do realize that we can't just stick them to Hungry. What you just describe is part of the justification for the current, well, last weeks, policy.
They are small, they don't have the economic power, we have to let them offload. Same is true for Greece, they are in no shape to handle those refugees.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 223):

Every country should pay equally low benefits to the refugees, that would reduce the flood and allow more fair distribution. Currently refugees go where they get the most money.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 223):
See, you do realize that we can't just stick them to Hungry. What you just describe is part of the justification for the current, well, last weeks, policy.

Huh? When was this even part of the conversation? Of course we can't stick them to Hungary/Croatia/Austria alone (which is essentially what Germany has done since shut your borders "until you can figure things out". But the conversation isn't about that at all, you changed the subject.

We were discussing your dislike of the camps and treatments of the migrants as they flow through countries that are many times smaller than yours. Also discussing the closing of your borders as other countries are crumbling under pressure. And also discussing how you should just let all these people in and comfortably settle them in Germany since, according to your leaders, you are able to handle them all.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 224):
Every country should pay equally low benefits to the refugees, that would reduce the flood and allow more fair distribution. Currently refugees go where they get the most money.

  

With all the sh*t Denmark has taken in the past few weeks with their stance to diminish the benefits and reunification allowances, they are the only ones that had the right idea.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 226):

Yep. Unfortunately the Swedes are being crazy as usual, one of their "journalists" even published an article in Finnish where she demands Finland to follow Sweden's ultra liberal immigration policy:

http://www.expressen.se/kronikorer/l...vat-suomen-integraatiopolitiikkaa/

Very often I wonder whether Swedish media personnel and politicians even noticed that we aren't under their rule anymore. Similarly too many Finnish politicians still look at Sweden as an example and guide, as if we were dependent from them. If you ask me whatever Swedes do we should do the opposite.

A funny quote from the article:

"Suomi on aivan samoin kuin me pieni maa, jolla on suuria maa-alueita ja joka tarvitsee monimuotoisuutta sekä siirtolaisia voidakseen selviytyä maailmanlaajuisista haasteista"

"Similarly to us Finland is a small country with large land area and a need for diversity and immigrants to survive global challenges"

Thanks Lotta, very convincing. To survive globalization we clearly need more unemployed people who are dependent from our welfare system, after all there aren't enough jobs right now, and automation will take away even more of them. Them also hating western culture and worshiping an imaginary creature is only a plus, so diverse!
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 224):
Every country should pay equally low benefits to the refugees, that would reduce the flood and allow more fair distribution. Currently refugees go where they get the most money.

every country should pay the amount that is necessary to enable a life according to the common law of the union, in this case the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 225):
Of course we can't stick them to Hungary/Croatia/Austria alone

Good that you see that.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 225):
Also discussing the closing of your borders as other countries are crumbling under pressure. And also discussing how you should just let all these people in and comfortably settle them in Germany since, according to your leaders, you are able to handle them all.

Now I get where you are wrong, you have the idea that they are coming because Germany opened its borders, as if countries were not overflowing before.
The rush we see now is because countries talk about closing borders. People that have been willing to hold out a little longer now have a good incentive to give up their homesite ando property. They don't want to be stuck in Syria like all those Jews got stuck in Germany because they didn't get out before other countries decided they had taken enough Jewish refugees in.

Mr. Orbán is the major Cheerleader with the clear message: come now, before we close our borders for real.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 228):
every country should pay the amount that is necessary to enable a life according to the common law of the union, in this case the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Enabling life should mean only enough money for food, housing and other absolutely necessary living costs. Currently many countries pay much more than that.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 212):
Do you think that the 12 million Germans, who were kicked out from today's Poland, Russia or the Czech Republic after WW2 were welcomed here in Western Germany? They were called the Polacken or other derogatory terms and were accused of getting privileged housing and food ration cards.

Inviting millions of economic refugees will certainly make up for past sins.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 213):
fyi: that is equivalent to taking in 20 million people today

Wow, what a sacrifice Germany made.

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 214):
Apparently a safe place to stay is not enough for these people

See the original post - if you don't like a smoking ban and don't want your girls to wear a headscarf, this qualifies you for European residency.

Quoting Buckeyetech (Reply 215):
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but this is being pushed at the highest levels from the Gulf nation governments.

