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dfwjim1
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Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:20 pm

I have been reading about Russia's buildup of military forces in Syria over the past 2 to 3 weeks and I am curious as to what other members of this board think the outcome of this buildup will be. Will Russia participate in action against ISIS? Could a Russian presence in Syria lead to conflicts with U.S., European forces and possibly even Israel?

Thanks for your responses
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:47 pm

The most important reason Russia is there is to have a deep water port in the med. Putin ambitions for a new Russian Empire has no limits, while the Med. is full of western navy Russia has no ports there.
Second reason is to protect the Assad regime specially that in the last few weeks his forces were loosing a vast amount of ground.

A conflict against Israel is out of the question, neither Russia nor Syria want war with Israel.

ISIS, unless they get too close to the Russian facilities the Russians will not go after them.

My   
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:56 pm

The Russians are never interested in helping other countries achieve economic stability, democracy or a free society - they don't have that at home. So it's important to realize that when a country like Russia is in negative economic growth, facing a currency crisis, and ostracized by the first world everything they do is strictly aimed at the very narrow objective of their own survival.

SOBHI51 is right to invoke Putin's ambitions and I don't disagree with anything he says.

But, I actually think this goes further than Russian ambitions for greatness. It goes towards Russian survival; or at least Putin's survival.





Pu.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 1):

The most important reason Russia is there is to have a deep water port in the med. Putin ambitions for a new Russian Empire has no limits, while the Med. is full of western navy Russia has no ports there.
Second reason is to protect the Assad regime specially that in the last few weeks his forces were loosing a vast amount of ground.

Or maybe they are attempting to cut a supply route to the Saudi-backed nutjobs in Chechnya and Dagestan?

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Bandar's claimed threats against Sochi Olympics were true...

It is a known tactic after all...

Quote:
Saudi Arabia's rulers threatened to make it easier for terrorists to attack London unless corruption investigations into their arms deals were halted, according to court documents revealed yesterday.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/15/bae.armstrade
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):

Or maybe they are attempting to cut a supply route to the Saudi-backed nutjobs in Chechnya and Dagestan?

This, Russia has a vested interest in seeing ISIL crushed, eradicated, bye bye bearded nutjobs.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:54 pm

Bashar doesn't fight ISIS, and so Russia will not fight them either.

Bashar is fighting the FSA, and ISIS is also fighting the FSA.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):

I'm sure Bashar would gladly help western powers by starting to fight ISIS if the west in return stopped supporting FSA thugs.

Based on the videos I've seen it's hard to tell the difference between FSA and ISIS anyway. Both are full of bearded men who shout "allahu akbar" while fighting, the main difference seems to be that one of them wants to annex into a bigger Islamic political entity, the caliphate, while the other wants to turn just Syria into an Islamic state.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):

Bashar doesn't fight ISIS, and so Russia will not fight them either.

Well, if you really want to talk in tinfoil hat terms, we could talk about how both Israel and ISIS don't touch each other at all...
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:32 pm

Bashar freed all the islamists from his prisons, let's just remember that.

Acheron : ISIS' first objective is to establish their caliphate, if they succeed then Israel is next.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
Or maybe they are attempting to cut a supply route to the Saudi-backed nutjobs in Chechnya and Dagestan?

What does that have to do with Syria and the Bases that Russia is building in Syria?
The way that things are going now the supply in men is coming the opposite way.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Bandar's claimed threats against Sochi Olympics were true..
Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Bandar's claimed threats against Sochi Olympics were true...

It is a known tactic after all...

Didn't happen.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 6):

There are few factions fighting in Syria
Syrian army or whatever is left of it, Hezbollah, Iraqi Shiite, Iranians and now Russians in one side.

ISIS, created by Syrian regime, as the Syrian air force and army never attacked them and they always retreat from areas without a fight and hand them to ISIS

AlNasra the Alquaeda affiliate in Syria. They get attacked by ISIS whenever they make noticeable advances against the Syrian army.

The FSA are the Syrian people and ex Soldiers who deserted the army and joined the FSA.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):

Bashar doesn't fight ISIS, and so Russia will not fight them either.

Bashar is fighting the FSA, and ISIS is also fighting the FSA.

  

Quoting Acheron (Reply 7):
Well, if you really want to talk in tinfoil hat terms, we could talk about how both Israel and ISIS don't touch each other at all...

Neither does Bashar
BTW there is no immediate important concentration of ISIS fighters near the Syrian Israeli borders.

