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Okie
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VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:41 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...clean-air-standards/?intcmp=hphz10
Interesting Volkswagen and Auto Union Diesel models detect when they are being tested and turn on environmental control systems for the engine and turn them off during normal use.

When diesels are in normal use the pollutants (NOx) in particular are 40 times over the limits.

So $900M for GM for 100+ deaths from key issues. Toyota $1.2B for sticky throttle. VW (proposed) $18B for polluting.


Okie
 
Arniepie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:47 pm

All the result of completely daft managerial decisions.
Be it not telling about defects, outright lying or tampering with technology to circumvent regulations.
This is not just some accident, or some bad luck but full on fraud.
[edit post]
 
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Tugger
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):
VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA  

Actually there no "proposed" fine of $18B. Based on current maximum penalties per vehicle it is potentially that high but it will never be one that is proposed or applied. I suspect it will be a combination of a significant fine, a big recall, possibly refunds to the consumers etc.

I have been following this since I saw the report on it yesterday (or Thursday?), quite clever and quite wrong. I also suspect that it came from a rather limited group within the automaker charged with "making the engine clean enough for the USA" and they found a shortcut, a cheat, and demonstrated that to everyone without sharing details of the cheat software embedded in the system. But that is beside the point, management knew and somewhere did not report properly and accepted the cheat.

I am curious about many other car makers too, I would not be surprised if they did similar but diesel is a much bigger problem. I also wonder about mileage claims and systems as well. I also would not not be surprised if software has algorithms designed to detect a mileage test and max things out since I have almost never seen the two match.

Regardless VW has a big problem on their hands and will face a lot of scrutiny and fines over this.

Tugg
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threeifbyair
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):
So $900M for GM for 100+ deaths from key issues. Toyota $1.2B for sticky throttle. VW (proposed) $18B for polluting.


Polluting, yes, but also fraud. Customers were deceived. They bought diesel engines that were literally too good to be true. The class-action lawsuits are going to be enormous.

VW will settle for a lot less than $18B, but a multi-billion dollar settlement seems likely. Even a penalty of $3000/engine would be $1.5B. GM got off relatively easy because of its political connections and large number of US jobs, remarkable when you consider how many people died. VW doesn't have the political connections in the US, so it will feel the pain.

I bought a '14 Passat but I went for the gas engine. Couldn't justify the extra $6k to get the TDI. I'm feeling rather fortunate about that today.  
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:59 pm

How many billions are the EPA going to pay for their own messes?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/09/us/colorado-epa-mine-river-spill/

But these fines are ridiculous. The only people who pay for it are the shareholders who had nothing to do with the decision.

Look at the GM deal. $900 million fine for intentionally concealing a design fault which cost the lives of over 100 people. GM's settlement includes a no-prosecution clause for those in management who made the decision. They get away with it (and presumably keep their jobs) and the poor shareholders get the bill. Screw that! Certain people in GM should go to jail! Same with VW if these allegations are true. These fines are punishing the wrong people!
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:03 pm

What is really interesting was the Green Police Auto Union A3-TDI Super Bowl commercial in 2010.
That is one of the models that is under scrutiny.

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 1):
This is not just some accident, or some bad luck but full on fraud

Looking like full on fraud.

The tests are usually done on rollers so either the on board computer was aware that test equipment was hooked to the OBII or detected that the non drive axles were not sending signals for the non drive axles to the ABS.

Okie
 
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pu
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:08 pm

Insofar as Volkswagen is a European company I think it is a bit of a sobering moment for Europeans to realise we do not have our environmental house in order at a sufficient level of perfection to lecture the Americans or anyone else on the matter.

To avoid the lingering scent of hypocrisy the EU itself should impose fines on VW for this behaviour. One of the most frequent complaints is how multi-nationals abuse weak environmental enforcement in certain nations; lets see the EU put its money where its mouth is and punish one of its own for this practice.



Pu.
 
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pvjin
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:15 pm

Ah, I was wondering why VW's diesel engines aren't unreliable rubbish like their petrol engines, perhaps them not being as environmentally friendly and economical as claimed explains it.