I might privately call you a conspiracy theorist, but you are absolutely correct that no one in the Islamic power elite is crying over mass refugees in Europe. It's a Trojan Horse and it's just a matter of precisely how big the dividends will be.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 216):
Why the sudden border controls when you get hit with overwhelming numbers?

Because it is DO AS WE SAY, not as we do.

Other countries border controls are because they are racists and breaking the law, German border controls are always legal and are put in place to actually help others.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 217):
We're doomed with this government.

Doomed, probably not.

The decay and eventual end of German identity is seeming more likely.

Worse, this behavior severely weakens the EU. I for one want Schengen ended yesterday entirely because of Germany's immigration policy.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 219):
Well said. See below.

Thanks, it is gratifying to get a word of support from time to time.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 219):
Then move the whole Africa and Middle East to Germany if you think this will FINALLY solve your guilt issues, but why should the rest of Europe follow you in this nonsense?

Because we joined the EU, a more palatable way to spread German influence across Europe than, well, you know.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 222):
From ME you can find quite many countries with high level of education and extremely low level of gender equality

Ah, but you're missing the value of German education which can solve the world's problems and end gender bias.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 227):
the Swedes are being crazy as usual

Maybe, just please remember just as not all Germans support German policy, not all Swedes support Swedish policy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 227):
whatever Swedes do we should do the opposite.

I think that is a great idea also. I would love to see a full-blown-ultra-capitalist state with little to no taxes and little to no government bosom in Scandinavia. The certain wealth would give the Swedish government pause for thought.




Pu.
 
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 229):
Enabling life should mean only enough money for food, housing and other absolutely necessary living costs. Currently many countries pay much more than that.

That ship sailed, supreme court already decided that "human dignity" means the same for a refugee than for anyone else in 2012.
Since the German supreme court tends to rule human rights issues more conservative than the European Human Rights Court, you can pretty much expect that any case brought to that forum will end the same way.

Quoting pu (Reply 230):
The decay and eventual end of German identity is seeming more likely.

Sounds almost like quoting "Mein Kampf".

Quoting pu (Reply 230):
Ah, but you're missing the value of German education which can solve the world's problems and end gender bias.

Who said German education? Education has that effect, read up in the applicable literature.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 231):
That ship sailed, supreme court already decided that "human dignity" means the same for a refugee than for anyone else in 2012.

Coolio. So if we aren't allowed to close our borders either then there's no avoiding the fact this flow of refugees will destroy our welfare system. Good bye free state funded education, healthcare and social security, welcome class society!

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 231):
Sounds almost like quoting "Mein Kampf".

I own original Mein Kampf from 1940's, Finnish translation. I also own the green book of Gaddafi and a lot of written speeches of Kim Il Sung. If you need an actual quote from one of the fine authors of these books just ask.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 231):
Who said German education? Education has that effect, read up in the applicable literature.

As long as immigrant children are taught very different world view in mosques and private homes I doubt any western education system will have much of an impact. Adults who have lived their youth in a very different society are even harder to change.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 176):
by reasoning, again, since you missed it in the posting you did quote, because coming in with refugees is actually more dangerous than the usual way for terrorists to come in: flying.If you have a paper door, the quality of the lock you put on it is completely inconsequential

Let us start with the claim of reasoning, whose? A pretty lofty claim for oneself. Are you some kind of expert on Terrorists travel methods by the way? I think for you to state you know how terrorists travel is another lofty claim of ones own abilities. Do you do consulting work for the German governments agencies? I must say, I am impressed. I do believe you threw in a Biblical reference also back a few replies. Impressive.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 228):
every country should pay the amount that is necessary to enable a life according to the common law of the union, in this case the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

The EU Charter is not a suicide pact. Remember you are only seeing the start of this wave of migration. There are millions on the way - Syria is just the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...Europe-Hungary-builds-second-fence
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 234):
The EU Charter is not a suicide pact.

A state of law is a state of law. Taking in refugess is also no suicide. Even if everyone in Syria came to Europe, you would be hard pressed to notice the difference in the street.
A million people is about 0.2% of the people in the EU.

Even if the express is right, that is 7%. Hardly a hostile takeover.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 235):
Even if the express is right, that is 7%. Hardly a hostile takeover.

Let's use some extreme examples. What if those millions believed in cannibalism? Or believed that raping little boys is perfectly normal (Afghanistan). Among the current wave of refugees you have a lot of Afghans. Or simply those who believe that a woman not fully veiled deserves to be raped.

