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SOBHI51
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 99):
Worked so well in Iraq

Who was responsible for that mess? Let me give you a hint, not KSA.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 100):
Who was responsible for that mess? Let me give you a hint, not KSA.

Of course not. Even if I've lately criticized KSA a lot don't get me wrong, I think the US is by far the most responsible for this entire mess, together with its NATO allies. A lot of western leaders have been either stupid enough to think western style democracy can be exported anywhere and installed by an outside force or just bribed by weapons manufacturers.
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
Countries like Syria and Iraq either need a strong tyrant who can keep things in order and different religious and ethnic groups away form each other's throats, or alternatively they need to be split into multiple smaller countries based on ethnic and religious lines.

It's amazing to me that you can within a few posts blame the US and NATO for messing with the Middle East yet simultaneously call for the installation of a tyrant or splitting up countries.

What the British did when they devolved their colonies -create "monarchies" out of thin air- worked fairly well, but we can't rewind time. Now it's a fight for power and we either pick a side or stay out entirely.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
So, if splitting these countries isn't seen as a valid option why not just support Assad? The west has supported plenty of murdering dictators before too

I am never going to support a serial killer just because he solves my personal problems with his crimes. Even though I am unhappy with economic and lifestyle immigrants it's wrong to support Assad.

It was wrong for America to support/install the likes of Saddam but it was not immoral to try and remove him and hope the Iraqis would pick up the slack. It was however, managed badly and ultimately a failure so we should not simply try repeating the same process again and expect better results.

Quoting mariner (Reply 97):
It is the western desire to impose democracy that helped get us into this mess in the first place.

The American people,led along by George Bush genuinely believed everyone deserves democracy, wants democracy and will fight for democracy. Bush was wrong. However, at some point the local people either take responsibility for their government or by their refusal to do so relieves the rest of us from any obligation to help.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 98):
It's up to the Syrians to decide who they want as a leader, not you, EU or USA.

Agreed.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 99):
So do you suggest we should just let them fight until the most popular side wins? .

Many nations formed their government this way. It's ok. Sooner or later we all get what we deserve.







Pu.
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 102):
The American people,led along by George Bush genuinely believed everyone deserves democracy, wants democracy and will fight for democracy. Bush was wrong.

Tell me something I don't know.

Nor can I excuse Blair from this. No one knows the history of "Iraq" more intimately than the British. They created the country, the British Mandate of Mesopotamia, and installed its first king when France kicked him - Faisal - out of Syria.

"Iraq" was seldom stable - except under foreign (British) occupation or autocratic (Saddam Hussein) rule. I can't imagine in what way Blair thought it would be different this time.

mariner

[Edited 2015-09-20 14:23:53]
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia In Syria

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
I can't imagine in what way Blair thought it would be different this time.

They had a mission from god, and that trumps what you know.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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mariner
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 104):
They had a mission from god, and that trumps what you know.

When people are on a mission from God, I just run as fast as I can in the other direction.

mariner
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:07 am

The US and Russia should sign a pact. We pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan COMPLETELY and Russia enters Syria to fight ISIS.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting pu (Reply 102):
It's amazing to me that you can within a few posts blame the US and NATO for messing with the Middle East yet simultaneously call for the installation of a tyrant or splitting up countries.

The US and NATO should have left Middle East as it was after the gulf war.

Quoting pu (Reply 102):
It was wrong for America to support/install the likes of Saddam but it was not immoral to try and remove him and hope the Iraqis would pick up the slack. It was however, managed badly and ultimately a failure so we should not simply try repeating the same process again and expect better results.

It was immoral to try and remove him as he was no threat whatsoever to outside world. Him being a tyrant isn't a valid reason as the US supported and still supports many other tyrants, you either go after all tyrants or none of them.

Quoting pu (Reply 102):
Many nations formed their government this way. It's ok. Sooner or later we all get what we deserve.