Personally I'll make sure to avoid European car manufacturers like plague in the future too. The Japanese do everything better when it comes to reliability.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):
Interesting Volkswagen and Auto Union Diesel models detect when they are being tested and turn on environmental control systems for the engine and turn them off during normal use.

Cool feature. I want one.

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 1):
Be it not telling about defects, outright lying or tampering with technology to circumvent regulations.

It's not tampering if they built the thing.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 2):
I also suspect that it came from a rather limited group within the automaker charged with "making the engine clean enough for the USA" and they found a shortcut, a cheat, and demonstrated that to everyone without sharing details of the cheat software embedded in the system

If you ain't cheating you ain't trying.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
If you ain't cheating you ain't trying.

That reminds me of sayings common among workers in the Soviet Union:

- If you are not stealing from your employer you are stealing from your family.

- You pretend to pay me and I pretend to work
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Cool feature. I want one.

I guess you are going to have to buy an rather older vehicle or a race car.
I think even California is clamping down on some of the old collectables/rebuilds vehicles used on the street.

From what I understand the EPA went after some of the aftermarket chip makers for Diesel pickups even though they were sold with disclaimer as not being street legal.

Okie
 
Arniepie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
But these fines are ridiculous. The only people who pay for it are the shareholders who had nothing to do with the decision.

Look at the GM deal. $900 million fine for intentionally concealing a design fault which cost the lives of over 100 people. GM's settlement includes a no-prosecution clause for those in management who made the decision. They get away with it (and presumably keep their jobs) and the poor shareholders get the bill. Screw that! Certain people in GM should go to jail! Same with VW if these allegations are true. These fines are punishing the wrong people!

Actually there is something to be said about the need for shareholders to bear a big part of the punishment (in the form of lower stock value), they are the owners of the company and should make an effort to be more engaged into the day to day running of the company, if they are just investing money without exercising their voting rights to put the right people in charge or fire the people that damage the company they get what's supposed to be coming to them.
They are not just innocent bystanders.

Eg, in case of the GM management they should immediately fire them and sue them with all means possible, if they (the majority of the shareholders) fail to do so, they pretty much deserve everything what's coming to them, you cannot just invest without taking an interest and than expect the authorities to do the dirty work for you or even expect them to pick up the bill.

That is basically a very fundamental part of the free market.
[edit post]
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 10):
From what I understand the EPA went after some of the aftermarket chip makers for Diesel pickups even though they were sold with disclaimer as not being street legal.

Yes, but that's how backwards the government is.

Roads are filled with potholes, bridges are falling down and GM gets away with murder but the government is worried about protecting Americans from Defenders and having to use their necks.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Flighty
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:38 pm

US passenger car diesels were essentially made illegal by the Big 3. They recognized superior European vehicles would compete uncomfortably. They realized that diesel is ideally suited to American driving habits, of high acceleration, low-speed stop and go driving.

So they made them illegal. By making the EPA standard just a tiny bit harder than Europe's standard, which was the best achievable by today's diesel technology, without copious precious metals and complex urea injection or other efficiency-robbing measures. For years, only VW was "able" to sell light duty diesel vehicles in the US. Nobody else could figure out how to build to meet US emission standards. Now it turns out, that wasn't even true. NOBODY could figure out how to meet the standards and deliver a worthwhile product at acceptable price.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):

US passenger car diesels were essentially made illegal by the Big 3. They recognized superior European vehicles would compete uncomfortably. They realized that diesel is ideally suited to American driving habits, of high acceleration, low-speed stop and go driving.

So they made them illegal. By making the EPA standard just a tiny bit harder than Europe's standard, which was the best achievable by today's diesel technology, without copious precious metals and complex urea injection or other efficiency-robbing measures. For years, only VW was "able" to sell light duty diesel vehicles in the US. Nobody else could figure out how to build to meet US emission standards. Now it turns out, that wasn't even true. NOBODY could figure out how to meet the standards and deliver a worthwhile product at acceptable price.

Nobody buys diesel cars because diesel is more expensive. It doesn't matter what the MPG says. When people drive past the pumps they all see Diesel is more expensive, therefor the first thing in their mind when they see a diesel car is "I don't want to spend that much on fuel."
Pat
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ltbewr
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:43 pm

Perhaps what the USA EPA and other US agencies could do short term is a full suspension of VAG selling any diesel engine vehicles in the USA market including any in dealer lots for the foreseeable future. From there, I suspect some negotiations will take place, no way does VAG have to pay $18B in fines, it would cripple the company.