Forget political correctness - all cultures are not equal. Most European countries have already experienced problems assimilating people from the middle east, even though they arrived slowly and gradually. What makes you think the problems will not happen when they come in at 10, 20 times the rate?

Already, you have them demanding Halal food. Screw that. If you want Halal, you should have stayed home. If you want to live in Europe, you should live, eat and behave as a European.
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 235):
A state of law is a state of law. Taking in refugess is also no suicide. Even if everyone in Syria came to Europe, you would be hard pressed to notice the difference in the street.
A million people is about 0.2% of the people in the EU.

Even if the express is right, that is 7%. Hardly a hostile takeover.

Rubbish. By European standards our refugee population here in Finland is pretty tiny, yet in overwhelming majority of cases when a sexual assault is being reported in the media the offender is described as a dark skinned person who speaks either English or poor Finnish. The truth is that a very small minority with African / Middle-Eastern background commit the big majority of rapes where the offender is unknown to the victim.

When you take people from backward societies with very different ideas of freedom of speech, gender equality and such you absolutely have to integrate those people successfully. Otherwise you'll see a huge amount of social issues when said people don't find a job and never adopt the most fundamental parts of western ideals.

Europe has already largely failed to integrate refugees from ME/AFR when they arrived in much smaller amounts. I can only watch in horror what will happen during next 10 years when we have many, many times more.

Initially it might not be a suicide of European culture and democracy, that will happen over the time when poorly integrated refugees continue to have a much higher birth rate than the general population does. But you can say good bye to the previous level of safety, not to even mention how much money all this will consume, money that can't be used to something better.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Rara
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 208):
Dude, sometimes writing on this forum is like speaking to a wall. Who on here said that Europe shouldn't take in the poor refugees fleeing from war in Syria?

Well, some people did. But remember where the exchange originated. Someone pointed out that most refugees are male, supposedly with the wife and children to follow later. Aha, said someone else, that proves they're just economic migrants and they aren't really running for their lives. To which you said "ding ding ding we have a winner". Now you're seemingly not so sure anymore whether the guy whose story I related should be allowed to stay or not.

All this goes to show (if anything) is that things aren't that simple. On this thread, the more right-wing people are, the simpler their solutions will be. Close all borders! Kick them all out! Bomb their home countries! Sink their boats! The left wing is notably missing, but their solutions are equally simple (open all borders, nobody is illegal, the more different cultures the better, we can create employment for everyone). They aren't on this forum, but they do exist.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 208):
Now, Syria has a population of 23 million; Iraq - 33 million; Afghanistan - almost 31 millions. Just bringing up these three since they seem to constantly top the statistics numbers for refugee's originating countries. The doors to Europe and a "better life" have been opened. Where do you draw the line to ensure that this mass of people doesn't continue to stream into your continent over the course of the coming years?

All you need is stable and conditions in their home countries. People are reluctant to leave their home. If they don't absolutely have to move, they don't. We've seen this in the history of European integration. First it was "OMG if we open the borders, all the Greeks will move here!", then it was "all the Poles and Hungarians will move here!", then it was "all the Bulgarians will move here!", and it never did happen. Folks rather stay at home, if "home" isn't absolutely unbearable.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 219):
Being a "social scientist" we should cut him some slack as such "science" is all politics and no hard facts.

Ah, an expert on the subject I see.   Well, all science is political - some more, some less. Social Sciences are no different from other sciences in that there are hard, observable facts, and there are people's takes on what to make of it. The latter is more influenced than where people stand politically than in, say, Biology, that's certainly true.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 219):
Good heaven. Then move the whole Africa and Middle East to Germany if you think this will FINALLY solve your guilt issues, but why should the rest of Europe follow you in this nonsense? If I may suggest a friendly advice from a neighbor, we would love to see Germany stop bouncing from one extreme to another.

I wasn't talking about Germany specifically, but rather the West as a whole. Germany is no better or worse than the rest of Europe or America. Just different in different areas. For instance, we seldom bomb the crap out of innocent people, but we do sell plenty of weaponry to keep conflicts alive. I won't judge on which is worse.

I WILL judge on the influence the Western world has on the rest of planet though, which is generally disastrous.
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tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 236):
Already, you have them demanding Halal food.

right. .. feed an American dog, chicken balls, jellyfish, pak pak, mantis shrimp, snake or a million other things and a fairly high number of them will flat out refuse and demand real food. Same for lots of europeans.