[Edited 2015-09-14 14:43:39]
 
Caryjack
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 7):
Well, if you really want to talk in tinfoil hat terms, we could talk about how both Israel and ISIS don't touch each other at all...

True, but ISIL does touch Israel and more.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...te--what-is-in-a-name-9731894.html

From the link:

"The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (Isis)
The original name for the group in Arabic was Al-Dawla Al-Islamiya fi al-Iraq wa al-Sham. The first three words translate to the Islamic State of Iraq while “al-Sham” refers to Syria or an undefined region around Syria.

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil)
The undefined region around Syria is historically referred to as the Levant; it includes Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Palestine, and Jordan. This name shows that the militants want their area of control to go beyond Iraq."
Thanks,   
Cary
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):

Will Russia participate in action against ISIS? Could a Russian presence in Syria lead to conflicts with U.S., European forces and possibly even Israel?

You know its a logical move but poorly executed in some ways. If you look at a map of Crimea down to Syria you see the issue at hand. Russia's warm water port of Crimea faces a bottleneck controlled by NATO which is the Bosphorus straights. So they want a Naval base south of it to project power. Makes perfect sense IMO but, why choose Syria? You could probably do the same in what's left of Libya or possibly cut a deal with Lebanon or Egypt (in exch for weapons perhaps). Why support someone who is both weak and brutal in Syria? Just for a Naval base? It doesn't make sense to me.

Issue 2 - why does Russia not go all in when its doing this? They only sent 6 tanks into Latakia and are preparing for about 1000 "advisors". In Ukraine and Syria they appear willing to use troops but only enough to avoid defeat instead of winning outright.

I don't think they'll confront either ISIS or Israel either. They are just there to protect their base and turf. They buy drones from Israel too and don't confront them the way Iran does.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
nto their arms deals were halted, according to court documents revealed yesterday.

Wow, that's really dirty stuff. Surprises even me.
 
us330
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:03 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 1):
The most important reason Russia is there is to have a deep water port in the med.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

This is why. It's Russia's only military installation outside of the former USSR.
 
BMI727
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):

I have been reading about Russia's buildup of military forces in Syria over the past 2 to 3 weeks and I am curious as to what other members of this board think the outcome of this buildup will be.

Nothing good.

ISIS being defeated must be the top priority, but doing so to leave a Syria with Assad in power and backed by Russia is hardly better.

I'm not going to go as far as to say boots on the ground are needed, but there must be intervention to defeat ISIS, eventually defeat Assad, and remove Russian influence. Conflict is a reality in the world, but we must make sure of two things. First, each conflict must have a good guy and second, the good guy must win. I'm not fully convinced the conflict in Syria yet has the first item.

And any Russian attacking non-ISIS targets or interfering with western military operations should be terminated with extreme prejudice.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):

I have been reading about Russia's buildup of military forces in Syria over the past 2 to 3 weeks and I am curious as to what other members of this board think the outcome of this buildup will be.

Nothing to see here, no forces, just some Russian volunteers on vacation in Syria that happen to have a command & control structure. Oh, wait, that was the Ukraine - sorry, I got my Russian invasions confused.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 9):
There are few factions fighting in Syria
Syrian army or whatever is left of it, Hezbollah, Iraqi Shiite, Iranians and now Russians in one side.

ISIS, created by Syrian regime, as the Syrian air force and army never attacked them and they always retreat from areas without a fight and hand them to ISIS

AlNasra the Alquaeda affiliate in Syria. They get attacked by ISIS whenever they make noticeable advances against the Syrian army.

The FSA are the Syrian people and ex Soldiers who deserted the army and joined the FSA.

You forgot:

- The Kurds fighting ISIS, Bashar and the Turks

- The Turks fighting the Kurds and backing ISIS and Al Qaeda against them

Not to mention Western air strikes and the occasional Israeli bombing of Hezbollah arms depots headed for Lebanon.

Also, ISIS certainly seems to be fighting Bashar's forces, judging by the amount of Syrian forces beheaded by them so far, and Iran and Hezbollah are fighting ISIS as well (at least in Iraq and Lebanon).

Basically a good old-fashioned free-for-all, like a bar fight scene in a bad Western movie.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 11):
Why support someone who is both weak and brutal in Syria?

Kindred spirits.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 11):
I don't think they'll confront either ISIS or Israel either. They are just there to protect their base and turf. They buy drones from Israel too and don't confront them the way Iran does.