Most likely, there could be a mandated recall at their expense to do a replacement of all controlling computers and engine components so can meet specifications. If they can't do that, or on certain models, then there could be be a mandated recall to remove entire vehicles, with buyouts at fair market retail values pre-recall, of all existing cars with the illegal engines. The non-compliant engine vehicles would have to have their engines destroyed by placing chemicals in the engine's oil, then the entire cars sent to scrap under strict supervision. The non-compliant vehicles cannot be exported to 3rd world countries per our laws.

As to GM, I suspect the $900M fine will be reduced under pressure of the Congress and Senate so not to ruin GM, and mandating strict recalls of affected cars. Perhaps too some of the decreased fine could be mandated to those injured or estates of those killed/died pre-bankruptcy and cannot get judgments or payments for damages due to bankruptcy laws.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 11):
Actually there is something to be said about the need for shareholders to bear a big part of the punishment (in the form of lower stock value), they are the owners of the company and should make an effort to be more engaged into the day to day running of the company, if they are just investing money without exercising their voting rights to put the right people in charge or fire the people that damage the company they get what's supposed to be coming to them.
They are not just innocent bystanders.

Eg, in case of the GM management they should immediately fire them and sue them with all means possible, if they (the majority of the shareholders) fail to do so, they pretty much deserve everything what's coming to them,

No, that is unfair. Little granny with her shares in GM can't get that involved in that sort of minutia. and even the bigger shareholders have limited power - sure they can fire the CEO, but what if the guilty parties were lower down and the CEO knew nothing about it?

No, a crime was committed (criminal misconduct/negligence/conspiracy), and those people should be named as part of the investigation and settlement. If a no-prosecution clause is accepted, at least allow the names to be published so, as you say, heads can be demanded at the next shareholders' meeting. As it stands, these names are swept under the rug.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
Nobody buys diesel cars because diesel is more expensive. It doesn't matter what the MPG says. When people drive past the pumps they all see Diesel is more expensive, therefor the first thing in their mind when they see a diesel car is "I don't want to spend that much on fuel."

Which is stupid because diesel is cheaper to refine than gasoline, but is taxed more.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
wingman
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:18 pm

If VW gets into real sales trouble maybe I could pick up a 2016 Golf R for half off. That would be awesome.
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
As to GM, I suspect the $900M fine will be reduced under pressure of the Congress and Senate so not to ruin GM, and mandating strict recalls of affected cars. Perhaps too some of the decreased fine could be mandated to those injured or estates of those killed/died pre-bankruptcy and cannot get judgments or payments for damages due to bankruptcy laws
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/g...al-case-ignition-switches-33820260

That was settled this week with no law suits against GM or GM employees as part of the settlement.
I believe most involved with the GM hierarchy have long moved on to other employers already.

Okie
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:32 pm

Diesel trucks in the US can pollute like crazy. And I'm not just talking about big rigs, but also all those pick-ups you like to drive around. The US sends more pollutants in the air than entire continents combined.

I don't especially like diesel cars (even though I drive one every day, my company car) but they have a place, and US approach to car pollution, putting all the incentive on manufacturers, and none on the consumers, is clearly not working.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Which is stupid because diesel is cheaper to refine than gasoline, but is taxed more.

Low sulfur diesel is not really cheaper to make. Well maybe in the US since your basic gas is pretty crappy.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Low sulfur diesel is not really cheaper to make

Correct Indeed.
Refineries have difficulty dealing with high sulfur oil for the cracking processes they use. Two process that are financially viable is dilute the crude with naphtha which is very expensive or dilute with low sulfur crude.
Even Venezuela, awash in oil, has to import oil from Russia to dilute for their domestic production. The catalyst used in the cracking towers is very sensitive to a percentage range of sulfur.
The pollution controls for internal combustion diesel engines in the US are designed for sulfur content of 15ppm or less.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Well maybe in the US since your basic gas is pretty crappy.