All is perfectly good to sustain you, all is normal in some places, all of the above tastes great, although for dogs I have only 2nd hand information. If I feed you really good stinking tofu, high on protein and delicious, many may throw up before it reaches their mouths.

And, few questions:
1) how many (%) demand halal food?
2) how many (%) ask if the food is halal
3) how many (%) are just happy to eat.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 239):
And, few questions:
1) how many (%) demand halal food?
2) how many (%) ask if the food is halal
3) how many (%) are just happy to eat.

Go to the nearest refugee center and ask, I doubt there are statistics of those things.

Btw, don't these refugees seem strangely picky for somebody who is supposedly escaping a war and just looking for a safe place to stay?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vacdGPAZLyM
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 235):
A state of law is a state of law

I have to highlight this again.

It's a fundamental approach of this type of mindset, which I don't mind saying is a stereotypically German mindset.

The law is the supreme decider of what to do in every case, not what is right or wrong. If the law is wrong, we must follow it even if it kills us.

If Tommy were on a lifeboat and there was a law that a lifeboat cannot refuse any new arrivals, Tommy would keep piling on arrivals even as the lifeboat sinks....because the reassurance of following the law is more comfortable to this mindset than doing the right thing.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 235):
Even if the express is right, that is 7%.

Multimply today's 7% and in 25 years it becomes closer to a quarter of the population since Europeans, especially Germans, do not replicate themselves enough to cover natural attrition (aka natural death).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 236):
all cultures are not equal

Very true.
There are gray areas and matters of taste but there is also right and wrong.
There is a better and worse.

Quoting Rara (Reply 238):
... the more right-wing people are, the simpler their solutions will be....The left wing ... solutions are equally simple

I applaud your recognition that ideological based solutions are not helpful.
But don't confuse complexity with better.

Quoting Rara (Reply 238):
If they don't absolutely have to move, they don't

Please reconsider this.
It's an absolutism that you just admitted is a wrong kind of thinking.
Today 10s of milions Spanish-speakers live in North America because they are economic migrants....Mexico, Cuba etc. have faced no starvation or horribly murderous regimes, they are just poorly run economies with sloppy governments.

Plenty of people immigrate to Europe and America that don't "absolutely have to move" and plenty more would gladly do so if they felt the door was open. Plenty will try even if there's a chance the door is open.

Quoting Rara (Reply 238):
I WILL judge on the influence the Western world has on the rest of planet though, which is generally disastrous.

Negative.

Everywhere English is the native language there is wealth, stability and democracy. Most places that are a democracy enjoy stability in economic and civil life. Democracy came from Europe.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 239):
chicken balls

That's a colourful image, thanks.







Pu.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 240):
Go to the nearest refugee center and ask, I doubt there are statistics of those things.

and yet posters seem to have knowledge that "demanding" halal food isn't just a couple of isolated events.

Quoting pu (Reply 241):
It's a fundamental approach of this type of mindset, which I don't mind saying is a stereotypically German mindset.

you can try to change laws, you can decide to break a law and bear the consequences, but breaking the law and have other people bear the consequences?

Quoting pu (Reply 241):
If Tommy were on a lifeboat and there was a law that a lifeboat cannot refuse any new arrivals, Tommy would keep piling on arrivals even as the lifeboat sinks....because the reassurance of following the law is more comfortable to this mindset than doing the right thing.

I guess Ra, as a social scientist, can tell you a lot about universal morality when people are confronted with moral dilemmas. You'd be surprised that the difference between cultures is often smaller than the spead in each culture.

I simply reject your hypophysis that Europe is a sinking boat. And btw, there is no law requiring to sink the boat, hence your example simply isn't applicable.

Quoting pu (Reply 241):
Multimply today's 7% and in 25 years it becomes closer to a quarter of the population since Europeans, especially Germans, do not replicate themselves enough to cover natural attrition (aka natural death).

birthrate trents down fast among immigrants and just for the record, you may want to check the pre-war birthrate in Syria and come up with a real gof explaination why that should suddenly and significantly change.

Quoting pu (Reply 241):
That's a colourful image, thanks.


I like.the black ones better.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pvjin
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 241):
It's a fundamental approach of this type of mindset, which I don't mind saying is a stereotypically German mindset.

The law is the supreme decider of what to do in every case, not what is right or wrong. If the law is wrong, we must follow it even if it kills us.