Plus, Israel has been very kind to the Russians in refusing to sell equipment to Ukraine that could be very helpful against the "rebels" in Eastern Ukraine.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
but doing so to leave a Syria with Assad in power and backed by Russia is hardly better.

It's not like it was any worse before that. Syria was always backed by Russia. Right now, if Russia wants to go in, it would be in our best interests to let them. it means, one way or another, they'll safeguard Assad. We know that means ISIS will never get complete control over Syria. Whether Assad decides to flex his muscles and try to take out ISIS is a different matter.

Bottom line: the West should have simply asked for Syria to give up its chemical weapons but not support anyone. The freedom fighters it supported have either managed to cross lines and join ISIS or abandon the fight altogether. And there's a report circulating that Russia had asked the other permanent members of the UNSC to agree to a deal that would have removed Assad from power with as little fuss as possible and that Western powers declined.
 
dc10lover
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:28 am

"Will Russia participate in action against ISIS? Could a Russian presence in Syria lead to conflicts with U.S"

Both are true.

Pentagon Fears It’s Not Ready for a War With Putin

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ot-ready-for-a-war-with-putin.html
 
Redd
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:32 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
but doing so to leave a Syria with Assad in power and backed by Russia is hardly better.

Because the removal of Assad will bring peace, tranquility and butterflies? Removing him, just like all the other Arab leaders caused destabilization and ISIS. What do you think will happen in Syria after he is gone?

The USA has backed many worse dictators than Assad, and made 'mad men' out of democratically elected good politicians. What ever serves your interests du jour, total hypocrisy.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting Redd (Reply 17):

Exactly. Assad is one of my favourite statesmen at this time, he's not the bad guy in Syria. Sure, he might have barrel bombed some urban areas, but that's war, Americans in Iraq weren't any better at avoiding civilian casualties.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 14):
- The Kurds fighting ISIS, Bashar and the Turks

- The Turks fighting the Kurds and backing ISIS and Al Qaeda against them

You forgot the Stalinist PKK and their Syrian branch YPG in a unstable truce with the Kurdish separatist government of Northern Iraq, which again is an unstable truce between two tribal groups.

Jan

Added:

The Russians give both NATO and the Israelis some trouble. The first thing they did was to set up S-300 AA missile sites. These missile systems are about cutting edge of AA systems and even the Russians themselves cannot jam them.
This means that NATO cannot go against Assad's assets, and the Israelis cannot attack targets in Syria anymore.

Jan

[Edited 2015-09-19 02:30:30]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:22 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
The first thing they did was to set up S-300 SA)">AA missile sites.

sensible move

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
These missile systems are about cutting edge of SA)">AA systems and even the Russians themselves cannot jam them.

Which in no way means that others can't. Remember Operation Skyshield? A hand full of RAF Vulcan bombers jamming the US continental defense to the point where it may very well not have existed. Remember how the SA-6 went from super effective to almost completely ineffective within days during the Yom Kippur war?
Both, Radar horizon as well as effective range against an evading target are shorter than the range of a HARM missile. A stationary target is any missiles ideal target.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
This means that NATO cannot go against Assad's assets, and the Israelis cannot attack targets in Syria anymore.

Without several layers of air defense, including AEW, any SAM battery is an easy victim for a strike package. Ground based air defense never amounted to more than a major inconvenience for an attacker by itself.
If that battery ever needs to go away, and God help us if it does, 5 inch naval gunfire could take it out as an opening move. And defending against an artillery barrage is..mm.. let's say .. experimental.
The MGM-168 also looks like build with SEAD/DEAD missions in mind.

Best regards
Thomas
 
Pyrex
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
You forgot the Stalinist PKK and their Syrian branch YPG in a unstable truce with the Kurdish separatist government of Northern Iraq, which again is an unstable truce between two tribal groups.

Sorry, it's hard to keep track of all the moving pieces! It is almost like that scene in "Life of Brianª.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
The Russians give both NATO and the Israelis some trouble. The first thing they did was to set up S-300 AA missile sites. These missile systems are about cutting edge of AA systems and even the Russians themselves cannot jam them.
This means that NATO cannot go against Assad's assets, and the Israelis cannot attack targets in Syria anymore.

The Israelis can attack targets in most of Syria (and definitely most of the Assad-controlled areas) without stepping foot in the country (or crossing the air border).

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 20):
Which in no way means that others can't.

I am sure the Israelis will actually appreciate the practice for when they need to go up against the Iranian S-300 batteries - they have been practicing in Greece against the Greek S-300s for a while now.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
Sorry, it's hard to keep track of all the moving pieces! It is almost like that scene in "Life of Brianª.