We have excellent gasoline, often quoted as designer gasoline for every area of the US and season. We can and do export some gasoline that does not meet EPA requirements by the oil tanker load but cannot export crude.
So the "bad" gets exported but that is a matter of specifications.

Okie
 
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Aaron747
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
GM's settlement includes a no-prosecution clause for those in management who made the decision. They get away with it (and presumably keep their jobs) and the poor shareholders get the bill. Screw that! Certain people in GM should go to jail! Same with VW if these allegations are true. These fines are punishing the wrong people!

Couldn't agree more. No-prosecution clauses are dirty to the core, but a judge still needs to sign off on them. The fraudsters are not the only ones who failed to do the job properly.

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 11):
Actually there is something to be said about the need for shareholders to bear a big part of the punishment (in the form of lower stock value), they are the owners of the company and should make an effort to be more engaged into the day to day running of the company, if they are just investing money without exercising their voting rights to put the right people in charge or fire the people that damage the company they get what's supposed to be coming to them.
They are not just innocent bystanders.

This is ridiculous. Shareholders expect a company will be run in a manner that secures the best return on investment - but that doesn't mean they expect fraud to be the means to that end. They cannot possibly be more involved in the day to day to guard against that, and a company wouldn't run efficiently with constant detailed reporting and Q&A to shareholders. How the hell long would that take anyway? Once per quarter is enough, and a few hit points on corporate planning objectives and financials are sufficient.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
And I'm not just talking about big rigs, but also all those pick-ups you like to drive around.

The overwhelming majority of pickups in the US are gas powered, not diesel.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:13 am

And they still can be gas guzzlers without consequence.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 20):
We have excellent gasoline, often quoted as designer gasoline for every area of the US and season. We can and do export some gasoline that does not meet EPA requirements by the oil tanker load but cannot export crude.
So the "bad" gets exported but that is a matter of specifications.

Well what you call "regular" doesn't seem great to me.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
Well what you call "regular" doesn't seem great to me.

US and Europe calculate it in different ways which makes US fuel look like it has a lower rating but in reality they've got the same rating. US shows the average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and Motor Octane Number (MON) rating, which is the Anti-Knock Index (AKI) while Europe just shows the RON rating which gives a higher number than the MON rating.

More info from wiki:
Motor Octane Number (MON), which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load, as it is determined at 900 rpm engine speed, instead of the 600 rpm for RON.[1] MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON, however there is no direct link between RON and MON. Normally, fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
sccutler
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
And they still can be gas guzzlers without consequence.


Of course there's a consequence. It costs more to operate.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Arniepie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
No, that is unfair. Little granny with her shares in GM can't get that involved in that sort of minutia. and even the bigger shareholders have limited power - sure they can fire the CEO, but what if the guilty parties were lower down and the CEO knew nothing about it?

No, a crime was committed (criminal misconduct/negligence/conspiracy), and those people should be named as part of the investigation and settlement. If a no-prosecution clause is accepted, at least allow the names to be published so, as you say, heads can be demanded at the next shareholders' meeting. As it stands, these names are swept under the rug.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 21):
This is ridiculous. Shareholders expect a company will be run in a manner that secures the best return on investment - but that doesn't mean they expect fraud to be the means to that end. They cannot possibly be more involved in the day to day to guard against that, and a company wouldn't run efficiently with constant detailed reporting and Q&A to shareholders. How the hell long would that take anyway? Once per quarter is enough, and a few hit points on corporate planning objectives and financials are sufficient.

Who do you suppose is having to pick up the check for all this, the public aka state?
The shareholders, be it little old grandma or some institutional investor, are the only ones that have to pick up the check, nobody else.
As far as compensation goes, they should try to get whatever is possible from the perpetrators involved, but nothing out of public resources.
And in your GM example, if the shareholders do nothing themselves to get the losses back from their management and/or vote them away in the next shareholder meeting than nobody else can be expected to do that for them.

As far as the state goes, they have an obligation to stand up for the law and as such the good of the whole society, be it for safety, environmental or financial reasons, the opposing party for them is the company and therefore, by definition the shareholders.
[edit post]
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:32 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
The Japanese do everything better when it comes to reliability.