Sure, but as long as the EU is incapable of securing its borders we need to stop these crisis ASAP.
 
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mad99
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:54 am

Due to jet-lag i get up at 5-6am even on the weekend so i decided to investigate the Syrian war a little, to find out who's good and who's bad and this is what i found out...

The amount of online vid is staggering. Gopro cameras mounted to everything and good quality.

allahu akbar! (God is great(er)) is yelled all the time and especially when shooting at something and/or when the guy next to you gets shot.

The allahu akbar air defence system does not work!

The place is completely destroyed.

I'm not a defence expert but it looks like they have some pretty high tech stuff to play with.

Still not sure who's the good guy.

If anyone has a good link to a good documentary it would be appreciated
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:56 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
The US and NATO should have left Middle East as it was after the gulf war.

A nice and sensible idea but pretty impossible with all the US officials who bought into PNAC nonsense, particularly post-2000.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
Him being a tyrant isn't a valid reason as the US supported and still supports many other tyrants, you either go after all tyrants or none of them.

Fair point   
 
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777Jet
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:28 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):
I have been reading about Russia's buildup of military forces in Syria over the past 2 to 3 weeks and I am curious as to what other members of this board think the outcome of this buildup will be. Will Russia participate in action against ISIS? Could a Russian presence in Syria lead to conflicts with U.S., European forces and possibly even Israel?

Thanks for your responses

Since I first hear of Russia's involvement, and Australia's willingness to participate in air strikes over Syria, I had a gut feeling that an Australian Air Force fighter jet might get shot down by a Russian Missile - possibly intentionally.

Having said that, I don't know why Russia would bring SAMs to use in Syria when ISIS don't have an Air Force...???
 
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moo
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 110):
Having said that, I don't know why Russia would bring SAMs to use in Syria when ISIS don't have an Air Force...???

Because after IS is dealt with, I don't think anyone is under the illusion that certain nations will stop there...

The west want Assad out, so Assad will be forced out. It will probably be done much in the same way as Libya was handled, so a no-fly-zone established over Syria, with interdiction flights by western forces - that would remove Assads main asset in his favour, his air force.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:35 pm

Russian staging in Latakia has increased in the last few days. Seems they are preparing to do some strikes seeing that 12 Su-25 have arrived and 4 Su-24 were spotted refueling from an Il-78 somewhere over Syria a few days ago

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Russian-Aircraft-at-al-Assad-Intl-Airport_20September2015_AllSource-Analysis.jpg

http://theaviationist.com/2015/09/21...-25-frogfoot-attack-jets-in-syria/
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
The US and NATO should have left Middle East as it was after the gulf war.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 109):
A nice and sensible idea

I might agree with this amazingly perfect 20/20 vision you two have in hindsight.

1. But please take a moment to examine your reasoning. It has nothing to do with US invasions being right or wrong, you are judging US interventions entirely upon their results.

2. If the latest American tour through Iraq had ended with something like an Iraqi version
a. of Turkey (great),
b. or an Iraqi version of the Jordanian monarchy (not bad)
c. or even just the Shah of Iraq complete with in-house death squads and security services but totally contained,
..............the WORLD would be thinking how effective US interventions could be and would probably be arguing over who should be the next Muslim nation in line for a makeover.

3. The Americans tried and failed. Their motives or morality are irrelevant in the reasoning you two are offering, which is entirely results oriented. Let's kindly not try to say Europe or any other player is better or worse since we are having a fine little debate about to what extent we should help decide the government for the Syrian people.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
It was immoral to try and remove him as he was no threat whatsoever to outside world. Him being a tyrant isn't a valid reason as the US supported and still supports many other tyrants, you either go after all tyrants or none of them.

Please don't turn into Tommy and start saying it has to be all or nothing. If you believe in toppling foreign governments to suit your purposes, it can in practical terms only be done selectively or occasionally. The Americans usually have similar, but not altogether identical, goals to Europe. We care a lot because we are almost next door and getting the refugees. But that is the only reason we care. The American people rightfully don't give a sh*t what happens in Syria.