Most genuinely funny thing you've said in months. Well-spotted sir!
 
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seb146
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):
I have been reading about Russia's buildup of military forces in Syria over the past 2 to 3 weeks and I am curious as to what other members of this board think the outcome of this buildup will be.

My opinion is: good. Let them spend trillions of dollars/rubles on an unwinnable situation for a change.
 
BMI727
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 17):
Because the removal of Assad will bring peace, tranquility and butterflies?

No, but if you must have a thug it better be our thug rather than one controlled from Moscow.

Quoting Redd (Reply 17):
What ever serves your interests du jour, total hypocrisy

Yes, exactly. Having Russian influence in the region does not serve our interests.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
My opinion is: good. Let them spend trillions of dollars/rubles on an unwinnable situation for a change

That's why the west should be taking action to push back, both in Syria and in Ukraine. Make the cost for Russia unbearable in terms of money, manpower and equipment.
 
Redd
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
No, but if you must have a thug it better be our thug rather than one controlled from Moscow.

The USA has a tendency of having some of the most brutal 'thugs' as their thugs. For the sake of the people of Syria I hope Assad stays and the USA has no further influence. From what I've read the USA has already sold over 7 billion worth of weapons to Syria, a stable regime would be a bad thing for the USA.

Frankly, I think you should be ashamed for supporting your countries interests as more important than the innocent victims of regimes installed to protect your American corporate interests. Quite sad.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Yes, exactly. Having Russian influence in the region does not serve our interests.

All the US is interested I is making a huge mess out of the middle east, name one action America has taken in the middle east in the past 50 years that has made a tangible benefit to anyone.
 
BMI727
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 25):
The USA has a tendency of having some of the most brutal 'thugs' as their thugs.

That's why it's important to exercise influence on leaders to ensure any brutality is directed at those who deserve it.

Quoting Redd (Reply 25):
Frankly, I think you should be ashamed for supporting your countries interests as more important than the innocent victims of regimes installed to protect your American corporate interests.

Yeah, everything would be much better if we'd left guys who have no issue with using chemical weapons against civilians.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
name one action America has taken in the middle east in the past 50 years that has made a tangible benefit to anyone.

Giving countries the ability to defend themselves. The beauty of that is that it can provide influence.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
That's why the west should be taking action to push back, both in Syria and in Ukraine. Make the cost for Russia unbearable in terms of money, manpower and equipment.

How? By funding Islamist groups that are fighting against Assad and the Russians? Sounds good, ISIS sure appreciates.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Yes, exactly. Having Russian influence in the region does not serve our interests.

Having Americans messing around the world doesn't serve Europe's interests.
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 25):
Frankly, I think you should be ashamed for supporting your countries interests as more important than the innocent victims of regimes installed to protect your American corporate interests. Quite sad

I might ask you to grow up.

Not one country pursues altruistic foreign policies. America is by far the most powerful nation so their actions are most noticeable, but the likes of Poland, Portugal or Paraguay are of exactly the same mindset.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
name one action America has taken in the middle east in the past 50 years that has made a tangible benefit to anyone.

America ended the conflict between Egypt and Israel.

This dialed down the violence and death toll from full-scale war into low-grade asymmetric/guerilla/terrorism conflict. Egypt, the traditional leader of the Arab World, set the stage for ending outright war in the Middle East by accepting America's leadership and recognizing Israel.




Pu.
 
BMI727
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):
By funding Islamist groups that are fighting against Assad and the Russians?

Like I said, care needs to be taken to make sure it's the right people winning. Getting rid of ISIS is the top priority, but it's important to do it in a way that does not strengthen Assad or allow additional Russian influence.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):
Having Americans messing around the world doesn't serve Europe's interests.

What's Europe going to do about it?
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
......but it's important to do it in a way that does not strengthen Assad or allow additional Russian influence.

Why?

mariner
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
Like I said, care needs to be taken to make sure it's the right people winning. Getting rid of ISIS is the top priority, but it's important to do it in a way that does not strengthen Assad or allow additional Russian influence.

I don't think you Americans are capable of doing that, pretty much all your interventions lately have ended up as total failures when it comes to stabilizing the situation and eventually reaching long term peace.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
What's Europe going to do about it?