Not deisels they don't hence Mitsuibishi using VW engines, Nissan Renault diesels and Toyata signed up with BMW for their diesels.

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):
Auto Union

Hasn't been Auto Union hasn't existed since 1985, any only ever existed as a brand on Pre WW2 grand prix cars and a compact car called the Auto Union 1000. Just call is Audi like everyone else.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 26):
Of course there's a consequence. It costs more to operate.

When fuel is as cheap as it is in the US the additional costs to operate what you want to operate opposed to a more efficient vehicle are bugger all.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:59 am

VW will be hung out to dry over this, The US has a track record when it comes to punishing non US companies, look what happened to BP over the oil spill, it was all their fault nothing to do with US sub contractors, and anyone who concocted a compensation story got paid out without question.
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:07 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
The Japanese do everything better when it comes to reliability.

Not deisels they don't hence Mitsuibishi using VW engines, Nissan Renault diesels and Toyata signed up with BMW for their diesels.

There is no market for diesel cars in Japan.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:45 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
They realized that diesel is ideally suited to American driving habits, of high acceleration, low-speed stop and go driving.

Diesel is terrible for low-speed stop and go driving- hybrids are much better in that regard. Diesels are ideally suited for highway cruising.
 
Redd
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 31):
Diesel is terrible for low-speed stop and go driving- hybrids are much better in that regard. Diesels are ideally suited for highway cruising.

How is a Diesel terrible for stop and go? I'd argue they're much better (at least with a manual gearbox) as you don't even need to operate the throttle pedal, the motor has enough torque to just use the clutch, even on inclines.
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 32):
How is a Diesel terrible for stop and go? I'd argue they're much better (at least with a manual gearbox) as you don't even need to operate the throttle pedal, the motor has enough torque to just use the clutch, even on inclines.

Ok, terrible maybe a bad word to use. But it is not much better than gasoline at stop and go driving- that is where hybrids are at their best because they can move along on electric power alone and regenerate when slowing down. Again highway cruising is where diesel's efficiency shines.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:25 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
There is no market for diesel cars in Japan.
Wrong

You better tell that to Mazda, obviously you know something they don't.
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
You better tell that to Mazda, obviously you know something they don't.

Well the article does say that diesel's only make up about 3%, or 79,000, of the cars sold in Japan and that they "once dubbed a health hazard by a former Tokyo governor - have suffered a lingering image problem in Japan". So he is not exactly wrong.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 35):
So he is not exactly wrong.

He's not exactly right either.
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 33):
Ok, terrible maybe a bad word to use. But it is not much better than gasoline at stop and go driving- that is where hybrids are at their best because they can move along on electric power alone and regenerate when slowing down. Again highway cruising is where diesel's efficiency shines.

If you compare two city cars, then diesel is not advantageous, in fact my experience is that it's worse, especially because the clutch is firmer, engine less smooth, etc. I own two 75hp hatchbacks, one a 1.4 petrol, the other a 1.5 turbodiesel. The diesel has more torque, more useable power, however when you're too low in rpms, you have literally nothing, at first I used to think I had stalled ! You always need to change gears which is annoying when you're not going fast on board a sports car.

If you compare two big cars, then the gas car will suck as much as twice more than the same car with a diesel engine, in city conditions. In highway conditions they're much closer, with still an advantage for the diesel, but only worth it if you drive a good amount per year.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
He's not exactly right either.

You don't develop a world class engine to sell a few thousands in your home market.
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):
the other a 1.5 turbodiesel. The diesel has more torque, more useable power, however when you're too low in rpms, you have literally nothing, at first I used to think I had stalled ! You always need to change gears which is annoying when you're not going fast on board a sports car.

There is also a sweetspot for diesel engines which function great in the city and on the highway and I think that's 1.9-2.0L. I have a 1.9TDI and don't experience any of the low power problems you've outlined and it's super efficient. It's my first diesel and my next car will be a diesel as well...

1200km per tank highway and that's not driving at an economical speed, 140-150km/h, quiet & comfortable. Very good driving experience.
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The only people who pay for it are the shareholders who had nothing to do with the decision.