Btw, no one in either the US or EU gives a sh*t about the continent of tyrants we named "Africa," including all the self-righteous Europeans marching in the wealthy western EU capitals to "welcome" the refugees.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 107):
Sure, but as long as the EU is incapable of securing its borders we need to stop these crisis ASAP.

Oh, the EU is capable of securing its borders. It takes political will. Regardless of what happens in Syria we already have the ability to stop this now.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 108):
'm not a defence expert but it looks like they have some pretty high tech stuff to play with.

Question: how is ISIL able to play war with an ex-superpower like Russia? Where do the weapons come from? The money?

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 110):
I had a gut feeling that an Australian Air Force fighter jet might get shot down by a Russian Missile

I love Australia, but this would just be another MH17.

Putin would not get his Christmas koala this year but that would be the end of it.

If, on the other hand, standard Russian incompetence, drunkenness and machismo hurt an American resource in any serious way, Obama will not be able to stem the tide of American opinion demanding retribution and the Republican Congress. All of you guys asking for Russia to get involved are adding kerosene to the fire. It is inherently dangerous to the entire world.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 110):
Having said that, I don't know why Russia would bring SAMs to use in Syria when ISIS don't have an Air Force

Hmmmmm, if ISIS doesn't have an air force I can't imagine whose air assets they are defending themselves against.

Quoting moo (Reply 111):
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that certain nations will stop there...

It's like having Russia help you get rid of the guy with the mustache who lived in Berlin. They happily fight and kill and sacrifice their own people at something like a 10:1 rate of loss to the enemy, but once they get a foothold they are there forever.

Think Russian troops in Ukraine are just cozy enough for you? Great! Putin's happy to increase the coziness and add them to the Med as well.







Pu.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting pu (Reply 113):
1. But please take a moment to examine your reasoning. It has nothing to do with US invasions being right or wrong, you are judging US interventions entirely upon their results.

2. If the latest American tour through Iraq had ended with something like an Iraqi version
a. of Turkey (great),
b. or an Iraqi version of the Jordanian monarchy (not bad)
c. or even just the Shah of Iraq complete with in-house death squads and security services but totally contained,
..............the WORLD would be thinking how effective US interventions could be and would probably be arguing over who should be the next Muslim nation in line for a makeover.

Exept it wasn't hindsight. Everybody with half brain, some knowledge of the region and not brainwashed by the Coalition of the Willing buzztalk could see what an awful idea the invasion of Iraq was.

And there was plenty of warning that the most likely outcome would be a failed state with the potential to be filled with islamic extremists.

US interventions are seldom effective...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 114):
And there was plenty of warning that the most likely outcome would be a failed state with the potential to be filled with islamic extremists.

US interventions are seldom effective...

This was precisely the tune being sung in 2002-2003 when the run-up began, despite distractions over WMD and all the other political nonsense surrounding the issue in DC. Those with knowledge of the region, who were not infected with Project for New American Century gobbledygook, understood the kind of results one would expect from toppling Hussein in a fractioned state only held together by brute force.

So no, Pu, sorry, none of this talk is based on the results. The results are mere vindication of the oft-ignored logical and reasoned approach to deploying US (and Coalition) resources.
 
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pu
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:54 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 115):
understood the kind of results one would expect from toppling Hussein

BUT



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 115):
none of this talk is based on the results.











Pu.

[Edited 2015-09-21 21:59:18]
 
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mad99
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:58 am

Quoting pu (Reply 113):
Question: how is ISIL able to play war with an ex-superpower like Russia? Where do the weapons come from? The money?

Watching the vids i assume that the tanks are gov forces and the ones killing the tanks are not. I don't know if the ones shooting tanks are ISIL or another group so maybe some of the toys came from army defectors. They have a lot more then rpg's and ak47's and that stuff is not easy to get even if you have cash, i reckon other countries at work
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:57 am

Quoting pu (Reply 116):
BUT

Circular logic again? Come on man.