I think the EU should stop its russophobic policies and start further co-operation with Russia. Recognizing Donetsk People's Republic would be a good first step, together with getting rid of the sanctions. Remaining US troops in Europe should be kicked out, also EU states should consider leaving NATO. Then it's time to form a new EU army and send troops to Syria to stop Americans from destabilizing the situation any further.

Obviously this is all utopia, the EU as of now is just an American puppet organization designed to advance US interests in Europe and stop any counterbalance to US hegemony from forming.
 
BMI727
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
Why?

Putin is a thug who has invaded his neighbors and seems to seek a return to a Soviet style empire. It's smarter to not let old enemies rise again.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
I don't think you Americans are capable of doing that, pretty much all your interventions lately have ended up as total failures when it comes to stabilizing the situation and eventually reaching long term peace.

Stabilization and long term peace is exactly what you're getting now.  
Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
I think the EU should stop its russophobic policies and start further co-operation with Russia.

That will make everything much smoother when Putin decides it's time for annexation.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
Then it's time to form a new EU army and send troops to Syria to stop Americans from destabilizing the situation any further.

  

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
Obviously this is all utopia, the EU as of now is just an American puppet organization designed to advance US interests in Europe and stop any counterbalance to US hegemony from forming.

I wish the EU were a puppet for the US. But yes, we should take steps to prevent and minimize counterbalancing American power and influence.
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
Putin is a thug who has invaded his neighbors and seems to seek a return to a Soviet style empire. It's smarter to not let old enemies rise again.

As it presently stands in Syria, I prefer the Russian attitude - stabilisation - to the bloody, destructive mess that the intervention of others, not just the US but led by the US, has created in the Middle East.

mariner
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
That will make everything much smoother when Putin decides it's time for annexation.

Perhaps, but I don't even mind. Finland used to be an autonomous part of Russia for over 100 years, most of the time things were better than under Swedish rule. Now under the EU we are no more independent than back then, Germany and other big players make the decisions.

I think I'll soon start learning Russian.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Giving countries the ability to defend themselves. The beauty of that is that it can provide influence.

Which is what Russia is doing with Syria, giving the country the ability to defend itself against destabilising influences, in this case it's the US backed rebels and ISIL who are the destabilising influences.
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
What's Europe going to do about it?

Send a very strongly worded email.

Complain on anonymous internet forums like airliners. Continue to employ elected leaders who privately condone, cooperate and utilise American efforts for their own hidden goals but publicly portray a neutral or nominally disagreeable stance.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
pretty much all your interventions lately have ended up as total failures when it comes to stabilizing the situation and eventually reaching long term peace.

The Balkans are working out fairly well.
The US troops invited into the Baltic states and Poland are also interventions - just friendly ones.

It does take the strong desire of the local population to fight for stability, America neither gives nor takes away stability entirely on its own.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
I think the EU should stop its russophobic policies and start further co-operation with Russia.

No thanks.
Russia considers all of Scandinavia a historical province rightfully ruled by Moscow.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
Then it's time to form a new EU army and send troops to Syria to stop Americans from destabilizing the situation any further.

Obviously this is all utopia

Yet, the failure of Europe to do what you say "its time" to do does not prevent you from criticizing America's allocation of its own resources to effect policies it deems beneficial to itself. You want Europe to do it but not America.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
the EU as of now is just an American puppet organization designed to advance US interests in Europe and stop any counterbalance to US hegemony from forming.

Crap, don't tell the Germans all this EU stuff is American puppetry. Avoiding this was one of the selling points.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I prefer the Russian attitude - stabilisation

Russia's attitude is *never* stabilisation. They see all foreign entities as a threat to be tamed - Assad is weak so he's vulnerable to Russian taming.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Which is what Russia is doing with Syria, giving the country the ability to defend itself against destabilising influences,

Russia is giving power to Assad, not the Syrian people or Syria as a country.

Syrians are in no sense of the term getting the "ability to defend" themselves.





Pu.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Russia is giving power to Assad, not the Syrian people or Syria as a country.

Syrians are in no sense of the term getting the "ability to defend" themselves.


Assad is the head of the legitimate govt in Syria.
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 37):
Russia is giving power to Assad, not the Syrian people or Syria as a country.

How so?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-assad-step-aside?CMP=share_btn_tw

"West 'ignored Russian offer in 2012 to have Syria's Assad step aside''

mariner
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
Assad is the head of the legitimate govt in Syria.

Sure, if you share Russian definitions of legitimacy.


1.
From the right-wing American imperialists at The Guardian::
"...to vote for anything other than Assad is your own death warrant..."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-election-vote-for-assad-or-else


vs.