Simple capitalism: the shareholders OWN THE COMPANY! So, while they had nothing to do with the decision, yes, they take the hit, just like they took the gain of selling cars that appeared to not pollute while they actually did.
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:05 pm

There is no doubt the Shareholders will not be happy with the hit on VAG's stock value with these possible fines and costs to fix have done. Some key shareholders, which with VAG also includes the state government in Germany where based an will demand some heads roll, all the way up to the CEO.
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The only people who pay for it are the shareholders who had nothing to do with the decision.

Simple capitalism: the shareholders OWN THE COMPANY! So, while they had nothing to do with the decision, yes, they take the hit, just like they took the gain of selling cars that appeared to not pollute while they actually did.

Exactly. Shareholders don't like executive decisions? Start putting pressure on the board...
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):

My thought is this. Diesel makes its power down low. They are slower accelerating than gas engines but only if you rev the gas motor above 4000. Which I seldom do. So at equivalent revs, a diesel is as fast or faster. So real world, it performs better than specs indicate. Meanwhile, under stress ( acceleration or towing, or pulling a heavy big car) diesel fuel burn is also much better than gas. This is proved out by today's large German luxury sedans.

Gasoline is making progress too. But GM was quoted around 2010 saying they "never" anticipate building diesel cars in the US. It was too perfect. They lobbied EPA to shut that market down and EPA loves low pollution quotas, so they agreed. Meanwhile nobody seems able to engineer any, save 1-2 vanity projects from BMW and Mercedes, which sell maybe 1000 cars per year. I'd have to assume the Audi and VWs are non compliant.
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:31 pm

Absolutely stupid affair. How can the no.1 car manufacturer worldwide be so damn foolish? At the moment it looks like as if its been done by VW of America, not by the headquarter, to turn down prejudices and raise the acceptance of the Diesel in the US. Lets wait and see what is true. In front of the court it wont matter.

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):
VW (proposed) $18B for polluting.

Thats of course the extreme possible. The typical ridiculous US numbers which have no relation with the "crime" committed (someone stepped on my foot, thats a million bucks please!) Experts say, a few hundred million, or a bit more than a billion. That seems like a realistic and correct penalty to me.
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting na (Reply 43):
Quoting Okie (Thread starter):VW (proposed) $18B for polluting. Thats of course the extreme possible. The typical ridiculous US numbers which have no relation with the "crime" committed (someone stepped on my foot, thats a million bucks please!) Experts say, a few hundred million, or a bit more than a billion. That seems like a realistic and correct penalty to me.

The disparity was the point I was making in the OP. I chose to leave it open for discussion.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Quoting Okie (Thread starter):Auto Union Hasn't been Auto Union hasn't existed since 1985, any only ever existed as a brand on Pre WW2 grand prix cars and a compact car called the Auto Union 1000. Just call is Audi like everyone else.

I have not warmed up to the idea of calling Chrysler and Jeep products Fiat's either.
Then a Lexus is a Camry with plastic wood in the interior.   

I am wondering what is going to happen with states that require vehicle emission stickers/tests.
Obviously the vehicle knows it is being tested so how would the test stations know?
So who is actually going to return their vehicle for a recall?
Will the EPA somehow force the vehicle owners to have their emission system reprogramed?
Lots of questions for sure.

Okie
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):
So $900M for GM for 100+ deaths from key issues. Toyota $1.2B for sticky throttle. VW (proposed) $18B for polluting.

Well, leaving Toyota aside (which did nothing wrong other than not being politically connected enough to avoid government extortion), GM did kill hundreds of people (at a time when they were owned by the Government) but Volkswagen did something far worse as far as the government is concerned - they highlighted the government's abject incompetence, and that has serious consequences. The government designed a random, arbitrary test so Volkswagen built a vehicle that passed that arbitrary test. What they did was probably not illegal (how many of us have studied for a standardized test only to forget everything as soon as we walked out of the room?) but they out-smarted government bureaucrats, and that has serious consequences - the reason many of them ended up in government in the first place was because they weren't smart enough to land a job anywhere else. I would be shocked if the fine Volkswagen ends up having to pay is smaller than GM's, even though what they did pales in comparison, just because the kind of people running government these days is a vindictive bunch.