Reply 113: you are judging US interventions entirely on their results

As stated, the prediction of outcome/result/whatever-you-wanna-call-it in 2002-03 was a caution on the big-picture folly of Iraq intervention in the context of ME affairs. Surely you can connect the dots on the big-picture background for that reasoning (i.e. not based only on results, but an entire realpolitik paradigm.) If not, I have no prescription for that kind of tunnel vision.
 
offloaded
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:29 am

War is big business. The arms industry is still the largest in the world. Tourism is second. The world's largest arms exporting countries, the US, Russia, UK, France and China also happen to be the five permanent members of the security council. Huge chucks of our economies rely on wars, peace simply isn't lucrative enough. This is the sad reality of the last 50 years.

However, getting back to this thread, until he decided to go round borrowing bits of other countries, I thought Putin was a guy we could do business with. Gulf War 1 was supposed to establish the principal that large countries simple cannot invade smaller ones and get away with it, but then I suppose going up against Iraq isn't quite the same as Russia. I'm disappointed at the direction Putin has chosen.

Ultimately the old adage of "be careful what you wish for" seems to have come true. The idea that the Middle East and North Africa could morph into functioning democracies overnight where no such democracy previously existed was just not realistic. We removed, or facilitated the removal of regimes that were holding the countries together, thus opening the door for ISIS, AQ, and every other nutjob with a beard and an AK in the area, but even with those different groups, who is funding them? The Saudis? The Qataris? I know people who are convinced it's the Israelis. And in Syria, I can imagine Putin's line is "Assad may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch!"
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 113):
Question: how is ISIL able to play war with an ex-superpower like Russia? Where do the weapons come from? The money?

There are plenty of state and non-state actors providing funding and weapons to them.
 
diverted
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 117):
Watching the vids i assume that the tanks are gov forces and the ones killing the tanks are not. I don't know if the ones shooting tanks are ISIL or another group so maybe some of the toys came from army defectors. They have a lot more then rpg's and ak47's and that stuff is not easy to get even if you have cash, i reckon other countries at work

Have you met Turkey?

Joining the fight "against ISIS" as a reason to go bomb the Kurds again. The same Kurds, who coincidentally enough, have been fighting ISIS since day 1.
 
dfwjim1
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:08 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 112):

I wonder what would happen if ISIS managed to shoot down a Russian military aircraft...I suppose the sh** would really hit the fan.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 122):
I wonder what would happen if ISIS managed to shoot down a Russian military aircraft...I suppose the sh** would really hit the fan.

I think we should worry more about the Coalition shooting down a Russian plane by accident(or the other way around, the russians shooting down a coalition aircraft) before we should start to worry about ISIS shooting anything down. The skies over Syria are crowded.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:25 am

All this crap with extremeism started with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Had the US not intervened and the Soviets kept communism in Kabul, the extremist movement as we know it today would've been squashed, or at least minimal. Afghanistan may not quite be like China today, but perhaps Vietnam under communism.

I say this as an American who believes communism isn't a long-term solution for a nation, but a good way to get a poor nation to rise, ala Imperial Russia to USSR, Imperial China to PRC, French Indochina to Vietnam, et al.
 
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mad99
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 121):
Have you met Turkey?

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Quoting diverted (Reply 121):
Joining the fight "against ISIS" as a reason to go bomb the Kurds again. The same Kurds, who coincidentally enough, have been fighting ISIS since day 1.

Maybe some of the vids are Kurds, idk. The tank killers are using what i would consider high tech weapons and i have no idea if the PKK has stuf like that.

Sham the Kurds don't get a homeland out of the Iraq debacle
 
JJJ
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 125):
Sham the Kurds don't get a homeland out of the Iraq debacle

That's because the Kurds wouldn't accept a homeland just out of Iraq.