2.
From the independent and totally free Russian press:
"...[Assad] has always clearly maintained....Syrian support" emphasis mine
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/163596-wes...cus-delegitimizing-syria-election/






I can't decide which definition of legitimacy to believe.....






Pu.
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
How so?

Because Russia doesn't care if Assad rules by pure brute force and Russian weaponry or if he stays in power by a rigged election. They just want a pliable Syrian leader. In fairness, America often takes much the same approach although they have a noticeably more democratic history and outcome in their foreign interventions (Japan, S Korea, Europe etc.)



Pu.
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 41):
They just want a pliable Syrian leader.

I would say a stable Syrian leader (which I would like to see), but your mind seems to be made up so there isn't much point in arguing the toss.

mariner
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
Assad is the head of the legitimate govt in Syria.

Yes the usual 99.99999999%
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 43):
Yes the usual 99.99999999%

It's a pathological anti-Americanism that is driving some to call Assad legitimate. When you're on the same side as Russia in an argument I think that is a big red flag that a reasonable form of government or a deep concern for the local population is not your goal.

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
a stable

Ok, I get your point.

I guess my point is that stability is not their top objective, nor is concern for the local population, nor is any consideration for the will of the Syrian people. Russian influence is their objective. But, I see your point that insofar as Assad can be made into a stable Rusian-friendly ruler, stability through Assad is a Russian goal.

.....But I don't like it.
I don't like this from Europe or America. It's an expedient solution to Europe and America's temporary troubles but leaves everyone else in jeopardy. It's the same argument that says the House of Saud is better than democracy for Saudi Arabia or that murderous Saddam is better for Iraq than ISIL because he kept his killing inside his own borders.






Pu.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 44):
It's a pathological anti-Americanism that is driving some to call Assad legitimate. When you're on the same side as Russia in an argument I think that is a big red flag that a reasonable form of government or a deep concern for the local population is not your goal.

Assad is just as legitimate ruler as most other rulers of Arab countries, including the one that SOBHI resides in. If Assad is not legitimate neither are any other dictators or "kings" in the region.
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 44):
But, I see your point that insofar as Assad can be made into a stable Rusian-friendly ruler, stability through Assad is a Russian goal.

Well - again - not necessarily. As in post #40, Russia was ready for Assad to go.

mariner
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 45):
including the one that SOBHI resides in. If Assad is not legitimate neither are any other dictators or "kings" in the region.

It's a kingdom, so the king is legit. There few of those in Europe, one of them not far away from you. When Assad the father died, Bashar was 36 the Syrian constitution limited the president to be 40+. In less than 20 minutes the constitution was changed so that it fits Bashar. That's one example how the Assad family manipulate everything in Syria.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
It's a kingdom, so the king is legit. There few of those in Europe, one of them not far away from you. When Assad the father died, Bashar was 36 the Syrian constitution limited the president to be 40+. In less than 20 minutes the constitution was changed so that it fits Bashar.

Have ordinary Saudi citizen ever been asked whether they want to preserve Saudi-Arabia as a kingdom? Nobody whose power is based solely on which family he/she belongs to is truly a legitimate democratic ruler to me. If it was up to me all European kingdoms would be abolished and their personal wealth would be confiscated back to the people. Of course European kings and queens don't even have real power, they are more like useless celebrities.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
That's one example how the Assad family manipulate everything in Syria.

Just like the Saudi family manipulates everything in your country. The fact you call your dictator a "king" and the use the word "kingdom" instead of dictatorship doesn't really make a difference. As long as ordinary people don't get to choose their de facto rulers through elections it's a dictatorship. Kingdom and democracy can of course co exist when the kings / queens are just titular rulers and democratically elected politicians are the ones who really use power.

In my opinion a dictator, no matter if it's Assad, Kim Jong Un or the king of KSA, stays legitimate as long as he is able to remain in power. Perhaps in that sense Assad may be less legitimate as he has lost some of Syria, but if he regains them back then he's again just as legitimate as those two other dictators I mentioned.
 
LMP737
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
This, Russia has a vested interest in seeing ISIL crushed, eradicated, bye bye bearded nutjobs.

You'll probably get a good idea how serious they are about going after ISIS once we learn the type of fighter jets the Russians sent there. If they sent SU-27's which have little in the way of air-to-ground capability that tells you Putin is sending a message to the west. If he sent aircraft like the SU-24 or SU-34 that tells you he might be looking to go after someone on the ground. It might not be ISIS though.

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