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 1):
Be it not telling about defects, outright lying or tampering with technology to circumvent regulations.
This is not just some accident, or some bad luck but full on fraud.

How is building a car that meets every government testing requirement circumventing regulations? Arbitrary standardized tests always lead to consequences and create product distortions.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 2):
I also wonder about mileage claims and systems as well. I also would not not be surprised if software has algorithms designed to detect a mileage test and max things out since I have almost never seen the two match.

The reason EPA-rated fuel mileages never match real world fuel consumption numbers is because the EPA tests are arbitrary and designed to favor certain types of vehicles over others. That is why gasoline cars rarely ever reach the EPA numbers in real life while Diesel cars often beat them by a comfortable margin. Also the same reason why manual gearboxes are disappearing from the line-up - in the standardized tests you are supposed to shift a manual gearbox like an absolute moron so EPA numbers for manual cars often now are lower than the auto ones, despite the inherent performance efficiency of a manual if you know how to use it.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 3):
VW doesn't have the political connections in the US, so it will feel the pain.

The workforce of VW's main U.S. plant, in Chattanooga, isn't even unionized - despite a years-long campaign effort by the UAW (in what they described as their most strategic campaign) and VW itself (under pressure from its German unions) the good workers of Tennessee said no. I would expect at the very least to have the UAW take over Chattanooga despite the worker's wishes to make this go away.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
How many billions are the EPA going to pay for their own messes?

Government employees are never held accountable for their abuses, let alone their incompetence.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Look at the GM deal. $900 million fine for intentionally concealing a design fault which cost the lives of over 100 people. GM's settlement includes a no-prosecution clause for those in management who made the decision. They get away with it (and presumably keep their jobs) and the poor shareholders get the bill. Screw that!

You forgot the main thing - GM was owned by the government when this was going on. The IPO-ed the company and sold their position down in further public equity offerings while knowing this was going on, so if the same laws that apply to everyone else were to apply to government someone in Washington should be doing the perp walk because of securities fraud, but of course they don't. The level of cynicism of government by fining the people they sold shares in the company to for things that happened during their watch is just mind-boggling.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
US passenger car diesels were essentially made illegal by the Big 3. They recognized superior European vehicles would compete uncomfortably. They realized that diesel is ideally suited to American driving habits, of high acceleration, low-speed stop and go driving.

Basically this. Really incredible how U.S. people are not able to benefit from the huge advances and tens of billions of dollars invested in diesel technology over the past decade and a half.
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
Simple capitalism: the shareholders OWN THE COMPANY! So, while they had nothing to do with the decision, yes, they take the hit, just like they took the gain of selling cars that appeared to not pollute while they actually did.

The stockholders owe the families of the victims that lost their lives. But the punishment itself should be borne by the people who made the decisions, who should personally pay an appropriate price - including prison.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 45):
You forgot the main thing - GM was owned by the government when this was going on. The IPO-ed the company and sold their position down in further public equity offerings while knowing this was going on, so if the same laws that apply to everyone else were to apply to government someone in Washington should be doing the perp walk because of securities fraud, but of course they don't. The level of cynicism of government by fining the people they sold shares in the company to for things that happened during their watch is just mind-boggling.

Don't get me started... My grandmother, who is now 97 year old and living on the investments left to her by my grandfather (there is now pretty much nothing left - the rest of the family is now paying) lost $50,000 on AAA-rated GM bonds, which the government decreed were suddenly worthless - good only to wipe your butt with. That was pure theft.
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
But these fines are ridiculous. The only people who pay for it are the shareholders who had nothing to do with the decision.

Actually it is going to hit the executives in the company who get multi-million bonuses I'm not crying for them because of their years of lying and their covering up the problem.

Any hit by the shareholders may result in changes in the Executive Suite or the Board - both of whom should have been protecting the shareholders from illegal activity like this.

Now let's see just how many people who "were in the know" are actually fired. That is what the shareholders deserve to see.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Look at the GM deal. $900 million fine for intentionally concealing a design fault which cost the lives of over 100 people. GM's settlement includes a no-prosecution clause for those in management who made the decision. They get away with it (and presumably keep their jobs) and the poor shareholders get the bill. Screw that! Certain people in GM should go to jail! Same with VW if these allegations are true. These fines are punishing the wrong people!