Kurdistan encompasses parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. And that with Turkey being a NATO member and all that it just won't happen.
 
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mad99
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:05 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 126):
That's because the Kurds wouldn't accept a homeland just out of Iraq.

and the oil is in that area if i remember correctly
 
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moo
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:45 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 121):
Joining the fight "against ISIS" as a reason to go bomb the Kurds again. The same Kurds, who coincidentally enough, have been fighting ISIS since day 1.

The Kurds have been fighting Turkey for much longer - and that's still going on, so its not just a one sided "Turkey wants to bomb the Kurds again".
 
diverted
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 128):
Quoting diverted (Reply 121):Joining the fight "against ISIS" as a reason to go bomb the Kurds again. The same Kurds, who coincidentally enough, have been fighting ISIS since day 1. The Kurds have been fighting Turkey for much longer - and that's still going on, so its not just a one sided "Turkey wants to bomb the Kurds again".

Oh I'm well aware of the history of the Kurds and Turkey. It's just sad that Turkey is using "fighting ISIS" as more reason to bomb the Kurds. Yet, there's growing evidence of Erdogan's government actively supplying ISIS. I guess whatever will help him stay in power...
 
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moo
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 129):
Oh I'm well aware of the history of the Kurds and Turkey. It's just sad that Turkey is using "fighting ISIS" as more reason to bomb the Kurds

They aren't, they have been carrying out bombing campaigns against the Kurds for years, there have been no noticable increase in tempo of those missions - what has changed is that they can legitimately target cross-border Kurds in Syria now as well as Iraq, whereas before Syria was very much off limits.
 
diverted
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 130):
They aren't, they have been carrying out bombing campaigns against the Kurds for years, there have been no noticable increase in tempo of those missions - what has changed is that they can legitimately target cross-border Kurds in Syria now as well as Iraq, whereas before Syria was very much off limits.

And that's what I take issue with. Don't join "the fight against ISIS" to use it as cover for "continuing your fight against the Kurds"

Erdogan is a pig, but that's a topic for another thread.

Anyways to try and stay on topic, interesting times ahead with Russia joining the fray officially....this will either be very good or very bad for US-Russian relations.
 
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moo
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 131):
And that's what I take issue with. Don't join "the fight against ISIS" to use it as cover for "continuing your fight against the Kurds"

That's not what I see them as doing - just because Turkey are fighting IS now doesn't mean older conflicts are put on hold for the duration.

IS is fighting in Syria and Iraq, the Kurds are fighting in Syria and Iraq, Turkey is taking action against the Kurds in all theatres available to it, which includes Syria and Iraq. I don't see a problem with that.
 
victrola
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 94):
Between the Assad/Russia alliance that seeks to murder the Syrian people to maintain control
and
the ISIL leadership that seeks to murder Syrian/Iraqi people to maintain control there is no compelling side for Europe or America to support.

I agree. There are no good guys in Syria. If the Russians want to get involved in this mess and try to sort it out, I say let them.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 124):
All this crap with extremeism started with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Had the US not intervened and the Soviets kept communism in Kabul, the extremist movement as we know it today would've been squashed, or at least minimal. Afghanistan may not quite be like China today, but perhaps Vietnam under communism.

Thing is, all these issues predate the first war in A-stan. They are still the result of western imperialism and meddling though, but mostly French and British plus the House of Saud using its oil money to spread it's intolerance.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 134):

You're thinking about the West backing Israel, while that is a large cause of the rise of extremism in the ME, it's not the only reason. Honestly, if we didn't let the fundamentalists in A-stan get power, and subsequently help Al-Qaeda grow, 9/11 may not have happened. Maybe some more 1970s-style hijackings, but nothing like what we see today. Plus reports on the US invasion show that the Taliban were using the same stingers the US supplied the Mujaheddin (same serial numbers and all) against the coalition, and even Lee Enfields dating back to pre-WWI.