If Tommy were on a lifeboat and there was a law that a lifeboat cannot refuse any new arrivals, Tommy would keep piling on arrivals even as the lifeboat sinks....because the reassurance of following the law is more comfortable to this mindset than doing the right thing.

      I too dislike this mindset of people just saying "but the law doesn't allow that!" when decisive action needs to be taken to change things for good. Laws are made by humans for humans, thus they can be changed when necessary and when the change is supported by the people.

Personally when needed I simply refuse to follow laws that are very much against my own sense of justice.

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - Thomas Jefferson

I apply this to ridiculously low speed limits in some parts of Finnish roads.

Quoting pu (Reply 241):
Plenty of people immigrate to Europe and America that don't "absolutely have to move" and plenty more would gladly do so if they felt the door was open. Plenty will try even if there's a chance the door is open.

Indeed. As long as the material quality of life in Europe/The US remains significantly higher than in areas south of them there will be a significant amount of people who want to move simply for easier life. European welfare systems make things even worse in Europe as you don't need to even work and integrate to gain higher quality of life than you had in your home country, at least if you get accepted as a refugee.

[Edited 2015-09-21 11:57:22]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
diverted
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 239):
right. .. feed an American dog, chicken balls, jellyfish, pak pak, mantis shrimp, snake or a million other things and a fairly high number of them will flat out refuse and demand real food. Same for lots of europeans.

I'm Canadian but I spend enough time in America, plus our cultures are so similar I think the difference is moot. However, I'll put myself in the position of refugee. (The definition of a refugee is "1.a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster: ")

If I had to leave my home country under fear of death or similar, you're [email protected] right I'd eat dog, chicken balls, jellyfish or anything else. If the option is eat or starve, I'll take eating thanks. If someone is "too good" to eat the food that has been GENEROUSLY provided to them, well bugger off back to where you came from. Seems to me someone in that position would be an economic migrant, rather than a refugee. Perhaps governments smarten up and start sending those ones back? (Back being to the place listed on their passport. If you ponied up for a fake Syrian passport, tough luck!)
 
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 242):
and yet posters seem to have knowledge that "demanding" halal food isn't just a couple of isolated events.

In Denmark there's a large slaughterhouse where a Muslim employee does a prayer during slaughtering to make the food halal. A lot of European Muslims do seem to be concerned by whether the food is halal or not.

http://www.danpo.dk/da/om-danpo/dyrevelfaerd/halal

This Finnish web shop seems to specialize in delivering halal food:

http://ebazaar.fi/i

Thus it shouldn't be really surprising if many refugees demand halal food.

[Edited 2015-09-21 12:28:06]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 245):
A lot of European Muslims do seem to be concerned by whether the food is halal or not.

Well, when I grew up my parents would freak about meat on fridays.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 244):
If I had to leave my home country under fear of death or similar, you're [email protected] right I'd eat dog, chicken balls, jellyfish or anything else.

few questions:
1) how many (%) demand halal food?
2) how many (%) ask if the food is halal
3) how many (%) are just happy to eat.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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pu
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 242):
I simply reject your hypophysis that Europe is a sinking boat.

That's fine.

The problem is you're imposing your own values and judgment onto everyone in Europe. Then, when there are complaints, your excuse is, "Too bad. This is the law."

1. Many EUropeans think the boat is sinking, some think it is already sunk, some think it can only hold a few arrivals every year, etc. Democracies decide this for themselves. The EU does not mean German immigration policy is enforced across the continent in every country, although I freely admit Germany de facto decides most EU policies.

2. If Germany feels there is plenty of room on the German boat, great. Please build a pipeline or finance an airlift so that the rest of us don't have to deal with the consequences of your immigration policy we don't agree with. Also please remove us from Schengen.







Pu.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Germany Brings Back European Border Controls

Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 248):
The problem is you're imposing your own values and judgment onto everyone in Europe. Then, when there are complaints, your excuse is, "Too bad. This is the law."

We share values in Europe, that is how we agreed on those laws. And btw, we did so in a process that wasn't in proportion to the population, hence Finland had much, much more influence on those laws as justifiable by its size.

Quoting pu (Reply 248):
Also please remove us from Schengen.

You are a souverign country, you can quit Schengen any time you like or start infringement proceedings via the EU comission if you think Germany is in breech of applicable treaties.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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