There is still the opportunity for tort actions by customers who were damaged by that illegal activity.

And, again, let's see how many GM engineers and execs are actually fired.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
It's not tampering if they built the thing.

It was designed to create an illegal result on emission testing, basically fraud. Engineers at VW deliberately designed an illegal workaround. It's stupid to try to make any excuse for those engineers, or their managers who agreed to that fraud.

I also have to say that your comment, as an aeronautical engineer, concerns me. You & your company working hard to find a way to cheat the system? Sure adds confidence in flying in your products the future.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
Yes, but that's how backwards the government is.

Shows how backwards that chipmaker is sending a chip to market that has the potential (or specific design) to cheat the system.

As for all those infrastructure needs, first close some billionaire loopholes and you have the money to increase infrastructure. Then eliminate sequestration and kick out the Tea Party politicians that won't vote for increase spending on infrastructure. Spend the money and you can improve infrastructure. The only thing backwards about that are the ones cutting tax revenues and spending on infrastructure.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
From there, I suspect some negotiations will take place, no way does VAG have to pay $18B in fines, it would cripple the company.

VAG needs to move incredibly fast to come to agreements with the government(s) so they can get this horrible PR phuck-up behind them. If they let their lawyers drag out clearing this up it will only cost them more money in lost customers. The longer this drags out the more VW will be hurt.

And the company needs to fix their web site:

Quote:

Long range without sacrifice is the promise of TDI Clean Diesel. 1 And Volkswagen has sold more diesel cars in the U.S. than every other brand combined. 2 Promise kept.
http://www.vw.com/features/clean-diesel/

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
As to GM, I suspect the $900M fine will be reduced under pressure of the Congress and Senate so not to ruin GM, and mandating strict recalls of affected cars.



No way.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
No, that is unfair. Little granny with her shares in GM can't get that involved in that sort of minutia. and even the bigger shareholders have limited power - sure they can fire the CEO, but what if the guilty parties were lower down and the CEO knew nothing about it?

Don't worry about granny, If the reduction in her dividend is material it will mean that she has millions invested in GM shares.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Which is stupid because diesel is cheaper to refine than gasoline, but is taxed more.

Diesel will always have a higher tax because governors understand that it hits interstate big rigs the most. They drive through the state, buy fuel with all those tax dollars and then they keep driving - without voting. That is who you want to suck tax dollars from, it posible

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 29):

VW will be hung out to dry over this,

And they deserved to be.

Punishment in situations like this will the two fold - first to punish the company for their illegal actions and secondly to set an examples for others in the industry. Like the GM fraud this one will not be cheap for VW in terms of government punishment AND the long line of lawsuits from customers. How many customers are impacted by VW's fraud?
 
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:15 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
It was designed to create an illegal result on emission testing, basically fraud. Engineers at VW deliberately designed an illegal workaround. It's stupid to try to make any excuse for those engineers, or their managers who agreed to that fraud.

I just said it's not tampering if you designed it that way. Tampering is something you do to something someone else designed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
As for all those infrastructure needs, first close some billionaire loopholes and you have the money to increase infrastructure.

You can't just throw more money into the same dysfunctional pit. Cut all the crap the government has no business doing and then we can talk about adding more to the pot if it's really necessary to do things the government actually needs to do. Right now the government has trouble doing the necessary things because of money wasted on crap like this.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
Diesel will always have a higher tax because governors understand that it hits interstate big rigs the most.

Fuel taxes are a huge scam perpetrated against American motorists. Higher tax on diesel doesn't come close to covering costs.
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:37 am

Apparently from news reports, VAG has gone into Public Relations code red. The CEO has already announced seeking an outside audit and review of what and how it happened and why for so long. Clearly some very unethical actions occurred and anyone who allowed or caused it to happen - in Germany, the USA or elsewhere and be fired in accordance with local laws.
Apparently new models with the diesels have met current specs and unlike previous models, use DEF/Urea injection systems, so my thought of suspension of VW/Audi diesel sales won't happen. By the way, such problems with diesel vehicles not meeting in real life EPA standards with heavy trucks and major recalls had to occur.
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