The Enfield part is the trivia of the day.
 
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moo
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:23 am

Quoting moo (Reply 111):
Because after IS is dealt with, I don't think anyone is under the illusion that certain nations will stop there...

The west want Assad out, so Assad will be forced out. It will probably be done much in the same way as Libya was handled, so a no-fly-zone established over Syria, with interdiction flights by western forces - that would remove Assads main asset in his favour, his air force.

Well, Obama stated it outright yesterday:

Quote:

Mr Obama said IS had taken root in Syria and Iraq, and that defeating the group required "a new [Syrian] leader and an inclusive government that united the Syrian people in the fight against terrorist groups".

"This is not a conventional battle. This is a long-term campaign - not only against this particular network, but against its ideology," he added.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34393523
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 106):
The US and Russia should sign a pact. We pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan COMPLETELY and Russia enters Syria to fight ISIS.

I think Russia would do a better job than the US. Russian's are more ruthless than the West, Western politicians are concerned about ratings, tv coverage, their future outside politics, how much they will earn on the speaking circuit, Putin doesn't have to worry about any of this

Quoting JJJ (Reply 126):
That's because the Kurds wouldn't accept a homeland just out of Iraq.

It would have been better for the Kurds to accept part of a homeland than have no homeland at all.

Quoting victrola (Reply 133):
I agree. There are no good guys in Syria. If the Russians want to get involved in this mess and try to sort it out, I say let them.

What do they get in return?
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 136):
Mr Obama said IS had taken root in Syria and Iraq, and that defeating the group required "a new [Syrian] leader and an inclusive government that united the Syrian people in the fight against terrorist groups".

What a load of BS.

He should start by not sending any money or weapons into the region and stopping any training of non-existant moderates.

They removed Gaddafi and got Benghazi'd, and the country is pretty much a failed state, each piece run by a different set of islamic stupidity yet he still insists with his failed actions.

But then again, US foreign politics is run by a bunch of clueless idiots.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:17 pm

It seems that the Russians are not targeting IS, but Assad's more secular enemies, which are supported by the West.

Jan
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:56 pm

The west's mythical "moderates" that have nor problem fighting alonside Al-Nusra and their ilk.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 140):
The west's mythical "moderates" that have nor problem fighting alonside Al-Nusra and their ilk.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least for a while)"

The units attacked were apparently units of the FSA.

Jan
 
KLMA330
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:14 pm

This will quickly escalate in a proxy war between the US and Russia.

Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy road!
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:18 pm

Now the UK are going full bonkers mode

UK must prepare for WAR with Russia: Army calls for fleet of battle tanks to take on Putin

BRITAIN must invest in its fleet of main battle tanks to meet an increasing threat of ground war with Russia, senior Army officers have warned.

It comes as tensions between Nato countries and Moscow continued to mount, with Russia threatening “nuclear counter measures” over a plan to bolster nuclear facilities in Germany.

David Cameron is currently trying to find a “compromise deal” with Russian president Vladimir Putin over tackling the IS terror group in Syria.

But Russian aggression in Eastern Europe, an increase in Nato air-space incursions by Russian bombers, and the development of a new Russian “super tank” has led senior commanders to admit that the prospects of a conventional ground war In Eastern Europe can no longer be ignored.

read more here:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/608...-threat-Army-battle-tanks-Putin-UK

     Wow!
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 143):

God forbid if Russia actually managed to stabilize Syria and bring an end to the refugee crisis by helping Assad to get rid of the religious nutjobs that the west is aiding. No, that can't happen, the west must step in to ensure the chaos will continue for at least next 20 years!

I'm seriously starting to believe that the European capitalist elite wants to extend the refugee crisis to turn currently peaceful and prosperous European welfare states into class societies with tons of low paid workforce for the elite to exploit. Here in Finland we have right wing economic people who don't give a damn about people in general talking about how important it is to take more refugees, how their work is needed despite large unemployment and progress of automation. The only explanation is that they want to overstress our welfare system with tons of refugees to dismantle it.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 141):
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least for a while)"

The units attacked were apparently units of the FSA.

The funny thing about Russia hitting towns without ISIS presence, is that a week ago, there was...

Quote:
A Syrian opposition activist network, the Local Co-ordination Committees, said Russian warplanes hit five towns—Zafaraneh, Rastan, Talbiseh, Makarmia and Ghanto—resulting in the deaths of 36 people, including five children.
None of the areas targeted were controlled by IS, activists said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34399164

Quote:
Beirut (AFP) - The Islamic State jihadist group executed nine men and a boy it accused of being gay in central and northern Syria on Monday, a monitoring group said.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said the jihadists shot dead seven men in Rastan, a town in Homs province of central Syria, "after accusing them of being homosexual".
http://news.yahoo.com/executes-10-pe...g-gay-syria-monitor-204159542.html
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 139):
It seems that the Russians are not targeting IS, but Assad's more secular enemies, which are supported by the West.

Want to know something funny?

Russia is the only player that is playing by the rules in this game. 

As in, the only country acting legally inside Syria. Bashar Al-Assad is the legal head of Syria and he asked for Russian assistance. Everyone other shit disturbing player in that mess is just that - a shit disturber.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 146):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 139):
It seems that the Russians are not targeting IS, but Assad's more secular enemies, which are supported by the West.

Want to know something funny?

Russia is the only player that is playing by the rules in this game.

As in, the only country acting legally inside Syria. Bashar Al-Assad is the legal head of Syria and he asked for Russian assistance. Everyone other shit disturbing player in that mess is just that - a shit disturber.

The selfproclaimed president for life, justwhat your Putin is aspiring to, or maybe the title of Czar of all Russians.
Hitler was ok, as long as he only killed people within Germany, wasn't he? After all the government owns the people and can do with them whatever it likes to do.

Jan

I knew some Syrians refugees years ago who neither liked Assad nor the Islamists.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 147):
The selfproclaimed president for life, justwhat your Putin is aspiring to, or maybe the title of Czar of all Russians.
Hitler was ok, as long as he only killed people within Germany, wasn't he? After all the government owns the people and can do with them whatever it likes to do.

The West doesn't seem to have a problem with Self-proclaimed rulers for life in Saudi Arabia who have a knack for beheading people or bombing hundreds at a wedding and still occupies Bahrain to this day...

Or Pervez Musharraf, or many others over the last few decades.

Such a huge success those "moderates" within Syria.

Quote:
In comments that appeared to shock even many of those involved in Syria policy elsewhere in the government, Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III, the head of the U.S. Central Command, told Congress on Wednesday that only “four or five” trainees from the program, a $500 million plan officially launched in December to prepare as many as 5,400 fighters this year, have ended up “in the fight” inside Syria.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

I'm gonna guess the rest either left the country or joined the jihadist altogether

From the same article.

Quote:
Vetting rules would be eased to allow training for members of groups previously barred from training, according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to describe the changes.

I bet thats a great idea...said no one.

[Edited 2015-09-30 15:57:54]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Russia In Syria

Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 148):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 147):
The selfproclaimed president for life, justwhat your Putin is aspiring to, or maybe the title of Czar of all Russians.
Hitler was ok, as long as he only killed people within Germany, wasn't he? After all the government owns the people and can do with them whatever it likes to do.

The West doesn't seem to have a problem with Self-proclaimed rulers for life in Saudi Arabia who have a knack for beheading people or bombing hundreds at a wedding and still occupies Bahrain to this day...

I think that the Sauds and their ilk are on their way out. The West is getting daily less dependent on Arab Gulf oil, and without this revenue the Sauds will be broke within a few years.The blackmail isn't working anymore. What will happen to Saudi Arabia then is another matter. I suspect a regress to a poor third world country.

Check this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/o...e-the-US-oil-industry-buckles.html

Jan

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